Zorro vs. Aragorn

[GoC]

Aragorn pre-kingship and the first Zorro are transported to a 4 mile radius arena.
One half of the arena consists of the mossy hills where Aragorn roamed before LotR. The other half consists of the mexican desert and an abandoned mining town.
Zorro has his 'batcave' and horse and Aragorn has whatever equipment he ranges with and plenty of food.

Who wins?

EDIT: How come I always spell his name wrong?:smallfrown:

[Gungnir]

More like, "VS threads VS Spelling Aragorn's Name Right" Fixed.

My bet is Zorro walks up to the mossy hills, makes a witty remark, then discovers an arrow between his eyes.

[EvilElitest]

.............Ug, why?
from
EE

[Rutee]

Well, I don't think Aragorn really knows what the American Southwest was like.. did Middle Earth have huge deserts?

Anyway, probably Aragorn. Zorro is god damn /awesome/, but I don't think he's a fighter on par with him.

....Well, wait, can Zorro actually /use/ the pistols he has? XD

[Icewalker]

More like, "VS threads VS Spelling Aragorn's Name Right"

I was going to make some comment like that, but you beat me to it. Nice.

Hmm...I'm not sure. Honestly, Aragorn is a king and a leader, he has shown no really extreme fighting ability except being a major figure at important battles, while Zorro takes on strongholds with little difficulty. Considering Aragorn alone, also without the reforged blade, I'd give it to Zorro.

[warty goblin]

Helm's Deep. Aragorn, having been awake and riding/walking/running for something like 72 hours straight fights an entire battle with frequent sallies outside the walls with Eomer and Gimli and probably some other dudes against a full army of orcs and Dunlandings with actual equipment and so forth, and he survives. He's also mantained watch over the Shire + Bree for something like sixty years, fighting in the wild against who knows what. Aragorn is a plenty capable warrior.

And if nothing else Aragorn simply evades battle for a day or two then takes Zorro prisoner in his sleep. Being able to remain active for very long periods of time does come in handy like that...

[EvilElitest]

Also Aragorn went through the two biggest battles in teh third age without getting hit once
from
EE

[GoC]

And if nothing else Aragorn simply evades battle for a day or two then takes Zorro prisoner in his sleep. Being able to remain active for very long periods of time does come in handy like that...

Zorro might be able to stay hidden in one of the abondened buildings during the night and set traps to wake him up should Aragorn break in. Aragorn isn't a rogue right?

[FireFox]

I doubt it would be decided in a real "fair" fight... But in a straight up fencing match, I'd have to go with Zorro.:smallbiggrin:

[Tengu]

Zorro might be able to stay hidden in one of the abondened buildings during the night and set traps to wake him up should Aragorn break in. Aragorn isn't a rogue right?

Why are you looking at this battle through a DND perspective?

[GoC]

Why are you looking at this battle through a DND perspective?

I'm not. I meant that Aragorn doesn't have experience bypassing/disarming traps or moving through trapped areas.

[Rutee]

There's also the issue of finding out Zorro's Zorro. Gather Information is less then helpful when pretty much everyone in the town is stupid and hasn't figured it out yet..

[Sir Shadow]

1v1 sword fight: Zorro (He has shown waaaay more skilll with a sword [albeit a rapier] and agility, I don't care HOW old or how experience Aragorn is)

Reckless charge: Aragorn (bow + greater strength)

Battle of Attrition: Zorro. (sorry, but I think Zorro is intelligent enough to set great traps and slowly wear Aragorn down. Although Aragorn is also intelligent and wise, he hasn't shown TOO much tactical knowledge other than an "all-out" brawl. If Aragorn did win this category, it would only be b/c of some chance mistake of Zorro's and Aragorn catching him off-guard)

Also... Zorro isn't exactly known as a "witty remark" person so I don't think he'd be stupid enough to mince words with Aragorn.

[Rare Pink Leech]

I think Aragorn will win. While he would be unfamiliar with the Mexican territory (both because he's never been there before and because he's never seen a desert), Aragorn is a tracker and outdoorsman par exellance, so he will be fine in either territory. Plus, as has been mentioned, he has practically superhuman endurance, and was able to survive the battles of the Hornsburg and Pelennor Fields without a single scratch. I'm pretty sure all incarnations of Zorro have been injured, even if the injuries are only minor cuts. That implies that Aragorn is a superior fighter.

[Rutee]

If it comes to a straight fight, Zorro wins without question. 1800 Mexico, people. Pistols. He's got 'em, though it's not in his standard idiom to /use/ them. Aragorn is far better versed in the forests and setting ambushes, I'm pretty sure, but..


Aragorn is a tracker and outdoorsman par exellance, so he will be fine in either territory.
Uh, sorry, no. If he's not used to deserts, he will not automatically acclimate to how one is supposed to act in them unless he has patently supernatural ability to do so.
Which he might. But it'd need to be backed up.

[Icewalker]

Also, being adapted to and able to exist/function in an area does not give him any kind of advantage, merely removes a disadvantage...at best.

In a straight fight, Zorro would win as he is a far superior duelist. In a battle of attrition it'd be closer.

Aragorn can't do anything to somebody he doesn't know the location of. However he is an expert tracker, so I believe before too long he'll be able to find Zorro's zorrocave. The question here is how much does Zorro know of Aragorn, and how prepared is he? If he can determine that Aragorn will come to the zorrocave he can set up traps, which Aragorn is not prepared to deal with, then make sure to face him down in a one v one fight without giving Aragorn the advantage of distance.

The way I see it, the only way Aragorn could win is if he sneaks up on Zorro (...) or if he somehow manages to attack Zorro from a distance, which could be possible.

[dehro]

why in heck should Aragorn be the one to hunt down Zorro and enter his territory and why should it not be the other way around?

if there's food applenty, all Aragorn needs to do is to stay put and wait for zorro to die of old age... which isn't going to happen to him any time soon

[warty goblin]

I feel that people are tending to sell Aragorn way short here on some things. Remember he's spent about sixty years hunting evil all over the place. He's been to Rohan, Gondor, the Morgul Vale and so forth. I'm willing to bet that somewhere along the road he learned to check for traps before walking into enemy territory. He routinely kills well armored and armed opponants even when badly outnumbered and tired as hell, he just does it with less flash than some, which if anything is a point in his favor. Focusing on killing your enemy in a fight to the death rather than looking badass while doing so isn't exactly a bad thing last time I checked.

Aragorn can also most likely heal himself better, which never hurts.


And finally, Zorro uses a rapier, a weapon essentially designed to be as non-lethal as possible and still have a point. It is only lethal on a stab, and even then the miniscule blade cross-section means it won't actually kill unless it hits something very important such as the jugular. Rapier cuts might hurt, but are incrediably unlikely to actually kill a person because the blade lacks the geometry and the weight to actually score a deep cut. The sort of early medieval sword Aragorn likely has on the other hand is designed precisely for cutting people apart as efficiently as possible, and has the blade geometry to do just that. De-limbing, beheading, bone-breaking and complete esciveration are all well in the capabilities of such a weapon, and don't even require that exceptional of a hit to accomplish.

[EvilElitest]

Uh, sorry, no. If he's not used to deserts, he will not automatically acclimate to how one is supposed to act in them unless he has patently supernatural ability to do so.
Which he might. But it'd need to be backed up.

Aragorn did fight in Harad which is basically a desert
from
EE

[Mikeavelli]

And finally, Zorro uses a rapier, a weapon essentially designed to be as non-lethal as possible and still have a point. It is only lethal on a stab, and even then the miniscule blade cross-section means it won't actually kill unless it hits something very important such as the jugular. Rapier cuts might hurt, but are incrediably unlikely to actually kill a person because the blade lacks the geometry and the weight to actually score a deep cut. The sort of early medieval sword Aragorn likely has on the other hand is designed precisely for cutting people apart as efficiently as possible, and has the blade geometry to do just that. De-limbing, beheading, bone-breaking and complete esciveration are all well in the capabilities of such a weapon, and don't even require that exceptional of a hit to accomplish.


It's extremely difficult to de-limb a person. Even bone-breaking and evisceration require exceptional hits from a larger sword. They're at least as difficult to manage as they would be with a Rapier, if not moreso due Aragorns sword being much slower.

Furthermore, the Rapier is a product of advanced metal-making, allowing for a longer, lighter blade compared to the medieval sword Aragorn uses. In a prolonged fight like you'd have between two sword masters, Aragorn will get tired faster, recieve more minor cuts that contribute to his exhaustion, and be unable to deal with a swordfighting style he's never seen before.

If they were guns, it'd be like one guy with a flintlock rifle from the revolutionary war going up against someone armed with a modern civilian hunting rifle. Sure, the guy with the flintlock has a fighting chance, but the guy with the modern rifle has the upper hand in terms of equipment.

Now, add in Zorro is just that cool, and we've got ourselves a winner!

[Tirian]

Zorro might be able to stay hidden in one of the abondened buildings during the night and set traps to wake him up should Aragorn break in. Aragorn isn't a rogue right?

Aragorn is a ranger. In fact, I suppose he is The Ranger. His clan protected the Hobbits for time immemorial without their knowledge, and hobbits aren't particularly stupid. I think we can spot him knowledge and awareness of elementary traps.

Overall, you're pitting the paragon of humanity in the Third Age with a clever guerrilla from the Fourth. Aragorn will handle Zorro with as much savoir faire as Zorro handles his normal diet of mooks.

