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View Full Version : Dual Progression Gestalt "cheese": opinions?



TheMeanDM
2008-02-12, 09:36 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71548&page=5

Let's talk about this a little bit outside of that thread.

In the Gestalt rules it says:



Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.


So let's look at them in a little more detail, and see *why* they recommend prohibiting them:

Eldritch Knight:

Pretty easy to determine why this should be prohibited--FULL BAB and 90% Caster Level increase.

Arcane Trickster:
Sneak Attack progression as thief (stacking) and 100% Caster Level increase.

Mystic Theurege:
Again, pretty obvious when it increases, by 100%, two casting classes (divine and arcane).

Now...some other classes that aren't in the SRD that could (dare I say, should) be prohibited:

Abjurant Champion:

Full BAB for 5 levels, and 100% Caster Level increases for 5 levels.

It's a great PRC, it really is. It doesn't *need* either one to be full...that's just icing on the cake.

Eldritch/Divine Theurege:
Again, pretty obvious when they advance 2x 'casting' classes each level (Warlock/Arcane or Warlock/Divine).

Ultimate Magus:
Should be called Ultimate Cheesus, really :smalltongue:
Again, fairly obvious because it advances Prepared-caster levels and Spontaneous-caster levels.

******

So what can we determine from this brief examination:

PRC's that advance 2x class features (BAB, Caster Level, Sneak Attack, etc) are not recommended for Gestalt characters.

Discuss!

tyckspoon
2008-02-12, 09:52 PM
I'm inclined to ignore BAB as a 'class' that is being progressed; you can still only get at most +1 BAB/level by the base rules of gestalt progression, unlike the possibility of doubling caster level gains or other class features like Skirmish or Sneak Attack. Consider an Eldritch Knight//Fighter- he's doubling up on.. nothing. He can't stack base attack bonus. As long as the DM is sensible about it and makes sure he isn't letting something like Wizard//Eldritch Knight happens, there's nothing abusable going on there at all (er..beyond normal wizardly activities, anyway.)

Zincorium
2008-02-12, 09:59 PM
As with anything, if the DM is willing and able to roll with it, you can play with just about any rules.

I've personally done an extremely high powered game where my players were allowed to not only select two different prestige classes at the same time, but could have one of those be a dual progression.

Probably to the surprise and shock of some of the people on the forums, it worked great. The players were initially really pumped up and excited about being so powerful, but quickly they realized that for the most part they still had weaknesses that they couldn't do anything about.

No matter what choices you make in gestalt, the most hit points you can have is 12 + con per level. The highest base attack bonus is the same as a fighter. And you can't get higher level spells than a regular character of the same level. So what you're left with is unparalleled versatility...but that too has a price.


But as far as their inclusion in a normal (if the term normal can be applied to gestalt) game... it really just breaks the spirit of the thing. You've already got the ability to go into two classes at once, isn't going into 2.75 or whatever when no-one else is just a little bit greedy?

MandibleBones
2008-02-12, 10:04 PM
Wizard//Eldritch Knight happens, there's nothing abusable going on there at all (er..beyond normal wizardly activities, anyway.)

For that matter, Wizard // Eldritch Knight isn't really an issue either, since the increase to wizard spellcasting only happens once. You'd gain a single additional level of spellcasting beyond what's normal for the EK, and one or two bonus feats from Wizard... which isn't all that bad compared to, say, WIS//SOR or Cleric//Swordsage.

I mean, gestalt is what it is, but if you're playing it anyway, EK isn't really that much of a problem.

Chronos
2008-02-12, 10:35 PM
For that matter, Wizard // Eldritch Knight isn't really an issue either, since the increase to wizard spellcasting only happens once. You'd gain a single additional level of spellcasting beyond what's normal for the EK, and one or two bonus feats from Wizard... which isn't all that bad compared to, say, WIS//SOR or Cleric//Swordsage.Where the problem comes in, is if someone starts off as, say, wizard//fighter, and then, once they meet the prereqs for Eldritch Knight, switch to Eldritch Knight//Cleric, or some such. Now, they're getting wizard progression, cleric progression, and full BAB, a three-for-the-price-of-two deal.

Talya
2008-02-12, 10:58 PM
If allowed, Mystic Theurge or Ultimate Magus really become terrifying in gestalt....because you don't actually need to sacrifice caster levels to use it. You end up after a few short levels advancing both casting classes on each side of the gestalt getting to advance them both on one side, while you take something big and strong on the other side...or yet another casting class.

