OOTS #530 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Rockphed]

And Belkar continues to be incredibly self-centered. Ah, well. At least Celia is taking it well.

[RMS Oceanic]

Which just goes to show how far reaching the consequences of Miko's actions were. Even after the city has fallen, the resistance(s) has been damaged by the Sapphire Guard's secrecy.

Also, Belkar was really funny in this one. In spite of this, I hope something happens that allows Roy to contact any of these guys soon. We've set everything up for the plot to get moving again. Not that it isn't an entertaining break or anything.

Great strip, Giant.

[rosebud]

Actually, I think Belkar helped. Sometimes you just need to lay things out there.

I liked the last few panels. She's so sweet. :smallsmile:

[Emperor Demonking]

YeahBelkar really did help them. Roy needs to find a way to talk to them.

[endoperez]

Not what I expected to happen, not nearly as teary... poor Roy. It seems he got the short end of the deal, again.

[Lyinginbedmon]

I was wondering when they'd inform Celia, I guess now we know.

Belkar continues to be a jerk, but at least in this instance it wasn't the usual "Har har, I will now torture you and sell your liver on eBay!" Belkar jerkiness.

[Ruduen]

Not random pop culture references! It's too random! And referencing!

Still, at least Belkar's being honest. I would've thought he'd try and use the opportunity to torment Celia or something.

[Mugen Nightgale]

heuheuhe good stuff!

t3h Scruff1n4t0r! uheuehuhe

[Mordokai]

Allright, twice the goodnes! Me likes!

Typical Belkar, but at least he was partialy useful this time. Still, I just can't bring myself to like the little bastard :smallannoyed:

[Lorn]

Still, at least Belkar's being honest. I would've thought he'd try and use the opportunity to torment Celia or something
Yeah, but Mr Scruffy wants fish. More important.

Anyway, anyone else thinking something along the lines of Celia having a friend capable of pulling off Resurrection? Or whatever the spell is nowadays?

[Castamir]

Well, I would say this time it's Haley who's damn thick. Not Belkar, not Celia.

And I wonder why the Abyss most specimens of that gender can't say directly what they mean...

[Rockphed]

Still, at least Belkar's being honest. I would've thought he'd try and use the opportunity to torment Celia or something.

As he said, he couldn't take the Euphemisms anymore. I don't think he could have tortured Celia with any lies, though he might have been able to give her a run for his money by claiming that Roy was now working for Zykon, I suspect he remembers this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) encounter with Celia and lies.

[a1057soul]

ack! My RSS feed missed it... i'm glad I came to check this morning... Nice comic Giant! I really love the budding Roy/Celia romance... I hope this is preluding to something for them for Valentine's Day!

:-)
Dan

[Blaznak]

Ayup! That's the best way to do it. No beating around the bush. Just say "Roy is Dead".

I also thought "how typical" when Haley described the infighting between the various factions of the heavily outnumbered good guys!

Later!
Oh, and Happy Valentines Day, everybody...

[AtomicKitKat]

LOL@"OTHER other side":smallbiggrin:

[Daran]

The Belkster and the Scruffinator - I can't stop laughing :smallbiggrin:

Well Celia sure did take Roy's death lighter than anyone expected I persume.

[Darkantra]

Excellent comic, at least we've finally established that no one can see Roy, and that the Scruffinator will get some tasty fish.

[FujinAkari]

Woo!

Is it petty of me to feel triumphant as this comic utterly destroys the only pillar that David's argument was founded upon (that Haley was still in the city because Cloister prevented her from leaving?)

Naaah... he'll show up with a rewritten and even more speculative argument I'm sure.

Good work Rich, thanks for giving us a plot so-nuanced that quibbling about it can be this much fun! ^_^

[SensFan]

Great comic, as usual.

Perhaps Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

[Holammer]

Amazing strip, another reminder why dialogue smacks art around like rock does with scissors. Go for broke Belkster! You can do more pop culture references than Fallout 2 and World of Warcraft combined!

[Yendor]

Well Celia sure did take Roy's death lighter than anyone expected I persume.
I guess that's because, as Belkar says, it's only a matter of time before they get him back.

[Wych]

awesome comic, although I found it a little odd that haley didn't just speak plainly. I would assume she has seen enough people die to be comfortable with it.

Also... Scruffinator!

[Novacat]

And in the end, Celia is the happiest of the group. Excellent job Giant.

[HappyEngineer]

Perhaps Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

That's actually a good idea. In the Discworld books, cats, children, and wizards are the only beings naturally able to see Death. So Mr. Scruffy should be able to see him no problem.

Also, props for the Monty Python references. They are still funny even after all these years.

[carebearbecky]

Yay, lunchtime comics for happiness... wonderful.

Glad to see Celia taking things well.... Not so happy about the fact that Hayley intends to stay in Azure City indefinately at this point....

:smalleek:

[SPoD]

awesome comic, although I found it a little odd that haley didn't just speak plainly. I would assume she has seen enough people die to be comfortable with it.

She is comfortable with it--note she whispered to Belkar about telling her how Roy "croaked". It's Celia that she assumes will not be comfortable, probably because she's not an adventurer.

Remember, Haley saw Celia burst into tears (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html) when she thought all of her friends and family were long dead. She no doubt wanted to break it gently to her to try to minimize the chance of a similar scene.

[shuz]

THE SCRUFFINATOR!!!!!!

FISH!!! :smallbiggrin:

[RebelRogue]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the title?

[RMS Oceanic]

If you yank a bandaid off right away, it stings like hell, just like being told bluntly a loved one has died is a horrible shock. By removing it a little bit at a time, or breaking it to them gently, it doesn't hurt as much.

[Jowston]

"Roy has joined the choir invisible."
"And that means what? That he multiclassed to bard?"

Hehe!! I love that one. Grade A comic as always.

[Xiander]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the title?

It is a reference to the popular diskussion about wether a band aid should be removed slowly or quikly, and which of the alternatives result in less pain. Which is pretty much what the strip is about, Belkars very rough and unconvoluted reveal of roys death actually hurt Celia less than what haley was trying to do.

[El_Frenchie]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the title?

Basically, it refers to taking your time removing a very sticky band-aid. (Pulls skin and hair, slowly, hurts for a longer while) Or on the contrary, getting the band-aid off asap. (Hurts more, but ends the pain quicker.)

Edit: ugh, double ninja'd.

[SteveMB]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the title?

Ripping off a sticky bandage is generally painful. You can either do it slowly, making it less intense but last longer, or just rip it off in one sharp painful moment.

[jamroar]

Celia's talk of just one spell between their reunion and that line of "reduced impact of mortality" brings a horrible thought to mind. :smalleek:


Suppose Celia is killed while trapped in Azure City. As an outsider, her spirit would immediately merge into the elemental plane of Air, Roy would never get to see her again, not even in the afterlife, and nothing short of a True Resurrection would be able to bring her back (which the OOTS is not likely to reach until the endgame or epilogue of their quest).

[ref]

Celia is quite Elany, and this has to wake up Haley's Latent Bisexuality soon. :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallcool:

And noooooobody wants the random pop culture references!! :smallwink:

[FujinAkari]

Suppose Celia is killed while trapped in Azure City. As an outsider, her spirit would immediately merge into the elemental plane of Air, Roy would never get to see her again, not even in the afterlife, and nothing short of a True Resurrection would be able to bring her back (which the OOTS is not likely to reach until the endgame or epilogue of their quest).


Wait... what?

Wouldn't she just shift right back, much akin to Sabine?

[hewhosaysfish]

"... He's gay?"

ROFL

No Celia, the OTHER OTHER other side.

[Niknokitueu]

Too.. many.. questions.. answered..

Head.. is.. explod.....

(Nice one Rich! Puts us all back in our place... :smallbiggrin: )

Woot! Made it into the first 40 posts - a new record for me :smallcool:

The comic is worth every minute spent waiting for it.:smallsmile:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Great comic, as usual.

Perhaps Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

You might be onto something here. Can't cats see the dead before anyone else? SOrt of an old wives tale or something...

Woot! A double!

[warmachine]

I wanna see Belkar dropping random pop culture references.

[Sequinox]

Yay! New oots!

...

God, this is starting to get frustrating.

...

But I like it.

[Lyinginbedmon]

Don't Sylphs get +6 Wisdom? I'm beginning to wonder how Celia could have been so dense, especially for an Air-based outsider :smallbiggrin:

[Swashbuckler]

"Whiskers Von Thor-Bugger" ...

Laughed so hard I nearly peed. :smallbiggrin:

Belkar's snarky comments FTW yet again!!

[jamroar]

Wait... what?

Wouldn't she just shift right back, much akin to Sabine?

Honestly, I don't really know how that works. I think they keep changing it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)

I think currently that rule only applies to outsiders specifically summoned by Summon spells (and quasi-powers who can form aspects), not Called, Gated or Teleported outsiders. It might work differently in OOTSworld though.

[hajo]

And in the end, Celia is the happiest of the group.
After all, she hasn't that much to worry about.
Life in her school will have much less problems than life in a conquered city like AC.

If she can go back thru that cloister-spell remains to be seen...

[Blaznak]

Am I the only one who doesn't really get the title?

The idea is this: When a bandaid covers a wound for a while, common wisdom is to just yank it off quickly. It will sting for less time than if you slowly try to peel the bandaid off. Whether its true or not, its just a common line of thought.

Anyways, the reference is Haley is slowly peeling away the "bandaid" of news of Roy's death. This is just dragging out the matter and driving Belkar nuts. So... he just "yanks the bandaid off" so to speak and blurts out the news to get it over with.

Hope that's helpful!

Later!:smallsmile:

[Dark Wolf]

He's deader than A-line flairs with pockets in the knees.

[Ganurath]

Halflings are very worldly due to their nomadic nature. As such, Belkar knew better than Haley that metaphors do not cross planar barriers easily. It wasn't so much Haley's speed at which she was communicating the message, it was that she wasn't really communicating the message.

A most wonderful comic, as always, Giant. Good to know that there are other resistance groups. Shall we call the first group that thinks the OotS is evil Minions of Miko?

[shylocxs]

Mmmm... mice and rice. I don't know what was funnier... that... or the idea of Belkar dropping pop culture references.

[Mauve Shirt]

*siiigh* What happens NOW?
Belkar can't see him, Celia can't see him...the only ridiculous theory we have left is Mr. Scruffy, and what good is it if HE can see him?

[Yendor]

*siiigh* What happens NOW?
Belkar can't see him, Celia can't see him...the only ridiculous theory we have left is Mr. Scruffy, and what good is it if HE can see him?

Celia has sorcerer powers. Maybe she has something she could use to find out what Mr. Scruffy is looking at.

[inthesto]

For a few seconds, I was worried we wouldn't get to drop the bomb on Celia until the next strip. Glad to see I was wrong, and the lessened impact of mortality comment is one of the issues I've always had with D&D. I definitely like this one.

And on a side note, I think it's worth saying that class-race restrictions aren't all that dead. We still see them in PrCs all the time. Heck, even one of the core PrCs has one.

[Lumenadducere]

Yay for the double strip. It's good to see that she's taking it well.

Though I kinda wish that Roy could somehow tell Haley the news.

I'm a little dismayed at the news that there's a group that thinks the OotS was evil and corrupted Shojo and Hinjo. As if one deluded Paladin wasn't enough...

[Swordlol]

Great comic, as usual.

Perhaps Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

I think you may be on to something there...

[Johnny Blade]

Heh, now that was funny.

I actually don't know what to like best here: The "Life of Brian"esque resistance groups, Haley's futile attempts to "break it to her gently" (and Celia's thick-wittedness), or Belkar's antics.

On second thought though, it's never wrong to go with the Belkster.


*siiigh* What happens NOW?
Belkar can't see him, Celia can't see him...the only ridiculous theory we have left is Mr. Scruffy, and what good is it if HE can see him?
Ha! You think that is ridiculous?
Then what about the following hypothesis:

Belkar will be able to see Roy. However, the link is not the Mark of Justice. It is Roy's body.

...

Just let it sink in.

...

And please tell me when it starts making sense.

Honestly though, I'm really anxious to see how the Giant will resolve this. He can't just have Roy go back to his cloud and leave the last six updates as nothing but filler. Well, technically he can, but I doubt it will happen.

[shakes019]

Great strip. Belkar's lines make me think that Mr. Burlew has been reading up on 4th edition.

[Lionpawheart]

Aww, how cute. Belkar actually cares for another living creature. That's kind of new.
(And guys, I mean the cat.)
Anyways, it's nice how cool Celia has taken the news. A bit of drama never hurt anyone. :smallwink:

[Johnny Blade]

Anyways, it's nice how cool Celia has taken the news. A bit of drama never hurt anyone. :smallwink:
A certain fighter with an MBA may or may not disagree with you about that.:smallwink:

[Steven the Lich]

Belkar only cares for Mr. Scruffy because he's Shojos cat, who he pretended to be the dominating force (Shojo ordered one of his pallies to clean the litterbox of Scruffy, how is Belkar not suppose to like the cat that gives utter humiliation to the highest orders of paladins?)

Lets hope Celia has Ressurection on her, but if not... maybe... just maybe... she can fly over to Durkon, fly him back, and blah blah blah, we all know the next phase.

Three different factions? Sounds like Scarlet Crusade all over again... http://www.wowwiki.com/Scarlet_Crusade

Belkar better pray Roy doesn't come back from the other side soon... or he is halfling meat... but since Roy isn't a wizard, he won't be well done like he would if he ticked off :vaarsuvius:
"I prepared Exploding Runes this morning"... the very same line we have all come to fear... or at least the OotS... Though Ivans tentacles of intrusion may top it...

[Rad]

For the impact of the Revolving door on character drama hip, hip!...

[Courier]

I still think it's possible Belkar can see Roy - in the last panel, both Roy and Celia say really melodramatic things. I could easily see it being revealed that he was actually responding to Roy and just isn't that surprised to see his ghost - for comedic effect.

[fractal]

I don't see what's wrong with Belkar's approach. He made sure Celia got the good news as well as the bad news asap. If he'd announced Roy's death WITHOUT making the note about the corpse and Resurrection, that would have been the bad part.

Note that with Celia's lack of knowledge of Humans, she might think it took a True Res to bring them back, just like Outsiders. Since level 17 Clerics are hard to come by, she would probably have given Roy up for permanently dead.

[Swordlol]

Three different factions? Sounds like Scarlet Crusade all over again... http://www.wowwiki.com/Scarlet_Crusade



+5 coolness for quoting WoW with OotS

[Castamir]

I doubt the Giant would stoop himself so low as to make a WoW reference. Don't forget the Judean People's Front (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WeAreStrugglingTogether) and the People's Front of Judea.

[Lord_Mikklun]

Having just red the entirety of OOTS in a week (yes Icame to it late) apoint on Character development in OOts particularly in light of dear sweet Belkar in 530 wow have these characters grown particularly The aforementioned and miss Star shine

[Fingolfin]

Maybe Roy wasn't closer to resurrection with this comic, however he was closer to coming out of the closet! Common Giant :smallbiggrin:

[Belkar Rocks]

:belkar: Roy is dead!

Ha ha! Leave it to my man Belkar to tell it like it is!

:belkar: I swear I'll start dropping random pop culture references.
:belkar: And I don' think anyone wants that!

Oooh! I do! I do! :smallcool:

[Gamerlord]

sweet we learn of two more groups :smallsmile:


hehe :roy:"i'm gonna kill you!"

[Moran]

Twelve Gods, I LOVE that little bastard a little more each strip. :smallbiggrin:

[Andorax]

Belkar better pray Roy doesn't come back from the other side soon... or he is halfling meat... but since Roy isn't a wizard, he won't be well done like he would if he ticked off :vaarsuvius:

Two interesting side notes come to mind:

1) It's quite possible Belkar has nothing to fear. There's a fair amount of precident (although it's not officially stated anywhere, it tends to be an unspoken rule) that Roy will not remember his time spent dead.

2) Due to your side comment, you reminded me that Vaarsuvius may have something to fear from Belkar (well, a little anyways).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html (last panel).

Due to Miko no longer being a paladin, we'll never see the horse again. That puts V back on top of Belkar's "list".

[RandomLogic]

That last panel is classic. "I'll start dropping random pop culture references, and no one wants that!"

[Aerysil]

Oh, we DO want it, Belkar.

We do.

[Vulion]

The last three strips were sweet, everything before that was effing hilarious.

[factotum]

Once again Belkar shows the utter lack of patience that everyone loves so much... :smallbiggrin:

[nybbler]

Ripping off a sticky bandage is generally painful. You can either do it slowly, making it less intense but last longer, or just rip it off in one sharp painful moment.

Or you can shave the area before applying the band-aid, and it doesn't hurt much at all. But the OOTS never thinks that far ahead :smallsmile:

[SlightlyEvil]

:belkar: I swear I'll start dropping random pop culture references.
:belkar: And I don' think anyone wants that!

Ah, metahumor. Combine that with a Life of Brian reference and you get comedy gold.

[Antina]

And what did we learn today?
That beeings being summoned got enough time left to reach out for their shoes (or does Celia wear them in bed *giggle*):smallbiggrin:

[kunou126]

:belkar: I swear I'll start dropping random pop culture references.
:belkar: And I don' think anyone wants that!


:eek: Was this a dig made at Erfworld?

[the_tick_rules]

celia took that very oddly, and belkar is in top form today. boy belkar has taken a real shining to scruffy hasn't he?

[elynnia]

Celia took Roy's death really really well... ^^;

Makes me wonder, though, if she has easier access to the spells and resources needed for Resurrection than the OoTS does.

Let's just hope so...=)

[Qov]

I read this comic as I slowly scrolled down. With every line I kept thinking it was the end of the installment, and kept being delighted that it continued. The Giant could have so gotten away with prolonging the reveal for yet another strip, and some of the humour is in the relief that he didn't.

[Morgan Wick]

ack! My RSS feed missed it... i'm glad I came to check this morning... Nice comic Giant! I really love the budding Roy/Celia romance... I hope this is preluding to something for them for Valentine's Day!

:-)
Dan

Something in the RSS feed causes it to check only every 24 hours no matter what your settings are, at least with IE7's RSS reader. Which also seems to have a weird 200-item limit...


I still think it's possible Belkar can see Roy - in the last panel, both Roy and Celia say really melodramatic things. I could easily see it being revealed that he was actually responding to Roy and just isn't that surprised to see his ghost - for comedic effect.

I had the same idea, but he doesn't respond to Roy's "Going to KILL you!" You'd think that would be something he'd feel the need to respond to. Granted, he's right in front of Haley and Celia, but he doesn't know they can't see him.


2) Due to your side comment, you reminded me that Vaarsuvius may have something to fear from Belkar (well, a little anyways).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0221.html (last panel).

Due to Miko no longer being a paladin, we'll never see the horse again. That puts V back on top of Belkar's "list".

I suspect V moved back to the top of Belkar's list before Miko went all cuckoo. Perhaps as a result of V's experiment in the wake of "The Event".

And am I the only one who noticed the irony in "Besides, it's almost like I can feel him watching over us..."

If Mr. Scruffy can see Roy, we'll probably find out next strip, but I still find it a little doubtful. And I don't see Celia being able to rez Roy, or if she normally could, it might be prevented by Roy being there (and then Roy can't run back to Celestia because of Cloister, if he figures it out at all) - Roy running down to the mortal plane is pointless if Celia resurrects him regardless.

[Steven the Lich]

Twelve Gods, I LOVE that little bastard a little more each strip. :smallbiggrin:
Lords of heck, I'm beginning to loath him a little more with each passing strip.
I mean... He killed Yok Yok and turned his skull into a bowl of nachos and his internal organs into salsa... he planned on using a skull of an undead for all his personal conveniences, even a bathroom... you can't help but admire his evil... but I still loathe him for it. Thank the unholy gods in OotS that he is hindered by that Mark... though in some cases, it could be a hindrance to everyone else.

Random pop cultures? Lets pray its not too bad.

[Nightfall]

If you yank a bandaid off right away, it stings like hell, just like being told bluntly a loved one has died is a horrible shock. By removing it a little bit at a time, or breaking it to them gently, it doesn't hurt as much.

I completely disagree. Yanking off a band-aid hurts a lot, but only for a little bit. Peeling it off a little at a time only prolongs the agony. Ditto the long-drawn-out explanation that a loved-one has passed. I'd rather someone tell me bluntly that my father has passed (he recently had a near-brush), than to have someone beat around the bush attempting to "break it to me gently". You still have to go through those five steps to accept a loss. JMHO.

(FYI, those five steps are
Denial: The initial stage: "It can't be happening."
Anger: "Why me? It's not fair."
Bargaining: "Just let me live to see my children graduate."
Depression: "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?"
Acceptance: "It's going to be OK." ) :smallsmile:

[Morgan Wick]

One other thing. After reading about the competing resistances, I would be VERY surprised to see the OOTS reunited before #600, which means they'll spend the entire fourth book separated - something I was more hopeful about before. That doesn't preclude Roy getting resurrected before then, though...

[HOLEkevin]

"The OTHER other side."

Best line of the strip. Hah!

[Souju]

Three different factions? Sounds like Scarlet Crusade all over again... http://www.wowwiki.com/Scarlet_Crusade


could also argue an EverQuest reference: The dwarves, giants and dragons of the Scars of Velious expansion (in this instance Haley's group would be the giants, seeing as how both other factions hate her group)
or a DAOC reference
or a CoH/CoV reference...etc.


Sooooo is Mr. Scruffy Belkar's animal companion now?