[Spiryt]

And finally, Zorro uses a rapier, a weapon essentially designed to be as non-lethal as possible and still have a point. It is only lethal on a stab, and even then the miniscule blade cross-section means it won't actually kill unless it hits something very important such as the jugular. Rapier cuts might hurt, but are incrediably unlikely to actually kill a person because the blade lacks the geometry and the weight to actually score a deep cut. The sort of early medieval sword Aragorn likely has on the other hand is designed precisely for cutting people apart as efficiently as possible, and has the blade geometry to do just that. De-limbing, beheading, bone-breaking and complete esciveration are all well in the capabilities of such a weapon, and don't even require that exceptional of a hit to accomplish.

Firstly, as far as I know Zorro was using smallsword.

Yeah, smallsword were thin light blades, but they were deadly to humans. That's what they were made for. They can't do very impresing cuts, but are very fast, and even if they can't kill so well, I don't think that anyone imaled by it was able to continue fight. And they were going into human body very easily. They blade geometry was allowing them to do so.

As much as I love longswords, smallswords were probably slightly better dueling weapon, if they are used up to XX century in unarmored duels. Although that's manly beacuse there were no longer need to have longswords
(no mails e.c.). On the other hand I just can't imagine parrying longsword with smallsword... and that parrying was basic in smallsword's fencing, so things anyway bad for Z.

Still I think that Aragorn will win. He was fighting for 60 years, experience alone gives him advantage, not to mention other things. Not to mention that he has Anduril and Zorro some plain dumb smallsword.

[FireFox]

If my interpretation of the books is right, then aragorn more or less stopped rangering around and became a king. Meaning he would not have Anduril for this fight. See the first post. I see this as comparing 2 different classes of fighters. They are pararallel...

EDIT: "among other things"? and besides, "Mr. Fox" is more dexterous then Aragorn, he can flip about and use the local scenery to play off of (jumping off objects, et al.) But again this is just for a straight about fencing match, it all really depends how they fight...

[Piedmon_Sama]

Guys please, let's not turn this into a "r33l sw0rdsm4ns" debate. This is about the men, not the weapons.

Zorro's good, yes, but he's not a one-man army. He mostly works through evasion, a combination of acrobatics and stealth. Aragorn's M.O is more to just wade in and slash his way through a hundred-strong platoon of Uruks. Also importantly, I think Aragorn as a son of Numenor and experienced Ranger has somewhat better sight/hearing than the average human.... might make sneaking up on Zorro's part pretty hard to do.

Also, it's been a long time since I watched, but I'm pretty sure The Mask of Zorro is set in Spanish California, not Mexico. >>

[dehro]

Furthermore, the Rapier is a product of advanced metal-making, allowing for a longer, lighter blade compared to the medieval sword Aragorn uses. In a prolonged fight like you'd have between two sword masters, Aragorn will get tired faster, recieve more minor cuts that contribute to his exhaustion, and be unable to deal with a swordfighting style he's never seen before.


that's an awfull lot of assumptions based on a flawed argument...
advanced metalmaking is fine compared to real world medieval sloppy weapons...but where do you get the notion that aragorn is using any of the kind?
even without Anduril, Aragorn will still be equipped with weapons crafted by elves (he was educated in warfare and grew up at rivendel and I don't think Elrond would ever let him set out with weapons of less than superb quality..and this is by tolkiens, elvish standards, not by medieval realworld standards.

also...Aragorn tires more quickly? why? He comes from a long line of warriors, has elvish blood, was trained from infancy to fight... I think in many ways he has an edge, from a mere atlethic point of view. Zorro now is certainly more agile and very fast... but those are his only advantages..and Aragorn has experience and cunning derived from decades of patroling, scouting (often in enemy territory)..Zorro is mostly very good at hiding behind doors and surprising his enemy... I don't see how he could pull that of with aragorn though.
the only circumstance where zorro might have a chance is a real duel... no tricks, fair fighting...where all that matters is skill and accuracy...his speed might serve him well there.. but really..that's about his only chance

[FireFox]

Well spoken, despite my love of Zorro, I am forced to agree with you.

[EvilElitest]

Aragorn doesn't tire more quicky, in the battle of Pellonor fields he went for the entire fight unhurt and was still fine, he ran for a few days straight crossing many leagues (and earning the name Wingfoot) and fought both at Helm's deep and the Black Gate without collapsing from fatigue
from
EE

[Elrond]

even without Anduril, Aragorn will still be equipped with weapons crafted by elves (he was educated in warfare and grew up at rivendel and I don't think Elrond would ever let him set out with weapons of less than superb quality..and this is by tolkiens, elvish standards, not by medieval realworld standards.

It is true i never let Aragorn leave with out the best weopons my elvish blacksmiths could make

this is how i picture Aragorn (http://www.campaign-blog.com/view.php?id=7613)

[Swordguy]

And finally, Zorro uses a rapier, a weapon essentially designed to be as non-lethal as possible and still have a point. It is only lethal on a stab, and even then the miniscule blade cross-section means it won't actually kill unless it hits something very important such as the jugular. Rapier cuts might hurt, but are incrediably unlikely to actually kill a person because the blade lacks the geometry and the weight to actually score a deep cut. The sort of early medieval sword Aragorn likely has on the other hand is designed precisely for cutting people apart as efficiently as possible, and has the blade geometry to do just that. De-limbing, beheading, bone-breaking and complete esciveration are all well in the capabilities of such a weapon, and don't even require that exceptional of a hit to accomplish.


Regarding rapiers, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The nearest analogue to Narsil/Andruil is an Oakeshotte Type XVII (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxvii.html), with a unique hollow pommel and a fuller. It's use is hardly "early medieval", dating from roughly 1350-1450. It weights in the area of 3 pounds and is deceptively fast to change direction. Even a cut from the wielder's wrists is enough to shear through an arm. To your credit, though, you have a good understanding of its effects.

Zorro actually uses a smallsword (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt5181.html). They are incredibly light and fast, and a penetration of about 2" is plenty sufficient to kill a man in the "torso box".

And regardless of the qualities of the men, the weapons used DO have an impact on the fight. The weapon determines the fighting style.

Since neither man has experienced the other's fighting style before, the most likely conclusion the fight is a mutual kill - Zorro lunges and spits Aragorn, who brings his weapon down and cuts off Zorro's arms or slices through the unfortunate Don's torso. See the ending of Rob Roy (Liam Neeson, Tim Roth) for a decent reference, although Roth's smallsword fighter intentionally goes for wounding and nonlethal limb stabs solely to mock his opponent...which turns out to be not a very good idea.

[Ossian]

Aye, straight fencing duel, with salute and points to score, might go to Zorro. They wouldn' possibly try to kill each other in such a contest, and Aragorn might well know he is not unbeatable. Dunedain know what fair play is, and he might be a good sportsman and say "masked man, this one goes to you. ever though of a work as a ranger? you ride well, and fight better, I guess we have a job for you"

However, in a "there can be only one" contest, a man who has fought, starving and outnumbered, raging masses of steel and muscle such as orks, trolls and God knows what other horrors that ould have sent Burliman cowering in a corner (horers that stalked but 2 days away from Bree) could probably take Zorro's life.

Not saying that he'd go berserk. Just that Aragorn is used to fighting multiple berserkers all by himself. Give him a good mannered Californian aristocrat and he'd think he's up for a walk in the park. He'd probably be willing to take a cut or two, but he'd most definitely fight in a way that a De la Vega would consider dirty as a sewage. Alejandro/Diego has confronted just plain stupid mooks, possibly commoners with saber and rifle, or level 1 soldiers (just to give you the paragon) with the occasional Big Boss with better skill than his mooks.

O.

[dehro]

I'm not sure about the mutual kill thing...
they're both experienced fighters, so I reckon they'd study each others in search for an opening... a mutual kill could probably occur if they were to charge blindly against one another, disregarding any attempt at parrying..but in any other situation I think the mutual kill is unlikely to happen.

[EvilElitest]

Regarding rapiers, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

The nearest analogue to Narsil/Andruil is an Oakeshotte Type XVII (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxvii.html), with a unique hollow pommel and a fuller. It's use is hardly "early medieval", dating from roughly 1350-1450. It weights in the area of 3 pounds and is deceptively fast to change direction. Even a cut from the wielder's wrists is enough to shear through an arm. To your credit, though, you have a good understanding of its effects.

Zorro actually uses a smallsword (http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt5181.html). They are incredibly light and fast, and a penetration of about 2" is plenty sufficient to kill a man in the "torso box".

And regardless of the qualities of the men, the weapons used DO have an impact on the fight. The weapon determines the fighting style.

Since neither man has experienced the other's fighting style before, the most likely conclusion the fight is a mutual kill - Zorro lunges and spits Aragorn, who brings his weapon down and cuts off Zorro's arms or slices through the unfortunate Don's torso. See the ending of Rob Roy (Liam Neeson, Tim Roth) for a decent reference, although Roth's smallsword fighter intentionally goes for wounding and nonlethal limb stabs solely to mock his opponent...which turns out to be not a very good idea.

small swords were made for the nobilty of Europe and weren't made for med-evil style combat but for duels or show or occasionally combat in Napoleon style warfare.
from
EE

[warty goblin]

I was going from the book version of Aragorns sword, the make of which I reverse engineered from the other weapons described, namely that the best armor available was chainmail. This to me suggests a cut oriented blade ala the 12th or 13th centuries.

If we go by the movie version that's an entirely different kettle of fish, and Zorro is well and truly screwed. IIRC the movie Anduril measured 53 inches, which is well over the length of a smallsword. Swords of that length were, I believe, generally used in a thrusting style as well, since it took far to much effort to actually swing the blade. Even if the smallsword is somewhat faster, which it probably is, getting inside of the reach of Anduril is going to be a major problem.