For instance, with Ulltimate Magus, you can be:

Beguiler 10/Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 7//Wizard 10/Ultimate Magus 10

You'll never be a killer in melee, but you've got an initiator level of 13, cast as a 20 beguiler/20 wizard, and all your classes use intelligence as a primary score.

(I didn't bother to think that through far, but I like the idea off the top of my head.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-12, 10:59 PM
Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant10/Druid 7//Wizard 1/Beguiler 12/Ultimate Magus 7

:smallcool:

Hario
2008-02-13, 02:33 AM
Archivist5/Divine Oracle 2/Archivist 13//Wizard7/Mystic Theurge10/FateSpinner3

Not the most twinked, certainly not going into melee, but has the best of both worlds + evasion, Access to pretty much every spell in the game minus some bard spells (though most are on cleric list/domain)

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 02:55 AM
I think full BAB should count as a class feature for the sake of gestalt. Even though full BAB really isn't a class feature, what you can do by stacking it up next to something is too good. You really don't need to have a Wizard/Druid build with 18 BAB that only loses one casting level in each class.

Druid 6 / Wizard 1 / Druid +13 // Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 9 / Abjurant Champion 5

Is a build that has no right to exist.

And furthermore... people drop this restriction /and/ the no double-PrCing restriction? Look at what you've wrought!

{table=header]Level | Side A | Side B
ECL 1 | Druid 1 | Sorcerer 1
ECL 2 | Druid 2 | Sorcerer 2
ECL 3 | Druid 3 | Sorcerer 3
ECL 4 | Druid 4 | Sorcerer 4
ECL 5 | Rogue 1 | Wizard 1
ECL 6 | Ur-Priest 1 | Wizard 2
ECL 7 | Ur-Priest 2 | Wizard 3
ECL 8 | Arcane Hierophant 1 (DS) | Rogue 2
ECL 9 | Arcane Hierophant 2 (DS) | Mystic Theurge 1 (WU)
ECL 10 | Bard 1 | Mystic Theurge 2 (WU)
ECL 11 | Fochlucan Lyricist 1 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 3 (DS)
ECL 12 | Fochlucan Lyricist 2 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 4 (DS)
ECL 13 | Fochlucan Lyricist 3 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 5 (DS)
ECL 14 | Fochlucan Lyricist 4 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 6 (DS)
ECL 15 | Fochlucan Lyricist 5 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 7 (DS)
ECL 16 | Fochlucan Lyricist 6 (WU) | Arcane Hierophant 8 (DS)
ECL 17 | Fochlucan Lyricist 7 (WD) | Archmage 1 (S)
ECL 18 | Fochlucan Lyricist 8 (WD) | Archmage 2 (S)
ECL 19 | Fochlucan Lyricist 9 (WD) | Archmage 3 (S)
ECL 20 | Fochlucan Lyricist 10 (WD) | Archmage 4 (S)
[/table]

This build gets 16 BAB, 16th level Druid casting, 16th level Sorcerer casting, 15th level Wizard casting, 10th level Ur-Priest casting (that's 9th level spells), 16th level wild shaping, 11th level Bardic music, and 4 levels worth of archmage goodness. This isn't even the best possible build (losing a class to pick up higher level spells would be better), just the most ridiculous.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-13, 03:06 AM
Spellcasting in D&D is powerful enough already. You don't need to progress 3 classes at once, and you should never be allowed to. Ultimate Magus, Mystic Theurge and the like should be pursued in single class only. Obviously, D&D allows for 2 classes to be advanced at once however, or they would not exist at all.

BAB bonus, on the other hand, is not even a class feature. It's really only good for qualifying for PrC's and Feats. With the approprate spell you can give yourself full BAB anyway. Gaining that spell usually only takes a single Feat (Arcane Disciple(War) in most cases) to accomplish, if you have a decent arcane spellcaster level. So the entire progression boils down to being replaced with a Feat.

I'd also like to point out that a couple of those classes you mentioned require some pretty hefty entrance requirements. Arcane Trickster requires 25 skill ranks in mostly exclusively Rogue class skills, and 3rd level arcane spell casting. You end up losing a couple levels to Rogue and Wizard before you can even get into the PrC in the first place, so you'll be a few spell levels behind other wizards and not quite as good as a pure Rogue.

Mystic Theurge is even worse, since you have to sink in 3-4 levels of Cleric or Druid minimum, and either 3 levels of wizard or one level of wizard and a Feat. For which you get no class features beyond the spellcasting. You'll be at least two spell levels behind a pure wizard, and possibly one or two behind pure divine spell casters. And at level 10, it ends, leaving you to choose where to get 9th level spells. Even though it looks like a nice PrC, it's a raw deal.