[Antknee42]

Hi all-

I've been a reader for years and I am a huge fan, so it kind of pains me to make this my first post. I do it, however, to make sure this comic is well-represented in future printings.

Orchestrated is spelled wrong in the comic. It is currently orchAstrated, and should be orchEstrated.

That is all, and keep up the good work. Even though I don't get all the D&D jokes because I haven't played since 1st Edition AD&D, I do appreciate some of the jokes like character restrictions and weapon proficiency (ya know, those rules we all skipped anyway)

-AA

[LordSintax]

"Whiskers von Thor-bugger". heh.:smallamused:

and we came within an inch of quoting monty python again, so bonus points there.

[Yendor]

Y'know, we could see some amusing antics if Mr. Scruffy joins the reunited party...

:belkar: So, Vaarsuvius... still got that raven?
:vaarsuvius: Huh? Oh, yes of course.
POP!
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/mr_scruffy.jpgMEOW! pounce!
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngcaw?!

[David Argall]

Is it petty of me to feel triumphant as this comic utterly destroys the only pillar that David's argument was founded upon (that Haley was still in the city because Cloister prevented her from leaving?)

Naaah... he'll show up with a rewritten and even more speculative argument I'm sure.

The writer makes the decisions and even when they are wrong, they are right. I submit that this makes Haley act in a stupid and uncharacteristic manner, but...

However, we can note that many of the objections to the idea suffer just as much damage. Haley does not consider it at all difficult to leave the city. Rather she doesn't see what she can do next. The resistance did not form right away, but took some time, and formed in at least 3 places, Haley actively forming her part of it. She didn't reject the idea of leaving because of the resistance, but formed the resistance because she had rejected the idea of leaving...

Now as to the future...

One advantage of this development is that we can see a clear path for the plot now. Haley's stupidity means we do not need the city to be closed off physically. That in turn means we do not need much of anything to form the rescue group. Roy finds a way to communicate with Haley who leaves town for a day or two, V contacts her, and we are there.
The obvious way to contact is still the sword. Somebody touches it and can see Roy. However, the idea of a chain of communication has comic potential. But that gag often involves a half dozen people, each of which can only speak to two of the others. Here, it is difficult to stretch it that far.
Now one idea might be that only the first one to touch the sword can get to see Roy. We might have Belkar touch it, see Roy, and when he tells the others, they touch and still see nothing. Failing to convince them he is not pulling some weird gag, Belkar has to be convinced by Roy to leave the city so he can be contacted by V.

[Zinthius]

.... random pop culture refere...

OH NO! HE WOULDN'T!! would he?

does anyone else see the very scary slight possibility that this is turning into a reference of that really bad Patric Swayzy movie Ghost?

[Brat-t]

To me it seems fairly obvious that the three factions are the forum factions.
The Pro Miko club is represented by the OoTS is Evil Faction.
The bizzare and/or excessively complicated and incestuous plot twist group is represented by the Hinjo was an assassin Faction.
And the Hailey's 200 represents those few remaining hearty souls that just follow along and love the comic.

[vegetalss4]

cool loved the irony.

and brat-t i belive there are more of us, but as we just read and love we dont make 117 different threads about our opinion and that makes it look like we are fewer than we are. i personally belive that part is about monty's life of brian

[osyluth]

vegetalss4, you're right. The people who just follow along and love the comic are not really a minority, we just don't really need to make 100 threads about it.

[recluso]

First Belkar must have been sleeping or has really softened.

In oots0442 Xykon flies away well before Roy dies and if Belkar saw Xykon cast a meteor swarm he could have seen that too. The team seems in 444-445 to be aware that Roy died from falling. He could have used that to make Celia feel bad, instead he lies and even comes with a few words that might be comforting. (Yes, he immediately goes egocentric again afterwards but still)


I have the feeling that they might do what Belkar suggests... hook up with Durkon and then try to Ressurrect Roy, without anyone seeing Roy.
Even if Roy's dad believes contacting might work, that is no guarantee it does. Given how Roy gets more and more disappointments, it would fit very well that his intervention was unnecessary.

Celia probably detects the cloister and suggests Haley to exit the city, she might be able to contact Durkon/V... Roy being a ghost might complicate things and be plot relevant ... negatively.

[Brat-t]

It's true... I'm sure that the majority of Oots fans, even the ones on the forums, are the quietly enjoying the comic type. Maybe Hailey would have more support but the rest are in hiding. It just made so much sense.

[xyzchyx]

First of all... it is evident to me that Celia is as dumb as sticks. For crying out loud, how observant do you have to be to realize that as natural mammals, humans would have no magical SA's or SQ's in their stat block. Somebody please point out to me why a person who is supposedly as smart as Roy is, and who should have a pretty decent wisdom too, would actually want to have a girlfriend like that beyond the fact that she practically threw herself at him? I mean is Roy *REALLY* that desperate? Personally, I really think he can do far better... the right person just hasn't come along yet.

Oh, and second of all... class/race restrictions and non-weapon proficiencies aren't remotely dead... they're just not in the limelight anymore.

[Jade Falcon]

refreshing that Belkar put a stop to Haleys blather. He even cheered Celia up (unintendionally I guess :smallbiggrin: )

He seems to really care about Mr. Scruffy. Belkar and his cat of doom .. nice thought for the future :smalltongue:

[Keri Thornwood]

Yay for random pop culture references!

Roy needs to find a way to communicate. He's looking more and more like Xykon every day.

[Prowl]

I see Belkar has been properly trained.

[Souju]

First of all... it is evident to me that Celia is as dumb as sticks. For crying out loud, how observant do you have to be to realize that as natural mammals, humans would have no magical SA's or SQ's in their stat block. Somebody please point out to me why a person who is supposedly as smart as Roy is, and who should have a pretty decent wisdom too, would actually want to have a girlfriend like that beyond the fact that she practically threw herself at him? I mean is Roy *REALLY* that desperate? Personally, I really think he can do far better... the right person just hasn't come along yet.


she's not human and has spent most of her life hanging around other non-humans and what few she did encounter were, like dorukan, magic users.

[Majorman]

"Whiskers von Thor-Bugger" - that was rich. Belkster is killing me :smallsmile:

[David Argall]

In oots0442 Xykon flies away well before Roy dies and if Belkar saw Xykon cast a meteor swarm he could have seen that too. The team seems in 444-445 to be aware that Roy died from falling. He could have used that to make Celia feel bad, instead he lies and even comes with a few words that might be comforting.
Belkar is not interested in the long term. Right now he needs to get a fish dinner for his master. [You don't own cats. They own you.] So he is not concerned with giving Celia a bad time. He just says whatever looks to get these fool women past unimportant things, which is everything but getting the cat his dinner.
Now later Belkar will have the free time to give Celia a serious guilt trip. The only thing likely to prevent it is that Belkar may not be bright enough to think of it.



I have the feeling that they might do what Belkar suggests... hook up with Durkon and then try to Ressurrect Roy, without anyone seeing Roy.
Even if Roy's dad believes contacting might work, that is no guarantee it does. Given how Roy gets more and more disappointments, it would fit very well that his intervention was unnecessary.

Celia probably detects the cloister and suggests Haley to exit the city, she might be able to contact Durkon/V... Roy being a ghost might complicate things and be plot relevant ... negatively.



Belkar is not suggesting they hook up with Durkon/etc. He merely expects it to happen.
Dramatic conventions almost require that Roy's intervention have some effect, tho not necessarily in a positive direction.
Celia's ability to detect the cloister, beyond Haley's ability, is pretty zeroish and her ability to suggest leaving the city seems rather low too. Any objection to Haley thinking of the idea seems to apply to Celia, who doesn't have months to think of it either.
Now Celia might be used to hunt Durkon down. She can surely move a lot faster than Haley. But we are still talking a full world, and the fleet has wandered over a huge area. That is not too encouraging.

[Forealms]

Excellent job, Giant! I wonder how/if Celia will help out around AC.

[Leliel]

Ah. The upside to being the Ditz (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDitz).

Ignorance is bliss.

To bad I prefer "Knowlege" over "Happiness".

[factotum]

:eek: Was this a dig made at Erfworld?

Eh? Why would you say that? OotS has had loads of pop culture references over its run, so if anything it's a dig at ITSELF.

[YohanLeafheart]

hooray for more monty python references. The Dead ParROYt.

[d'Bwobsling]

hooray for more monty python references. The Dead ParROYt.

Ouch! *collapses under bad pun damage*

[Tre of the Wood]

Heh, yeah, "orchestrated" and "euphemisms" are spelled incorrectly in the comic, but the is one of my favorite comics all-time, so I can hardly complain. . . .

[Xiander]

The writer makes the decisions and even when they are wrong, they are right. I submit that this makes Haley act in a stupid and uncharacteristic manner, but...

I must admit, that i really don't see anything stupid, or uncharacteristic in Haleys choice of actions.

[deworde]

"Deader than class/race restrictions and nonweapon proficiencies."
"He'll be resurrected faster than you can say "Reduced Impact of Character Mortality"."

Awww yeah, 4th-wall-breakin', evil-talkin', cat-feedin' pop-culture-reference-droppin' Belkar Bitterleaf.

[Bitzeralisis]

Celia took that well.

[kunou126]

Eh? Why would you say that? OotS has had loads of pop culture references over its run, so if anything it's a dig at ITSELF.

Perhaps, but OOTS doesn't live and breath on random pop culture references to the extent that Erfworld does.

[FujinAkari]

The writer makes the decisions and even when they are wrong, they are right. I submit that this makes Haley act in a stupid and uncharacteristic manner, but...

I don't know why I'm surprised... but I am. And very disappointed. Why is it that whenever one of your arguments is disproven, your reaction is to attack Rich's credibility, rather than simply admit being wrong? At one point, I think you even made the claim that Rich wasn't an authority on Order of the Stick, at which point I... gah... I don't know how to deal with someone who actually believes themselves to be more of an authority on a subject than the subject! I have this mental image of you arguing with a mathbook because you think the square root of sixteen should be five, and the authors of the book are wrong...

Haley acted exactly the way Haley's character is supposed to act, as evidenced by the fact that she acted that way. I don't know why you have this bizarre belief that Haley should have known that the radius of a spell she might not even be aware was cast extended to the edge of town, rather than a thousand miles, and thus attempted to leave the city on one of the five or six days V was actually attempting to contact her, but I submit that you're wrong.


However, we can note that many of the objections to the idea suffer just as much damage. Haley does not consider it at all difficult to leave the city. Rather she doesn't see what she can do next. The resistance did not form right away, but took some time, and formed in at least 3 places, Haley actively forming her part of it. She didn't reject the idea of leaving because of the resistance, but formed the resistance because she had rejected the idea of leaving...

You will note that the objections were all examples of reasons she might not have left the city. Unlike your statements, none of them were saying what DID happen, merely what could have. As a result, they are all still valid, as they don't make your mistake of trying to dictate history, merely providing example that there are many alternatives to your accounting.



One advantage of this development is that we can see a clear path for the plot now. Haley's stupidity means we do not need the city to be closed off physically.

There is absolutely nothing stupid about Haley's course of action. As much as I know you hate hearing it, you are incorrect, not me, Rich, Haley, the heavens, and the earth.

[HUMVEE Driver]

"The Scruffinator"?

Eh.

[Sengoku]

I have a sudden question: How does Belkar know that Mr.Scruffy ate just rice and mice in the last three monthes??

If he found him few hours ago, AND Mr.S is a common housecat AND Belkar has no way to ask him precise questions, AND it's true, how is it possible? Did Mr.S spoke to Belkar's mind?

Maybe what someone thinks to be just a cat was really the true power behind Azure city ;)

That or Belkar is simply speculating to better feed his new brand Animal Companion :smallcool:

[David Argall]

I must admit, that i really don't see anything stupid, or uncharacteristic in Haleys choice of actions.

Uncharacteristic is fairly easy. Haley has been the active sort in just about every part of the story. She is not the passive princess who waits for rescue. Not a complete list...
She takes the position of assistant leader. Not appointed. She creates it.
She gets kidnapped. She rescues herself.
The party confronts the bandits. She quickly lures one bandit into a trap. She leads the attempt to rescue Elan.
The party goes after the ogres. Haley quickly volunteers.
She decides the party is going to retreat after the fall of the castle.
She decides to rescue Roy's body.
And now she creates the resistance.

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

So could she get the idea that leaving the city might work?
She knows V & Durkon have not contacted her. To the best of her knowledge, she assumes them to still be alive. [Obviously not a certainity, but she knows the ship got away and she & Belkar use language that assumes they survived]
She knows the sky has gone weird in the city.
She knows that local conditions can ruin spells. [the anti-magic cells for an obvious example]
We can go on, but already, what is so hard to deduct here? She can't know [indeed, we don't yet], but it should be obvious that something here in the city may be blocking communication, and thus that a short trip out of the city would allow communication. It's an easily tested idea under her control. So why doesn't she think of it?

[Varkadian]

"Whiskers Von Thor-Bugger and the other two idiots"...OMG that line is classic! :smallbiggrin:

[FujinAkari]

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

So could she get the idea that leaving the city might work?

And here is where your argument utterly fails. Just because she COULD do something, doesn't mean she DID. The Comic makes it quite clear that the possibility of V being unable to contact her due to HER location never even crossed her mind. She was waiting for him to get in touch, and assumed the problem to be on his end. Why in the WORLD would she consider leaving the city based on that assumption?

Answer: she wouldn't.

[Vulion]

Uncharacteristic is fairly easy. Haley has been the active sort in just about every part of the story. She is not the passive princess who waits for rescue. Not a complete list...
She takes the position of assistant leader. Not appointed. She creates it.
She gets kidnapped. She rescues herself.
The party confronts the bandits. She quickly lures one bandit into a trap. She leads the attempt to rescue Elan.
The party goes after the ogres. Haley quickly volunteers.
She decides the party is going to retreat after the fall of the castle.
She decides to rescue Roy's body.
And now she creates the resistance.

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

So could she get the idea that leaving the city might work?
She knows V & Durkon have not contacted her. To the best of her knowledge, she assumes them to still be alive. [Obviously not a certainity, but she knows the ship got away and she & Belkar use language that assumes they survived]
She knows the sky has gone weird in the city.
She knows that local conditions can ruin spells. [the anti-magic cells for an obvious example]
We can go on, but already, what is so hard to deduct here? She can't know [indeed, we don't yet], but it should be obvious that something here in the city may be blocking communication, and thus that a short trip out of the city would allow communication. It's an easily tested idea under her control. So why doesn't she think of it?
The fact that you chose to filibuster a subject to death does not mean you're right.

[fractal]

Or you can shave the area before applying the band-aid, and it doesn't hurt much at all. But the OOTS never thinks that far ahead :smallsmile:
Applying a razor to an area with an open wound. Excellent idea!

Besides, what would that mean in this case? Convincing Celia she hated Roy so she wouldn't mind if he were dead or not?

[BURNhollywoodBURN]

New letter
From: BURNhollywoodBURN
To: Belkar
WHY MUST YOU ALWAYS DESTROY EVERY CLIMAX THAT YOU'RE INVOLVED IN!? WHY?!?!
You know, at first, I thought when Belkar said he needed fish in his first panel, I thought the comic was over. Man, that would have sucked. Also, more The Invisible.

[Moff Chumley]

We have gone too long on reminders on why Belkar is awsome. Thankye, O Giant.

[xyzchyx]

We can go on, but already, what is so hard to deduct here? She can't know [indeed, we don't yet], but it should be obvious that something here in the city may be blocking communication, and thus that a short trip out of the city would allow communication.Obvious to you, but why should it should it be obvious to her, or anybody else who didn't hear what V said in #505 or at least Xykon's claim that Azure City was off the grid in #484? We have a rather unique vantage point as readers of the strip that absolutely none of the characters could possibly enjoy (without reading the comic archive, as Roy just suggested in #528).

[Lamech]

Ohh... I don't feel like going back and quoting it, but at one point I remember people acking what would happen to Celia if she died. Notice how it is called a summoning talismin. She is summoned; worst case senario she stops exsisting for 24 hours if she is killed. Best case she can't be resummoned for 24 hours.
(At least I remember something on summoning that creatures can't be resummoned for 24 hours, but regardless she won't die.)

[Bilbo27]

I believe that last panel with Roy and Celia is a quote from the movie "Ghost". Has anyone brought that up yet?

[Charles Phipps]

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?


Because she's leading a resistance instead?

[Warlord JK]

Lolz, Belkar is such an insensitive little jerk. Good thing Celia is a strong person though.

[LordSintax]

hooray for more monty python references. The Dead ParROYt.

you, sir, have just scored a critical hit roll on your pun damage. I am crushed by the awesomeness of your PUNishing manner.... take a few levels in dashing swordsman did you?

[David Argall]

Why is it that whenever one of your arguments is disproven, your reaction is to attack Rich's credibility, rather than simply admit being wrong?
[Now we should note that this is only sometimes my reaction. Often enough the subject simply is dropped for one alternative. However...]
Well one reason is that I am aware of my arguments and reasons. I am not aware of his reasoning or logic, so to accept his position is to accept he is right by fiat, and that is wrong by the laws of logic.


At one point, I think you even made the claim that Rich wasn't an authority on Order of the Stick, at which point I... gah...
Your memory is at fault. I likely said something like that he was not THE authority, before whom all must defer as always right. By the simple fact great parts of the world have not been revealed, he has to rank as the leading authority, but authorities, leading or otherwise, make mistakes and need correction.

I don't know how to deal with someone who actually believes themselves to be more of an authority on a subject than the subject! [/QUOTE]
One does not have to be more of an authority, or an authority at all, to notice mistakes, which everybody makes. A grade school student noticed that his astronomy text, written by a noted expert, reviewed by many more, and used in countless classrooms for years, labeled a lunar eclipse as a solar eclipse.

I have this mental image of you arguing with a mathbook because you think the square root of sixteen should be five, and the authors of the book are wrong...[/QUOTE]
Goggle "textbook error" and you will find such errors are quite common, including a math text that stated that 4+7=10.


Haley acted exactly the way Haley's character is supposed to act, as evidenced by the fact that she acted that way.
This is rather obvious circular reasoning.


I don't know why you have this bizarre belief that Haley should have known that the radius of a spell she might not even be aware was cast extended to the edge of town, rather than a thousand miles,
She doesn't need to know the radius. She just needs to know the obvious, that a spell does cover an area, and that even a city-wide spell is a very large area indeed. A continent wide spell? We are talking god level or higher.


attempted to leave the city on one of the five or six days V was actually attempting to contact her,
Now what in the world gives you an estimate that V tried to contact a mere 5-6 times? 504 & 505 suggest this has been a daily action of V and/or Durkon, indeed quite possibly much more often than daily.


You will note that the objections were all examples of reasons she might not have left the city. Unlike your statements, none of them were saying what DID happen, merely what could have. As a result, they are all still valid, as they don't make your mistake of trying to dictate history, merely providing example that there are many alternatives to your accounting.
You are wanting things both ways here. When the text shows my idea to be wrong, they also show these objections to be wrong. They were not valid alternatives to my accounting.


There is absolutely nothing stupid about Haley's course of action.
Well, by Elan standards. However, I suspect V will have a different opinion when he discovers Haley could have saved her months of ceaseless labor by just taking a short hike.


Just because she COULD do something, doesn't mean she DID. The Comic makes it quite clear that the possibility of V being unable to contact her due to HER location never even crossed her mind. She was waiting for him to get in touch, and assumed the problem to be on his end. Why in the WORLD would she consider leaving the city based on that assumption?
Why in the world would she assume the problem was on the other end? We are discussing here whether a real Haley would have made that assumption, not whether the comic Haley did.

As mentioned, Haley has not been the passive sort. She has not waited for others to correct the problem. She has hunted for ways for her to correct it. Here, that means she would assume there was a problem on her end, and she has a clear candidate for that. So why would she ignore the possibility the problem was on her end?



The fact that you chose to filibuster a subject to death does not mean you're right.

Nor does it mean I am wrong. [Nor does a charge of filibuster mean I have engaged in one.] Now do you wish to discuss the facts presented? instead of using a fallacy?

[Elrond]

hehehehehehe belkars awesome :belkar:

great comic giant

[Superglucose]

I must say... this comic reaffirmed my faith in the celia/roy pair. Celia is probably damn sexy (hey, since when has there been a Fey with low charisma?) and from this, while she may not be the brightest (I guess an int of 10 and an equal wisdom score) she definitley cares. It's better to have someone who's not the brightest bulb in the chandelier who cares about you than someone smart as hell who'd just as soon throw you in a tub of acid as share a cookie with ya.

Besides, her reaction to the whole "Roy is Dead" was so cool and touching, she still sees each other as one spell away.

[Snuggles]

[Now we should note that this is only sometimes my reaction. Often enough the subject simply is dropped for one alternative. However...]
Well one reason is that I am aware of my arguments and reasons. I am not aware of his reasoning or logic, so to accept his position is to accept he is right by fiat, and that is wrong by the laws of logic.


Your memory is at fault. I likely said something like that he was not THE authority, before whom all must defer as always right. By the simple fact great parts of the world have not been revealed, he has to rank as the leading authority, but authorities, leading or otherwise, make mistakes and need correction.

I don't know how to deal with someone who actually believes themselves to be more of an authority on a subject than the subject!
One does not have to be more of an authority, or an authority at all, to notice mistakes, which everybody makes. A grade school student noticed that his astronomy text, written by a noted expert, reviewed by many more, and used in countless classrooms for years, labeled a lunar eclipse as a solar eclipse.