Also, yes a two inch deep smallsword thrust could be fatal. People could also just keep fighting after having been run completely through several times. I think the analogue here is a 9mm handgun, it can certainly kill and is in fact relatively likely to kill, but it is not exactly guarenteed to do so. Also, my bad on the rapier thing, althoug in my defense I was not actually the first to say Zorro used a rapier, I was merely responding.

[Poison_Fish]

small swords were made for the nobilty of Europe and weren't made for med-evil style combat but for duels or show or occasionally combat in Napoleon style warfare.
from
EE

Um, no. Double no, there, EE.

Small swords were used in warfare in the same equivilance as daggers were used. This was for warfare pre-firearms because while armor was still effective against many forms of attack, often enough those who were armored would get into grappling range were long swords, halberds, spear's effectiveness would lessen. Small weapons that were meant to penetrate armor and be used in close range was needed. These would be functionally small swords and daggers.

The amount of times people would get in that close range of each other was frequent.

Fast forward to Zorro's time where firearms are still largely dominant, then you get swords for show.

[EvilElitest]

Um, no. Double no, there, EE.

Small swords were used in warfare in the same equivilance as daggers were used. This was for warfare pre-firearms because while armor was still effective against many forms of attack, often enough those who were armored would get into grappling range were long swords, halberds, spear's effectiveness would lessen. Small weapons that were meant to penetrate armor and be used in close range was needed. These would be functionally small swords and daggers.

The amount of times people would get in that close range of each other was frequent.

Fast forward to Zorro's time where firearms are still largely dominant, then you get swords for show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallsword

I don't think so, what you seem to be talking about is short swords, longswords or daggers, because a small sword is two thin to parry heavy weapons
from
EE

[Swordguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallsword

I don't think so, what you seem to be talking about is short swords, longswords or daggers, because a small sword is two thin to parry heavy weapons
from
EE

You don't parry, you deflect. Big difference. Parries are bad in actual swordplay.

Smallswords weren't generally used during the same time period as heavy "mass" weapons or striking (as opposed the thrusting) polearms. Their ability to defend against those weapons, therefore, is speculative, since there's no historical data either way. They were absolutely used, in combat, up through the First World War (the US Infantry Manual of Drill 1913 Ed [updated to 1917]) includes a specific chapter on smallsword play against a sabre-wielding mounted opponent. Certainly the sabre was a more common melee weapon post-Napoleon, but the smallsword stuck around.

As for the effort of swinging an OT-XVII...the weapon weighs 3-4lbs. There's no problem swinging it. Hell, if you need proof, the prop Viggo carried was a full-weight metal weapon, and he had no problem swinging it.



Also, my bad on the rapier thing, althoug in my defense I was not actually the first to say Zorro used a rapier, I was merely responding.

Fair enough. I missed that. My bad.

[Ossian]

To Viggo's defense, I must say that I was impressed by a demonstration swordplay with the XIII century long and broadsword. Footwork might have been less sophisticated than what a XIX century gentleman might have learnt, but it looked still pretty effective, sort of brutally quick, and risky, very risky. With some nasty tricks up their sleeves like locking blades and attacking with a reverse blow with the pommel or with the arms of the cross-shaped guard (which were by all accounts deadly spikes when aimed at the face), knee shots, half-blade grips (on the ricasso) for better stabbing speed. Dangerous stuff to try with modern fencing, but in a brutal fight where the purpose is to take the other's life, and wearing a decent chainmail, Aragorn might take Zorro's life, perhaps with a few nasty cuts on the tighs (eventually they'll heal, though).

Can't help thinking about 2 Liam Neeson performances (on screen) in "Kingdom of Heavens" and "Rob Roy". In the latter I honestly feared for Rob Roy's life while dueling with mr. Cunningham, but things played out in his favor.

O.

[Rowanomicon]

The interent ate my longer post, but in the end I think I'd have to give this to Aragorn considering he can keep Zorro awake for a few days straight then coup de grace him after he falls over from exaustion.

I think the only way Zorro could win is if he caught Aragorn by surprise and that's just not happeneing in Aragorn's neck of the woods and still rather dificult in Zorro's. I'm not saying that a clever trap and backstab is impossible, but Aragorn's not going to fall for any simple traps, even in unfamiliar territory and sneaking up on him is not easy.

Too bad, I love the Fox, but I think he's outmatched. Of couse if they were both wielding smallswords I'd give it to Zorro in a straight duel, but Aragorn isn't wielding a smallsword.

[JDMSJR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itc9n2MaT94

Aragorn would be sliced to ribbons before he knew what hit him.

[puppyavenger]

Zoro shoots him with a gun, and he dies from bullet wounds.

[Swordguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itc9n2MaT94

Aragorn would be sliced to ribbons before he knew what hit him.



...Zorro lunges and spits Aragorn, who brings his weapon down and cuts off Zorro's arms or slices through the unfortunate Don's torso.

Stabs don't kill immediately, regardless of what you see on film. Our intrepid ranger has plenty of time to bring the weapon around while Zorro recovers from his lunge.

[Tirian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itc9n2MaT94

Aragorn would be sliced to ribbons before he knew what hit him.

I love the assumptions that Aragorn is armed with a heavy sword against a light one and yet is dressed for a epee bout. Zorro's point couldn't penetrate Viggo's beard stubble much less the (non-encumbering) elven mail shirt Aragorn is undoubtedly wearing. Heck, he might even be able to take a bullet fired from a nineteenth-century gun without more than a bruise.

I'm also far from convinced that this would be the first time Aragorn has encountered fencing; it seems like something the elves would have invented. By contrast, I could imagine that Zorro's rapier would be sundered in the first strike by Anduril.

I've got nothing against Zorro, but you're pitting him against the greatest Man born in millenia (and then in a time when the least Man was better than any of us modern folk) who has been equipped and trained by elves and the wisest kings, and who either is or is destined to be the king who brings humankind into permanent dominion over the world. Get over it, people, he's the goddamned Aragorn.

[warty goblin]

Stabs don't kill immediately, regardless of what you see on film. Our intrepid ranger has plenty of time to bring the weapon around while Zorro recovers from his lunge.

Particularly when you consider that Aragorn's sword is much longer, meaning even landing a strike is going to be supremely dangerous. That and deflecting blows from the type of sword Aragorn is going to weild with an epee/smallsword is going to be very difficult to say the least.

[EvilElitest]

Does Zorro poison his weapons?
from
EE

[Swordguy]

Does Zorro poison his weapons?
from
EE

What?!

Absolutely the heck not.

He's Zorro, man! Heroes don't do that.

[Spiryt]

Does Zorro poison his weapons?
from
EE

Even if so, remember, Aragorn have considerable knowledge about herbs, and his majestic power of healing (although who knows if he can heal himself that way).

Anyway poison could be not such problem for him.

[EvilElitest]

So Zorro is in a lot of trouble, because even if he pulls off a lethal hit on Aragorn (who can fight even if critically wounded) he is in trouble because Aragorn will just kill him.
from
EE

[Selrahc]

That and deflecting blows from the type of sword Aragorn is going to weild with an epee/smallsword is going to be very difficult to say the least.

The weight of the weapon doesn't really matter if you're deflecting a blow. Because you are not acting against the weapon at all.

This wouldn't be Zorro holding his sword in front of the other sword, and trying to block the attack. Aragorn could simply power through that. But rather to deflect the blow Zorro would hit the side of the sword, knocking it in an unintended direction.

Aragorns strength, and the weight of the sword never come into play, since he is not working aginst them.


Zorro's point couldn't penetrate Viggo's beard stubble much less the (non-encumbering) elven mail shirt Aragorn is undoubtedly wearing.

The smallsword, like the rapier that it derives from, is a highly effective weapon at getting through armour. That was one of the main points of its design.

It would certainly be a better armour piercing weapon than the sword Aragorn carries.

[Spiryt]

The weight of the weapon doesn't really matter if you're deflecting a blow. Because you are not acting against the weapon at all.
This wouldn't be Zorro holding his sword in front of the other sword, and trying to block the attack. Aragorn could simply power through that. But rather to deflect the blow Zorro would hit the side of the sword, knocking it in an unintended direction.
Aragorns strength, and the weight of the sword never come into play, since he is not working aginst them.
The smallsword, like the rapier that it derives from, is a highly effective weapon at getting through armour. That was one of the main points of its design.
It would certainly be a better armour piercing weapon than the sword Aragorn carries.

Sorry, but those are nonsenses you just wrote.

The weight of the weapon comes to play. Why shouldn't it? :smallconfused:

The weight of the longsword would make it hard to deflect it with smallsword, which were on average 3 times lighter.
If we additonaly consider that Aragorn is stronger (don't know why he should, but somebody put that theory), monumentum of his attacks could be even harder to stop.


Aragorns strength, and the weight of the sword never come into play, since he is not working aginst them.

So against what he is working?

And rapier weren't especially good at piercing armor (depends - what armor, but still). And smallsword, much lighter and smaller, more "civilian" version of rapier, were even worse. They were quite good at getting 'around' armor, as their were capable of precise strikes in joints of armor e.c. Not "trough" armor.
At least if we are talking about plate/scale/ or any other stiff armor. But Aragorn anywya weren't wearing any of those.

I agree that chainmail won't be so effective against smallsword. In fact it probably wouldn't protect from being wounded at all, however wounds would be rather shallow.

[Selrahc]

So against what he is working?

He is pushing forward, the smallsword is pushing sideways.

So all the strength and energy he is using is pushing it forwards, so an attempt to deflect it by pushing it backwards would be working against that.

An attempt to push it sideways however, is not resisted.

This is why in many two sword styles you use two swords, one longer sword and one shorter sword. The longer sword is used to attack, the shorter sword is used to knock aside blows by the longer sword of the opponent. Because the weight of the opponents weapon didn't really matter, since it only took a small ammount of energy to parry.

