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Frosty
2008-02-12, 05:47 PM
Amongst humans, alignment seems to be more cultural since Humans are neutral on average. But what about races that are usually Good or usually chatoic Evil or something? Are they born with their alignment? Or are they born neutral and because of their upbringing they turn evil/good? My group and I were debating how to roleplay a conversion of alignment for certain creatures.

If alignment is not inborn, then why would a Succubus Paladin retain her [Evil] subtype after converting to good? Why does she get screwed by Smite Evil, Good, Chaos, and Law?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-12, 05:50 PM
A subtype doesn't just represent an inborn predilection towards a specific alignment but also a physical embodiment of such. One can change one's morals, but it is more difficult to change one's lineage and form.

Sonar009
2008-02-12, 05:52 PM
Well, I would imagine that it was raised to be evil/chaotic/ect, not born that way. Also, to quote from my PHB(emphasis mine):

"Humans tend toward no particular alignment, not even neutrality. The best and the worst are found among them"

Just saying. I don't know about your world however.

Frosty
2008-02-12, 05:53 PM
If a succubus is supposed to be a physical embodiment of evil, how can she continue to exist if she acts as a force of good? Clearly she doesn't embody evil anymore.

Serpent
2008-02-12, 05:54 PM
Do we really need two of these threads?

Swordguy
2008-02-12, 05:57 PM
Do we really need two of these threads?

Yes. You can never beat a discussion to death enough times.

Clearly the fact that people are going to view an inherently subjective topic differently and never agree with each other deserves to be done over and over again. Cause, y'know, these are discussion forums.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-12, 06:01 PM
If a succubus is supposed to be a physical embodiment of evil, how can she continue to exist if she acts as a force of good? Clearly she doesn't embody evil anymore.

Her FORM is evil, not her mind. Demons, devils, &c are, by merely existing, bringing evil into the world. One specific such demon/devil/what have you can change their morals and become something other than evil, but their mere existence still taints the "moral area" surrounding them. A succubus paladin can do good things, but they are still a force of evil in the world.

Frosty
2008-02-12, 06:04 PM
A succubus paladin can do good things, but they are still a force of evil in the world.

*Brain ex-splortches by dichotomy*

Seriously...I understand what you're saying, but it makes no sense in any game world I want to be a part of. I mean...HOW are they bringing evil by merely existing? should she just kill herself instead? Maybe get Reincarnated...

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-12, 06:06 PM
A subtype doesn't just represent an inborn predilection towards a specific alignment but also a physical embodiment of such. One can change one's morals, but it is more difficult to change one's lineage and form.

Although ironically she can change her lineage and form trivially by using her at-will Polymorph ability. She can, in fact, gain the "Good" subtype by changing into a good outsider.

Fhaolan
2008-02-12, 06:20 PM
It varies by campaign, so much that there can't be a blanket statement that covers everything.

For example, in my campaign Succubi are demons. Demons, like most 'outsiders' are not living creatures, as such. They are constructed by deities as pure incarnations of specific concepts. As such, their alignment, their personalities, everything about them is pretty much fixed at the time of their creation. The nature of a specific succubus might change over time to alter it's alignment, but it it will likely change other aspects of it's nature as well, so technically it wouldn't be a succubus anymore.

On the counter, also in my campaign, Orcs are living creatures. The Orc culture is Chaotic Evil, and there are biological-like impulses in them that steer them in that direction. It is possible for an Orc to be Lawful Good, but it is *harder* for them to be this way than a Human, due to those biological-like impulses. (I'm using the term biological-like, as biology, physics, and chemistry doesn't work in my campaign in the same way as they do in RL, and I don't want to go all the way down that discussion here. It'll take too long.)

In living creatures, like Orcs, how strong those biological-like impulses are determines whether they can be called 'usually x' versus 'sometimes x' versues 'always x'.