The nature of gestalt however, makes these penalties somewhat less, which is why they seem more powerful.

Frosty
2008-02-13, 02:50 PM
+1 *agrees with Tokima*

Full BAB is not a valid class feature to be restricted. Do you consider Warriors to be a PC class?

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 03:05 PM
You know what, I had a huge post here arguing, but it doesn't matter.

I'm just glad I didn't play gestalt with people like you when it was first introduced to me, because I'd hate it now.

The Faceless
2008-02-13, 03:33 PM
i always wanted to try

Wiz 3/mystic theurge 10/psionic theurge 7//Cleric 3/Psion 10/IotSFV 7

or something similar.

Telonius
2008-02-13, 03:59 PM
Spellcasting in D&D is powerful enough already. You don't need to progress 3 classes at once, and you should never be allowed to. Ultimate Magus, Mystic Theurge and the like should be pursued in single class only. Obviously, D&D allows for 2 classes to be advanced at once however, or they would not exist at all.

BAB bonus, on the other hand, is not even a class feature. It's really only good for qualifying for PrC's and Feats. With the approprate spell you can give yourself full BAB anyway. Gaining that spell usually only takes a single Feat (Arcane Disciple(War) in most cases) to accomplish, if you have a decent arcane spellcaster level. So the entire progression boils down to being replaced with a Feat.

I'd also like to point out that a couple of those classes you mentioned require some pretty hefty entrance requirements. Arcane Trickster requires 25 skill ranks in mostly exclusively Rogue class skills, and 3rd level arcane spell casting. You end up losing a couple levels to Rogue and Wizard before you can even get into the PrC in the first place, so you'll be a few spell levels behind other wizards and not quite as good as a pure Rogue.

Mystic Theurge is even worse, since you have to sink in 3-4 levels of Cleric or Druid minimum, and either 3 levels of wizard or one level of wizard and a Feat. For which you get no class features beyond the spellcasting. You'll be at least two spell levels behind a pure wizard, and possibly one or two behind pure divine spell casters. And at level 10, it ends, leaving you to choose where to get 9th level spells. Even though it looks like a nice PrC, it's a raw deal.

The nature of gestalt however, makes these penalties somewhat less, which is why they seem more powerful.

Gestalt doesn't just make the penalties less, it removes them completely.

Just off the top of my head:
Cleric6//Wizard6
Then:
Cleric6/MT10//Wizard6/Rogue10

This is more powerful than a Cleric16/Wizard16. The caster levels are equal (16 for both Cleric and Wizard). The build above gets 5d6 sneak attack, much better skills, trapfinding, evasion, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense, a better reflex save, and a Rogue ability. It loses two bonus metamagic/item creation feats, and Turning damage.

Chronos
2008-02-13, 04:58 PM
This build gets 16 BAB, 16th level Druid casting, 16th level Sorcerer casting, 15th level Wizard casting, 10th level Ur-Priest casting (that's 9th level spells), 16th level wild shaping, 11th level Bardic music, and 4 levels worth of archmage goodness.I don't think you can take Ur-Priest after Druid, since Ur-Priest requires that you can't already cast divine spells. But the point stands: You can do some pretty insane things if you allow multiple prestige classes with multiple progression in Gestalt.


Full BAB is not a valid class feature to be restricted. Do you consider Warriors to be a PC class?I don't see the connection, there... Adepts aren't a PC class, either, but they get spellcasting and a familiar. And in 2nd edition, Fighters were a PC class, but the only thing they had over 3rd edition Warriors is a slightly larger hit die.

Talya
2008-02-13, 07:14 PM
BAB is like saves, hit dice, etc. It's not considered a "progression" when they speak of "dual progression" classes. It's just a class feature. Dual Progression PRCs are defined as those that actually specifically advance features from two base classes simultaneously. They need to state that they are doing so, such as "+1 level in arcane spellcasting class".

And yes, the problem with Gestalt and Dual Progression classes is that they completely remove the penalties for using them. In a regular game. Mystic Theurge and Ultimate Magus are actually sub-optimal because you sacrifice casting levels in ithe classes that are advanced just to qualify. In Gestalt, you don't need to do that. You could take Wizard 10/Sublime Chord 10//Beguiler 9/Prestige Bard 1/Ultimate Magus 10...at which point you're a level 20 wizard, level 19 beguiler, level 10 Sublime Chord (with a CL of 29 or 30) and have no arcane spell failure chance for any spell you cast from any class.

avr
2008-02-13, 08:26 PM
Gestalt is whatever you want it to be when you set it up, but for the purposes of discussing it I prefer to use it as originally suggested, i.e. no dual progression classes.