Historically combinations like a Rapier and Duelling dagger, or Katana and Wakizashi were examples of this.

[Ossian]

He is pushing forward, the smallsword is pushing sideways.

So all the strength and energy he is using is pushing it forwards, so an attempt to deflect it by pushing it backwards would be working against that.

An attempt to push it sideways however, is not resisted.

This is why in many two sword styles you use two swords, one longer sword and one shorter sword. The longer sword is used to attack, the shorter sword is used to knock aside blows by the longer sword of the opponent. Because the weight of the opponents weapon didn't really matter, since it only took a small ammount of energy to parry.

Historically combinations like a Rapier and Duelling dagger, or Katana and Wakizashi were examples of this.


I am afraid you're right. That's why in a "Soul Blade" arena Zorro has a good advantage, although not a decisive one. Just to make an analogy, you don't "BLOCK" a straight punch by punching straight into the attacker's knuckles (I mean, you can, but that's just plain dirty, and bid farewell to some bones). You hit the wrist/forearm sideways. All the momentum goes straight, but it takes just a small fraction of it sideways to alter the trajectory of the blow. You can still get hit, but it's a matter of timing and reflexes and footwork to keep the distance and circle around your opponent, rather than brute force.

Zorro would be tired of living if he just went blade on blade with Aragorn. The chieftain of the Rangers is still not a complete moron, and he could come up wit alternative strategies, such as risking a lunging blow to his armored chest and be able to close the distance and grapple/wrestle. He has the advantage of Height, strength and experience in that, given the gruesome mass battles he fought in his 80 years (and his "magic" blood). Let's be honest, he is quite a modest guy, but Gandalf aside he could have mopped the floor with any of the Fellowship members any day of the Yare. So, I suppose that an agile and lithe Don would be a piece of cake for him in a wrestling match with a cool "blade lock".

[Spiryt]

Well, in some ideal situation certainly, but I doubt that those happens in fight often.

Besides - you are right, application of force from the side would be more effective. But still, enemy is not idiot, and he is using strenght of arms and other parts to assure that he's blow is not so easy to deflect. And certainly it's easier to do with heavier blade (if it's not to heavy of course)

Not to mention that he can perform strike on enemy's weapon, to beast it aside.

If bashing aside heavier weapons were so easy, zweihanders would be never developed - soldier would knock the pikes aside with something lighter.

[Ossian]

Well, in some ideal situation certainly, but I doubt that those happens in fight often.

Besides - you are right, application of force from the side would be more effective. But still, enemy is not idiot, and he is using strenght of arms and other parts to assure that he's blow is not so easy to deflect. And certainly it's easier to do with heavier blade (if it's not to heavy of course)

Not to mention that he can perform strike on enemy's weapon, to beast it aside.

If bashing aside heavier weapons were so easy, zweihanders would be never developed - soldier would knock the pikes aside with something lighter.

I see this heading to the "real words armor and weapons" platform. Still, it's an interesting context to use (Ar. Vs Zo.) for a field test. It's not the case of two fictional heroes, but I tend to believe that the principle of maximum effectiveness has been hindered through ages of melee and mass battles by some cornerstones in the fighters mentality. In other words, some things that might appear obvious to us, are so due to the centuries of experience, mistakes and to the changes in mentality and the figure of the soldier.

No one could block a zweihander with anything lighter than another fullblade, but in principle yes, probably even with a standard rapier, provided it was made of solid and flexible steel, you might divert it away from its intended landing zone (i.e. thy skull, friende). The same 2-hander would be as heavy as a rail to lift, and it would be a good chance for a thrust of the repier in the 2-hander man's eye...

I guess what I am saying is that using a small sword against Anduril hoping Aragorn is dumb enough to swing it like a piece of railing from the Western Pacific requires no small amount of "twin spheric manly implements" possibly fuming with adrenaline. It's a risky tactic (just like pointing everything on a swing of a massive blade though) and it can get you a limb off, or a broken bone at the very least. If the guy is charging you with foam (so to speak) at his mouth and a reach a good 20 inches better than yours it takes one hell of a cold blood to just circle around, footwork, deflect and move again. You stop, you stumble, you falter...ye die... (well, nobody said that taking on a King of Gondor was an easy task)

[Spiryt]

The same 2-hander would be as heavy as a rail to lift, and it would be a good chance for a thrust of the repier in the 2-hander man's eye...

This is popular misconception. Most zweihanders weighted much more than 3 kg, and as all swords were very fast weapons. Slow weapon is generally weapon of suicide.

Of course due to greater weight, lenght et cetera their were far more cumbersome, less responsive than things like rapiersm, but on the other hand their strikes were virtually imposible to parry with lighter weapons, much harder to deflect, and their were deflecting lighter blades with ease.

Everythings works both ways.

[warty goblin]

I am afraid you're right. That's why in a "Soul Blade" arena Zorro has a good advantage, although not a decisive one. Just to make an analogy, you don't "BLOCK" a straight punch by punching straight into the attacker's knuckles (I mean, you can, but that's just plain dirty, and bid farewell to some bones). You hit the wrist/forearm sideways. All the momentum goes straight, but it takes just a small fraction of it sideways to alter the trajectory of the blow. You can still get hit, but it's a matter of timing and reflexes and footwork to keep the distance and circle around your opponent, rather than brute force.

Zorro would be tired of living if he just went blade on blade with Aragorn. The chieftain of the Rangers is still not a complete moron, and he could come up wit alternative strategies, such as risking a lunging blow to his armored chest and be able to close the distance and grapple/wrestle. He has the advantage of Height, strength and experience in that, given the gruesome mass battles he fought in his 80 years (and his "magic" blood). Let's be honest, he is quite a modest guy, but Gandalf aside he could have mopped the floor with any of the Fellowship members any day of the Yare. So, I suppose that an agile and lithe Don would be a piece of cake for him in a wrestling match with a cool "blade lock".

Agreed, though I think you missed one important point about a deflection- the mass of the blade. Zorro's smallsword will have far less mass than Aragorn's sword, but probably not be moving any faster (it can change direction faster, but I don't believe lighter weapons were actually swung appreciably more rapidly), and hence will have far less momentum than Aragorn's sword. This means that in order to alter the vector of Aragorn's attack, Zorro's sword will have to make contact with the blade for far longer than it would against another smallsword. This of course means that even deflections are far more difficult to do. Even more annoying is the center of percussion on a smallsword is, IIRC, fairly close to the hilt, meaning Zorro must let Aragorn's sword close enough to catch the blade near the guard, or else lose a good deal of the momentum of his deflecting strike to vibrations in his sword blade.

[Ossian]

Agreed, though I think you missed one important point about a deflection- the mass of the blade. Zorro's smallsword will have far less mass than Aragorn's sword, but probably not be moving any faster (it can change direction faster, but I don't believe lighter weapons were actually swung appreciably more rapidly), and hence will have far less momentum than Aragorn's sword.

Hmm...I guiess that's our crossroad. I take left and you take right, though I am not 100% sure of my take on the blade's speed/mass equation, I will stay for a little more with the rapier/smallsword faster than the Greatsword


Even more annoying is the center of percussion on a smallsword is, IIRC, fairly close to the hilt, meaning Zorro must let Aragorn's sword close enough to catch the blade near the guard, or else lose a good deal of the momentum of his deflecting strike to vibrations in his sword blade.

Good call :smallsmile: . Definitely something to factor.
I still imagine Aragorn choosing some battlefield move he learned against uruk hai (100 kg each, raging, armored, served in packs of 20) and swarms of southrons on Don Alejandro, using the pommel or the crossguard of Anduril and tripping/grappling, but a fair and plain swordplay session is not out of question.

Tough time for both. All in all, this reminds me of the Grifis Vs Gatsu confrontation when the Dark-Warrior to be decided to leave the Hawks.
Long eye-stare, 180 long zweihander vs cavalry saber. The snow falls off a branch, and as it hits the ground they both spring. All is decided in one assault. Pure awesome...

O.

[FireFox]

Heh, id like to remind you all to read the first post, Aragorn did not have Anduril while rangering, and he would not ranger about weilding anduril. He would have a good quality blade of course, just not anduril

[Tirian]

It would certainly be a better armour piercing weapon than the sword Aragorn carries.

That's not really relevant. In the category of my weapon vs. his armor, Aragorn is the clear winner. Aragorn isn't going to pierce Zorro's armor, he's going to cleave Zorro's body from the shoulder to the opposite waist, and Zorro's shirt will offer no resistance. Granted, Zorro gets a free lunge for Aragorn's heart while this swing is taking place, but this is hardly a stalemate -- Aragorn's mail shirt was crafted by an immortal elf and Zorro's sword was crafted by a nineteenth-century blacksmith. Are you really making the call that the sword is going to hit home under those circumstances?

[warty goblin]

Actually, the only time I recall any mention of Aragorn wearing armor is the Battle of Helm's Deep, and I think again at the Black Gate. I assume he still wore the mail from Helm's Deep at Minas Tirith, but I'm not sure.

When he set out from Rivendell however it is pretty explicitly stated that Gimli and (secretly) Frodo are the only members of the Fellowship in armor, and I don't recal him wearing any in Bree.

The pattern I get from this is that unless he's pretty much expecting a hard fight, Aragorn doesn't bother with armor, which is a real pain to move in for long periods. I own a chainmail hauberk pretty similar to what Aragorn would be likely to wear, and have taken walks through temperate style woods in it, and leme tell ya, its pretty damned inconvenient. It gets caught in everything, if its cold it freezes your ass off, it its hot you bake, and it makes going up hill about half again as difficult. Going downhill isn't much better, since it makes you crazy topheavy.