Frosty
2008-02-12, 06:33 PM
For example, in my campaign Succubi are demons. Demons, like most 'outsiders' are not living creatures, as such. They are constructed by deities as pure incarnations of specific concepts. As such, their alignment, their personalities, everything about them is pretty much fixed at the time of their creation. The nature of a specific succubus might change over time to alter it's alignment, but it it will likely change other aspects of it's nature as well, so technically it wouldn't be a succubus anymore.

So you don't go by the standard: "This creature in front of you detects as Evil, Good, Lawful, and Chaos at the same time!" thing?

The_Snark
2008-02-12, 06:50 PM
Although ironically she can change her lineage and form trivially by using her at-will Polymorph ability. She can, in fact, gain the "Good" subtype by changing into a good outsider.

The errata'd succubus has Change Shape (limited to humanoids) rather than Polymorph, and even when they had Polymorph they could only use it to take humanoid shapes...

The way I see it, alignment is not inborn; races that are usually evil are listed that way because their standard culture has evil tendencies. Races listed as always of an alignment are usually subtyped outsiders, undead, or some other such creature with a good reason for it.*

In the case of, say, demons, they are formed from chaos and malevolence. They have free will, so they can change later, but they're still composed of the essence of chaos and evil... though some DMs would change the subtypes to match alignment, just like fallen angels usually get the Evil subtype rather than keeping the Good type. In that case, the ideas and concepts they're composed of would have changed to match whatever the succubus's new ideals were.

*Except dragons, which for some reason are listed as always of a particular alignment despite being mostly solitary. Ugh. I usually go by the Ebberon method of throwing that convention out the window.

Fhaolan
2008-02-12, 06:55 PM
So you don't go by the standard: "This creature in front of you detects as Evil, Good, Lawful, and Chaos at the same time!" thing?

Correct, but that's due to the specifics of my campaign. If a succubus changes to Lawful Good, then the essential nature of that succubus has changed to the point that it is no longer a succubus, but is a completely different creature. Outsiders like Demons, Devils, Elementals, etc. are very... naive in a way, in my campaign. Their hearts are worn on their sleeve. They are *pure*. They are not flesh and bone, but made of the elemental stuff of their nature. It is very difficult, to the point of almost impossible, for them to change. They can change alignment, but it takes a massive change of their fundamental nature.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-13, 12:17 AM
Her FORM is evil, not her mind. Demons, devils, &c are, by merely existing, bringing evil into the world. One specific such demon/devil/what have you can change their morals and become something other than evil, but their mere existence still taints the "moral area" surrounding them. A succubus paladin can do good things, but they are still a force of evil in the world.
What exactly do you mean by "evil" in this context?

crimson77
2008-02-13, 12:38 AM
Amongst humans, alignment seems to be more cultural since Humans are neutral on average. But what about races that are usually Good or usually chatoic Evil or something? Are they born with their alignment? Or are they born neutral and because of their upbringing they turn evil/good? My group and I were debating how to roleplay a conversion of alignment for certain creatures.

If alignment is not inborn, then why would a Succubus Paladin retain her [Evil] subtype after converting to good? Why does she get screwed by Smite Evil, Good, Chaos, and Law?

I would say, from a psychological standpoint, an individuals alignment could be considered a part of an individuals personality, which has both genetic and environmental factors. I do not think that you can say that one has more of an impact on a group (or culture) or individually (on one person). Therefore, like most things in psychology, tell your group that it is both.

My suggestion would be to only allow her to be smited by her alignment.

TheOOB
2008-02-13, 01:19 AM
A creature with an alignment subtype will always count as that alignment for the purposes of spells and abilities, regardless of their actual alignment. If a spell or effect has multiple effects on different alignments, they typically get which ever one is worst out of their alignments. Alignment subtypes are racial disadvantages, not advantages(well, in the vast majority of cases).