If I was going to run a gestalt game up to high levels, I'd probably assume that full BAB isn't a class feature as far as determining what was a dual progression PrC - unless I'd decided there'd be a lot of dead magic/wild magic areas around. I'd still prefer when discussing gestalt rules here to assume that the 'standard' gestalt rules apply & from the example of the Eldritch knight these seem to be that full BAB is a class feature.

Talya
2008-02-13, 08:29 PM
Eldritch Knight values 5 points of BAB over 10 levels at 1 caster level.

Aquillion
2008-02-13, 09:11 PM
The reason why 'fusion' classes are banned in gestalt isn't because of "doubling up"; it's because those classes are supposed to be balanced by giving up levels (and thus, some of the best features) from both of the classes it derives from.

Consider Swiftblade in Gestalt, say. Swiftblade (in its most recent incarnation) is a very decent PRC, but the fact that you give up four levels of casting if you take it all the way through balances it.

Now suppose you stagger your Gestalt levels to recover those four levels. You are, basically, a full swiftblade who is getting the full abilities of a wizard as well -- for only four levels on your other side.

In general, I think that a better rule for Gestalt would be these two:

First, for the purposes of satisfying PRC requirements, you can only use abilities from classes on the side of the progression where you're putting the PRC. In other words, if you want to be an Eldritch Knight, fine -- but you have to take (say) both wizard and fighter levels on one side of your progression. If you get a feat from a bonus feat or whatever on one side of your progression, you're allowed to take it again on the other side to make it count for both, but (unless it is a feat that can normally be taken multiple times) the extra copy provides no other benefit.

(The feats you earn through normal progression, and not from your class, count for both sides fo the progression, as does your race and any special requirements not tied to a class.)

Second, once you've taken a class on one side of your progression, you can only continue it on that side of the progression; you can never take it on the other side. Additionally, when a class feature stacks or continues a feature from another class (including all +1 spellcasting classes), you can only apply it to features from its own side of the progression.

This would complicate bookkeeping slightly, but would make the balancing of PRCs in Gestalt massively, massively simpler. Every decently-powered PRC out there was balanced under the assumption that you only had 20 levels to work with and were trading out some class features by switching to the PRC; allowing players to continue spellcasting progression in particular while taking a high-powered PRC that trades off a few spellcasting levels is extremely broken... the handful of levels that a player spends on the other side of the progression to make up the missing spelling is going to be a massively more powerful way to spend those levels than any other option out there.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 09:37 PM
Eldritch Knight values 5 points of BAB over 10 levels at 1 caster level.

Actually it values that additional +5 BAB and D6 a little more highly than a single caster level since the standard two leveling feats and familiar leveling benefits are lost for PRCing.

Most PCs either lose another spellcasting level with a dip into another class or taking by taking an ECL race like Outsider or by spending another feat to meet the requirement of being proficient with all martial weapons. Additionally Will is no longer the best save for a PC Eldritch Knight.

Chronos
2008-02-13, 10:02 PM
Interesting idea, Aquillion... What about skills? Many PrCs have skill requirements, but it's not really possible to say which skills come from which classes. Under the default gestalt rules, if I have a wizard//rogue, I can max out Spellcraft, Concentration, and 6+Int different Knowledge skills: Are those skills on the rogue side, or on the wizard side? On the one hand, I never would have been able to take that many skills without the rogue, but on the other hand, all of those are class skills for the wizard only, so I couldn't have maxed them without wizard.

Aquillion
2008-02-16, 01:13 AM
Interesting idea, Aquillion... What about skills? Many PrCs have skill requirements, but it's not really possible to say which skills come from which classes. Under the default gestalt rules, if I have a wizard//rogue, I can max out Spellcraft, Concentration, and 6+Int different Knowledge skills: Are those skills on the rogue side, or on the wizard side? On the one hand, I never would have been able to take that many skills without the rogue, but on the other hand, all of those are class skills for the wizard only, so I couldn't have maxed them without wizard.Hmm... honestly, caster levels, BAB, and major class features like backstab are probably the most important things to worry about. There are ways to increase your skill points per level (int, say) or to make things class skills, while there's virtually no way to recover lost BAB or caster levels (without a few specific classes devoted to that, anyway, like Ur-Priest, and those are very rare.)

I don't think there are many classes out there that are entirely supposed to be balanced by the sacrifice of skill points... many PRCs require skill points in useless places to enter, yeah, but it's just not as big a thing as (say) giving up caster levels to enter Mystic Theurge.

So I'd just say let skills count for both sides.