The worst part though were the thorns. They'd get snagged between the links, then break off and basically work their way inwards. By the time I got out of that Raspberry patch it was like I was wearing a thorn bush...

[EvilElitest]

Heh, id like to remind you all to read the first post, Aragorn did not have Anduril while rangering, and he would not ranger about weilding anduril. He would have a good quality blade of course, just not anduril

He did actually, the sword was broken i believe. But aren't we using both at best equipment?

They could resort to fistycuffs
from
EE

[thorgrim29]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itc9n2MaT94

Aragorn would be sliced to ribbons before he knew what hit him.

Why are the fight scenes in modern movies so pathetic compared to this?

[EvilElitest]

Why are the fight scenes in modern movies so pathetic compared to this?

Most likely because we like people with giant swords and blocking bullets more than realism :smallmad:
from
EE

[Swordguy]

Most likely because we like people with giant swords and blocking bullets more than realism :smallmad:
from
EE

That fight has nothing to do with realism.

It is exactly THAT perception that leads to threads like this, where everyone thinks they know who swordplay works, and everyone is flat wrong. Understand, that the only responsibility a fight choreographer has is to make the fight look cool and tell the story of the conflict. Historical accuracy is almost never a factor. I just finished a run of Othello at Cincinnati's premiere venue (the Aronoff, for those in this area) and did the fights for the show. I was all pumped to use di Grassi's theorums on single rapier play, but the guy playing Cassio has basically never held a sword before rehearsals started. I had 8 rehearsals of about 30 minutes each to teach him to fight. It's not safe to expect him to use these techniques that require a true long-term dedication to the art to use correctly. The timing, for example. Di Grassi uses a LOT of simultaneous movement. You don't do that onstage with anyone who's been "in the saddle" less that two full years. So, even though I wanted historical accuracy, I couldn't. This sort of thing happens all thime time in the entertainment industry. Don't ever expect a movie to show historical accuracy in its fights.

Want to see a realistic smallsword fight? Watch the [i]Dueling[i] episode of Conquest.

Want to see how an arming sword or war sword fights? Tough. There basically isn't a movie that accurately shows accurate windings or messerhaus. They don't play well onscreen.

[EvilElitest]

That fight has nothing to do with realism.

It is exactly THAT perception that leads to threads like this, where everyone thinks they know who swordplay works, and everyone is flat wrong.

Want to see a realistic smallsword fight? Watch the [i]Dueling[i] episode of Conquest.

Want to see how an arming sword or war sword fights? Tough. There basically isn't a movie that accurately shows accurate windings or messerhaus. They don't play well onscreen.

But is more realistic than modern fight scenes
from
EE

[Swordguy]

But is more realistic than modern fight scenes
from
EE

No. It's not.

There are multiple attacks to closed lines. There are "air-scraping" cuts that are targeted at nothing but the air between the fighters. There is an extended corps-a-corps in which nothing happens but the fighters smiling at each other.

That fight is in the grand tradition of Paddy Crane - Errol Flynn's stuntman - a man who readily admitted that his fighting had nothing to do with reality and EVERYTHING with looking cool.

[dehro]

If bashing aside heavier weapons were so easy, zweihanders would be never developed - soldier would knock the pikes aside with something lighter.

they weren't developed for fencing in the first place, but to be used against the enemy's pikes (not for parying but for crushing the pikes...with a shorter sword you can deflect, but the enemy still has got his pike..with a zweihander you can disarm him).

[EvilElitest]

No. It's not.

There are multiple attacks to closed lines. There are "air-scraping" cuts that are targeted at nothing but the air between the fighters. There is an extended corps-a-corps in which nothing happens but the fighters smiling at each other.

That fight is in the grand tradition of Paddy Crane - Errol Flynn's stuntman - a man who readily admitted that his fighting had nothing to do with reality and EVERYTHING with looking cool.

More realistic than 300
from
EE

[dehro]

He did actually, the sword was broken i believe. But aren't we using both at best equipment?

They could resort to fistycuffs
from
EE

I can see a Pratchett quote hovering in the air...

but no, if you read the first post, it sets the rules quite clearly

[Mephisto]

I doubt it would be decided in a real "fair" fight... But in a straight up fencing match, I'd have to go with Zorro.:smallbiggrin:

All Zorro does is Flynning. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Flynning) And I wouldn't bet on smallsword vs. longsword.

[Swordguy]

they weren't developed for fencing in the first place, but to be used against the enemy's pikes (not for parying but for crushing the pikes...with a shorter sword you can deflect, but the enemy still has got his pike..with a zweihander you can disarm him).

Ever held a pike? You can't cut through it unless you're more lucky than you have any right being. This is to say nothing about the iron banding that tended to extend some distance down the shaft to stop attempts to do exactly that.

Batting pikes away to force an "entry hole"? Sure. Cutting through more than 1 pike at a time (which is necessary, as the 6 others pointed at you will skewer you while you cut)? Nope, sorry.

Additionally, zweihanders aren't relevant to this discussion. Even if Aragorn doesn't have Andruil, I'd give him the sword seen in the first section of FotR, which has similar dimensions and handling characteristics. Again, one of these (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spotxvii.html). It is, for lack of a better term, a "bastard sword". It is most emphatically "not" a zweihander.

[thorgrim29]

About the Zorro fight.... of course it's flashy, and tacky, but I know a couple of master sabre fencers who could'nt pull it off. The thing is, I realise a real fight would'nt go like that, with smallswords you'd probably want to nick the other guy's hand a couple of times, so his grip gets slippy, and then go for the elbow, with an épée (wich I've been practicing for the last 3 years), thats pretty much the modus operandi, go for the wrist, if it does'nt work, the elbow, if it does'nt work, the shoulder. My actual point was, that that fight is both way cooler and more realistic then, say, pirates of the Carrabeans (sp?), or kingdom of heaven (what kind of moron opens the fight with an overhead guard? Maybe in a 1 on 1, but in a battle?). And I've found that a corps à corp between opponents of similar strenght and skill can be pretty hard to break.

[Swordguy]

And I've found that a corps à corp between opponents of similar strenght and skill can be pretty hard to break.

If one of the participants isn't kicked, punched, pommeled, or gouged in the first 2 seconds of a corps a corps, neither fighter is any good.

Both Zorro and Aragorn are "very good".

[Ozymandias]

More realistic than 300
from
EE

It's kind of ridiculous how you hold these grudges against modern-day flashy cinematography and think that Flynning is somehow better because it's "more realistic". I mean, everyone can respect opinions, but you should really stop making contentions like "Modern movies have giant swords (do they? other than Advent Children?) and blocking bullets." when it's not related to the conversation at hand whatsoever. There's a difference between stating your opinion and tangentially condemning society for not having your taste in faux-swordplay.

On topic, fencing is cool. I think Zorro has a much better chance to be aware of Aragorn's style (through study; he has access to better records) but I bet it'd be pistols that'd win in a straight fight. Unless Aragorn bow'd him to death, first.

[dehro]

if it goes long distance, zorro better be good with his pistol..because by the times he reloads aragorn will have showered him with arrows.

[Dervag]

On topic, fencing is cool. I think Zorro has a much better chance to be aware of Aragorn's style (through study; he has access to better records)
Z: "Ah, so you are using Bonelli's defense against me"
A: "Who's Bonelli, strange masked person?"
Z: "Well, Bonelli is appropriate for a modified hand-and-a-half sword, such as yours..."
[fence slash fence slash]
Z: "Unless your opponent has studied his Agrippa..."
Z: "Which I have!"
[stabbity]

[Caracol]

Aragorn would win.

These X vs X threads are strange as hell. I'm waiting for a Saruman Vs Godzilla one.

[Midnighter1021]

I'm going to go with Aragorn in this one but if The Dread Pirate Roberts were to sail up and begin fighting now who would win that one between himself and Zorro?

[Dervag]

I'm going to go with Aragorn in this one but if The Dread Pirate Roberts were to sail up and begin fighting now who would win that one between himself and Zorro?Roberts if they're fighting over Buttercup. Zorro if they're fighting for the freedom of California.

If they're fighting over anything else, they eventually end up joining forces after they realize that they are evenly matched.

[EvilElitest]

It's kind of ridiculous how you hold these grudges against modern-day flashy cinematography and think that Flynning is somehow better because it's "more realistic". I mean, everyone can respect opinions, but you should really stop making contentions like "Modern movies have giant swords (do they? other than Advent Children?) and blocking bullets." when it's not related to the conversation at hand whatsoever. There's a difference between stating your opinion and tangentially condemning society for not having your taste in faux-swordplay.

On topic, fencing is cool. I think Zorro has a much better chance to be aware of Aragorn's style (through study; he has access to better records) but I bet it'd be pistols that'd win in a straight fight. Unless Aragorn bow'd him to death, first.

Zorro's fencing isn't realistic, but it has the illusion of doing so. I prefer that to something you might see in the Pirates trilogy, or the new star wars, where it gets to be so absurd that it is obviously just there to impress easily impressible people. At least both of the Flynning blokes are on the ground and not resorting to back flips or jumping out the window. Personally, my favorite fight scenses are those from the French Film Excalibur. Super awesome fight scenes that we seen in modern day can be good (Curse of the Golden Flower) but get to the point where it is simple absurd, doubly so when people insist it is the way real fighting works (300, Legolas' actions in LOTRS, House of Flying daggers, no i'm not kidding there)
from
EE

[Selrahc]

Zorro's fencing isn't realistic, but it has the illusion of doing so. I prefer that to something you might see in the Pirates trilogy, or the new star wars, where it gets to be so absurd that it is obviously just there to impress easily impressible people. At least both of the Flynning blokes are on the ground and not resorting to back flips or jumping out the window. Personally, my favorite fight scenses are those from the French Film Excalibur. Super awesome fight scenes that we seen in modern day can be good (Curse of the Golden Flower) but get to the point where it is simple absurd, doubly so when people insist it is the way real fighting works (300, Legolas' actions in LOTRS, House of Flying daggers, no i'm not kidding there)

So if its unrealistic in a way that you like then its fine, but if its unrealistic in a way that you disaprove of then it must mean that its junk designed for bufoons?