That means, no matter how good your succubus paladin gets, she will always take full damage from a holy smite or smite evil, she'll also take full damage from an unholy blight or smite good, it's one of the hurdles you must face to defy the very nature encoded into your being.

Remember one key fact, alignment is not a subjective trait, it's an objective fact. Outsiders have no separate soul like most other creatures, their soul and their body are one. A human's body contains no alignment, so as their soul changes alignment, so to does what magic effects them. Many creatures have tendencies for alignments, some of which are very strong(like a mind flayers tendency twords evil), but if they can change their souls, their alignment will full change.

The succubus, however, is a demon, a creature of the abyss, who's body and soul are created with the force of pure evil. Their souls, and thus bodies are born with the taint of evil, and even if they can change the base of their soul to good, their body will remain tainted by evil. The multi verse will always see a creature of the abyss as evil, and they will always have to fight both the perceptions of others, and their own inborn drive to commit evil.

Now, it is possible, that there could be some high level spell or artifact that will completely remove the evil from a demon, and that would turn them into a fundamentally different creature, much like how some demons where once fallen angels who have lost all of their celestial orgins.

horseboy
2008-02-13, 01:31 AM
I'm just going to chime in with an "alignment is stupid" argument. Take your pick which every one.

Serpentine
2008-02-13, 08:58 AM
My post in the other thread I think fits as well, or better, here, so I'm just gonna throw in the whole lot.

I'd have to go look through all the monster manuals to be sure, but I believe "Always Evil" is reserved for those creatures that are completely, irrecovibly (wow, I butchered that word. Go me) Evil, the ones by whose very existance they increase the amount of pure Evil in the world, the ones who embody that very alignment - fiends, for example. "Usually Evil" creatures, on the other hand, may be innately inclined to be Evil, resulting in Evil societies, which then reinforce Evil in their offspring, raising Evil adults, which enforce their Evil societies, and so on. There may be some Good groups, but such groups would be likely to be rare and unstable due to their innate tendencies to violence, sadism, greed or whatever. Individuals may be Good through positive influence teaching them to restrain their natural tendency. Eh, it works okay for me.

Would this be an okay place for me to bring up my own issues with "Always Evil"? Goff, don't read this.
I'm going to throw a vampire NPC in my game. The party has been entrusted with delivering something to him to keep it safe, and he's going to be rather powerful, so I'm not exactly wanting them to attack him. Anyway, he's going to be noble, in several senses of the word, considering the people in his village to be his charges and his responsibility. He will suck their blood, but it will be more of a job that the young are expected to do for him (like serfs tilling the field, sort of thing). He treats his people well, protects them from danger, is kind to them - I'm thinking that if anyone is really freaked out by the idea of having him suck their throats, he'll make other arrangements or simply give them other duties. On the other hand, he's a vampire. His very existence is Evil. It could easily be argued that if he were to be anything but Evil, he should end his existence (of course, it could then be counter-argued that if he did that then his people would be left to the other vampires and werewolves that infest that country, but that's beside the point). So. Vampires are undead and undead are Always Evil. Aside from (or in addition to, or something) him being a unique creature - a possibility allowed for in the rules - can an undead creature be non-Evil (this particular fellow is likely to be Lawful Neutral) through acts alone?
Continuing from this line of thought, I've been pondering its significance to the Alignment spells. I've heard people say that they hate them and get rid of them or whatever. I don't want to ban them, but we're relatively free with our alignments - or at least the definitions of them. I was thinking, could they, perhaps, just detect those creatures that totally embody that alignment or have it though their mere existence, and/or those creatures who are completely and utterly immersed in it? That is, an unusually selfish person who likes tying tin cans to cats' tails and imagines their neighbours dying in gruesome ways wouldn't be effected by them, but a fiend or a devoted cleric of an evil god would. Does that sound reasonable?Sorry if that stuff doesn't fit so well here...So... lets see. The first part suggests that "Usually [Alignment]" creatures are innately - or genetically, or whatever - inclined to the characteristics of that alignment, but such tendencies can be altered through different upbringing. So, Nature tempered by Nurture.
For "Always [Alignment]" it really depends whether you think the last bit of my post works. If so, then even an Evil creature that does only Good deeds would remain "physically" tainted by Evil, while still being, strictly speaking, Good. A demon's entire being is fundamentally tied to a plane of pure Evil. Can it, then, change its alignment, and if so does this have a physical effect on it? That, I think, depends on the world in which you play.
The OP's example is a tough one. At first I was inclined to say that only spells that target Evil and Chaos - the alignments of her very matter - would effect her, but then I realised that in my own example I suggested that a "devoted cleric" would be effected by alignment spells - if a cleric, no reason why not a paladin. I suppose you could say that they each cancel out the other, causing the succubus to show up as "neutral" on any Detect Alignment spell...