I have this mental image of you arguing with a mathbook because you think the square root of sixteen should be five, and the authors of the book are wrong...[/QUOTE]
Goggle "textbook error" and you will find such errors are quite common, including a math text that stated that 4+7=10.


This is rather obvious circular reasoning.


She doesn't need to know the radius. She just needs to know the obvious, that a spell does cover an area, and that even a city-wide spell is a very large area indeed. A continent wide spell? We are talking god level or higher.


Now what in the world gives you an estimate that V tried to contact a mere 5-6 times? 504 & 505 suggest this has been a daily action of V and/or Durkon, indeed quite possibly much more often than daily.


You are wanting things both ways here. When the text shows my idea to be wrong, they also show these objections to be wrong. They were not valid alternatives to my accounting.


Well, by Elan standards. However, I suspect V will have a different opinion when he discovers Haley could have saved her months of ceaseless labor by just taking a short hike.


Why in the world would she assume the problem was on the other end? We are discussing here whether a real Haley would have made that assumption, not whether the comic Haley did.

As mentioned, Haley has not been the passive sort. She has not waited for others to correct the problem. She has hunted for ways for her to correct it. Here, that means she would assume there was a problem on her end, and she has a clear candidate for that. So why would she ignore the possibility the problem was on her end?



Nor does it mean I am wrong. [Nor does a charge of filibuster mean I have engaged in one.] Now do you wish to discuss the facts presented? instead of using a fallacy?[/QUOTE]


*Massive wall of text crits you for 99K* *You die* *your dog dies* *Your house burns down* *The internet is disconnected* *And they stole your lucky charms*

Great comic by the way Giant!

[kabbor]

Anyone with me in thinking that, with Roy now embedded in the mortal plane, one of V's ubber-spells might get to him? Remember, she was going to apply the spell to Roy, just in case.... He will be able to get information out to him, which will be of some use.

And it looks like the cat is now permanently a part of our adventures. No complaints there.

[Lunaya]

I was wondering when they'd inform Celia, I guess now we know.

Belkar continues to be a jerk, but at least in this instance it wasn't the usual "Har har, I will now torture you and sell your liver on eBay!" Belkar jerkiness.
Personally, I think Belkar's evil and selfish, but not necessarily cruel. Remember that early strip when Belkar caught Haley using one of his healing potions? She acted all hurt that he would accuse her of stealing and Belkar actually looked like he felt horrible about it.

I think he gets more of a kick out of killing then bringing people to tears.

[Morgan Wick]

could also argue an EverQuest reference: The dwarves, giants and dragons of the Scars of Velious expansion (in this instance Haley's group would be the giants, seeing as how both other factions hate her group)

Well, one rival group thinks Hinjo was pure until he met the Order, and the other thinks Hinjo is pure evil. Sounds like they dislike each other too.


Y'know, we could see some amusing antics if Mr. Scruffy joins the reunited party...

:belkar: So, Vaarsuvius... still got that raven?
:vaarsuvius: Huh? Oh, yes of course.
POP!
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-8/1204323/mr_scruffy.jpgMEOW! pounce!
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6766/familierbn5.pngcaw?!


:vaarsuvius: (in #508): Perhaps if I enchanted some sort of finding-animal and sent it out to search...
This implies to me that V has not had his/her raven since #440.



One advantage of this development is that we can see a clear path for the plot now. Haley's stupidity means we do not need the city to be closed off physically. That in turn means we do not need much of anything to form the rescue group. Roy finds a way to communicate with Haley who leaves town for a day or two, V contacts her, and we are there.
The obvious way to contact is still the sword. Somebody touches it and can see Roy. However, the idea of a chain of communication has comic potential. But that gag often involves a half dozen people, each of which can only speak to two of the others. Here, it is difficult to stretch it that far.
Now one idea might be that only the first one to touch the sword can get to see Roy. We might have Belkar touch it, see Roy, and when he tells the others, they touch and still see nothing. Failing to convince them he is not pulling some weird gag, Belkar has to be convinced by Roy to leave the city so he can be contacted by V.
Unfortunately, Rich has thrown in a bunch of plot points (Roy going down to the mortal world, Celia showing up) that cannot be dismissed. Furthermore, we've learned so much about the current situation in Azure City that Haley can't leave for plot purposes, let alone Resistance purposes. Your first paragraph cannot come true anytime soon, because there's a lot of story to be told in Azure City and details like the composition of the slaves and the rival resistances can't just be given and then rendered irrelevant.

The most obvious way to keep Haley from reuniting with the group is to keep Roy from contacting her. But that means Roy needs a story-based reason to be down there, by which I mean it has to make a difference to the story whether he's down there or not. The second-most obvious way is for Cloister to prevent movement, which introduces fewer problems, though it does mean there's little story-based reason for Haley not to have tried, since the story-based reason we have is redundant with Cloister preventing movement. Of course, if Haley bumps into the Cloister while on the run from hobgoblins, then there's your story-based reason...

Your only-Belkar-can-see-Roy theory has merit, though, because it involves Haley not leaving and the only real control on Belkar being someone who can only talk to him (and the Mark of Justice). I can see that leading to complications when Belkar reunites with the non-Haley OOTS. Because Belkar has to take Roy's body for MoJ purposes, this gets Roy rezzed even if Haley does not rejoin the group right away. Haley would, of course, be concerned if Belkar just left and would chase after him... and suddenly your theory has less of an immunity to the problem I mentioned earlier.

Still, the idea of first-touching-is-only-seeing is still fraught with dramatic potential. What if Celia touches the sword? What if a random resistance member touches the sword and is disbelieved (it doesn't matter if anyone other than Haley or Belkar leaves)? What if Mr. Scruffy touches the sword and that counts?


does anyone else see the very scary slight possibility that this is turning into a reference of that really bad Patric Swayzy movie Ghost?

If so, that means (according to Wikipedia) that:
*Roy will meet some sort of medium that can hear ghosts but can't see them.
*The medium will contact an at-first disbelieving Haley, who will start believing when the medium starts saying things s/he could only learn from Roy (presumably humorous ones, or admonitions for Belkar).
*Roy will meet another ghost (possibly Eugene) and will begin physically altering the world after the other ghost gives him a bunch of claptrap about "focusing your emotions".
*The medium will start getting contacted by ghosts galore. Expect a cameo appearance by Miko in here.
*The medium will mess with Xykon's plot, and Roy will start messing with Xykon's (or Redcloak's) head.
*Xykon (or Redcloak) tracks down Haley and finds Belkar, who spills all the beans. Xykon (or Redcloak) threatens to kill Haley if everything isn't made right.
*Roy and Redcloak (or Xykon) converge on the medium's house. The medium flees, and Roy messes with Redcloak's (or Xykon's) head. Redcloak (or Xykon) is killed hilariously. (Obviously, that last point can't happen. Maybe Redcloak/Xykon is just a random hobbo?)
*Haley gets one last piece of evidence that Roy's ghost is about. Roy enters the medium's body and... um... anyway, Xykon (or Redcloak) once again threatens to kill Haley (or the medium). Chase scene. Xykon (or Redcloak) does something dumb. Glass falls on him and he's assumed dead.

Warning to FujinAkari: Cut the flaming.


And here is where your argument utterly fails. Just because she COULD do something, doesn't mean she DID. The Comic makes it quite clear that the possibility of V being unable to contact her due to HER location never even crossed her mind. She was waiting for him to get in touch, and assumed the problem to be on his end. Why in the WORLD would she consider leaving the city based on that assumption?

Answer: she wouldn't.

And here's where YOUR argument utterly fails.
The Comic makes it quite clear that the possibility of V being unable to contact her due to HER location never even crossed her mind. David's point is that it SHOULD have. Granted, he has the pseudo-omniscient viewpoint of knowing both sides of the story, and if he has a problem it's with separating what we know with what the characters know. Still, your post seems to make David's argument (or at least his "stupid" characterization) more convincing to me than it does yours.
She was waiting for him to get in touch, and assumed the problem to be on his end. And we all know what happens when you assume... (A lesson both of you could learn as well!)


Because she's leading a resistance instead?
We just learned she's leading a resistance because she hasn't left, not that she hasn't left because she's leading a resistance. And to prove that I'm an equal opportunity criticizer:


This is rather obvious circular reasoning.
But valid. Haley's personality is however Rich chooses to portray her, by definition. Your previous point shows that this may be inconsistent with her previous characterization, but that doesn't really equate with acting out of character (which only applies to fanfic by some definitions).


Now what in the world gives you an estimate that V tried to contact a mere 5-6 times? 504 & 505 suggest this has been a daily action of V and/or Durkon, indeed quite possibly much more often than daily.
:durkon: (in #505): V was writin' a new scryin' spell to find Haley all this time.
NOT doing any actual scrying.


Well, by Elan standards. However, I suspect V will have a different opinion when he discovers Haley could have saved her months of ceaseless labor by just taking a short hike.
I think this is one point FujinAkari and you can agree on, considering V comes across to me much like you come across to Fujin! Unless none of V, Haley, or Belkar find that out (which pretty much precludes Roy having anything to do with the reunion) and assuming that, if Cloister prevents movement, V/Haley/Belkar don't find that out either.

Now I'm thinking the two of you should probably move this to another thread and stop cluttering the main discussion thread.

[John Campbell]

Why is it that whenever one of your arguments is disproven, your reaction is to attack Rich's credibility, rather than simply admit being wrong?
Well one reason is that I am aware of my arguments and reasons. I am not aware of his reasoning or logic, so to accept his position is to accept he is right by fiat, and that is wrong by the laws of logic.
Uh... Rich is the AUTHOR. He IS right by fiat. That's how authorial fiat works.

This is a work of fiction, not a math book. You can decide that you dislike it. You can feel that it's poorly written. You cannot prove it wrong.

[Qualm]

it is evident to me that Celia is as dumb as sticks. For crying out loud, how observant do you have to be to realize that as natural mammals, humans would have no magical SA's or SQ's in their stat block. Somebody please point out to me why a person who is supposedly as smart as Roy is, and who should have a pretty decent wisdom too, would actually want to have a girlfriend like that beyond the fact that she practically threw herself at him?

About wise actions and high-Wisdom characters.... Technically, Miko had above-average Wisdom to cast Cure Light Wounds on herself -- but do you think her behaviour reflects that? Someone with her over-zealous, narrow-minded attitude should be about a 6 (if that). Wisdom should never have been given a number on the character sheet. Intelligence and something reflecting alertness or perception, sure, but wisdom is more a matter of role-playing, and can change much faster than a character sheet can. It's correspondingly hard to correlate a Wisdom score to actions.

More importantly, though, you can't call Celia stupid for being ignorant of mortal affairs. "Natural mammals?" What's natural about them when you live on the elemental plane of air, and everyone around you possesses inherent magic? That's natural! Do they teach about Earthly biology in sylph school? Should she look it up in her collection of Extra-Planar Geographic ?

People make many assumptions based on where and how they were raised. Have you ever had a player with an illiterate character (a barbarian, perhaps)? Sometimes such players make mistakes: "What is she reading?" "What does the sign say?" "I look at the map...." Reading is taken for granted by those who can do it, to such an extent that they don't truly realise what it would be to lack that skill.

I lived some years in Japan, which has a different culture than that of a typically Western nation. Some assumptions are just wrong. Sometimes people react differently that what you thought they would. Some Japanese are surprised that I can use chopsticks. If you think about it, it's no more surprising than the concept of Japanese men being able to do up a necktie, but you have to think about it first. Non-Asians rarely ever use chopsticks in the media, and everyone knows Westerners historically used knives and forks, so it surprises a little when they see non-Asians with chopsticks.

Likewise, I was once surprised seeing graffiti in an Indian script: "Oh, they write graffiti too?" Well, gee, of course they do, right? But it had not occurred to me until I saw it.

Differences between beings of separate magical planes of existence would be far more pronounced! Really, it's surprising they managed to even have sex. They are going to have to work a bit to overcome their differences to make their relationship work, but that doesn't mean the goal isn't worthwhile.

[xyzchyx]

More importantly, though, you can't call Celia stupid for being ignorant of mortal affairs. "Natural mammals?" What's natural about them when you live on the elemental plane of air, and everyone around you possesses inherent magic? That's natural! Do they teach about Earthly biology in sylph school? Should she look it up in her collection of Extra-Planar Geographic ?Bear in mind that according to D&D cosmology, the prime material plane *IS* the center of the multiverse, so there is some reason to expect that many of the natural beings found on the prime material would be common knowledge to anyone, even somebody from another plane. And even if you want to concede that Celia just doesn't happen to get out very much, just how clueless do you have to be to want to Plane Shift to any location where you don't know squat about the inhabitants you might find there?

[David Argall]

:vaarsuvius: (in #508): Perhaps if I enchanted some sort of finding-animal and sent it out to search...
This implies to me that V has not had his/her raven since #440.
Possible, but only so. My bet is that the bird will be back the next time there is plot need of it.




Unfortunately, Rich has thrown in a bunch of plot points (Roy going down to the mortal world, Celia showing up) that cannot be dismissed. Furthermore, we've learned so much about the current situation in Azure City that Haley can't leave for plot purposes, let alone Resistance purposes. Your first paragraph cannot come true anytime soon, because there's a lot of story to be told in Azure City and details like the composition of the slaves and the rival resistances can't just be given and then rendered irrelevant.

Oh they can be. In fact our writer has left a fair number of such points dangling of late. The slaves in particular may be no more than a way of showing Haley leading the forces of good. Still, they do at least hint the plot will be going that way.




Haley would, of course, be concerned if Belkar just left and would chase after him... and suddenly your theory has less of an immunity to the problem I mentioned earlier.
I doubt it is that serious. There are several ways that Haley might be persuaded to let him go, or to come with him. And since she is CG, her determination to stop him is questionable. As is her physical ability. He is the full BAB melee type after all.



But valid.
A logical fallacy is by definition invalid. It may lead to the correct conclusion, but it remains invalid.



Haley's personality is however Rich chooses to portray her, by definition. Your previous point shows that this may be inconsistent with her previous characterization, but that doesn't really equate with acting out of character
We may use different terms, but it still amounts to story flaw. The character is not to just act randomly, at least not without our learning why.



:durkon: (in #505): V was writin' a new scryin' spell to find Haley all this time.
NOT doing any actual scrying.
Just how long "all this time" is is unclear. However, it seems to have only started with "the last port". If we assume this to be a 7th level spell, D&D would suggest a period of 7 weeks, which means V and/or Durkon had been casting, perhaps daily, perhaps more often, for a month before that. [And Durkon may have been casting since.] And while magical research is a full time job, taking a half-hour a day to cast some scrying should merely prolong the time needed for the research.



Uh... Rich is the AUTHOR. He IS right by fiat. That's how authorial fiat works.

This is a work of fiction, not a math book. You can decide that you dislike it. You can feel that it's poorly written. You cannot prove it wrong.

In the technical sense, true. A work of fiction is a limited set of facts, and one can always posit a larger set of unstated facts that change or reverse the meaning of the stated facts.
In the practical sense, no. Rich may be the author, but you are the consumer, and without you, his work is nothing. There is an equality here that often enough has you in the superior position. If you don't like it, the ultimate result is not at all what the author wants. One way or another, and with or without denials or protests, he does have to bend to your will, not necessarily as much as you desire, but he still must bend.

So when we say a part of the book is wrong, our opinion counts. The writer does not get to say "I wrote it. It can only mean what I say it does." We will be able to tell him he does not know what he is talking about, and be correct.

[FujinAkari]

Here I was preparing to write a long and detailed reply... and then I come to this section...


Why in the world would she assume the problem was on the other end? We are discussing here whether a real Haley would have made that assumption, not whether the comic Haley did.

the REAL Haley? Order of the Stick is -not- based on a true story, there is no REAL Haley to discuss. Every Strip is canonical, and you can't simply disclude -any- of them merely because they don't fit your argument. The strip and Rich are the final arbiter, and there is no argument against the facts presented within. You can argue interpretation, but you can't simply declare a strip, or specific events of a strip, invalid.



Warning to FujinAkari: Cut the flaming.

Firstly, I don't believe you are able to issue warnings, so please don't pretend to be a moderator, that is somewhat frowned upon here :)

Secondly, I don't believe I was flaiming. Saying that David's argument utterly fails, it is a statement of fact. I never called David any names whatsoever, nor did I ever attack him personally, though I did ask him why he always responded by attacking Rich (a point you'll notice he clarified, rather than denying)


And here's where YOUR argument utterly fails.
The Comic makes it quite clear that the possibility of V being unable to contact her due to HER location never even crossed her mind. David's point is that it SHOULD have.

Not quite... you seem to be coming into the argument a little bit late, so let me somewhat recap where we've been:

In the 529 Thread, I asked why people were assuming that Cloister barred Teleportation. David (among others) responded that if Magical and Physical access to the city were not barred, Haley would have left the city after a few days when V and Durkon proved unable to contact her.

I responded that I thought he was severely overstating Haley's proposed reaction. To leap from "The sky changed color" to "V and Durkon can't contact me within the city" is quite a mental leap, and to claim that Haley's presence in the city -proved- that she couldn't leave was to ignore the possibility that she simply hadn't considered the necessity of leaving. ((A lot more discussion went on here, but that is the cliffnotes version))

Then 530 comes out and, while not actually addressing the original question of whether teleportation was restricted, did utterly annihilate David's argument by proving that, indeed, Haley never HAD attempted to leave the city.

So David's argument (at least the argument I was responding too) was "Haley tried to leave the city, but was prevented by Cloister." At this point, he seems to have refined his argument to "Well, Haley SHOULD have tried to leave the city, but the Giant made a mistake."

See my response to his post to get my thoughts on that :)


Still, your post seems to make David's argument (or at least his "stupid" characterization) more convincing to me than it does yours.

:smallconfused: But... my argument was that Haley's presence in the city doesn't necessarily mean that Cloister is prohibiting movement... that isn't even contested anymore!


She was waiting for him to get in touch, and assumed the problem to be on his end. And we all know what happens when you assume... (A lesson both of you could learn as well!)

This comment is actually rather ironic, considering one of my biggest problems with David's speculation was the sheer number of assumptions he made. You seem to be disagreeing with me... but all your words seem to reinforce my position :P

Again, I think you just don't understand what is being argued, no offense :)


Now I'm thinking the two of you should probably move this to another thread and stop cluttering the main discussion thread.

With all due respect, this is the discussion thread for comic 530, as long as we're discussing the implications of said comic, the discussion belongs here.


We may use different terms, but it still amounts to story flaw. The character is not to just act randomly, at least not without our learning why.

Ah, but it is explained why. She never considered the possibility that her location had anything to do with V's inability to contact her. You seem to be arguing that she SHOULD have considered that... but again, that is the problem with basing your arguments on assumptions :P.

It isn't really a plothole, just a plot point you disagree with.

[Morgan Wick]

I doubt it is that serious. There are several ways that Haley might be persuaded to let him go, or to come with him. And since she is CG, her determination to stop him is questionable. As is her physical ability. He is the full BAB melee type after all.

I am reminded of Haley implying she was OK with Belkar dying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), and I'm now thinking she may need to be convinced to go after him (perhaps by Celia?), not to stay and let him go. I'll let this point stand.

A lot also depends on the state V/Durkon/Elan/Hinjo and company are in when they contact anyone - I just realized that #508 indicates that Hinjo is considering finding a spot on dry land where they can base their eventual counterattack. They do not believe they can retake the city without allies, and if they can get in touch with Haley or Belkar - or anyone else inside the city - and learn there are not one but three separate resistances, they might be a little more optimistic about their chances. That might be more valuable to Hinjo than actually reuniting Haley or Belkar with the OOTS! I can see Hinjo sending three "envoys" to each resistance, to try and coordinate a counterattack: perhaps Elan - or a recently reunited Haley or Belkar - to Haley's group; Kazumi, Daigo, or maybe Kubota or Therkla :) to the "evil Hinjo" group (on second thought, Kubota or anyone associated with him is a BAD idea for ANY group); and Hinjo himself, or Kazumi or Daigo, to the "minions of Miko" group.



the REAL Haley? Order of the Stick is -not- based on a true story, there is no REAL Haley to discuss. Every Strip is canonical, and you can't simply disclude -any- of them merely because they don't fit your argument. The strip and Rich are the final arbiter, and there is no argument against the facts presented within. You can argue interpretation, but you can't simply declare a strip, or specific events of a strip, invalid.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief

Granted, I don't think this was serious enough to pull me out of the strip.


Firstly, I don't believe you are able to issue warnings, so please don't pretend to be a moderator, that is somewhat frowned upon here :)

I tend to try to be a "moderator's pet", both on message boards and in real life. As you can imagine, I wouldn't have any friends even if I was trying. :D


Not quite... you seem to be coming into the argument a little bit late, so let me somewhat recap where we've been:
Well, there are several points and sub-points cutting back and forth. (This applies to your next response as well.) That said, the fact that this argument has little to do with the ostensible issue at hand is a little sad and makes you both look petty. On the issue of whether Cloister restricts movement, David's original argument is actually one of the weaker arguments you could make, as the present argument has obviously showed - and has nothing to do with whether it restricts teleportation! My own post that came before Argall's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3912126#post3912126) is a lot more sound than that!