[Bayar]

Aragon will kick Zorro's ass. Period.

[Illiterate Scribe]

More realistic than 300
from
EE

My thrown bronze shield to your face disagrees.

[GoC]

I still imagine Aragorn choosing some battlefield move he learned against uruk hai (100 kg each, raging, armored, served in packs of 20) and swarms of southrons on Don Alejandro, using the pommel or the crossguard of Anduril and tripping/grappling, but a fair and plain swordplay session is not out of question.

Minor point:
I think Aragorn kills thousands of orcs by attacking an encampment by killing the guards and anyone else he can get to then retreating. An hour later he comes back and kills some more. Only an idiot or someone with a deathwish goes against large groups of orcs when there are better ways of killing them.
You don't get to be over 100 years old by charging headlong into orc hordes.

[warty goblin]

More realistic than 300
from
EE

Yeah, well two six year olds trying to hit each other with sticks is a more realistic depiction of melee combat than 300. The Set M of all movies with more realistic sword fights than 300 is, I'm afraid, pretty broad.

I'm not defending 300 here, I hated it every bit as much as you did, just for, from what it sounds like, entirely different reasons.

[Rowanomicon]

If they spot each other from a distance then Zorro is dead as 19th century pistol accuracy is nothing compared to an elven bow. Even if Zorro has extreamly good aim and has used that same pistol for years, learning it's quirks, not to mention having a masterfully mad epistol so that it's quirks are relatively minimal it will only be very effective at ranges much shorter than Aragorn's bow will be effective at. Also I bet Aragorn could still fir an arrow after being hit (unless it was in the eye and I'm not going to give that kind of luck to Zorro in this) and could nearly empty his quiver in the time it too Zorrow to fire twice.

I'de give it to Aragorn in melee as well due to his superior physical condition (he is of Numenorian decent after all), his weapon, and his experience.

That's not to say that Zorro is a slouch in physical conditioning or experience, but I don't think he's got what it takes to take down Aragorn in combat.

Also, as I said before (I think I did, maybe it was in my long post that the internet ate...), the deciding factor for me is that Aragorn can stay awake and keep Zorro awake for days on end before finishing it once Zorro is exausted to the point of collapse.

[dehro]

So if its unrealistic in a way that you like then its fine, but if its unrealistic in a way that you disaprove of then it must mean that its junk designed for bufoons?
can't help but second this.. EE, I've seen you being more reasonable than this..come on...

[Swordguy]

can't help but second this.. EE, I've seen you being more reasonable than this..come on...

Really? Where? :smallconfused:



Super awesome fight scenes that we seen in modern day can be good...but get to the point where it is simple absurd, doubly so when people insist it is the way real fighting works (...House of Flying daggers...)

Seriously? Seriously?!

It's a damn Wuxia film! The whole point of the genre is to have unrealistic, magical fights! Nobody with two brain cells to rub together will ever say that that's how fighting works. If they make the claim, you're completely within your rights to hit them with a rolled-up newspaper until they admit that it's a fantasy movie.

[Wardog]

a masterfully mad epistol

I'm trying to imagine what a "masterfully mad e-pistol" would look like/ be capable of.

What ever it is, though, I'm sure it would be pretty darn awesome.

Probably has all sorts of crazy gadgets and gizmos built in to it.

Possibly deals chaos/electrical damage.

(Probably both).


Anyway, its been quite some time since such a minor typo conjured up such wacky ideas in me head.


Carry on :)

[thorgrim29]

If one of the participants isn't kicked, punched, pommeled, or gouged in the first 2 seconds of a corps a corps, neither fighter is any good.

Both Zorro and Aragorn are "very good".

Yea, good point there.... I was thinking of more civilised combat.... in a real, kill you before you kill me combat, a corps à corps is not a good idea obviously, but it does kind of fit the show-offy combat style.

[Vikazc]

Zorro. hands down. Assuming day to day life, Aragorn would have to find out who Zorro actually is first, which would take time that Zorro could easily use to ambush him, and thats assuming its even possible for Aragorn to find out, since almost no one else ever has.

If they were out looking for each other, it's not like Aragorn can realisticall lay seige to Zorros cave for 4 days before heading in. Even if that wasn't idiotic, that isn't and never has been how Aragorn operates. He's not that brand of coward, the only thing that holds him back is certain death and thats when he calls Gandalf for the artillery.

The arrow stuff is just BS on top of BS because Aragorn as the pinnacle of man kind is also honorable and would approach a single opponent in an honorable fashion, which most of us have already agreed in a fair sword fight, its at the very least advantage zorro.

If you're going to argue this you have to at least pretend the heroes would act like themselves, this isn't a play by play where you get to OOC decide exactly how to win.

As for fighting styles, while the bastard sword does carry a certain advantage in power and weight, that all comes at the cost of predictability. A duel between two truely skilled opponents is much less flashy then people seem to think becaus most feignts or overt attacks are outright suicidal. In the same way that any attempt by zorro to just stab Aragorn in the throat would lead o catching a sword in his ribs, and power swing by aragorn is going to leave him right ****ed when zorro ducks.

Theres a good bit of finesse that can be pulled off in any fight, but the real skill comes down to footwork. You cant make a move with advertising it with your hand motions and shoulder movements, the real surprises are positioning, and in most any situation I'd say zorro is more likely to catch Aragorn with a surprise move then vice versa.

[Ossian]

I have to agree on the slight advantage Zorro has over Aragorn on a fencing stage, but your setting is a bit untrue to the OP. You might as well invite Aragorn to a Flamengo dance contest (although that could deprive you of sleep for good). Plus, failing to factor the chasm in physical prowess between them is very unfair to Aragorn.

Zorro is (whichever actor you like or just the books' character) very fit, foolhardy, reckless, agile and quick. Granted.

Aragorn is not even a 100% human. He partially belongs to a different species, although he definitely looks like a man. He has spend three times de la vega's life span in travels and battles, fighting monstrosities and keeping the fight for days on end. He has the fitness and combat resolve of the age of Myth.

Not saying that he could benchpress 300 kiloes without breaking a sweat, but he is definitely a force to be reckoned with, as on the Pelennor the foes, after some display of mettle and skill, didn't even dare to approach him or look at him in the eyes.

O.

[dehro]

Zorro. hands down. Assuming day to day life, Aragorn would have to find out who Zorro actually is first, which would take time that Zorro could easily use to ambush him, and thats assuming its even possible for Aragorn to find out, since almost no one else ever has.

If they were out looking for each other, it's not like Aragorn can realisticall lay seige to Zorros cave for 4 days before heading in. Even if that wasn't idiotic, that isn't and never has been how Aragorn operates. He's not that brand of coward, the only thing that holds him back is certain death and thats when he calls Gandalf for the artillery.
you are talking plot here..I don't think that should even be an issue... I'd rather consider it a "battle mode: on" topic.


The arrow stuff is just BS on top of BS because Aragorn as the pinnacle of man kind is also honorable and would approach a single opponent in an honorable fashion, which most of us have already agreed in a fair sword fight, its at the very least advantage zorro.
how is shooting your enemy dishonorable? if anything, Aragorn is a practical man. if his "mission" is to defeat the fox, he'll do whatever it takes.
if we consider Zorro as the paradigm of fencing and swordmanship, that would reasonably well counter the obvious phisical advantages of Aragorn (who however is one hell of a swordman himself)... you must however also factor the "aura of awesomeness" that plays in favour of Aragorn (I mean the natural "power aura" that surrounds a heir of isildur when he shows what he's truly worth)
the fact that he's very much more experienced than Zorro who (I'll just remind you all) has a natural talent for fencing but has learned it quite late in his life, according to most accounts...as a student in Spain.
he has learned his Agrippa allright, but I'm sure that in his several decades of constant fighting, scouting, training etc. etc. Aragorn must have developed a few tricks on his own.


As for fighting styles, while the bastard sword does carry a certain advantage in power and weight, that all comes at the cost of predictability. A duel between two truely skilled opponents is much less flashy then people seem to think becaus most feignts or overt attacks are outright suicidal. In the same way that any attempt by zorro to just stab Aragorn in the throat would lead o catching a sword in his ribs, and power swing by aragorn is going to leave him right ****ed when zorro ducks.
so it all comes down to who will break the defences of the other one... I don't see how that is a "hands down win" for Zorro.

[Swordguy]

Additionally, it's pretty clear that the main strength of both men is their swordsmanship. It seems cheap either way to simply say "he shoots the other guy". It's rather missing the point, isn't it?

Let it be decided on their blades and the strength of their arm.