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 10:15 AM
I'm just going to chime in with an "alignment is stupid" argument. Take your pick which every one.

For what it's worth I don't think Alignment is stupid, I think you can do some good things with it. I just think that you have to bite the bullet and realise that it's not about literal morality.

Telonius
2008-02-13, 11:13 AM
All devils and demons are made by Evil, Incorporated, at their Evil Factory in Eviltown. Their main ingredients are concentrated Evil juice (harvested by slaves), the blood of innocent babies, and a dash of puppy-kicking for flavor.

This year, orders came down from the CEO that they would be changing the formula slightly, and adding Free Will. (And you don't argue with this CEO - when he fires you, he really fires you). Succubi are one of the models to get this. So, while the Quality Control procedures ensure that all devils and demons coming out of Evil, Inc.'s factory are at least 99.44% Evil, the Lifetime Guarantee on continued Evil promotion was not extended for the Free Will series.

Frosty
2008-02-13, 12:28 PM
So we have two different views here. One camp says that if Succubus changes alignment to good, her very essense is warped so much she is no longer physically a demon, and may be some sort of celestial version of what she used to be. The other camp says that even if her outlook changes to Good, her essense, and her very physical embodiment is still irrevocably Evil, and it makes sense that way.

If the second camp is right, then wouldn't most Succubi kill themselves over not being able to reconcile this dichotomy within themselves? I know I'd need psychological help if I thought my very being will always be evil, that my alignment is determined for me despite my free will.

I guess what it boils down to is this: If something has Free Will, then it, by definition, can't be "Always Good/Evil" because there is always a chance it can change its mind. There are very few absolutes in the world. So, if, in our example, demons do not have free will, then their fate is already decided for them and all of them will be irrevocably Evil.

Telonius
2008-02-13, 12:53 PM
A complete answer to that would necessarily involve real-world religions (that is, not allowed on the boards).

In D&D terms, there is a way out of it. There are various energy types. Most of them have no morality attached to them. Fire and Sonic are not good or bad in themselves. But there's also Good and Evil energy, Good and Evil planes, and spells with the [Good] and [Evil] descriptors. There are also moral decisions and actions that can influence a character's alignment. Each of these things can cause an evil aura, detectable by a spell.

Now, the problem with this is that the "Detect (alignment)" spells aren't fine-tuned enough to determine the source of the evil auras. For example, an Evil Creature who is also a cleric of an Evil Deity would produce an effect that overlapped the same location - the creature. Additionally, if the spell ends before the third round, the caster can't even tell where the aura was centered (i.e. Miko not knowing that Roy's evil aura came from the crown).

This isn't necessarily a problem, whichever way you rule it. If you want the matter to remain evil, fine. While the matter that makes up the creature's body might always register as evil - it was, after all, assembled at the Evil factory - the creature might also register a Good aura, if anybody bothered to ignore the horns and scales, and check it out. You'd still be affected by anything that affects Evil matter. You wouldn't necessarily need counseling; it's just the body that your conscience is stuck with. I think this is pretty self-consistent.