This comment is actually rather ironic, considering one of my biggest problems with David's speculation was the sheer number of assumptions he made. You seem to be disagreeing with me... but all your words seem to reinforce my position :P
Well, I did say both of you could stand to learn that lesson. :D And I'm trying to stay fairly impartial. In terms of the arguments themselves, I'm agreeing with David, but I'm trying to call both of you when you're getting too heated.


Ah, but it is explained why. She never considered the possibility that her location had anything to do with V's inability to contact her. You seem to be arguing that she SHOULD have considered that... comment from me: When I said exactly that, you accused me of misunderstanding the argument! but again, that is the problem with basing your arguments on assumptions :P.

It isn't really a plothole, just a plot point you disagree with.
I think I'm seeing a critical difference between you two here. You're willing to take whatever Rich gives you as gospel and trust that he has a plan in mind and everything will work out. David, on the other hand, has a certain set of expectations he expects Haley to follow, and in his opinion, Haley didn't follow those expectations.

Now, David is partly being motivated by just how committed he is to his own preconception, and I'm having a hard time figuring out how much of his argument is sophistry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophistry). That's partly because at least part of his argument is clouded by the fact that he knows for a fact something that Haley does not know.

I want to be able to make a decision one way or the other here, or at least choose an argument that follows a middle ground, but I'm having trouble figuring out how much weight to put into each argument.

[Xiander]

David, please correct me if i am wrong but i believe to have stumbled upon the point of your argument. I will try formulate it in a short and precise form to minimise misunderstandings.

1. Haley has reason to suspect a spell or spell like effect is to blame for the sky changing colour.

2. Haley has the knowledge that spells can prevent Durkon and V from contacting her magically.

3. Haley has the knowledge that a spell that covers an area of land has a maximal reach and that it is possible to exit the area it covers.

4. If 1, 2 and 3 is correct, it would be stupid for haley not to test if this was in fact what prevented her team mates from contacting her.


I hope i have made a rather precise recap of the argument. please tell me if i have. I would comment on why i still find it very beleveable that haley has not made any field trips to test the these, but i don't have time right now, so i must return to the topic later.

[Roderick_BR]

:roy: Going to KILL you!!!
Best line ever! :smallbiggrin:

And funny to see people taking PC death with the usual disregard, as Belkar put it best: "Reduced impact of character mortality".

And I agree that Haley may suspect about some weird spell be messing things up (more than normal). Maybe she just doesn't want to risk venturing far and miss any possible rescue attempt, or let her resistence alone. There's a chance she did scout around the city when V and Durkon were not casting divination spells.

[vikbra]

"the other, other side" hehe priceless

and I loved the python reference btw:D

Wohoo my first post ever!

[FujinAkari]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief

Granted, I don't think this was serious enough to pull me out of the strip.

I don't think so either, but let me go ahead and formulate an argument to David's new assertion, just so you can try and figure out a middle ground (and to get the topic of conversation away from the "meta-argument" it is [currently at).

The argument, as I understand it, is that Haley isn't meek enough to have sat there and waited for rescue, she should have actively gone out and attempted to make contact.

Within this assertion, there is a second, unstated premise, that Haley had reason to believe the city itself was the reason for V's difficulty in contacting her, thus giving her immediate impetus for leaving.

I will be dealing with these premises separately. I will also ONLY be dealing with the situation immediately after Azure City fell, I think we can all agree that once the Resistance actually formed, Haley had a duty to remain, so I am looking at her motivations the first week or so.

Premise 1: Should Haley have tried to leave the city to re-establish contact on her own?

The first thing that needs to be considered is Haley's survivability. Haley is a Rogue, and has spent most of her life within cities. Thus, it stands to reason that she likely has very few (if any) ranks in Survival, and would have a much harder time "roughing it" in the wilderness. At her level, it is doubtful that anything in Azure City could successfully spot her, while she is infinately more likely to run into enemies with scent or some similar ability if she leaves the relative "safety" of the city walls. Thus, Haley is considerably more equipped to survive within Azure City than to make a lengthy trek through hostile lands.

There is the additional problem of where she would go, the only known nearby city is Cliffport, and that is over a thousand miles away! There is likely a closer friendly city, but how far away it actually is is anyone's guess. It is very likely that Haley literally has no where else to go without -seriously- planning an overland journey, and you don't plan leave on a month-long (at least!) journey because you haven't been contacted for a few days.

((I originally misremembered Cliffport's distance from Azure City, so the above paragraph has been editted. Thanks Facto!))

Additionally, we must consider that Haley seems to be the tactician for OOTS (she is the one who attempts to plan the ambush before Miko challenges the Ogres, and she is also the one who sees through Xykon's "shell game.") as such, she would be very keenly aware of how vital having a scout inside Azure City will be to Hinjo if and when he returns, and so she will be more reluctant to leave as a result.

Thus, I see no reason for Haley to leave the city, unless it is to assist V contact her.

Premise 2: Should Haley be able to conclude that her location is responcible for V's inability to make contact?

It must be remembered that Haley is not a caster, and very likely has no ranks in Knowledge: Arcane. Thus, what she is aware of must be at the very basic level, or based in personal experience.

That said, I do not consider it unreasonable to assume her to be aware that you can ward against certain spells. As a rogue, she had doubtlessly at least made contact with some other rogue who has used an auger to learn specific information about a victim/location, and thus would be aware that said spells could fail.

What is less certain (indeed, I consider unlikely) is that Haley would connect a spell used to learn information about a target, and a spell learned to speak to a person over long distances. While both are Divination spells, they don't immediately seem related to the untrained.

David has asserted that Haley should have figured it out when the sky changed color, but that assertion is flawed. We do not know when the sky turned purple, but we know it wasn't right as Cloister was cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html). Magic tends to have an immediate reaction, and so since Cloister did not change the sky's color, we must assume that the discoloration is associated with the rift, not Cloister.

That doesn't necessarily defeat David's point though, Haley could easily misidentify the rift as the cause of her problem and still leave the city, right? Two problems with that:

1) We don't know when the rift shows up. It happens sometime between Cloister and Roy's Return. It might show up the next day, two weeks later, or two months later. Thus, it is very likely that the rift wasn't even present during the few days following the battle, making it impossible for Haley to attach any significance to it.

2) Haley knows what the rift is. She was told all about the different gates during the trial, and can see that the rift is eminating from approximately where the throne room used to be. Since all the other magic is functioning normally (as Tsukiko routinely demonstrates) there is no reason for Haley to assume the rift is interfering with V's magic.

Thus, again, don't see Haley coming to the conclusion that she needs to leave Azure City so V can contact her.

Whew!


I think I'm seeing a critical difference between you two here. You're willing to take whatever Rich gives you as gospel and trust that he has a plan in mind and everything will work out. David, on the other hand, has a certain set of expectations he expects Haley to follow, and in his opinion, Haley didn't follow those expectations.

Sort of. I wouldn't call myself a Giant Fangirl, to whom Rich can do no wrong, but I am much less willing to indulge in speculation than David is. David projects the plot and fills in the blanks, where as I am very minimalist in my analysis. If we don't know something, I won't base my argument on it, whereas David bases his arguments on his best guesses.

Thus, I tend to take issue with some of the things he says, due to my refusal to project where the plot is going and, thus, refusing to accept David's assumptions. Conversely, David overanalyses every aspect of his predictions and thinks himself into a corner, more likely to feel disbelief when the plot doesn't follow his train of thought.

[Fabio_MP]

New comic is up.

finally someone showing a little of common sense!

good work Belkar

and nice strip!

hope to see soon Roy back

[RebelRogue]

It is a reference to the popular diskussion about wether a band aid should be removed slowly or quikly, and which of the alternatives result in less pain.
Oh, of course... silly me. Don 't know why I didn't pick up on that metaphor...

[fractal]

For those arguing whether or not Haley should have suspected Azure City was immune to magical communication, let's note that even V. hasn't really figured that out for sure, despite direct evidence.

[factotum]

Granted, if Haley left, she would likely be headed to Cliffport, which wouldn't be more than a week's journey away

How do you figure that? We know it took three days for the Mechane to get from Cliffport to Azure City. We don't know how fast the Mechane is, of course, but it's an airship when all's said and done, and those were good for around 100mph in the real world. Even if we assume the craft is only capable of a relatively pathetic 20mph, it still makes Cliffport more than a thousand miles from Azure City. I don't see Haley, or anyone else, travelling more than a thousand miles on foot in a week!

[FujinAkari]

How do you figure that? We know it took three days for the Mechane to get from Cliffport to Azure City. We don't know how fast the Mechane is, of course, but it's an airship when all's said and done, and those were good for around 100mph in the real world. Even if we assume the craft is only capable of a relatively pathetic 20mph, it still makes Cliffport more than a thousand miles from Azure City. I don't see Haley, or anyone else, travelling more than a thousand miles on foot in a week!

Oh wow... total misrecall there. For some reason I thought the airship had made the journey in three hours, not three days. I'll go back and correct :P

Thank you!

[maxon]

The Scruffinator? Whiskers von Thorbugger. Ha ha ha ha. Random pop culture references - ooo no, not that. Belkar is seriously beginning to compete with Elan for favourite OOTs character ever.

[Castamir]

Bear in mind that according to D&D cosmology, the prime material plane *IS* the center of the multiverse, so there is some reason to expect that many of the natural beings found on the prime material would be common knowledge to anyone, even somebody from another plane. And even if you want to concede that Celia just doesn't happen to get out very much, just how clueless do you have to be to want to Plane Shift to any location where you don't know squat about the inhabitants you might find there?
Uhm, it's the center only for us, humans on whom the prime material plane has been modelled after. I see no reason why it would be any different from the other planes. Heck, I guess that in the Auran language it's the Air plane which has a similar name.

And I bet Celia learned quite a lot beforehand. You're just underestimating how much of what you take for granted is local to your culture.

[zyphyr]

Uhm, it's the center only for us, humans on whom the prime material plane has been modelled after. I see no reason why it would be any different from the other planes. Heck, I guess that in the Auran language it's the Air plane which has a similar name.

The layout of the planes in the D&D cosmology is actually quite specific. Claiming that some other plane could legitimately be seen as the center is approximately the same as saying that the center of a pizza is actually some piece of pepperoni out near the edge.

That isn't to say that the bulk of the inhabitants of a given plane aren't going to consider their home plane to be the most important plane and be largely ignorant of what actually goes on on other planes - if it doesn't have an effect on their routine existence, the information isn't important.

[Friendly_Nut]

Ok, despite any other people that are argueing away in this thread, I'd like to say that I would have thought it logical for Haley to LEAVE Azure City a.s.a.p., since 1.) there are enemies in there that she (and her associates) is/are just not up to, so it's dangerous to stay and risk encountering them. And 2.) as she assumes herself in the comic: the other half of the party will/might be able to find/contact her via magic (no matter WHERE she is), so there's no NEED to stay put either. (As opposing to IF the other half had NO magic and would have to search for her "manually", propably starting from the last know point they know she was...)

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.

[Hidalgo]

oh.. It's so so sad..
Great timing, just on Valentine!!!

[xyzchyx]

Uhm, it's the center only for usIncorrect. It actually *IS* the center.


And I bet Celia learned quite a lot beforehand.
Not even bothering to find out even a hint of the sort of SA's or SQ's to expect in a typical inhabitant's stat block before going to another plane falls considerably short of what I would consider to be "a lot". My prognosis remains.... at least her hair is the right color to fit the stereotype.

Oh well, I have to concede that it probably opens up quite a few doors for gags to come.

[Migodnar]

Ok, despite any other people that are argueing away in this thread, I'd like to say that I would have thought it logical for Haley to LEAVE Azure City a.s.a.p., since 1.) there are enemies in there that she (and her associates) is/are just not up to, so it's dangerous to stay and risk encountering them. And 2.) as she assumes herself in the comic: the other half of the party will/might be able to find/contact her via magic (no matter WHERE she is), so there's no NEED to stay put either. (As opposing to IF the other half had NO magic and would have to search for her "manually", propably starting from the last know point they know she was...)

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.

I think it's alot harder for The Resistance to resist if they leave the city. They wouldn't be able to counterattack the hobgoblins at all so it's like they are surrendering.

[xyzchyx]

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.I think her explanation of having no means to contact or find the others herself makes for reasonable logic. When one is trapped away from friends and family, with no means to reach them, the wisest course of action is typically to stay where you were so that they have the best chance of finding you. It's a bit much to assume that Haley, who has no actual training in magic at all, would realize that V could contact her without even knowing where she was beforehand.

[Eogan]

Ok, despite any other people that are argueing away in this thread, I'd like to say that I would have thought it logical for Haley to LEAVE Azure City a.s.a.p., since 1.) there are enemies in there that she (and her associates) is/are just not up to, so it's dangerous to stay and risk encountering them. And 2.) as she assumes herself in the comic: the other half of the party will/might be able to find/contact her via magic (no matter WHERE she is), so there's no NEED to stay put either. (As opposing to IF the other half had NO magic and would have to search for her "manually", propably starting from the last know point they know she was...)

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.

Respectively:

1) Her "associates" would be in far greater danger if she hadn't rescued them all from slavery.

2) She's waiting for her party to arrive from the sea. Where does she go? Into the mountains that are so impassable that the Azurites didn't even guard them, or across the broad, flat terrain, where she would be completely in the open and where she has to cross back THROUGH the city to get to the sea? Remember, whatever she chooses, she has to drag Belkar and a corpse with her.

It's also worth noting that the rest of her party are with Hinjo, and she'll expect them to be coming back to try to retake the city, which makes her presence, intelligence-gathering, and force-gathering operations quite significant.

[fehler]

How can Haley and Belkar assume V hooked up with Elan and Durkon in the fleet? They weren't there for that. Part of their plan should be scouring the city looking for a sign of V, in case he didn't make the boat, too.

[Vulion]

On the topic of whether or not Haley should leave Azure city, I believe that she should stay. Azure City is still the focal point of the plot, the next major plot turn will happen within the city, whether it is Xykon blasting away at the last remnants of the resistance because a news report interrupted his favorite show or Hinjo leading a massive charge to reclaim his city. In either situation, I believe Haley will be critical, either as the person that leads the resistance to safety or the main source of intelligence for the invading Azure soldiers.

So in many ways, Haley needs to be there cause it would be an awful shame if somethings happens that she could have helped with, but she's not there.

[Charles Phipps]

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.

why would she leave?

She's a hero.

There's evil to fight.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

why would she leave?

She's a hero.

There's evil to fight.

True, there is evil to fight, but she would be better off getting more and better help.

I'm still not sure of where the Cloister Spell ends... If Haley could make it to the caves outside of the city, Vaarsuvius' spell SHOULD have found her. Since it didn't, I'm thinking that Xykon's spell covers a larger area than I originally thought.

Having Hinjo, Durkon, Vaarsuvius and even Elan along to battle Xykon, and more importantly the hobgoblins, would probably reform the three rebel groups into one stronger one, and not at odds with each other.

[Zinthius]

Uncharacteristic is fairly easy. Haley has been the active sort in just about every part of the story. She is not the passive princess who waits for rescue. Not a complete list...
She takes the position of assistant leader. Not appointed. She creates it.
She gets kidnapped. She rescues herself.
The party confronts the bandits. She quickly lures one bandit into a trap. She leads the attempt to rescue Elan.
The party goes after the ogres. Haley quickly volunteers.
She decides the party is going to retreat after the fall of the castle.
She decides to rescue Roy's body.
And now she creates the resistance.

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

So could she get the idea that leaving the city might work?
She knows V & Durkon have not contacted her. To the best of her knowledge, she assumes them to still be alive. [Obviously not a certainity, but she knows the ship got away and she & Belkar use language that assumes they survived]
She knows the sky has gone weird in the city.
She knows that local conditions can ruin spells. [the anti-magic cells for an obvious example]
We can go on, but already, what is so hard to deduct here? She can't know [indeed, we don't yet], but it should be obvious that something here in the city may be blocking communication, and thus that a short trip out of the city would allow communication. It's an easily tested idea under her control. So why doesn't she think of it?

I see where you're going with this and you do make some good points, but for the sake of lively intellectual debate I would like to point out a few things... Haley's not "sitting around waiting for the rest of the team. As you pointed out, she's leading the resistance at the moment. It's not a matter of waiting around, it's about setting a priority and using a sense of logic. Assuming for the moment that she has no idea that something's keeping V from finding her, she has no idea where they might be, whereas V has (or rather should have) the means to locate her. So she can either lead the resistance that would pretty much be lost without her while she waits for the others to find her, or she can leave the resistance to it's own demise to go off looking for the others, who may very well still be at sea where she can't reach them anyway. Strategically speaking, the second option would be futile and possibly could cause more death and suffering to the Azurites than needed. (Again, based on the assumption that she doesn't realise that something's blocking V from finding her)

Also, while I agree the possibility should have occured to her about the sky and such, remember that she's not just sitting around doing nothing. If she had nothing but time to think of that then maybe, but she's also got other things going on like raids on the goblins and planning strategies and whatnot. The thought may not have occured to her simply because she's had so many other things on her mind. (Remember, it was she who was devising the plan to get the air freshener to put on Roy) For lack of a better example, have you ever forgotten you had something on the stove or in the oven because you answered the phone and got into a lively discussion? (or know someone else who has?)

[Roderick_BR]

Ok, despite any other people that are argueing away in this thread, I'd like to say that I would have thought it logical for Haley to LEAVE Azure City a.s.a.p., since 1.) there are enemies in there that she (and her associates) is/are just not up to, so it's dangerous to stay and risk encountering them. And 2.) as she assumes herself in the comic: the other half of the party will/might be able to find/contact her via magic (no matter WHERE she is), so there's no NEED to stay put either. (As opposing to IF the other half had NO magic and would have to search for her "manually", propably starting from the last know point they know she was...)

She DID not leave AC, and I fail to see a good reason why - her "explanation" didn't convince me - but, alas, there is nothing I can do about it.
3.) She is a hero, and thought that the city was not in good hands left to the others resistance forces to take care of the things.

[Kilbia]

I keep wanting Roy's line in the final panel to be a song line.

Is it? And if so, can someone hook me up?

[Friendly_Nut]

why would she leave?

She's a hero.

There's evil to fight.

THIS is why: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0467.html (you can ignore the second page with exception of the first panel)

My reason to assume she thinks there is some way to find/contact her for the magic part of the party is because she pretty much hints this in saying "I've considered trying to find them, but I wouldn't know where to start. They have all the magic you know?" Like she is saying that they have ways to find her easier with magic than for her to find them without magic.

Moreover, in 337 we (the readers) witnessed there is some way to send a message to somebody - the whole Nale keeps getting to verbous for the spell story when sending the "ransom note" about Julia to Roy - and in 338 Roy tells Elan and Haley, who come running in the picture about it and being contacted by Nale - who is not there - via a spell. Haley couln't talk properly then, but her listenig was quite as good as ever. So she KNOWS there is a magic way to at least CONTACT her, which she expresses most likely in 530.


I can understand that once she got ... attached to the resistance, she doesn't want to leave (them), but why for crying out loud didn't she leave in the first place, a.s.a.p. and without even getting attached?



And on the "she has to get around with belkar and the body of roy part":
I don't know how resurrection works in the OOTS-Universe or even in D&D, but we saw that magic user that got... fed to the Roc accidentially when he mixed up the teleportation reduced to pretty much a spine and Skull and he can still be raised. So, in a desperate situation like this, I on my part might have come up with the desperate solution of cutting off Roys head or so and only taking that with me. On Belkar - in 524 she didn't seem too opposite to the risk of... losing him if the possible gain is good enough, so I can only speculate how much she would have let him hinder her.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts on the situation, no more, no less. I - up to this point - fail to see why she hasn't left for good when she had the chance (and wasn't attached yet). But one hasn't to understand every detail of a comic story to enjoy it. I do (enjoy OOTS).

[Geno9999]

He has joined the choir invisible! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFYJe2o2yJM)

And to think that we didn't like random Pop culture references.:smallbiggrin:

And now for something completely different.
What if Roy can use his new Ghost powers to invade people's dreams? If he can, then he can get a message across. Maybe screw something with the dream too.:smallbiggrin:

[Doug Lampert]

Incorrect. It actually *IS* the center.

Not even bothering to find out even a hint of the sort of SA's or SQ's to expect in a typical inhabitant's stat block before going to another plane falls considerably short of what I would consider to be "a lot". My prognosis remains.... at least her hair is the right color to fit the stereotype.

Oh well, I have to concede that it probably opens up quite a few doors for gags to come.

Now you're just being silly. There IS NO STAT BLOCK for a typical human! They don't even HAVE an entry in the Monster Manual!

This has been mentioned IN THE STRIP, RECENTLY, yet you complain that she hasn't looked at this non-existant stat block. Bah. I feel the urge to mention who's being stupid and it isn't Celia.

And a typical inhabitant of the PMP? Would that be goblinoids, elves, gnomes, aberations, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, or something else?

Just what SA's and SQ's common to inhabitants of the PMP? Damn near all of them actually.

WtF do you think Celia should need to know all that much more about Roy than he knows about her?

DougL

[xyzchyx]

Now you're just being silly. There IS NO STAT BLOCK for a typical human!Sure there is... Human NPC's have stat blocks, as do any pregenned PC's.


This has been mentioned IN THE STRIP, RECENTLY, yet you complain that she hasn't looked at this non-existant stat block. Bah. I feel the urge to mention who's being stupid and it isn't Celia.Let's see... I call Celia, a fictitious character, a dough-head and you respond by coming just short of outright saying that *I*, a real flesh-and-blood human being, am the stupid one? I trust you can see how that could be problematic.