[Ossian]

Well, if less effective, that's certainly more honorable and way cooler. After all, pistols and arrows before then have been considered (for a bunch of reasons) the "weapons of cowards". This issue aside (please, no argument on how the longbow changed history as much as the stirrups :smallbiggrin: ) theylet's not forget that A. and Z. are heroes with blades. Shooting wouldn't make them become gangstas, but if we stay a bit "in character" neither Aragorn nor Zorro would want to dishonor the other guy with a shaft (or a bullet) in their backs. We love them because they are the good guys, right? :smallcool:

Since we're on page four, I re-state my support for the dunadan. 1 way or the other the blood of Elendil will surface, and the fox will have to sportively grasp the hand that Aragorn will lend him to stand up from where he landed face down, dust off and accept a pat on the shoulder. After that, with both a bit scratched but nothing worse, comraderie will ensue 100% :smallbiggrin:

[Duaneyo1]

There's a couple long sword vs. rapier ( or other small thrusting sword) in Rob Roy. That seem to follow the basic concept of what would happen. The guy with rapier ducks, dodges, dinks and dodges and then goes for hands shoulders, legs of the guy swinging the big heavy sword. Sometimes the guy with big sword just chops the dandy in half when he gets pissed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaslN1NiT0

[Kelp]

Well, Aragorn would probably win, but Zorro's cape gives him extra points

[stm177]

Aragorn would win, but I'd prefer it if Zorro would win.

What would be more interesting is a dance-off between Viggo Mortensen and Antonio Banderas with the female partners of their choice. :smallsmile:

[EvilElitest]

can't help but second this.. EE, I've seen you being more reasonable than this..come on...
Fine fine fine, i enjoy it because it is better directed generally and more coherent



It's a damn Wuxia film! The whole point of the genre is to have unrealistic, magical fights! Nobody with two brain cells to rub together will ever say that that's how fighting works. If they make the claim, you're completely within your rights to hit them with a rolled-up newspaper until they admit that it's a fantasy movie.

I didn't have too, one of them tried fighting me with a style like that, and broke his leg, I didn't even do anything.

from
EE

[Swordguy]

I didn't have too, one of them tried fighting me with a style like that, and broke his leg, I didn't even do anything.

from
EE


Bwaha-ha-ha! Tell me you got video!

[Rowanomicon]

Haha! I'd love to see that! Please tell me you have footage, EE.

A dance-off would be cool, but a horse race would be better...wait! They can break-dance-fight like in Zoolander!

I agree that this should be decided by sword rather than bow and pistol.

Of course a "masterfully mad e-pistol" would give a clear win to the hand that held it. (That's bloody hilarious!)

It's an even better typo then when "does not" ends up as "doe snot."

I definitely do not think it's fair to say that Zorro is a more skilled combatant than Aragorn. With a smallsword, yes. I've already concede that in a straight fight where both were wielding identical smallswords Zorro would win (unless Aragorn managed to grapple him or something similar).

Ruling out suprise attacks rules out a win for Zorro. His only real chance is to suprise Aragorn. Incidentally I don't think we should rule out sneak attacks as Zorro has some Rogue levels.

Also the OP sets the stage quite well. It's not every day life. They are along in a terrarium where half of it is familiar to Aragorn and half is familiar to Zorro.

Zorro has shown that he often goes into other people's houses to fight them. In fact he never fights at home if he can help it. So I think we would wander into Aragorn's territry a little bit. Ambushing (or setting traps for) Aragorn here would be nigh impossible and any combat here would end in victory for the big A.

Aragorn has been shown to scout out enemy territory and, if need be, take the fight to the enemy's doorstep. So I think he would also rove into Zorro's territory a little. Ambushing (or setting traps for) Aragorn here would be possible, but still not easy. Aragorn wont fall for simple traps such as tripwires. It would have to be quite well hidden. I don't remember trapmaking as something Zorro was masterful at (although he did have a rocket powered hang glider in one episode of a cartoon that I remember...). Also Aragorn is not like all the Zorro mook villains that run around corners blindfolded with their sword still sheathed. Also Zorro may not see Aragorn coming from as far away as Aragorn will notice him (unless Zorro is waiting peeking out a window in a dark room with as little of his head showing as possible.

Also Aragorn can play it super defencive if he feel threatened by his opponent's skill and, as I said, keep the fight going for days without tire.

I love the fox, always have, almost as long as I've loved Tolkien's work, but no matter how this plays out I see this goign to Aragorn at least three quarters of the time (as it is layed out by the OP).

[EvilElitest]

sadly no, but i can tell you how it happened


Basically i was talking about 300 (I hate the film with passion, even Uwe Boll films are better) and the fight scenes in it. Somebody mentioned how it was odd that Spartans were doing kung fu fighting and i said that it wasn't real kung -fu fighting, just kinda cheap copies of Wuxia films and i was started talking about the film Hero, House of Flying daggers and and anime fighting. THen these annoying little kids at the table next to mine started insisting i was wrong. Their points


1. Kattanas are in fact the best swords in the world, and can cut through European armor and weapons.
2. It is possible to block a bullet with a sword.
3. Swordsmen are are good against guns if they are good enough
4. flips, jump kicks, and spins are good in a fight as they throw an enemy off balance
5. It is perfectly possible to kill somebody with a five point palms or simliar technique
6. Calvary can destroy anything
7. Wuxia styled combat is totally possible and is in fact the best form of combat
8. Ninjas wore those pajama costumes in real life
9. Japanese fighting is the best in the world (yes better than the British guns
10. People can realistically go on fighting when stabbed in the side or stomach, as long as they don't get their head cut off/heart stabbed through
11. 300 is totally historically accurate (yes the Persians were all demonic and had ninjas)
Now i'm not a marshal artist of any kind, and i have had no combat training. I do have a tendency to get in fights however, and i'm damn stubborn . I'm around 5'7 and broad but i'm a little plump and not at all athletic, wear glasses, and i have bad asthma. So after my insistence that Wuxia's style fighting is cool looking but totally useless in real life, the largest guy told me he'd show me wrong. So we face off in outside near a stair case. Now this guy is smaller and skinnier than i am but he is wiry and i know he took gymnastics and track, so i'm looking at my friends and going "Ok, if he doesn't know Wuxia, but if he knows some real matrial arts i'm in trouble). So i put my fists in front of my face in a boxing style manner and he puts his hands up in semi sterotypical kung fu style and spreads his legs out and starts trying to circle me. I'm moving hoping he will attack first and let me grapple him, i'm bigger and heavier so i would have the advantage. However he suddenly lets out a ninja yell and jumps up and tries to jump kick me in the face. I am totally shocked and i kinda put my hands up, his foot bounces off my arms and he falls backwards onto the stair case and hurts his leg. It was pretty pathetic.
from
EE

[Ozymandias]

You know what's even stupider than those hackneyed misconceptions?

Getting into a fight over them. Both parties.

[EvilElitest]

You know what's even stupider than those hackneyed misconceptions?

Getting into a fight over them. Both parties.

and people call me arrogant and pretentious. . If this dude wanted to show me that Wuxia fighting is in fact possible, who am i to complain. If he could have pulled it off, it would have been totally worth being proved wrong
from
EE

[Ozymandias]

and people call me arrogant and pretentious. . If this dude wanted to show me that Wuxia fighting is in fact possible, who am i to complain. If he could have pulled it off, it would have been totally worth being proved wrong
from
EE

Firstly, you are arrogant and pretentious. I can be too, but I have better punctuation etc.

Secondly, winning a fight doesn't prove anything except whose combination of prowess and luck happened to win in that instance. If he'd been a black-belt in judo and snapped your arm (or whatever) wuxia still wouldn't be real martial arts. Fighting over it is reckless nonsense.

He was clearly unskilled, so if he'd hurt you or himself seriously (which he did) through accident it wouldn't "worth it". You get to have a laugh, he gets a cast for a month. I don't understand how you can attempt to justify this.

Thirdly, "who[sic] am I to complain."? You are perfectly capable of walking away. If you have a pathological martyr/god complex wherein you refuse to let other people disagree with you (to the point of fighting), that's really your fault.

[EvilElitest]

Firstly, you are arrogant and pretentious. I can be too, but I have better punctuation etc.

Secondly, winning a fight doesn't prove anything except whose combination of prowess and luck happened to win in that instance. If he'd been a black-belt in judo and snapped your arm (or whatever) wuxia still wouldn't be real martial arts. Fighting over it is reckless nonsense.

He was clearly unskilled, so if he'd hurt you or himself seriously (which he did) through accident it wouldn't "worth it". You get to have a laugh, he gets a cast for a month. I don't understand how you can attempt to justify this.

Thirdly, "who[sic] am I to complain."? You are perfectly capable of walking away. If you have a pathological martyr/god complex wherein you refuse to let other people disagree with you (to the point of fighting), that's really your fault.

Alright, I apologize, i'm in a bad mood (bed ridden), your tone annoyed me. However i did honestly want to see if he could pull off such moves. I called an ambulance, the dude was fine

And for the record, yes i'm arrogant and pretentious, but i'm honest about it
from
EE

[Swordguy]

Alright, I apologize, i'm in a bad mood (bed ridden), your tone annoyed me. However i did honestly want to see if he could pull off such moves. I called an ambulance, the dude was fine

And for the record, yes i'm arrogant and pretentious, but i'm honest about it
from
EE

You should probably sig that, too. :smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

You should probably sig that, too. :smallbiggrin:

Good idea, i wish had more space however, i'm sig is at its limit
from
EE

[Rowanomicon]

That's hilarious.
I only wish I could have seen it.

I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what looks cooler, but some things just simply are not as effective when it comes real combat. It's a fac, not an opinion.

EE, just remember it's probably best to ignore most of the things people call your "peers" in highschool. Paying them any heed will only end up in someone suffering, of course some times it's funny...

So anyway, back on topic.

Zorro tries to prove to Aragorn that Wuxia fighting is effecive and breaks his leg. Aragorn then dies laughing. Zorrow wins!