If you rule that becoming Good changes the nature of the body, that's also self-consistent.

Either way, I'd require, at the very least, an Atonement spell and possibly a Geas/Quest spell (required by the Cleric before they cast Atonement) before the character could be considered Good-aligned, either in mind or body.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-13, 01:11 PM
Now, it is possible, that there could be some high level spell or artifact that will completely remove the evil from a demon, and that would turn them into a fundamentally different creature, much like how some demons where once fallen angels who have lost all of their celestial orgins.Helm of Opposite Alignment. That would be the easiest way of making something whose very nature is evil become good.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-13, 01:12 PM
So we have two different views here. One camp says that if Succubus changes alignment to good, her very essense is warped so much she is no longer physically a demon, and may be some sort of celestial version of what she used to be. The other camp says that even if her outlook changes to Good, her essense, and her very physical embodiment is still irrevocably Evil, and it makes sense that way.

If the second camp is right, then wouldn't most Succubi kill themselves over not being able to reconcile this dichotomy within themselves? I know I'd need psychological help if I thought my very being will always be evil, that my alignment is determined for me despite my free will.

You'd be seriously messed up, but some of us find the idea kind of interesting. Certainly I think "I'm a member of [evil race X] - my very blood calls me towards evil, but I strive to fight against it" is a lot more interesting than "I'm a member of [evil race X] but I'm totally Good for no clear reason!"


I guess what it boils down to is this: If something has Free Will, then it, by definition, can't be "Always Good/Evil" because there is always a chance it can change its mind. There are very few absolutes in the world. So, if, in our example, demons do not have free will, then their fate is already decided for them and all of them will be irrevocably Evil.

It depends on how you run the metaphysics. Look at it as like the One Ring. Everybody in Middle Earth has free will, but nobody can carry the One Ring for long without it corrupting them on some level. That doesn't deny their free will, it's just that the overwhelming power of it can overcome pretty much anybody.

To put it another way, it's like torture. With enough torture, drugs, and indoctrination you can make pretty much anybody say or do pretty much anything. That doesn't mean that they don't have free will, it just means that free will only goes so far.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 01:17 PM
What exactly do you mean by "evil" in this context?

The very concept (and therefore, any embodiment of such) of a succubus, for instance, is an evil idea.

Of course, what follows from this is that if a succubus ceases being evil, they cease being a succubus since they are no longer acting like one.

Frosty
2008-02-13, 01:26 PM
The very concept (and therefore, any embodiment of such) of a succubus, for instance, is an evil idea.

Of course, what follows from this is that if a succubus ceases being evil, they cease being a succubus since they are no longer acting like one.

Yet she still has Evil subtype, get Smote by Smite Evil, etc...so obviously *some* part of the Succubus is still there. Unless you're saying we should houserule that away?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 01:43 PM
Yet she still has Evil subtype, get Smote by Smite Evil, etc...so obviously *some* part of the Succubus is still there. Unless you're saying we should houserule that away?

No, part of the succubus is still there: she still has her body tied to her soul as all outsiders do. Her form is evil even if her actions and intentions are not...which would be why, if she were to mindswitch with someone, she wouldn't have the Evil subtype anymore.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-13, 04:58 PM
Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are unique or rare exceptions.

Problem solved?

Subotei
2008-02-13, 06:01 PM
Amongst humans, alignment seems to be more cultural since Humans are neutral on average. But what about races that are usually Good or usually chatoic Evil or something? Are they born with their alignment? Or are they born neutral and because of their upbringing they turn evil/good? My group and I were debating how to roleplay a conversion of alignment for certain creatures.

If alignment is not inborn, then why would a Succubus Paladin retain her [Evil] subtype after converting to good? Why does she get screwed by Smite Evil, Good, Chaos, and Law?

If a lion meets a baby lamb it would most probably eat it. That doesn't make the lion evil, it makes it a lion. You make it evil by calling eating the lamb an evil act - its a judgement thing. So if a Succubus is (in your judgement) good, it can't be evil, so therefore the rules are wrong.