And a typical inhabitant of the PMP? Would that be goblinoids, elves, gnomes, aberations, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, or something else?I did specify typical _natural_ inhabitant, which, when not counting creatures of animal intelligence or lower, the standard PC races are by far the most numerous (and humans, at least in most campaigns that I've seen, accorded the single highest frequency of all).


WtF do you think Celia should need to know all that much more about Roy than he knows about her?Knowing that humans are mundane isn't a particularly tall order. I am incredulous that you seem to be taking so much offense at my having expressed an opinion that you evidently disagree with.

[FujinAkari]

Sure there is... Human NPC's have stat blocks, as do any pregenned PC's.

And neither of these are resources available to characters (Nonplayer or otherwise)

[David Argall]

the REAL Haley? Order of the Stick is -not- based on a true story, there is no REAL Haley to discuss.
Again, there is a jump in logic here. There was no discussion of "the real Haley", only "a real Haley".
Haley in the strip does X. But what would a real Haley do? Does she do X? Y? A? This is a question we ask of every comic and every character. If we find the answer is "not X" too often, we stop reading because the thing strikes us as stupid. [We of course need to note that "real" here need have no connection to reality, nor to anything remotely like it. It is the reality of the story we consider. But even for our imaginary Haley, we try to construct a "real" Haley to measure her actions by.]



Every Strip is canonical,
All sorts of strips and stories have realized this is wrong and have declared some or all of the past strips to have been dreams, illusions, or other errors. So no, the idea that all strips are canon is simply wrong.



The strip and Rich are the final arbiter, and there is no argument against the facts presented within. You can argue interpretation, but you can't simply declare a strip, or specific events of a strip, invalid.
Of course I can. Now whether anybody will listen is another story, but I can certainly make that statement.

However, the writer is only the final visible arbiter [and sometimes not even that. Many a writer has to contend with an editor or such who tells him "Make these changes, or we will make them for you."] The strip is posted here for the purpose of being read. If we were to walk away, the strip would be a failure, and would likely vanish rather quickly. What we think rules the writer, at least any who want their words read.



but it is explained why. She never considered the possibility that her location had anything to do with V's inability to contact her.
This merely pushes the problem back a step. She is still acting in a very strange way.



It isn't really a plothole, just a plot point you disagree with.
There really isn't a difference between the two.



Premise 1: Should Haley have tried to leave the city to re-establish contact on her own?

The first thing that needs to be considered is Haley's survivability. Haley is a Rogue, and has spent most of her life within cities.
Haley spends nearly all the comic until the party reaches Azure City in the wilderness. Origens also suggests at least one additional long period out of the city. D&D can be rather poor in modeling such experience, but the idea that Haley is helpless in the wilds won't wash.



, Haley is considerably more equipped to survive within Azure City than to make a lengthy trek through hostile lands.

It is very likely that Haley literally has no where else to go without -seriously- planning an overland journey, and you don't plan leave on a month-long (at least!) journey because you haven't been contacted for a few days.
Now here we seem to have a major misunderstanding. The idea is not that Haley leaves the city and effectively never comes back. Rather, she leaves the city for a long weekend camp-out.
Nothing has happened for a week now. So she hikes a day or so away from the city, stays there a few days, and by then she either has established communication [which seems to be the case] or still is not getting anything, in which case, she would probably return to the city and make alternate plans.




she would be very keenly aware of how vital having a scout inside Azure City will be to Hinjo if and when he returns, and so she will be more reluctant to leave as a result.
Again, this is an objection to her leaving for a very long period. But a scout who is not in contact is worthless, and so Haley needs to get in contact.



Thus, I see no reason for Haley to leave the city, unless it is to assist V contact her.
But that [or Durkon contacting her] is why she would leave the city.



Premise 2: Should Haley be able to conclude that her location is responcible for V's inability to make contact?
Here we have an overstating. Haley does not need to conclude. She only needs to suspect. If she is wrong, no biggie and she goes on to other things. But if she is right, she has achieved much. Under such conditions, you do things you are even pretty sure won't work.



That said, I do not consider it unreasonable to assume her to be aware that you can ward against certain spells.
What is less certain (indeed, I consider unlikely) is that Haley would connect a spell used to learn information about a target, and a spell learned to speak to a person over long distances. While both are Divination spells, they don't immediately seem related to the untrained.
You are reasoning the opposite of the untrained here. The first thing the untrained would learn on this subject would be that X stops magic. Only later would our novice learn that X stops magic A, but not magic B. Moreover, we have Haley in contact with anti-magic cells, which stop all magic. So she has the information that something could be blocking the magic communication.
And of course, once again, we are talking about testing a theory here. She does not need an understanding of the principles involved. She need merely know that there can be such effects, and that she knows. Sara's school has known wards for one example.



We do not know when the sky turned purple, but we know it wasn't right as Cloister was cast (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html). Magic tends to have an immediate reaction, and so since Cloister did not change the sky's color, we must assume that the discoloration is associated with the rift, not Cloister.
But in 484, Cloister did have an immediate, massive, and apparently quite visible reaction. Since we are talking of late at night [not to mention our artist may not have wanted to show us quite yet what the changes were, and may not have even decided on them], we are making a major assumption in thinking the sky didn't turn purple rapidly.
Which brings up the next point. Haley and Belkar were staying inside and out of sight. Their first chance to notice the purple sky was quite possibly not until the next day.



1) We don't know when the rift shows up. It happens sometime between Cloister and Roy's Return. It might show up the next day, two weeks later, or two months later. Thus, it is very likely that the rift wasn't even present during the few days following the battle, making it impossible for Haley to attach any significance to it.
This is changing the possible to the very likely. The very statement "We don't know when..." shows that. And while it is a slender support, Haley's pointing out of the big hole in the sky tends to suggest the size is stable. [She doesn't say it is growing, and that is a natural remark about something she deems highly dangerous. Her remark fits much better if it has been the same size for a long time, but she has no idea for just how much longer.]



Since all the other magic is functioning normally (as Tsukiko routinely demonstrates) there is no reason for Haley to assume the rift is interfering with V's magic.
A somewhat better point, but again, you want to use "assume" when all she needs to do is "suspect". Moreover, we have no strong reason to assume Haley knew this at that point in time. She would be hiding and waiting to be contacted, which means she is also in a bad situation to witness much in the way of magic.
And Haley knows that magic behaves in strange ways [as far as she, the outsider, knows.] For her to assume that A means B is for her to assume a greater knowledge of magic than any of us are willing to grant her.
In the particular case, a large number of spells are barrier spells. You can't teleport/etc into the area they protect, but you can teleport within them. So neither Haley nor we can say that Tsukiko's teleport means anything about the nature of Cloister.



David, please correct me if i am wrong but i believe to have stumbled upon the point of your argument.
With some possibly trivial corrections, it is about correct.


1. Haley has reason to suspect a spell or spell like effect is to blame for the sky changing colour.
Not really. Haley knows that something big has happened. Whether it is magical or not doesn't really change the analysis. She also knows that she is not being contacted as she should be. It is called jumping to a conclusion when you decide the two are related. It is called logical reasoning when you suspect they are, and try to test that.


3. Haley has the knowledge that a spell that covers an area of land has a maximal reach and that it is possible to exit the area it covers.
It is generally possible. There are a number of imprisoning spells designed to prevent that exit. However Haley would assume that getting out of a spell's area of effect is little different from getting out of a building or a field.



Haley's not "sitting around waiting for the rest of the team. As you pointed out, she's leading the resistance at the moment.
You are overlooking the matter of timing here. She came to the conclusion she was not going to get a message from the party before she started the resistance. In 530, she is busy. But we are talking "490" when there is no resistance to lead.
In effect she would have had the choice "Leave town for a few days to see if that improves communication, and if it doesn't, then start the resistance." vs "start the resistance now.". But she rates the resistance as pretty ineffective, really just something to do instead of just hanging around. By comparison, getting in touch and getting Roy raised is a big deal.



It's a bit much to assume that Haley, who has no actual training in magic at all, would realize that V could contact her without even knowing where she was beforehand.

But that is precisely what she does assume under either theory. She is somewhere in a very big city. V & Durkon have virtually zero hope of finding her by non-magical means. She is assuming the spell will not be bothered by a lack of caster knowledge of where she is.
We have the text case of Nale and Sending scrolls. Nale obviously had no idea where they were, and Haley knew that. But that did not stop the spell from reaching its target. So Haley has full confidence the caster doesn't need any idea where she is.



How can Haley and Belkar assume V hooked up with Elan and Durkon in the fleet? They weren't there for that. Part of their plan should be scouring the city looking for a sign of V, in case he didn't make the boat, too.
But how can they find her? He could be anywhere, or could be just a random body. Assuming she is still alive, he will be much more likely to find them than they are to find V.

[xyzchyx]

And neither of these are resources available to characters (Nonplayer or otherwise)Neither is the monster manual to which Celia referred. What's your point, exactly?

We have the text case of Nale and Sending scrolls. Nale obviously had no idea where they were, and Haley knew that. But that did not stop the spell from reaching its target. So Haley has full confidence the caster doesn't need any idea where she is.Possibly, but that doesn't dismiss her reasoning. It is generally more prudent to stay put when one has become separated from their group than it is to venture off on one's own without adequate resources for finding their companions.

At least Durkon and V can correctly conclude that Haley is somewhere in Azure City... which is a lot more than Haley figures she could find out about the rest of the gang.

[Kish]

Sure there is... Human NPC's have stat blocks, as do any pregenned PC's.
Which don't specify either way about lightning bolts from fingers (do they mention the bonus feat and skill points humans get?).

[Shott]

Quality as always.

[FujinAkari]

Neither is the monster manual to which Celia referred. What's your point, exactly?

The Monsterous Manual IS a resource that players can utilize... why else would Celia explicitly talk about it? :smallconfused:

[Morgan Wick]

Premise 1: Should Haley have tried to leave the city to re-establish contact on her own?

The first thing that needs to be considered is Haley's survivability. Haley is a Rogue, and has spent most of her life within cities. Thus, it stands to reason that she likely has very few (if any) ranks in Survival, and would have a much harder time "roughing it" in the wilderness. At her level, it is doubtful that anything in Azure City could successfully spot her, while she is infinately more likely to run into enemies with scent or some similar ability if she leaves the relative "safety" of the city walls. Thus, Haley is considerably more equipped to survive within Azure City than to make a lengthy trek through hostile lands.

There is the additional problem of where she would go, the only known nearby city is Cliffport, and that is over a thousand miles away! There is likely a closer friendly city, but how far away it actually is is anyone's guess. It is very likely that Haley literally has no where else to go without -seriously- planning an overland journey, and you don't plan leave on a month-long (at least!) journey because you haven't been contacted for a few days.

Wow. Remember my three-option argument with the #529 thread? You not only just destroyed it but turned its own logic on its head. Congratulations. (David put some doubt back into my mind, though. But on the second part of Friendly Nut's question, I ask: where could she go? It's dangerous for her to go out into a place she does not know at all.)


Additionally, we must consider that Haley seems to be the tactician for OOTS (she is the one who attempts to plan the ambush before Miko challenges the Ogres, and she is also the one who sees through Xykon's "shell game.") as such, she would be very keenly aware of how vital having a scout inside Azure City will be to Hinjo if and when he returns, and so she will be more reluctant to leave as a result.

She has Belkar, and it's a lot safer to have Belkar inside Azure City (where the MoJ keeps him from killing anyone) than outside (where he's not "leading" the Resistance). Wait, I think I phrased that wrong... never mind.


Premise 2: Should Haley be able to conclude that her location is responcible for V's inability to make contact?

It must be remembered that Haley is not a caster, and very likely has no ranks in Knowledge: Arcane. Thus, what she is aware of must be at the very basic level, or based in personal experience.

Remember that Haley is friends with V according to Origin of PCs so that "personal experience" could be a lot bigger than you might think.


What is less certain (indeed, I consider unlikely) is that Haley would connect a spell used to learn information about a target, and a spell learned to speak to a person over long distances. While both are Divination spells, they don't immediately seem related to the untrained.

I was going to make a comment on Scry here, but that would be falling into David's fallacy...


2) Haley knows what the rift is. She was told all about the different gates during the trial, and can see that the rift is eminating from approximately where the throne room used to be. Since all the other magic is functioning normally (as Tsukiko routinely demonstrates) there is no reason for Haley to assume the rift is interfering with V's magic.

Except that we don't know what the rift is, at least not for certain. I wouldn't put it past Rich to swerve us by telling us the rift has nothing to do with the Snarl.

I must say, the level of discourse in this argument seems to have risen considerably today!


The layout of the planes in the D&D cosmology is actually quite specific. Claiming that some other plane could legitimately be seen as the center is approximately the same as saying that the center of a pizza is actually some piece of pepperoni out near the edge.

In real life, from the frame of reference of any galaxy, all other galaxies seem to be moving away from you, and the rate at which they move away is directly proportional to their distance. From any given point of view, wherever you are is literally the center of the universe, whether you're here in the Milky Way Galaxy or in some galaxy gazillions of light-years away.

To use your pizza metaphor, imagine a pizza that doubles in size in the oven. (This is just a thought experiment.) Suppose that pieces of pepperoni are placed in a grid pattern, each one inch apart, on the pizza. If the pizza doubles in size but the pepperoni does not, then if you take any given slice of pepperoni, a piece of pepperoni that was one inch away is now two inches, one that was two inches away is now four inches, and so on - regardless of those pieces' spatial relationship to the "center". If you're living on one of these slices of pepperoni, your visible universe has to make it to the edge of the pizza to have any clue where the "real" center is.

I don't know how applicable that is to D&D, just showing that it's not as far-fetched as you might think.


I think her explanation of having no means to contact or find the others herself makes for reasonable logic. When one is trapped away from friends and family, with no means to reach them, the wisest course of action is typically to stay where you were so that they have the best chance of finding you. It's a bit much to assume that Haley, who has no actual training in magic at all, would realize that V could contact her without even knowing where she was beforehand.

If that's the case, then under the second part of FujinAkari's post above, she should leave.

That said, I do not consider it unreasonable to assume her to be aware that you can ward against certain spells. As a rogue, she had doubtlessly at least made contact with some other rogue who has used an auger to learn specific information about a victim/location, and thus would be aware that said spells could fail.

What is less certain (indeed, I consider unlikely) is that Haley would connect a spell used to learn information about a target, and a spell learned to speak to a person over long distances. While both are Divination spells, they don't immediately seem related to the untrained.
On the other hand, "a spell used to learn information about a target" is EXACTLY what, according to your argument, V would need (from Haley's point of view) to "know where she was beforehand".


It's also worth noting that the rest of her party are with Hinjo, and she'll expect them to be coming back to try to retake the city, which makes her presence, intelligence-gathering, and force-gathering operations quite significant.

Why has neither David nor Fujin even considered this, especially the bold???


How can Haley and Belkar assume V hooked up with Elan and Durkon in the fleet? They weren't there for that. Part of their plan should be scouring the city looking for a sign of V, in case he didn't make the boat, too.

Haley has reason to believe that, at the very least, V is NOT in Azure City (or if he/she is, he/she's dead) or even inside anything that would block scrys (ie Cloister) that includes Azure City. If s/he were, s/he would have almost certainly found Haley (even if only by scrying to find the rest of the group - as David indirectly points out, V can find them a lot easier than they can find him/her!) and would be with them.

That said, you do have a point that, from Haley's point of view, V could be outside the walls/Cloister but not with Durkon/Elan. In #484, Haley notes that "Durkon knows the plan" but assures Belkar that he or V will contact them. But if V never hooks up with Durkon, V never learns the plan. S/he would probably still scry to find the rest of the group, but wouldn't find Haley and would find Durkon/Elan, but wouldn't be able to hook up with them because s/he'd need to find another coastal city. The only nearby one s/he is likely to know of is... Azure City. Still, V's concern, on re-entry, is finding a boat, and we don't know if V would think to check for Haley again. But if s/he re-scried for Durkon/Elan without luck (and s/he isn't likely to find a boat), s/he might re-scry for Haley. (We know s/he indeed would re-scry for Haley, since s/he is clearly aware that magic can block scries, but this is Haley's point of view. The fact that this requires a lot of thinking through it on her part is actually a bigger point against it than all this analysis. Just re-read it and you'll see.) This then likely falls into one of the all-or-nothing approaches.


why would she leave?

She's a hero.

There's evil to fight.

Too bad she's in no position to fight it effectively. And if she were, Eugene's question in #525 has merit: "She's just frittering away a perfect opportunity! Xykon is right there, she should be trying to kill him!"


Having Hinjo, Durkon, Vaarsuvius and even Elan along to battle Xykon, and more importantly the hobgoblins, would probably reform the three rebel groups into one stronger one, and not at odds with each other.
Not when two of the three hate the OOTS and one of the three hates Hinjo. That said, if Hinjo becomes aware of the existence of the resistances, I'm sure he'd find some way to get them united and cooperating with himself.


So, in a desperate situation like this, I on my part might have come up with the desperate solution of cutting off Roys head or so and only taking that with me. On Belkar - in 524 she didn't seem too opposite to the risk of... losing him if the possible gain is good enough, so I can only speculate how much she would have let him hinder her.

I don't think she would see the possible gain as big enough to risk triggering the MoJ, considering there's a lot of unknown, and especially if they take David's suggestion of camping just outside the Cloister. For everything else that gets on her nerves about him, Haley DOES (now) owe her life to Belkar (even if only his stupidity), knows Belkar is more useful if he can kill living things, knows Roy was loyal to Belkar despite his flaws and even V saved his life once, and knows that Belkar is probably screwed if he kills her in the middle of nowhere while still having to carry a body.


And now for something completely different.
What if Roy can use his new Ghost powers to invade people's dreams? If he can, then he can get a message across. Maybe screw something with the dream too.:smallbiggrin:

That's a modification of an idea that has come up before. I've started wondering if Roy will eventually contact Haley without Celia's help, but Celia still ends up playing a role in the Resistance afterward. Perhaps Haley leaves the Resistance (and Belkar) in her care while she takes off...? But Roy's false-start "But they CAN'T find you!" makes it incredibly unlikely that Roy will contact Haley at all. The only way I see him doing so is to reveal that David was right and Haley DID consider the possibility, but Fujin was right and Haley still didn't leave for whatever reason.

And xyzchyx, Doug Lampert, the only thing worse than one heated, contentious argument that threatens to spill into flaming is two in one thread!

And I'm going to post this and come back with another post taking on David Argall because this post is long enough already.

[Morgan Wick]

All sorts of strips and stories have realized this is wrong and have declared some or all of the past strips to have been dreams, illusions, or other errors. So no, the idea that all strips are canon is simply wrong.

OOTS is not one of them, nor is it likely to be one of them unless Rich gives up the strip for some reason. He seems to have a tightly-run ship.


However, the writer is only the final visible arbiter [and sometimes not even that. Many a writer has to contend with an editor or such who tells him "Make these changes, or we will make them for you."]

Again, Rich is not one of them, though that is just semantics.


The strip is posted here for the purpose of being read. If we were to walk away, the strip would be a failure, and would likely vanish rather quickly. What we think rules the writer, at least any who want their words read.

There are enough people here who aren't as bothered as you are by this that I don't think Rich will miss you.


There really isn't a difference between [a plothole and a plot point you disagree with].

So what are you saying? All plotholes are in the eye of the beholder? Aren't you proving Fujin's point by basically saying that, when you say something is a plothole, it's only your opinion? Do you really disagree on this point?


Haley spends nearly all the comic until the party reaches Azure City in the wilderness. Origens also suggests at least one additional long period out of the city. D&D can be rather poor in modeling such experience, but the idea that Haley is helpless in the wilds won't wash.

I'll give you that.


Now here we seem to have a major misunderstanding. The idea is not that Haley leaves the city and effectively never comes back. Rather, she leaves the city for a long weekend camp-out.
Nothing has happened for a week now. So she hikes a day or so away from the city, stays there a few days, and by then she either has established communication [which seems to be the case] or still is not getting anything, in which case, she would probably return to the city and make alternate plans.

First, if the rift is causing the discoloration - and Fujin has a fairly good case that it is - Haley has no way of knowing when she's far enough away to be contacted. Second, even if Haley is contacted, as others in this thread have pointed out, she probably has to return to Azure City anyway, though that's a fairly minor point.


Again, this is an objection to her leaving for a very long period. But a scout who is not in contact is worthless, and so Haley needs to get in contact.

A scout who isn't doing any scouting is also worthless (considering things can change), and a scout who, if she stops scouting, could cause a good part of the actual fighting help she can provide to fall apart is probably not a scout most people would decide was worth it. And if Hinjo and Co. have to get to Azure City anyway, she can be in contact without leaving.


Here we have an overstating. Haley does not need to conclude. She only needs to suspect. If she is wrong, no biggie and she goes on to other things. But if she is right, she has achieved much. Under such conditions, you do things you are even pretty sure won't work.

Remember when I said on my last post that the level of discourse had been raised? That doesn't apply to this post. In fact, you're going back over some of the same arguments you used in the #529 thread.

In that thread, I would have and did agree with you on this point. But I've since been convinced that departure is too risky - for the Resistance and maybe for Haley herself - and only hastens something that Haley has to figure is going to happen at some point anyway. That means that, yes, certainty IS more important than possibility, and Haley might not even leave then. It's only urgent if the rift has grown big enough that the release of the Snarl is imminent or if the time for Roy to be Resurrected is running out. In which case you can expect V/Durkon/Elan to decide they have no choice anyway.