[GoC]

sadly no, but i can tell you how it happened


Basically i was talking about 300 (I hate the film with passion, even Uwe Boll films are better) and the fight scenes in it. Somebody mentioned how it was odd that Spartans were doing kung fu fighting and i said that it wasn't real kung -fu fighting, just kinda cheap copies of Wuxia films and i was started talking about the film Hero, House of Flying daggers and and anime fighting. THen these annoying little kids at the table next to mine started insisting i was wrong. Their points


1. Kattanas are in fact the best swords in the world, and can cut through European armor and weapons.
2. It is possible to block a bullet with a sword.
3. Swordsmen are are good against guns if they are good enough
4. flips, jump kicks, and spins are good in a fight as they throw an enemy off balance
5. It is perfectly possible to kill somebody with a five point palms or simliar technique
6. Calvary can destroy anything
7. Wuxia styled combat is totally possible and is in fact the best form of combat
8. Ninjas wore those pajama costumes in real life
9. Japanese fighting is the best in the world (yes better than the British guns
10. People can realistically go on fighting when stabbed in the side or stomach, as long as they don't get their head cut off/heart stabbed through
11. 300 is totally historically accurate (yes the Persians were all demonic and had ninjas)
Now i'm not a marshal artist of any kind, and i have had no combat training. I do have a tendency to get in fights however, and i'm damn stubborn . I'm around 5'7 and broad but i'm a little plump and not at all athletic, wear glasses, and i have bad asthma. So after my insistence that Wuxia's style fighting is cool looking but totally useless in real life, the largest guy told me he'd show me wrong. So we face off in outside near a stair case. Now this guy is smaller and skinnier than i am but he is wiry and i know he took gymnastics and track, so i'm looking at my friends and going "Ok, if he doesn't know Wuxia, but if he knows some real matrial arts i'm in trouble). So i put my fists in front of my face in a boxing style manner and he puts his hands up in semi sterotypical kung fu style and spreads his legs out and starts trying to circle me. I'm moving hoping he will attack first and let me grapple him, i'm bigger and heavier so i would have the advantage. However he suddenly lets out a ninja yell and jumps up and tries to jump kick me in the face. I am totally shocked and i kinda put my hands up, his foot bounces off my arms and he falls backwards onto the stair case and hurts his leg. It was pretty pathetic.
from
EE

LOL!
You were right (they were wrong) on all except 10. 10 has happened many times but it's rare enough to turn ordinary soldiers into legends.

Why instead of admitting you're arrogant and opinionated don't you try and change? Too stubborn?

[EvilElitest]

That's hilarious.
I only wish I could have seen it.

I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion as to what looks cooler, but some things just simply are not as effective when it comes real combat. It's a fac, not an opinion.

EE, just remember it's probably best to ignore most of the things people call your "peers" in highschool. Paying them any heed will only end up in someone suffering, of course some times it's funny...

So anyway, back on topic.

Zorro tries to prove to Aragorn that Wuxia fighting is effecive and breaks his leg. Aragorn then dies laughing. Zorrow wins!

LOL, Zorro deserves victory, his cunning plan wins:smallbiggrin:

Yeah, my peers do cause themselves pain for my amusement


LOL!
You were right (they were wrong) on all except 10. 10 has happened many times but it's rare enough to turn ordinary soldiers into legends.

Why instead of admitting you're arrogant and opinionated don't you try and change? Too stubborn
1. True,
2. Arrogant and pretentious not optioned
3. Really i don't care honestly. Plenty of people are egomaniacs who try to deny it and i just openly accept it and focus on the points.
from
EE

[dehro]

it's pretty hilarious...but still... I don't think any result of this "fight" would have proved anyone's point since it wouldn't have any connection with the topic you lot were squabbling about.
this reason alone should have made anyone with two braincells withdraw from a useless confrontation.
my best bet is that you were both set up by your friends who enjoy seing people hurt each other as long as it doesn't happen to them.
the fact that you have no martial training and experience whatsoever is your only excuse (except maybe young age and more alcohol you can take) for not calling of the fight..since anyone who has, takes these things a bit more seriously and does think of the possible consequences.
as much out of proportion a result a broken leg is, it could have been his or your skull, that banged on the staircase..with far more serious, or even permanent, consequences..
few things bug me more than random violence applied by people who don't know the first thing about fighting. stick to what you know, and you won't need to fight over it.
there is a reason wherefore any self-respecting martial instructor begins by teaching his students that, in almost any case, there are better options than fighting.
there is a reason wherefore most tv shows containing stunts do explain that said stunts should not be tried at home; and that there are professionals to do these things and are insured, in case something goes wrong.

also, wuxia doesn't exist as a fighting style, per se...and most moves are aided by trampolines, wires and bluescreens.
since apparently you nor the other bloke know what you are talking about, both of you really should have known better than to fight over it...

it's a bit like two farmers arguing about whalehunting techniques... almost funny, right on to the point where ambulances are called and someone has medical bills to pay.

Edit: sorry about the rant, it isn't even addressed specifically to you, but rather to all those who put themselves in the situation you got in out of stupidity... what you displayed was a carelessness, to put it mildly, totally deprived of common sense. again..I'm sorry for the rant, but I stay by every word.

[Hung Lo]

This is a pretty interesting discussion...

But who wins in a three-corner match of Aragorn vs. Zorro vs. Belkar?

Belkar barely has any ranks in Survival (so his wilderness skills are poorer than A or Z), he has an appallingly low Wisdom (so no spells), and only one known magic item, his Ring of Jumping.

Being size Small, he has even poorer weapons (probably masterwork daggers and leather armor). In his favor, he has high levels of Hide and Move Silently.

But Belkar is the sexy shoeless god of stabbination... and he's EVIL! :smallbiggrin:

[Swordguy]

This is a pretty interesting discussion...

But who wins in a three-corner match of Aragorn vs. Zorro vs. Belkar?

Belkar barely has any ranks in Survival (so his wilderness skills are poorer than A or Z), he has an appallingly low Wisdom (so no spells), and only one known magic item, his Ring of Jumping.

Being size Small, he has even poorer weapons (probably masterwork daggers and leather armor). In his favor, he has high levels of Hide and Move Silently.

But Belkar is the sexy shoeless god of stabbination... and he's EVIL! :smallbiggrin:

Aragorn and Zorro, both Good, polite types, double-team the diminutive ranger, take him down, and go out for beer.

[Hung Lo]

I just thought of another advantage that Belkar has over Aragorn - most of the halflings Aragorn has ever known (except the companions of the Ring) are happy, jolly common-folk.

That could be a fatal mistake...

Aragon: "Do not be afraid, little one. I am a friend."
Belkar: "Meh." <five-foot steps>

Stabbity stab stab! :smallsmile:

[Rowanomicon]

Aragon: "Do not be afraid, little one. I am a friend."
Belkar: "Meh." <five-foot steps>

Stabbity stab stab! :smallsmile:

Bahahaha

That would be great. The Giant should do a comic where OotS encounters the Fellowship... hmm... he could also do some with other well know fantasy adventuring parties...

[GoC]

Belkar wins so easily it's not even funny... it's hilarious!:smallbiggrin:
Seriously he chopped of a powerful assassins head with a single stroke of his dagger! How cool is that?

[Hung Lo]

Belkar is good for dozens of low-HD hobgoblins, though he gets very hurt in the process. He killed some wights... what else has he killed lately?

Zorro (from the movies) might do the same in a long drawn out chase, merrily wisecracking and stabbing gobbos on the run. But Zorro doesn't seem built for all-out combat. Hmm... he could be a Dashing Swordsman... :smallsmile:

Zorro has probably never faced an opponent as homicidal as Belkar. Z could use his trickiness to get away from Belkar, but he probably couldn't kill B in a straight fight. Similiarly, B probably doesn't kill Zorro except by betrayal or ambush - Zorro likely flees to his next exciting chase scene.

B would lose to Aragorn (he is the frakkin' King, after all) in a straight fight, but A would lose lots and lots of blood. B would surely take the cheap shot if he can get it - not that Aragorn, being wise and experienced, would be an easy mark.

But A's fondness for hugging halflings could be his undoing... :smalltongue:

EDIT: Yet you cannot discount the impact of Mr. Scruffy "Clings to Enemy's Face while Brutal Stabbing Happens Below"!

[GoC]

B would lose to Aragorn (he is the frakkin' King, after all) in a straight fight, but A would lose lots and lots of blood. B would surely take the cheap shot if he can get it - not that Aragorn, being wise and experienced, would be an easy mark.

William the conquerer may have been a frakkin' king but he still loses to Belkar. I've say Aragorn gets his killed because if Belkar can chop of a man's head with a dagger then his strikes are REALLY powerful.

[Ossian]

Aragorn's royal neck is 6 feet away from B's daggers, and a few inches above there is the "gaze of kings from Erenna" that drains the joints dry of their liquids in the baddies. Belkar is a bit like a rabid wolverine, enough to take on a dashing Don with fencing and chasing skills, not enough to deal with royalty....

[dehro]

zorro is out of the picture right from the start. he has no experience of hobbits and will go at B. like this "oh, the nice kid is playing soldiers...but you really should put down mom's cuttlery or you might hurt yourse...aaaaargh!"

[Hallavast]

William the conquerer may have been a frakkin' king but he still loses to Belkar. I've say Aragorn gets his killed because if Belkar can chop of a man's head with a dagger then his strikes are REALLY powerful.

:smallconfused: ...

HIS HEAD WAS ATTATCHED BY A STICK!

[Hung Lo]

zorro is out of the picture right from the start. he has no experience of hobbits and will go at B. like this "oh, the nice kid is playing soldiers...but you really should put down mom's cuttlery or you might hurt yourse...aaaaargh!"

ROFL - bye, bye, Zorro! :smalltongue:

[GoC]

:smallconfused: ...

HIS HEAD WAS ATTATCHED BY A STICK!

...
Point.