EvilElitest
2008-02-13, 06:17 PM
With most creatures aligment is cultural, with the exception of mindless or Always X creatures. Any being that has "always" in their aligment except maybe Dragons is literally a being of that aligment, Demons are embodyments of CE for example
from
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Devils_Advocate
2008-02-17, 02:19 PM
The very concept (and therefore, any embodiment of such) of a succubus, for instance, is an evil idea.
1. That does not, of course, answer my question.

2. So just thinking about succubi is evil?


Her form is evil even if her actions and intentions are not...
Due to innate shapeshifting ability, succubi don't even have fixed forms.

I still challenge you -- or anybody -- to actually provide any definition of the word "evil" that (a) has anything to do with what "evil" normally means, in real life or the alignment section of the PHB, and (b) applies to a Good-aligned succubus's form, body, soul, or whatever.

I consider Evil to necessarily include doing some sort of harm to someone, though in the very broad sense of any sort of detriment (not just physical injury or pain). So I'd say that if a Good succubus doesn't actually hurt anyone, she's not actually Evil in any way. She's still treated as Evil for the purpose of magical effects, but that's not the same thing at all.

Narmoth
2008-02-17, 05:23 PM
The way I play DM evil is that it's an action. An action, not the intent is evil. Therefore, paladins can detect one that has resently committed several evil actions, but not one who walks around thinking about burning down the orphanage.
Planning actions count as an action for me, so if he was planning to burn down the orphanage (concrete actions planned out) he could be detected.
If I also allow all the NPCs with inteligence 1 or higher to have free will, then if they are good or evil isn't dependent on their race. The aligment stated for the race is how they usually behave, and what is perceived as evil is defined from my own morale. For example, drow don't view their backstabbing as evil. But from the dm / players point of morale, it is perceived as evil, and therefore they are as a race evil aligned.
The same goes for demons. They have a community morale that are by our standards evil. Still, they are free to act as they wish, and good succubi are incredibly sexy

SadisticFishing
2008-02-17, 05:25 PM
The clear and correct (by regular rules) answer is that no, alignment comes from upbringing, except in special cases (outsiders, dragons, etc...). There may be little nudges of some sort, for example, orcs are dumb, and the same thing that makes them dumb and barbaric probably often makes them cruel, but there can be a LG orc. There cannot be a LG Demon without a LOT of reason behind it.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-17, 05:50 PM
The Nature vs. Nurture debate has been going on for at least 60 years (well before DND was created). Do you really think you guys are adding anything to the debate?

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 06:21 PM
1. A Succubus is a creature that is born from an evil soul out of primordial substance of physical evil (The matter of the Abyss). That substance is made from the evil deeds and chaos of countless actions. The Succubus is a being that has potentially also spent X1000 years in an environment of monstrous horror and torture of the likes of no one could imagine by being a Mane then working her way up to what she is presently.

Plus, her form innately gives her an instinctual desire to massive amounts of sex but also the urge to suck the life out of living beings.

2. Undead are likewise infused with the basic stuff of the essence of Entropy. They desire to destroy the Living even when they're otherwise benevolent beings because they're linked with the incarnation of death itself.

3. Orcs are carnivores with genetic hair-trigger tempers and monstrous appetites. It's a lot easier for Orcs to overcome that (taking up Ranching for example and Anger Management courses) than it is for the above two.

That simplify matters?

Evil in D&D is like the Dark Side of the Force. It's a universal constant in reality like Electricity and your thoughts and feelings shape it just as much as your hand moves around the world about you. Thus, demons and devils as spiritual beings can be MADE from evil.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-17, 06:23 PM
I believe the camp that says "A demon/devil wil Always bring evil to the world even if it's good" is wrong, for a simple reason. If that was true, every time you create a good demon or devil, you'd get a polymorphed Drizzt clone.