(I made exactly the opposite case in the #525 thread when I depicted a hypothetical Roy-Haley conversation. I think I need to walk away from this discussion, it's only confusing me.)


You are reasoning the opposite of the untrained here. The first thing the untrained would learn on this subject would be that X stops magic. Only later would our novice learn that X stops magic A, but not magic B. Moreover, we have Haley in contact with anti-magic cells, which stop all magic. So she has the information that something could be blocking the magic communication.
And of course, once again, we are talking about testing a theory here. She does not need an understanding of the principles involved. She need merely know that there can be such effects, and that she knows. Sara's school has known wards for one example.

Well, either reasoning is possible. The anti-magic point does have merit, though.


But in 484, Cloister did have an immediate, massive, and apparently quite visible reaction. Since we are talking of late at night [not to mention our artist may not have wanted to show us quite yet what the changes were, and may not have even decided on them], we are making a major assumption in thinking the sky didn't turn purple rapidly.

Other than the statement of artistic licence, I pretty much already said this.


This is changing the possible to the very likely.

I think Fujin is assuming every possible date to be equally likely.


The very statement "We don't know when..." shows that. And while it is a slender support, Haley's pointing out of the big hole in the sky tends to suggest the size is stable. [She doesn't say it is growing, and that is a natural remark about something she deems highly dangerous. Her remark fits much better if it has been the same size for a long time, but she has no idea for just how much longer.]

The rift was so small originally that the hole wouldn't even be visible in the sky. Remember, it could be held together by the tiny sapphire at the top of the chair.


Not really. Haley knows that something big has happened. Whether it is magical or not doesn't really change the analysis. She also knows that she is not being contacted as she should be. It is called jumping to a conclusion when you decide the two are related. It is called logical reasoning when you suspect they are, and try to test that.
Since Xiander used the word "suspect" are you really correcting him, or Vaarsuvius-izing what he says?


But she rates the resistance as pretty ineffective, really just something to do instead of just hanging around. By comparison, getting in touch and getting Roy raised is a big deal.

When I was writing the hypothetical Roy-Haley conversation in the #525 thread, I realized I couldn't be quite so sure it really was that big a deal. Still, I'll give you this. But again, hastening the process doesn't change HOW she gets in touch (I don't know if V/Durkon would cast a spell that would allow Haley to talk back, meaning the only way they would "get in touch" outside the city would basically be V lecturing Haley) and is there a real rush to get Roy rezzed until the Resurrection timer runs down? (You would have a stronger argument when the time for Raise Dead is running down.)


We have the text case of Nale and Sending scrolls. Nale obviously had no idea where they were, and Haley knew that. But that did not stop the spell from reaching its target. So Haley has full confidence the caster doesn't need any idea where she is.

First, Nale could have scried first (which is why I didn't mention it in my post), and second, Haley didn't experience that first-hand.

I apologize if I contradict myself from one post to the next. Part of that is me trying to play devil's advocate, and part of it is me waffling back and forth between arguments as I hear both sides.


The Monsterous Manual IS a resource that players can utilize... why else would Celia explicitly talk about it? :smallconfused:

You said "characters" in your original post. I don't know if xyzchyx is a D&D player, and the distinction between characters and players is a lot wider in OOTS than in D&D.

[Illeveun]

I don't know if any has already asked this, but what is the reference with the "Regarding With....."? There is an author who starts every chapter with "Regarding With..." but I can't quite remember his name or his books.

[FujinAkari]

All sorts of strips and stories have realized this is wrong and have declared some or all of the past strips to have been dreams, illusions, or other errors. So no, the idea that all strips are canon is simply wrong.

True, but the choice to write something off as a dream is the author's, not the viewers. Your only real choice is to either accept the comic, or stop reading the comic. You cannot set up some weird "Alternate OOTSverse" where only some events actually happened in order to pick and choose the strips that fit your argument and disclude the rest...


Of course I can. Now whether anybody will listen is another story, but I can certainly make that statement.

Semantics. But fine, if you want to post about your strange alternate OOTS, and please post on that OOTS' message board. At the risk of sounding elitist, this message board is for those discussing this comic, so I will always be operating under the assumption that we are discussing the entire comic.


However, the writer is only the final visible arbiter [and sometimes not even that. Many a writer has to contend with an editor or such who tells him "Make these changes, or we will make them for you."]

This is completely irrelevant to your argument. You aren't even a moderator, much less a Paizo executive with content control.


The strip is posted here for the purpose of being read. If we were to walk away, the strip would be a failure, and would likely vanish rather quickly. What we think rules the writer, at least any who want their words read.

You seem to like this argument... too bad Rich himself explicitly shoots it down. Please read the F.A.Q. where Rich addresses his stance on fan-controlled content.


This merely pushes the problem back a step. She is still acting in a very strange way.

How is not leaving the city when she has no inkling that leaving the city will be in any way beneficial the least bit strange? I would consider it strange if she left the city without anything approaching a good reason.


There really isn't a difference between the two.

Of course there is. A plot hole is an aspect of the plot which is never addressed, such as how Nale came to be hired by Xykon to stop his Brother, when theoretically neither of them were aware that Elan was coming to the Dungeon of Durokan.

A plot point that you disagree with has an official explanation, you simply don't like it.


Haley spends nearly all the comic until the party reaches Azure City in the wilderness. Origens also suggests at least one additional long period out of the city. D&D can be rather poor in modeling such experience, but the idea that Haley is helpless in the wilds won't wash.

Do we EVER see them make camp? I keep seeing them going to inns, but I don't ever recall a campfire or anything. It seems that Haley's idea of "roughing it" is to eat rations and walk, there isn't any evidence that she knows the first thing about actual survival.


Nothing has happened for a week now. So she hikes a day or so away from the city, stays there a few days, and by then she either has established communication [which seems to be the case] or still is not getting anything, in which case, she would probably return to the city and make alternate plans.

How does she know when to stop? Cloister has no obvious barrier. It could extend for a mile outside the city, or two-hundred miles, with NO WAY to verify that you're beyond its reach. Even if Haley did somehow conclude that she needed to leave the area, she'd have no way of knowing how far she had to go.


Here we have an overstating. Haley does not need to conclude. She only needs to suspect. If she is wrong, no biggie and she goes on to other things. But if she is right, she has achieved much. Under such conditions, you do things you are even pretty sure won't work.

You have said this repeatedly, and I don't know how I can respond to it any more plainly. A suspicion is not enough to base an argument on. Suspicions, by their very nature, are an inkling that comes to a character that knows relevant information. While we can demonstrate that Haley might be exposed to the relevant information, you cannot say that she -must- form an abstract suspicion based on that knowledge.

There is a CHANCE she will consider the relationship between the separate pieces of information, and also a CHANCE that she won't. You seem to utterly and completely ignore the possibility that Haley -won't- suspect that she needs to leave the city, and that is why your argument is as badly debunked as it is.


But in 484, Cloister did have an immediate, massive, and apparently quite visible reaction. Since we are talking of late at night [not to mention our artist may not have wanted to show us quite yet what the changes were, and may not have even decided on them], we are making a major assumption in thinking the sky didn't turn purple rapidly.

Not at all. Magic tends to have an immediate effect, and we know that the rift -wasn't even visible- at the time Cloister was cast, which was some period after the throne was destroyed (possibly an hour or so, but an hour is a LONG time where instantaneous effects are concerned)

Since the rift's appearance -didn't- happen as soon as the sapphire was destroyed, it is illogical to assume that it would simply appear X hours later, and much more reasonable to think that there was some period of growth, be it days or weeks, before it "stabilized" at its current size.

[FujinAkari]

It's also worth noting that the rest of her party are with Hinjo, and she'll expect them to be coming back to try to retake the city, which makes her presence, intelligence-gathering, and force-gathering operations quite significant.Why has neither David nor Fujin even considered this, especially the bold???


Additionally, we must consider that Haley seems to be the tactician for OOTS (she is the one who attempts to plan the ambush before Miko challenges the Ogres, and she is also the one who sees through Xykon's "shell game.") as such, she would be very keenly aware of how vital having a scout inside Azure City will be to Hinjo if and when he returns, and so she will be more reluctant to leave as a result.

^_^ Gimme my credit! Hehe

*is appearing petty again?*

[Sakkaku Kaikou]

Okay, I did a search and looked a little through the thread, but I couldn't find anything, so don't sue me if someone actually did already point this out, but euphamism (Last Panel of row 6, or row 2 of the second page) is not spelled with an a. It's actually euphemism. Just had to point it out because it was starting to irk me. ^^;;

[xyzchyx]

The Monsterous Manual IS a resource that players can utilize... why else would Celia explicitly talk about it? :smallconfused:Because she's a metagamer... as are virtually all the characters in the entire comic. But that aside, the question at hand was not the players, it was the _characters_, who would not even know about the existence of a monster manual without metagaming being involved. Anyways, if you want to include players in that mix, then they most certainly *DO* have access to stat blocks for things like pregenned PC's, and in some cases even companion NPC's that are handed over to players to run for a limited time. My point is, however, that when one is going plane hopping, they ought to do some sort of research about the inhabitants so that know what to expect. The players in the game that I DM made their first plane hop without really knowing what to expect, and they got their asses whooped so bad they very nearly died. They almost certainly would have too if they had not taken advantage of a serendipitous opportunity for a strategic retreat. Suffice to say that the next time they plane-shifted, they did their research, and all went much more smoothly. Travelling through the planes is dangerous, and anyone with the ability to do so is certainly going to know it or else they aren't likely to live long.

But personally, I don't even allow players access to the monster manual during gaming... if they need information that happens to be from it, they ask me directly and I tell them what they need to know, as long as it's applicable that they should know that information, or if the character is paying a knowledgeable scholar in the subject for the information. In fact, I don't even usually tell my players the names of monsters they are fighting... I just show them a picture that I either got off the net or else scanned from the MM.

[FujinAkari]

Because she's a metagamer... as are virtually all the characters in the entire comic. But that aside, the question at hand was not the players, it was the _characters_, who would not even know about the existence of a monster manual without metagaming being involved.

You seem to be confusing D&D with OOTS. OOTS is a parody of D&D, but it does use some different rules, one of them that Characters have access to supplemental materials such as the Monsterous Manual, but NOT specific information such as Xykon's prepared spells or the Dungeon of Durokan's layout.

In essence, they know what a base lich can do, but know nothing beyond that bout Xykon (for example) except for first-hand experience.

I do not quibble about -normal- D&D, but calling Celia lazy because she is unaware of information that isn't recorded in the resources she apparently consulted isn't exactly fair, thus the joke.

[metal_man465]

to all those arguing about why haley has not left the city...

she and belkar went into the caves to stay hidden from the army in the city, they were there hiding and waiting for a reply for a little while(it was probably safer to stay in the caves at the time then to try to escape the city) and while in there they met the others who went there for roughly the same reason, haley and the other decided at some point that they should for a resistance to save the ones who didn't get into the cave. since then she has been to busy leading the resistance(and getting air fresheners) to leave the city. even for a day or two. now this is just my thoughts on why she didnt leave but i think it makes a lot of sense(and yes there is a bit of assumptions in there but hey this entier argument is pretty much based on assumptions)

and great comic, i loved it!

[David Argall]

OOTS is not one of them
Not yet, and hopefully not at all. These things tend to happen when the writer realizes he has offended against his masters -the readers- and he is trying to make it up with them. Since we don't want him offending in the first place, we are hoping he never has to apologize to us.


There are enough people here who aren't as bothered as you are by this that I don't think Rich will miss you.
Unimportant. It is the readers, not a reader, that we are considering here.


So what are you saying? All plotholes are in the eye of the beholder? Aren't you proving Fujin's point by basically saying that, when you say something is a plothole, it's only your opinion? Do you really disagree on this point?
The two can be distinguished if you really want to, but not on the basis that one is merely opinion. In both you are saying that since A, B, & C, then D should not have happened. Both are mixtures of fact and opinion.


First, if the rift is causing the discoloration - and Fujin has a fairly good case that it is - Haley has no way of knowing when she's far enough away to be contacted.
All she needs to do is see the sun. A merely normal sky and she is there.


Second, even if Haley is contacted, as others in this thread have pointed out, she probably has to return to Azure City anyway, though that's a fairly minor point.
Quite possibly, but she returns to a much better situation. She is in contact with the others and has presumably made plans of how to get together again.


A scout who isn't doing any scouting is also worthless
So she has one way she will be worthless, vs one way she might be worthless. Seems like trying for contact is the better bet.


And if Hinjo and Co. have to get to Azure City anyway, she can be in contact without leaving.
She then would get in contact with Hinjo only after her information is largely useless. Hinjo would have already launched his attack and Haley can't tell him where to attack, nor how to link up with the resistance, nor...
She needs to link up with Hinjo long before she can if she stays in the city.


departure is too risky - for the Resistance
As has been pointed out several times by several people. There is no resistance at the point in time we are interested in. Haley only started the resistance AFTER she had decided not to leave the city.
And of course we now have the opinion of Roy that it is not too risky even now. His knowledge is quite possibly defective [fatally so?], but he is in a better position to judge the risks than we are.


only hastens something that Haley has to figure is going to happen at some point anyway.
This is a little more sophisticated form of circular reasoning. We are discussing what Haley should have been thinking. What she was is thus not evidence of what she should have been.


It's only urgent if the rift has grown big enough that the release of the Snarl is imminent or if the time for Roy to be Resurrected is running out.
But at the point we are discussing the time for Raise Dead was running out.
And the argument that it can wait until minana has never appealed to Haley. She is out there acting.



I think Fujin is assuming every possible date to be equally likely.
Given that he is trying to condemn me for making assumptions, that is not a wise policy. And the evidence before us is that a lot of dates are much less likely.



The rift was so small originally that the hole wouldn't even be visible in the sky. Remember, it could be held together by the tiny sapphire at the top of the chair.
Irrelevant to the discussion. We are concerned with what has happended in the last few months.



Since Xiander used the word "suspect" are you really correcting him, or Vaarsuvius-izing what he says?
Yes


I don't know if V/Durkon would cast a spell that would allow Haley to talk back,
Sending, a spell used in text, allows the target to talk back. Other spells do too. And we start in 484 with her assuming there will be no communication problems of this sort.


is there a real rush to get Roy rezzed until the Resurrection timer runs down?
Roy is the leader of the gang, a very powerful fighter, etc. You don't want to bench him for longer than you have to.



Nale could have scried first
Nale set a deadline the party "couldn't" meet. The demands of plot of course meant they had a way, but if Nale had realized they were that far away, he would have had to revise his plan.

And scrying is the same thing. How does it locate somebody? We get the same conclusion, that Haley would assume the spells would find her at most any random spot.



Haley didn't experience that first-hand.
Close enough. She was in the middle of nowhere and a spell found them where nobody should have known where they are. And she was able to listen to those who had experienced it.



It is generally more prudent to stay put when one has become separated from their group than it is to venture off on one's own without adequate resources for finding their companions.
The idea here is not to find her companions, but to let them find her. In effect, she would have been putting herself on a mountain top instead of in a cave.



the choice to write something off as a dream is the author's, not the viewers. Your only real choice is to either accept the comic, or stop reading the comic.
That is a very powerful choice, as a great many authors have found out. And many an author has found it is not really his choice. See the death of Sherlock Holmes for one example.



This is completely irrelevant to your argument. You aren't even a moderator, much less a Paizo executive with content control.
My argument here does not even depend on whether I even exist.

Quote:
The strip is posted here for the purpose of being read. If we were to walk away, the strip would be a failure, and would likely vanish rather quickly. What we think rules the writer, at least any who want their words read.


You seem to like this argument... too bad Rich himself explicitly shoots it down. Please read the F.A.Q. where Rich addresses his stance on fan-controlled content.
What I find is that he is not going to accept direct fan imput, tho he appears to have come quite close to that several times.
However, on the point of issue, he at least indirectly acknowledges that he is fan driven, in that if these books don't sell, he would have to stop the strip or at least post less frequently.



How is not leaving the city when she has no inkling that leaving the city will be in any way beneficial the least bit strange?
She of course does have that inkling, or rather should have had.


A plot hole is an aspect of the plot which is never addressed, such as how Nale came to be hired by Xykon to stop his Brother, when theoretically neither of them were aware that Elan was coming to the Dungeon of Durokan.
[Of course, Nale wasn't hired to stop his brother. Elan was a rather inconsequencial member of the party.] But it is frequently only opinion that there is a plothole at all.


A plot point that you disagree with has an official explanation, you simply don't like it.
Which would mean it is a plothole with some paper over it.

Quote:
Haley spends nearly all the comic until the party reaches Azure City in the wilderness. Origens also suggests at least one additional long period out of the city. D&D can be rather poor in modeling such experience, but the idea that Haley is helpless in the wilds won't wash.


Do we EVER see them make camp?
Well, we have 146, 162, 198, Given her mood and past behavior, it would seem they camped the entire way from 250 to the Azure city jail, and 334.. I suppose you can quibble about some of these, but making camp largely falls under the "not worth the space" rule.


How does she know when to stop?
She has this nasty looking sky over AC. Just keep hiking until she has a normal sky and she is good to go.


There is a CHANCE she will consider the relationship between the separate pieces of information, and also a CHANCE that she won't. You seem to utterly and completely ignore the possibility that Haley -won't- suspect that she needs to leave the city, and that is why your argument is as badly debunked as it is.
And just how big is that chance she won't suspect she needs to leave the city? She is ranked as a distinctly clever member of the party and the facts are quite obvious.
The talk of a chance makes some sense when we are talking of Elan, not when we are talking of Haley. Some chances are just too small.


Not at all. Magic tends to have an immediate effect, and
Stop right there. Read what you wrote "tends". You are trying to shove in one of those assumptions you are always denouncing. By your own words, the effect might be immediate, it might not.


we know that the rift -wasn't even visible- at the time Cloister was cast, which was some period after the throne was destroyed (possibly an hour or so, but an hour is a LONG time where instantaneous effects are concerned)

Since the rift's appearance -didn't- happen as soon as the sapphire was destroyed, it is illogical to assume that it would simply appear X hours later, and much more reasonable to think that there was some period of growth, be it days or weeks, before it "stabilized" at its current size.
A reasonable explanation might be that the Rift was growing from the moment the castle was destroyed, and was only stopped by the Cloister spell. This has the added benefit of explaining why Xykon hasn't left the city months ago.

[factotum]

Quote:
Haley spends nearly all the comic until the party reaches Azure City in the wilderness. Origens also suggests at least one additional long period out of the city. D&D can be rather poor in modeling such experience, but the idea that Haley is helpless in the wilds won't wash.

Well, we have 146, 162, 198, Given her mood and past behavior, it would seem they camped the entire way from 250 to the Azure city jail, and 334.. I suppose you can quibble about some of these, but making camp largely falls under the "not worth the space" rule.


The thing is, in both the Origins reference you're talking about, and all the occasions we've seen Haley in the wilderness in the online strip, she's been a member of a group. In fact, for most of the journey to Azure City she was in chains, tied up and blindfolded...see strip 251! There is no evidence whatsoever that she is capable of surviving ALONE in the wilderness, which is the point FujinAkari is making. Given the Rogue skill set in D&D 3.5 it would actually be very unlikely that she was optimised for solo survival in that situation. Belkar might be optimised that way (assuming he does ANYTHING in an optimal way), but if she were to take him along they'd have to bring Roy's corpse as well, and getting out of the city undetected would be a bit of a problem under those circumstances.

In short, your argument that Haley could easily go out into the wilderness and wait for V to contact her fails, sorry.

[Haruspex]

Belkar and his cat 'the Sruffinator(sp?)'. What a strange sight to see. Maybe he'll make him his animal companion. Though the fact that the cat seems to understand him and obey his commands could mean that he is already. But that could just be Handle Animal. Anyway, it looks like the start of a beautiful friendship.

Oh yeah, poor Celia and Roy. Tragic love, eh?

[Niknokitueu]

...the Rogue skill set in D&D 3.5 it would actually be very unlikely that she was optimised for solo survival in that situation...
Just thought it worth mentioning: Rich has seemingly set up each character to be very un-optimised. What could be more useless than an urban theif class with wilderness survival ranks?

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. To both sides of this current spat, please start a new thread. This thread is for discussing oots #530, not an in-depth analysis of Haley and her pre-supposed thought processes. I take the easy view: This is a comic, and as such things happen for the sake of the plot. I just read it and enjoy :smallsmile: .

[CowPuncher]

I agree with the suggestion to move this side-discussion to another thread, but since the principles haven't started one yet, I'll post here:

I accept Haley's decision not to leave the city, and would have accepted the opposite as well. David's points make sense, but I feel that they reduce a very complicated, personal decision for Haley into an overly-simplistic logical chain. Haley's smart, but there are lots of factors to consider, enough to make either course of action plausible. For example:

1. Haley has no idea what's going on with V and Durkon; she may suspect, but she doesn't know. They haven't contacted her, which could mean that she's in a special area of magical interference, but it could also mean that she herself has been the target of a divination-blocking effect... or that V and Durkon are dead, incapacitated, level drained sufficiently to prevent powerful Haley-finding magic, geased or otherwise prevented from looking for her... or that direct divination directed at Haley would alert Xykon to her presence... the list goes on and on. That brings us to point 2:

2. Haley knows little about the specifics of magic, which means that she doesn't know what actions will make it easier for the group to contact her, nor which ones will make it more difficult. D&D spells have esoteric and unique restrictions that Haley isn't familiar with: it could be that the only spell with long enough range to reach her requires the caster to know her location, or that it is a roving sensor spell as opposed to a targeted spell (in fact, it's very possible that V sent an animal in search of Haley, which would make spending a weekend outside of Azure City a really bad idea). In the case of an area effect or roving sensor divination spell, Haley would be well served to keep to a small area to avoid missing it.