Funny no one ever thinks of the Yugoloths. But then again, they started the blood war, they can't BE anything else other than evil.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 06:59 PM
I believe the camp that says "A demon/devil wil Always bring evil to the world even if it's good" is wrong, for a simple reason. If that was true, every time you create a good demon or devil, you'd get a polymorphed Drizzt clone.

Funny no one ever thinks of the Yugoloths. But then again, they started the blood war, they can't BE anything else other than evil.

Of course, personally, I tend to think that all Demons/Devils who are good should also not be so by choice. They need a Maguffin to explain their alignment change like divine magic.

Demons, Devils, and so on do not have free will by nature.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-17, 08:58 PM
It's clearly very easy to use phrases like "physical evil" or "made of evil deeds" AS IF they made any sense and actually meant anything. But then, I could use the phrase "flibber boldoffs posufa" as if it made sense, too. Clearly, the cosmic force of flibber boldoffs posufa prevents creatures from having alignment subtypes that disagree with their actual alignments, except when it doesn't. Fnord.


Demons, Devils, and so on do not have free will by nature.
Some would argue that free will is a prerequisite for moral action, so anything without free will would be Neutral. (Me, I'm unclear on just what this "free will" thing is actually supposed to be.)

Rutee
2008-02-17, 09:15 PM
It's genetic if someone wants to do an In the Blood (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InTheBlood) style of story, generally. Basically, whatever's dramatically appropriate.

Frosty
2008-02-17, 11:17 PM
1. A Succubus is a creature that is born from an evil soul out of primordial substance of physical evil (The matter of the Abyss). That substance is made from the evil deeds and chaos of countless actions. The Succubus is a being that has potentially also spent X1000 years in an environment of monstrous horror and torture of the likes of no one could imagine by being a Mane then working her way up to what she is presently.

Plus, her form innately gives her an instinctual desire to massive amounts of sex but also the urge to suck the life out of living beings.

Would you say something similar about the Erinyes then (basically the Lawful Evil version of a succubus, being a devil and all)? According to the Fiendish Codex 2, Erinyes can actually get pregnant and give birth to baby Erinyes, so they are not actually made of the substance of Baator or anything like that. I don't really buy this "I'm made of the abyss, so even if I do good, I do evi." thinking. It doesn't make sense.

Non-sentients things can't be evil. Uranium is not evil. Its presense may be dangerous to living things, ut it is not evil. SImilarly, whatever stuff a succubus is made of is not evil, even if it ddoes have bad effects on others, which I don't think has been proven. I've never seen it written anywhere to be certain.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 11:29 PM
Would you say something similar about the Erinyes then (basically the Lawful Evil version of a succubus, being a devil and all)? According to the Fiendish Codex 2, Erinyes can actually get pregnant and give birth to baby Erinyes, so they are not actually made of the substance of Baator or anything like that. I don't really buy this "I'm made of the abyss, so even if I do good, I do evi." thinking. It doesn't make sense.

Non-sentients things can't be evil. Uranium is not evil. Its presense may be dangerous to living things, ut it is not evil. SImilarly, whatever stuff a succubus is made of is not evil, even if it ddoes have bad effects on others, which I don't think has been proven. I've never seen it written anywhere to be certain.

1. Yes.

The Eriynes they birth are made of the substance of Baator and they have to eat souls first in order to produce them and get pregnant. That's how Devils are made. They have no biological portion because they're creatures of spirit, they just mockingly have something similiar.

2. Okay, they're not evil.

They're just things that want to see you destroy yourself, your family, and everyone you've ever met in the most humiliating and debased manner because that thing gives them a sense of pleasure. Furthermore, it causes them physical agony and disgust on the most basic level to see a human being showing an act of love.

You can RPG fiends elsewise but this is how I always took it.