3. Ceterus parabus, it's better to stay put. If Durkon and V are out of commission, out of range or unable to access magic that can find Haley, they might still have made a mundane attempt to contact her, in which case she can make that attempt a lot easier by sticking around. Furthermore, while it would be possible for Haley to "experiment" with better ways to establish contact with the party, there are a lot of things for her to try, almost all of which entail missing out on a potential contact effort. The sensible thing to do in light of that fact is to pick a course of action and stick to it, rather than risk cycling through her options while V is doing the same (they might miss each other, just like two people wandering around an area looking for each other).

4. Don't forget the emotional side. Haley likes to stay in her comfort zone; witness her willingness to put her life on the line daily as an adventurer, compared to her reticence to express her feelings for Elan. What Haley is doing now, regardless of how smart it is, is right up her alley and makes her feel useful. Aimless guesswork that involves dragging a corpse and a psycho in and out of town... not so much.

I just don't think you can look at Haley's decision here and claim that it's completely unreasonable or out of character. Real people do surprising things all of the time; people are complicated, especially when they're thrust into complicated situations.

[David Argall]

The thing is, in both the Origins reference you're talking about, and all the occasions we've seen Haley in the wilderness in the online strip, she's been a member of a group.
She has been a member of a small group, six people for the most part. At that size, there is very little specialization. One person, six people, everybody does all the jobs. You rotate cooking, cleanup, etc unless somebody is really good at something. Everybody knows every job.
In particular, Haley would know every job since she is assistant leader. With six people, that can't be a slacking off position. She did the work too.
There really isn't that much difference between solitary survival and the small group survival.


There is no evidence whatsoever
This is simply flat out wrong. You may wish to claim there is not sufficient evidence, which at least can be argued, but the evidence presented already obviously exceeds "no evidence whatsoever".
Then there is the point that lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. We lack evidence of just about everything in the comic. We must assume a very great deal. Does the party only need toilets when they are in dungeons? Do they only eat when they are in cities?
We are trying to establish facts here. Please drop the rhetorical fallacies.


that she is capable of surviving ALONE in the wilderness,
She's the bloody party scout. She spends more time alone than any of them.
And we are not talking about a trek cross country. This is just barely more than a long weekend campout. She walks maybe a day or two out of town, Sits around for a day or two, and then likely comes back to town. We are talking about something in the general competence of an urban street bum.


if she were to take him along they'd have to bring Roy's corpse as well, and getting out of the city undetected would be a bit of a problem under those circumstances.
But a quite solvable one from the evidence to date. Haley and Belkar move around the city with Roy's body with pretty much impunity.



please start a new thread. This thread is for discussing oots #530, not an in-depth analysis of Haley and her pre-supposed thought processes.

And that is part of 530.
However, it is easier to simply ignore the posts that bother you than get other posters to change, particularly when the normal result of a request like this is more posting.



1. Haley has no idea what's going on with V and Durkon; she may suspect, but she doesn't know.
Of course. But the point is that she can't do much, if anything, about these alternate ideas. Durkon & V are dead? So nothing is going to work.
But she is in an area where magic can't detect her? That, she can do something about, and quickly and easily.


2. Haley knows little about the specifics of magic,
a-as mentioned before, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. That we do not see her discuss details of spells does not mean she is ignorant of such details.
b-Haley is a 13th+ level PC who has spend a year[s] in the company of a very verbal wizard who likes to lecture. On the face of it, we have to assume an extensive knowledge of magic. She may not know how to cast a spell, but her knowledge of what a spell would do could be very large.
c-We are not requiring her to know much of anything here. She just needs to know that something that should have happened is not happening.


which means that she doesn't know what actions will make it easier for the group to contact her, nor which ones will make it more difficult.
She would have such knowledge, to at least some extent. Some things are simply common knowledge and would be known to just about every commoner one might meet.


it could be that the only spell with long enough range to reach her requires the caster to know her location,
It could be, but it isn't. And the casters can't know her location anyway. The exact size of Azure City is not clear, but 9 square miles is not unreasonable. She could be in any 5x5 cube of that, and indeed is likely under that cube rather than in it. The very fact she expects contact at all says she assumes her precise location is unimportant.


In the case of an area effect or roving sensor divination spell, Haley would be well served to keep to a small area to avoid missing it.
But she can't keep to a small area because the spellcasters don't know where that small area is.

Haley is expecting a "radio message". As far as she knows, there is no need for her to stick to any area.


3. If Durkon and V are out of commission, out of range or unable to access magic that can find Haley, they might still have made a mundane attempt to contact her, in which case she can make that attempt a lot easier by sticking around.
Any such mundane attempt is rather obviously doomed to failure [or guaranteed success due to plot]. As mentioned, we are talking about a large city area, heavily infested by hostiles as well. The idea just is not worth trying until they have some idea where she is.
The idea that the lost person should stay put is based on the chance of getting more lost, or blundering into worse trouble. If you are in a fixed area, you would increase your chances of being found by moving. [In the normal wildlife case, you are not in a fixed area.]



Furthermore, while it would be possible for Haley to "experiment" with better ways to establish contact with the party, there are a lot of things for her to try, almost all of which entail missing out on a potential contact effort.
Name them. And explain why the threat is significent.


(they might miss each other, just like two people wandering around an area looking for each other).
While that can happen, the odds are against it. Two people moving on a random pattern will normally find each other faster than when one stays still. A practical reason for this is that you don't know if the other guy is moving or not. And if he stays still and you do as well, you are guaranteed never to meet.


4. Don't forget the emotional side. Haley likes to stay in her comfort zone; witness her willingness to put her life on the line daily as an adventurer, compared to her reticence to express her feelings for Elan. What Haley is doing now, regardless of how smart it is, is right up her alley and makes her feel useful. Aimless guesswork that involves dragging a corpse and a psycho in and out of town... not so much.
This claim is dubious on Haley's emotional side. [Something that might rescue Roy has got to have high appeal to her] However the main problem is that it underrates her intelligence. She knew what she had to do with Elan. She was just scared to risk it. But in the current case, she doesn't even think of the idea.


We know the failure to leave the city was a blunder on her part. She should have been able to see that it was something worth trying.

[factotum]

She's the bloody party scout. She spends more time alone than any of them.
And we are not talking about a trek cross country. This is just barely more than a long weekend campout. She walks maybe a day or two out of town, Sits around for a day or two, and then likely comes back to town. We are talking about something in the general competence of an urban street bum.


A scout is not the same thing as a tracker...note that Roy hired Belkar mainly because he said he could track, so clearly Haley did not possess that skill at the time. Being alone in a dungeon is clearly different to being alone in the middle of a wilderness...simple common sense tells us this, quite apart from the D&D rules.

As for going a "day or two out of town" requiring so little wilderness competence, I think you're thinking too much of real-life cities where there is no real wilderness nearby. Fact is, we don't know how bad things are close to Azure City, particularly with the infrastructure of the Sapphire Guard (that would have kept things in check) destroyed.

[xyzchyx]

While that can happen, the odds are against it.You've never gotten separated from your party at an international airport, have you? Unless you've already specifically made arrangements about where to meet if you get separated, the best thing to do for the party who feels less able to cope with being separated is to stay put. Clearly, Haley feels that the party's ability to locate her far exceeds her ability to locate them, so it's perfectly sensible from her perspective to remain where she is. If she even _suspected_ that the group had been trying all this time to repeatedly reach her and failing due to her location, I have little doubt that she would have moved away from the city to try to get in touch, but it's clear from her choices that this possibility has not yet occurred to her.

[David Argall]

You've never gotten separated from your party at an international airport, have you? Unless you've already specifically made arrangements about where to meet if you get separated, the best thing to do for the party who feels less able to cope with being separated is to stay put.
This is the short range, the quite short range, choice. After a little time has passed and nobody has found you, you start using active measures, such as notifying authorities who can put out an announcement, or - to copy Haley - move to a place where you are more easily seen.

Haley has been sitting around for a few days to maybe a week at the point we are considering. Her people have not contacted her. She can't contact the authorities - Xykon -, but she can move to a place where she may be easier to "see".


If she even _suspected_ that the group had been trying all this time to repeatedly reach her and failing due to her location, I have little doubt that she would have moved away from the city to try to get in touch, but it's clear from her choices that this possibility has not yet occurred to her.
Which is the question: Why hasn't it occurred to her?

[Qov]

Whether at an international airport or lost in the wilderness, that's the way it's done. You stay with the wreckage unless it becomes dangerous for you to do so. A lot of people have disappeared or died because they went out looking instead of staying at the point where rescuers would know to look for them.

The party know where they last saw Haley. She has some resources there and has figured out how to hide. Haley doesn't know where the party went, or why they haven't contacted her. I really can't see a reason for her to haul her party to the --probably guarded and warded-- perimeter of the city.

[Wonton]

"The OTHER other side."
"...He's gay?"

PRICELESS :smallbiggrin:

[John Campbell]

Staying in Azure City is totally in-character for Haley.

The girl's got abandonment issues, she's got self-esteem issues, and we've seen that, however gung-ho and self-motivating she might be under most circumstances, she'd prefer to spend weeks or months hanging in a limbo of indecision where she can't even speak intelligibly rather than risk rejection.

And she just watched her new boyfriend sail away, along with all her other living friends, leaving her behind in an occupied city with nothing but a corpse and a halfling psychopath for company. Abandoning her, not to put too fine a point on it. And then they didn't call. And they didn't come back for her. And they didn't call some more. And months later, they still haven't come back.

So now, if Haley even subconsciously suspects that it's Azure City that's preventing them from contacting her, do you think she's immediately going to rush out of the city and risk having Elan call and tell her that the reason they haven't come back is because he's dumped her for some high-Cha bimbo (probably a flying one) and doesn't love her anymore, if he ever really did... or do you think she's going to stay right where she is, where she can't be contacted, can't be told, can't be rejected, and tell herself that she's just doing it because Azure City needs her elite Chaotic Good skills?

At least this time she can talk.


And Haley probably doesn't have any ranks in Survival, which is the necessary skill to handle striking out into the wilderness. It's not a class skill for Rogues, and D&D characters are woefully short on skill points. Even Rogues don't get enough to waste very many on skills outside their area of expertise... they get way more than most other classes, but they also have more places that they have to spread them around to in order to be functional in their basic role. And we know that Belkar's Survival sucks, despite it being the primary class skill for Rangers.

[CowPuncher]

Of course. But the point is that she can't do much, if anything, about these alternate ideas. Durkon & V are dead? So nothing is going to work.
But she is in an area where magic can't detect her? That, she can do something about, and quickly and easily.

"Stay where they last saw you" is a perfectly reasonable thing to "do" about spellcasters who are dead, incapacitated, detained on another plane, etc. Those are temporary circumstances that, once overcome, will permit the casters to start looking again, and they'll probably start with Azure City.



b-Haley is a 13th+ level PC who has spend a year[s] in the company of a very verbal wizard who likes to lecture. On the face of it, we have to assume an extensive knowledge of magic. She may not know how to cast a spell, but her knowledge of what a spell would do could be very large.


I don't see any reason for a mid-high level Rogue to know the details of these types of divination spells, and she would need to know details. Consider, for example, that Scrying and Greater Scrying only provide sensory contact, not location, and that they are thus ineffective for finding someone unless that person's surroundings are identifiable. The Vision spell might be able to provide Haley's location, but the answer it gives could be vague, requiring a mundane search to solve the spell's riddle-like clue. If V were close by, she might well use Prying Eyes, but that spell has a max duration of one mile and limited sensors, meaning that their success rate would be much higher in a city (which can be methodically searched for possible hiding places) than in open countryside. Haley has no established reason to know any of this -- granted, she MIGHT, but the burden of proof is on the person who claims that Haley's canonical actions are grossly out of character. What Haley does know is that she doesn't know, which makes experimentation dangerous.


The exact size of Azure City is not clear, but 9 square miles is not unreasonable. She could be in any 5x5 cube of that, and indeed is likely under that cube rather than in it. The very fact she expects contact at all says she assumes her precise location is unimportant.

For what value of "precise"? Outside of the Scrying spells (which V might not know, or which might require focii V can't get, for all Haley knows), most divination spells work a lot better with at least a vague idea of where the subject is. Locate Creature, Commune or a carefully engineered Vision spell would be better able to find Haley if she's in the city when the spell is cast... and two of those spells cost XP, so when the spell is cast is a big consideration, because they're not once-a-day propositions.


Haley is expecting a "radio message". As far as she knows, there is no need for her to stick to any area.

Again, she knows what she doesn't know. It's not at all unreasonable to suspect that scrying/location/message spells might have a range or area limit, and that would make it vital for Haley to stay put.


Any such mundane attempt is rather obviously doomed to failure [or guaranteed success due to plot]. As mentioned, we are talking about a large city area, heavily infested by hostiles as well. The idea just is not worth trying until they have some idea where she is.

I don't agree. I mean, the 3 resistance movements get by somehow, so clearly it's possible to fly under the radar. And Azure City's got, what, 500,000 people? That's an impossible task if you're going door-to-door, but hardly insurmountable for someone working smart (especially with some low-level magic or a connection to the resistance).


Name them. And explain why the threat is significent.

I wrote an answer, but it was unbelievably long and tedious, so I deleted it. Suffice it to say that trying to remain hidden (from Xykon) and simultaneously trying to be found (by the party) presents Haley with lots of options to improve her chances of the latter by risking the success of the former. My main point, though, is that leaving the city would be one of the single most dangerous experiments Haley could try, with no more expected reward than any other. Getting out of (let alone back into) Azure City with no magic would be tough even for Haley, and even assuming that Xykon hasn't set up some infallible alarm system around the perimeter (which is at least as likely a prospect as an anti-divination shield). What's more, failure at this task would threaten not just Haley, but Belkar and Roy as well; either she takes them along, which is begging for Roy's corpse to get captured, or she leaves the corpse along with Belkar, who's bound to get caught without Haley's guidance.


This claim is dubious on Haley's emotional side. [Something that might rescue Roy has got to have high appeal to her] However the main problem is that it underrates her intelligence. She knew what she had to do with Elan. She was just scared to risk it. But in the current case, she doesn't even think of the idea.

It's human nature to overestimate loss and underestimate gain. Even if the potential payoff for Roy is high, the risk of losing his corpse to Xykon would weigh heavily on Haley's mind. As for Haley never thinking to leave the city... I believe she stated the opposite in #530, panel 2. She's thought to leave the city, but feels that it would be a bad idea. If you're referring to the idea that the city is blocking V's divination attempts, we don't know that she hasn't thought of it, only that she hasn't acted on it. It's certainly one of the riskiest theories to test.


We know the failure to leave the city was a blunder on her part. She should have been able to see that it was something worth trying.

Is it even remotely possible that you are wrong about this? Given that we don't know Xykon's power level, nor the security level on the borders of Azure City, nor Haley's intelligence, nor her degree of knowledge about divination magic, nor the exact effects of the Cloister spell?

[FujinAkari]

Well, we have 146, 162, 198, Given her mood and past behavior, it would seem they camped the entire way from 250 to the Azure city jail, and 334.. I suppose you can quibble about some of these, but making camp largely falls under the "not worth the space" rule.

It should be noted that NONE of those comics have anything to do with actually surviving. They sleep and apparently eat rations that they brought with them. There is no evidence that Haley knows the first thing about fending for herself, and if you wait for her to steal enough supplies for a lengthy journey, then you are forcing her to delay to the point where the resistance is beginning.


She has this nasty looking sky over AC. Just keep hiking until she has a normal sky and she is good to go.

Except that the distance from which you can see the rift has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the Radius of Cloister. Nor is it likely that she will abruptly get to "normal sky." It doesn't go from day to night all at once you know.


And just how big is that chance she won't suspect she needs to leave the city? She is ranked as a distinctly clever member of the party and the facts are quite obvious.

They are not even remotely obvious. The "facts" are that V hasn't contacted her. Thats it. Cloister does NOT appear to be related to the distortion in the sky, and there is no evidence that the sky changed color within the first MONTH, not to mention the first four days!


Stop right there. Read what you wrote "tends". You are trying to shove in one of those assumptions you are always denouncing. By your own words, the effect might be immediate, it might not.

I wrote that magic tends to have immediate effect. There are exceptions, such as "Delayed Blast Fireball." Cloister, we see from the comic, is not such a spell and DOES have an immediate effect.


A reasonable explanation might be that the Rift was growing from the moment the castle was destroyed, and was only stopped by the Cloister spell.

This isn't remotely reasonable, since if the rift was growing, it would be visible before cloister was cast, and would cease growing afterward. It has done the exact opposite, being invisible before Cloister was cast, invisible immediately after, and being EXTREMELY visible three months later. You continue to insist that there exists a connection between Cloister and the rift, but the facts simply do not support this conclusion.

[Yendor]

Haley knows what the rift is. She knows the gate containing it was destroyed, and that the Snarl is trying to get out. She has no need to attribute the rift's appearance to any other factor.

Haley says the rift is blocking out the sun. She has been in the city for months and able to observe the rift for as long as it's been visible, and it makes no sense for her to make this assertion unless she's linked the sun's disappearance with the rift's appearance.

The colour of the sky changes around the rift. It's lighter closer to the rift, and darker further away. This is a clear indication that the rift is affecting the colour of the sky. There is no reason for Haley to conclude a spell is responsible for the sky's appearance, let alone that it's a spell that prevents her friends from finding her.

[Random Guy]

David, what I think FujinAkari is trying to say it that the sky is not abnormal due to Cloister, but because of the rift. This is indirectly stated in OOTS #530, actually. Thus, the color of the sky has nothing to do with the area of effect of the Cloister spell. So, even if the sky looks normal, she could still be in the effected area. She also does not know about the Cloister spell over the city.

[xyzchyx]

This is the short range, the quite short range, choice. After a little time has passed and nobody has found you, you start using active measures, such as notifying authorities who can put out an announcement, or - to copy Haley - move to a place where you are more easily seen. Only if one thinks that the resources of your companions are inadequate to locate you where you are. That there is something actively blocking V's attempts to reach her has not occurred to her.

Which is the question: Why hasn't it occurred to her?
Because she completely trusts V and the others to contact her when the time is appropriate, and she figures they know better than her about when and how to do that. Anyways, I dare say the primary reason that we even know about it is because we saw that Durkon and V were having difficulty reaching her and before that we saw Xykon cast the cloister spell, and made reasonable speculations about what it did. Had we not seen either of these two things, I would then conclude that the only reason we might suspect it is that way at all is because we've been debating the subject to death on the forum and would have likely come to some sort of concensus. Haley, not having access to these reflections, would still have no obvious means of realizing what might be going on.

The only ignorance Haley is genuinely guilty of is in overestimating her companions' ability to contact her whenever they want to.

[Forum Explorer]

You really should start a new thead for your argument. While it does relate to 530 it also relates to several other comics.

Haley's decision to stay inside the city may have not been the smartest choice but characters always have made bad choices, like Belkar not joining Xykon in order to remove the moj.

When Haley got to the caves there probley would have been people there. They needed help so that's why she stayed for the little while it took for the Resistance to form.

In 530 it says she considered leaving the city to look but she rejected that idea, due to not having a way to find them [I]because of a lack of magic.[/]

This means she hasn't considered the magic failing. Sure this is a little short-sighted of her but not unreasonable.

[Ascension]

Uncharacteristic is fairly easy. Haley has been the active sort in just about every part of the story. She is not the passive princess who waits for rescue. Not a complete list...
She takes the position of assistant leader. Not appointed. She creates it.
She gets kidnapped. She rescues herself.
The party confronts the bandits. She quickly lures one bandit into a trap. She leads the attempt to rescue Elan.
The party goes after the ogres. Haley quickly volunteers.
She decides the party is going to retreat after the fall of the castle.
She decides to rescue Roy's body.
And now she creates the resistance.

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

I know this is several pages back, but unless I missed something there's a problem here that no one else has pointed out. Look at what she says in 530 about staying put: "They have all the magic, you know?" In practically every instance you cited of her taking action, it was with magical support either directly on hand or at least somewhat close by. Now she is operating for the first time in the course of the strip without any substantial magical support... a few low level Azurite clerics, yes, but no one anywhere near Vaarsuvius or Durkon. Haley knows the power of magic in D&D, and it isn't a great stretch of logic to suppose that she might truly be afraid to take action in this situation without it, especially after how badly that sorcerer chick tore her up way back when.

[Aristeidis]

Very nice comic! The Scruffinator is awesome!!!

[Shatteredtower]

I don't see why Haley would leave. The goal was to thwart Xykon and his plan to seize a gate. Xykon is still in Azure City. It's all well and good for Eugene to kvetch about her wasting a perfectly good opportunity (he is the expert on wasting opportunities, after all), but this is also the guy who mocks Roy's hopes of defeating Xykon.

(Come on, Eugene -- what's she supposed to do? Sneak attack him? Oh, wait... undead. Well at least she can sneak up on him... oh, wait. Liches get a +8 bonus on their Listen and Move Silently checks, not to mention that +2 Wisdom bonus -- and Xykon was an old man before he... er... undied. The odds still favour her, but not as much as one would like against someone able to cast energy drain and a few Fortitude-based save-or-die spells several times a day.)