Citizen Joe
2008-02-17, 11:30 PM
It is said that devils are fallen angels. They are evil because they betrayed the gods (who, being in power, declare themselves good) and thus opposed to goodness. I think what you will find is that gods are aligned to themselves with their underlings aligning to them as well. Devils too are aligned to themselves and against the gods. Since the majority sets the mores (pronounce MORE-ays) of a culture, and the gods are in power because they have more followers, then gods are aligned 'good' by definition.

Frosty
2008-02-17, 11:56 PM
1. Yes.

The Eriynes they birth are made of the substance of Baator and they have to eat souls first in order to produce them and get pregnant. That's how Devils are made. They have no biological portion because they're creatures of spirit, they just mockingly have something similiar.

Page reference please? I'd like to read that.

Jayngfet
2008-02-18, 12:23 AM
always thought of the whole alignment thinh based on culture, an orc raised among high elves is chaotic good and so on

and dont get me started on Eludecia (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

Frosty
2008-02-18, 12:46 AM
That article would be so much better if Elucedia reveals the details of the events that caused her change of heart.

Half-blood
2008-02-18, 12:58 AM
Evil is not inborn. and to counter most arguments here, I bring you to the Erinyes clause. if you'll take note,The First erinyes were angels who Because they turned evil for whatever reason, became Devils. so I see no reason why a Succubus couldn't go so far as to enlist herself as an actual angel. although it would be a bitch to get people to trust you. which also proves it's a lot easier to become evil, than it is to become good. (I think)

Charles Phipps
2008-02-18, 01:42 AM
Evil is not inborn. and to counter most arguments here, I bring you to the Erinyes clause. if you'll take note,The First erinyes were angels who Because they turned evil for whatever reason, became Devils. so I see no reason why a Succubus couldn't go so far as to enlist herself as an actual angel. although it would be a bitch to get people to trust you. which also proves it's a lot easier to become evil, than it is to become good. (I think)

Not until 4E. Eriynes are just Devils and Devils are made from other Devils. See Faces of Evil, the Planescape Supplement.

Half-blood
2008-02-18, 06:19 AM
But even so, 4E aside. these things aren't inborn. but demons and devils would be naturally evil. but that only means that it would be harder to become good because your parents were the embodiment of evil.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-18, 07:20 AM
It's clearly very easy to use phrases like "physical evil" or "made of evil deeds" AS IF they made any sense and actually meant anything. But then, I could use the phrase "flibber boldoffs posufa" as if it made sense, too. Clearly, the cosmic force of flibber boldoffs posufa prevents creatures from having alignment subtypes that disagree with their actual alignments, except when it doesn't. Fnord.


Think of it as like the One Ring. It's not going around murdering people, but its *presence* makes people go around murdering each other. It's an intrinsically evil artifact, and you can't use it for "good" purposes without irrevocably tainting those purposes.

You can play Demons and Devils the same way.

Frosty
2008-02-18, 03:11 PM
Not until 4E. Eriynes are just Devils and Devils are made from other Devils. See Faces of Evil, the Planescape Supplement.

Umm, I'm using Fiendish Codex II, which is more recent than Faces of Evil I'm sure. FC2 contradicts Faces of Evil. Erinyes are fallen angels. They get pregnant like mortals do. They give birth to baby Erinyes.

Fhaolan
2008-02-19, 03:36 AM
Umm, I'm using Fiendish Codex II, which is more recent than Faces of Evil I'm sure. FC2 contradicts Faces of Evil. Erinyes are fallen angels. They get pregnant like mortals do. They give birth to baby Erinyes.

Fluff is mutable, and the fluff in splatbooks constantly contradict each other and themselves. That's just one of those things you get used to. Even in game systems that have only one setting, splatbooks tend to contradict and conflict fluff on a regular basis as different authors and editors don't agree or are writing based on their own specific campaigns, ignoring bits that have gone before that are contradictory. It's not like RPG companies have people who have the sole purpose of being continuity editors.