What I find most interesting about this strip, however, is how the city's other two resistance groups appear to reflect the goals or views of...

Miko and Kurobota. I'm not saying that either individual has had a hand in this, though even if the latter has had nothing to do with this faction, there's no question that he'll exploit it if he ever learns of it. (Miko's involvement in the faction that mirrors her beliefs about Roy's team, on the other hand, is extremely unlikely.)

I doubt there's actually any relevance to the (slight) resemblance, but it seemed best to spoil it just in case.

[Alfryd]

That there is something actively blocking V's attempts to reach her has not occurred to her.

So why would she sit back and just wait for rescue by the rest of the party? Why wouldn't she use whatever idea she might come up with to get hold of the rest of the party?

In practically every instance you cited of her taking action, it was with magical support either directly on hand or at least somewhat close by. Now she is operating for the first time in the course of the strip without any substantial magical support...
I can imagine Haley following that rationale, for say, a week. Maybe two.

But after three fracking months she's got to be questioning the prudence of the current 'let's sit tight and rack up some karma!' approach, and wondering precisely why the crew haven't gotten in touch yet. She's by no means stupid, and it couldn't be that difficult to track down information on the current whereabouts of the ruler of Azure City, last seen with her partners-in-superficially-crime-like-activities, the Order of the Stick.

This is stretching my suspension of disbelief.

[Alfryd]

She has been a member of a small group, six people for the most part. At that size, there is very little specialization.
David, you are familiar with these things called 'classes', aren't you?

[xyzchyx]

I can imagine Haley following that rationale, for say, a week. Maybe two.

But after three fracking months she's got to be questioning the prudence of the current 'let's sit tight and rack up some karma!' approach, and wondering precisely why the crew haven't gotten in touch yet.Only if she thought that her companions had already been trying to reach her and failing. Yes, she's _THAT_ confident in their abilities and knowledge. She doesn't know _WHY_ they haven't tried contacting her, but that doesn't diminish her trust in them that they will succeed when they want to.

[Shatteredtower]

But after three fracking months she's got to be questioning the prudence of the current 'let's sit tight and rack up some karma!' approach, and wondering precisely why the crew haven't gotten in touch yet.Why? Three months is not that long in the scheme of things. There are people who need her right now and Xykon isn't apparently going anywhere.


She's by no means stupid, and it couldn't be that difficult to track down information on the current whereabouts of the ruler of Azure City, last seen with her partners-in-superficially-crime-like-activities, the Order of the Stick.And the answer would be, "At sea," which is of no help at all. She's looking for a bunch of ships that have yet to find a welcoming harbour.

[Alfryd]

Yes, she's _THAT_ confident in their abilities and knowledge. She doesn't know _WHY_ they haven't tried contacting her, but that doesn't diminish her trust in them that they will succeed when they want to.
I would believe this might realistically be the case if, say, Elan were stranded behind enemy lines for 3 months, in which case he would be dead. But coming from Haley? I'm sorry. I don't buy it.

Why? Three months is not that long in the scheme of things. There are people who need her right now and Xykon isn't apparently going anywhere.
...And the answer would be, "At sea," which is of no help at all. She's looking for a bunch of ships that have yet to find a welcoming harbour.
I don't think you quite appreciate the issues of scale in operation here. In 'the grand scheme of things', everybody on this planet is potentially dead within months unless Haley can find a way to deliver Roy's corpse to Durkon. That Is Top Priority. She's gotta have some inkling of this. And the best explanation we get? "Oh, I wouldn't know where to begin"- What kind of feeble, temporizing, damsel-in-distress-bull**** is that supposed to be?

Yes, there are difficulties and unknowns to deal with when trying to contact the rest of her party. There are also difficulties and unknowns if she stays in Azure City. Even knowing that they're 'at sea' grants her some indication of where to go- ports, harbours, shipyards, where she can sniff around for information- maybe hire a Diviner for her purposes. I don't know. But given that the fate of the planet hangs in the balance, I would say ANYTHING is worth trying.

[Alfryd]

Now, if Haley were to come out and say
:haley: "I can't just leave. I can't leave these people to fend for themselves."

...then I could just about buy that she's still hoping the party casters will take the initiative, riding in, guns blazing. But there's nothing to suggest that's the case, which indicates that either-
A. she's been abandoned to her own devices.
B. her party casters-including Elan- have been otherwise incapacitated- and therefore need her help.

[DrivinAllNight]

Ok, time for my two cp on this thing, :haley: explanation is quite sound, after all, what happens when two people get separated in a theme park like DisneyWorld, you meet at the last known spot for both of you, which at WDW would mean the exit for the ride, so since she knows they got away, it is safe to assume they still think she is there, and yes three months may be a long time, but have you ever tried finding someone who is looking for you too, it doesn't usually turn out so well, you each end up going somewhere the other has already been and before you know it your going in circles around the same spot following clues cause that someone your searching for was just there, so you just keep going in circles.
Now, if :haley: sits in one place then she can be expected to be easier to find, if it gets to be a year then maybe I would worry about the other people in the group not having made it back from wherever they may have gone. Till then, sitting tight, surviving and fighting against the forces of :xykon: seems to make more sense than gallivanting across the world trying to find someone who already knows where your at.

[FujinAkari]

Now, if Haley were to come out and say
:haley: "I can't just leave. I can't leave these people to fend for themselves."

...then I could just about buy that she's still hoping the party casters will take the initiative, riding in, guns blazing.

Doesn't she basically say that here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html)?

[Doopliss]

I just noticed... In panel eighteen, Celia's mouth is larger than the others'. Nice touch. :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Whether at an international airport or lost in the wilderness, that's the way it's done. You stay with the wreckage unless it becomes dangerous for you to do so.
In the case of the airport, that would be under 24 hours before you would be tossed out. And if you follow rescue attempts you find most are abandoned within a week. Again we find that staying with the wreckage is a short term plan. Once Haley has been a week without contact, she should have a very low hope that she will be contacted unless something is done.


The party know where they last saw Haley.
In a tower that is presumably now swarming with hobgoblins. She is apparently not within a mile of that location.


She has some resources there and has figured out how to hide. Haley doesn't know where the party went, or why they haven't contacted her. I really can't see a reason for her to haul her party to the --probably guarded and warded-- perimeter of the city.
Because she has not been contacted in the city and should not be expecting to be contacted.



A scout is not the same thing as a tracker.
And Haley would not be trying to track anything.


Being alone in a dungeon is clearly different to being alone in the middle of a wilderness...simple common sense tells us this, quite apart from the D&D rules.

Different, but not that different, both in reality and D&D rules. You use spot and hide for both.


As for going a "day or two out of town" requiring so little wilderness competence, I think you're thinking too much of real-life cities where there is no real wilderness nearby.
There is/was no serious amount of "real wilderness" nearby any city. A city is thousands of predators who kill and eat most critters, and have professionals who kill the critters who try to eat the people. The wilderness around Azure City has hundreds of paladins out there wiping out the dangerous critters. They may drift back in now, but that takes time, maybe decades, and surely more than the week or two we are discussing.


Fact is, we don't know how bad things are close to Azure City, particularly with the infrastructure of the Sapphire Guard (that would have kept things in check) destroyed.
We don't know that there is any risk at all. And if we do assume risk, we have Haley as very good at hide. So the odds of the danger finding her is distinctly low.
Note here too that Haley does not mention any such danger as a reason to stay in the city. Instead she more or less says she can handle that easily enough, but she just can't see how she could find the party.



The girl's got abandonment issues, she's got self-esteem issues, and we've seen that, however gung-ho and self-motivating she might be under most circumstances, she'd prefer to spend weeks or months hanging in a limbo of indecision where she can't even speak intelligibly rather than risk rejection.

risk having Elan call and tell her that the reason they haven't come back is because he's dumped her for some high-Cha bimbo
All right girls, time for a quick survey. Raise your hands if some lout has called you up to dump you. ... Now raise your hands if he tried to dump you by simply not calling.
That makes our odds that Elan is going to call up and kick her to the curb about zero.



And Haley probably doesn't have any ranks in Survival, which is the necessary skill to handle striking out into the wilderness.
I've played or DMed about a hundred wilderness adventures. Want to guess how often I have needed to worry about walk-around wilderness skills? Don't guess in double figures. Tracking or such, moderately often, but for day to day survival, hardly at all outside of unusual climates.
V explains this when lecturing on random encounters. Wilderness survival checks are largely just dull, and are thus hand-waved. For the purposes we have here, if you were writing a module of Haley leaving the city, you likely would not include a single survival check. You would have a number of hide-move silent checks to get out of town, and then dealing with, say, a patrol of hobgoblins, and some monster, but your survival check might not be needed at all.



"Stay where they last saw you" is a perfectly reasonable thing to "do" about spellcasters who are dead, incapacitated, detained on another plane, etc. Those are temporary circumstances that, once overcome, will permit the casters to start looking again, and they'll probably start with Azure City.
But there is no such limit to the searching caster. They can search outside Azure City at the same time just about as easily.


Consider, for example, that Scrying and Greater Scrying only provide sensory contact, not location, and that they are thus ineffective for finding someone unless that person's surroundings are identifiable.
The spells allow the casting of Message, which means the caster can just ask Haley's location, and/or give her directions to where she can be picked up, and allow her to give an answer. In effect, they function largely the same in or out of the city.


The Vision spell might be able to provide Haley's location, but the answer it gives could be vague, requiring a mundane search to solve the spell's riddle-like clue.
Again, this would be about as effective whether she left the city or not.


If V were close by, she might well use Prying Eyes, but that spell has a max duration of one mile and limited sensors, meaning that their success rate would be much higher in a city (which can be methodically searched for possible hiding places) than in open countryside.
This spell has very little utility here. V would have to first enter Azure City and risk casting it several times to find Haley, who can be presumed to be hiding, making the chance of the spell missing her quite high. Now Tsukiko might be able to use it to find her if she keeps searching, but V would not try this unless she has already establish communication with Haley.


Haley has no established reason to know any of this
She doesn't need to have knowledge of these spells in particular. All she needs to know is what we have seen her "learn", that there are magic spells that do not require any knowledge of your location in order to find you and communicate with you.


Outside of the Scrying spells (which V might not know, or which might require focii V can't get, for all Haley knows), most divination spells work a lot better with at least a vague idea of where the subject is.
No such requirement is in the rules. Nor does Haley assume such when we see her in 484. She expects to be contacted, and is not concerned about being well away from her last known location.


Again, she knows what she doesn't know. It's not at all unreasonable to suspect that scrying/location/message spells might have a range or area limit, and that would make it vital for Haley to stay put.
But here you are trying to assume knowledge for Haley, knowledge that is false. The rules do provide spells that locate her without regard to location and these are the spells she would have to be expecting Durkon and/or V to be using.

A basic problem to your argument is that you say Haley might miss the very day they try a spell that only affect Azure City, despite her knowing that they have not successfully used such a spell on the previous several days, and they will not try that spell again later. Just stating this should show the odds are distinctly low. So it is better to test the idea that the spell is being blocked in Azure City.


the 3 resistance movements get by somehow, so clearly it's possible to fly under the radar.
But they are trying to avoid being found. We are trying to find someone who is hiding.


And Azure City's got, what, 500,000 people? That's an impossible task if you're going door-to-door, but hardly insurmountable for someone working smart (especially with some low-level magic or a connection to the resistance).
It's quality can be judged by the fact that Elan is its champion and the others reject any such idea.


I wrote an answer, but it was unbelievably long and tedious, so I deleted it.
Bad policy. We are trying to judge your logic, not your declaration.


Suffice it to say that trying to remain hidden (from Xykon) and simultaneously trying to be found (by the party) presents Haley with lots of options to improve her chances of the latter by risking the success of the former.
How?


My main point, though, is that leaving the city would be one of the single most dangerous experiments Haley could try, with no more expected reward than any other.
Why?


Getting out of (let alone back into) Azure City with no magic would be tough even for Haley,
Our available evidence is that it would be a piece of cake for Haley. She is a very skilled Rogue vs 1st level Hobs and she gets to choose where and how while the guards have to be everywhere. Note here that Haley does not regard leaving the city as a problem. She just doesn't see what she could do next.


and even assuming that Xykon hasn't set up some infallible alarm system around the perimeter
But that cuts both ways. That alarm system traps her. And means she is not getting rescued. That means she has to assume it is not there until she has some evidence it is.


either she takes them along, which is begging for Roy's corpse to get captured,
Again, we see the three of them wandering the city almost at will. The risk you deem grave is shown in the comic as trivial.


It's human nature to overestimate loss and underestimate gain.
Then why do lotteries prosper? They require the opposite.


As for Haley never thinking to leave the city... I believe she stated the opposite in #530, panel 2. She's thought to leave the city, but feels that it would be a bad idea. If you're referring to the idea that the city is blocking V's divination attempts, we don't know that she hasn't thought of it, only that she hasn't acted on it.
She says she has not acted on it for a reason, that she would not know how to find the party. In other words, she has not realized they would be able to find her.


Is it even remotely possible that you are wrong about this?
Such statements work both ways. And so far, most of the arguments against my position have been just that, arguments, not presentations of facts.



Look at what she says in 530 about staying put: "They have all the magic, you know?" In practically every instance you cited of her taking action, it was with magical support either directly on hand or at least somewhat close by. Now she is operating for the first time in the course of the strip without any substantial magical support... Haley knows the power of magic in D&D, and it isn't a great stretch of logic to suppose that she might truly be afraid to take action in this situation without it, especially after how badly that sorcerer chick tore her up way back when.
No such fear is in evidence. She lost to the sorcerer? She is still willing to take on the mystic theurge, without magic to back her up.
Nor does she show such deference to magic, or to anybody for that matter. Consider the Test of the Mind. She does not wait for V to finish her lecture and allow him to solve the puzzle. Instead Haley jumps in with her own solution, which was logically inferior. So no, she is not paralyzed by a lack of magical support.



Doesn't she basically say that here?
No, she rather says the reverse. She didn't want to leave, so as long as she was staying anyway, she would help out. No duty to help the resistance rather than leave was mentioned.



if it gets to be a year then maybe I would worry
You expect somebody to call tomorrow. They don't. They don't call the next day. Nor the next. Are you really going to wait a year before seeing if something is wrong? Are you even going to wait a week?

[FujinAkari]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah

David, I read through your entire post, and I don't see you reinforcing the holes in your arguments anywhere. You just seem to be quibbling semantics with all comers.

You have yet to demonstrate any reason why The Rift's Coloration should make Haley realize that there is an entirely separate spell (cloister) present, why leaving the rift's area of discoloration should have anything to do with Cloister's range, or how Haley is expected to have intuited this reaction due to the rift's presence before the rift was actually present.

There are massive and gaping holes in your argument, and you continue to avoid addressing them, instead choosing to argue utterly unrelated points... why is that?

If you seek to win an arguement, the second step is discrediting your opponent's position. You are skipping the first: (re)enforcing your own claim.

[Shatteredtower]

I don't think you quite appreciate the issues of scale in operation here.Oh, that's rich.


In 'the grand scheme of things', everybody on this planet is potentially dead within months unless Haley can find a way to deliver Roy's corpse to Durkon.Nonsense. Roy is hardly that important.

[Niknokitueu]

If you seek to win an arguement, the second step is discrediting your opponent's position. You are skipping the first: (re)enforcing your own claim.
In his case, it would also have helped to have been right... :smallwink:

Anyway, it has more-or-less all been sorted out by #531.

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Alfryd]

Oh, that's rich.
Fnord?

Nonsense. Roy is hardly that important.
He's one of two people on the planet (that we know of) who know the location of the remaining Gates. That's moderately vital.

[FujinAkari]

In his case, it would also have helped to have been right... :smallwink:

Haven't you been paying attention? David doesn't have to be right, when the comic disproves him, he merely asserts that Rich is wrong :P

[David Argall]

DA Quote:
She has been a member of a small group, six people for the most part. At that size, there is very little specialization.


you are familiar with these things called 'classes', aren't you?
Oh yes, and these are quite specialized for the purpose of combat. For the purpose of getting from here to there, camping in the woods, etc, that specialization doesn't happen.
You take the random module which involves a little wilderness travel. You maybe get an encounter with a bear or other natural combat opponent. But for the actual travel and camping, a party of 6 rangers maxed out on woods skills would have little or no edge over a bunch of urban sorts who have no woods ranks.
Maybe the party needs to track? Routinely there will be a way for the party without track to succeed, generally with a good deal more trouble, but the lack of the skill is simply not going to be fatal.


I read through your entire post, and I don't see you reinforcing the holes in your arguments anywhere. You just seem to be quibbling semantics with all comers.
But since you accuse me of dealing with all comers, you are saying I have been dealing with your objections too.


You have yet to demonstrate any reason why The Rift's Coloration should make Haley realize that there is an entirely separate spell (cloister) present,
She doesn't need to know the two are separate. The logic is a-Something big and very visible has happened. b-Something else has happened. Therefore A may have caused B. We call this a fallacy when one says A caused B. But Haley didn't need to be certain here. She merely needed to suspect it.

As a minor note here, Celia mentions the cloister spell in 531 and had to heard of it from Haley, so Haley did know of the spell.


why leaving the rift's area of discoloration should have anything to do with Cloister's range,
While the area of Cloister is unknown, it is amazingly large if it even covers all of Azure City. So if Haley merely assumes the two are related, she gets out of the range of both by getting out of the darken area. And while we can't assume Haley is precisely aware of the area of effects of spells, she surely has a general idea. Given that the area has to be way larger than any spell she has ever heard of, she would feel pretty safe in assuming that once under a normal sun, she is out of the area of effect. Walk enough further so the dark is just a smudge on the horizon and she has good reason to assume she is there.


or how Haley is expected to have intuited this reaction due to the rift's presence before the rift was actually present.
You are assuming when the rift was visible and under what conditions. It's reasonable that the rift was visible from the first chance Haley had to see it.


There are massive and gaping holes in your argument, and you continue to avoid addressing them, instead choosing to argue utterly unrelated points... why is that?
Given the large number of answering I give, saying I avoid addressing them is a distinctly dubious charge. Notably, I have addressed the points you mention before. If you want the point addressed again, just mention it.



when the comic disproves him, he merely asserts that Rich is wrong
Our writer's human. He is wrong at times. If you wish to defend his logic when he is, go ahead.

531 eliminates a great many of the objections raised [unless you wish to join me in challenging the author's perfection, even if on different points]. Haley does not consider leaving the city a challenge. She does assume she can not only manage the relatively short trip I suggested, but that she can survive a trip of a thousand miles that way. Haley does not feel she needs to stay around and help the resistance. Raising Roy is more important.

We do get an emotional reason, tho an improved one over what was suggested, and not one she considers controlling.

But we come down to the "explanation" that Haley just didn't think of the idea that magic was being blocked. Yet we have Celia conclude that sticking around just was not going to work within a few hours of thinking over the situation. Haley is supposed to have not thought of this in months of thinking the matter over. I'll stick with calling this a flaw.

[FujinAkari]

As a minor note here, Celia mentions the cloister spell in 531 and had to heard of it from Haley, so Haley did know of the spell.

... do you have any idea how illogical you're being?

Ok, let me get this straight. Haley, despite being utterly unaware that magic was blocked, somehow managed to tell Celia about a spell she didn't know the effects of?

This is getting patently absurd. Celia -explcitly says- she knew about Cloister due to the tingling of the magic in her teeth, which pretty much destroys any claim that Haley told her about it. At this point you are just grasping at straws with such ferocity that you continue to fall on your face.


While the area of Cloister is unknown, it is amazingly large if it even covers all of Azure City.

Utter speculation. It is a custom made spell cast by an epic level lich. There is no basis for assuming it has the exact same range as the discoloration caused by the rift.


You are assuming when the rift was visible and under what conditions. It's reasonable that the rift was visible from the first chance Haley had to see it.

No it isn't. Haley was looking out the window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) at the time cloister was cast. I can say with 100% certainty that the rift WAS NOT VISIBLE at that time. In fact, I have said that, numerous times.

Your wrong David. Cloister does not seem to hamper with teleportation, and we will soon see confirmation that it doesn't affect physical movement either.

[factotum]

Your wrong David. Cloister does not seem to hamper with teleportation, and we will soon see confirmation that it doesn't affect physical movement either.

We already have that confirmation--the duergar (??) weapons dealer in 531 clearly must have got in from outside the city.

[Alfryd]

Oh yes, and these are quite specialized for the purpose of combat. For the purpose of getting from here to there, camping in the woods, etc, that specialization doesn't happen.
You are aware of these things called the survival skill and track feat, right? Quite apart from skills and feats like ride, swim, climb, handle animal, animal affinity, endurance, and self-sufficient, likely to give a distinct edge in outdoor situations? There is, in fact, an entire class known as The Ranger explicitly intended to aid survival in wilderness situations, along with the Druid, and, to a lesser degree, the Barbarian.

Maybe the party needs to track? Routinely there will be a way for the party without track to succeed...
How, exactly?
I'm sorry, but 'DM charity' does not a compelling argument for competence make.


But since you accuse me of dealing with all comers, you are saying I have been dealing with your objections too.
Quibbling over semantics does not mean you have dealt with the issue.

The logic is a-Something big and very visible has happened. b-Something else has happened. Therefore A may have caused B.
David, there are chasms in your atttempt at logic so vast it boggles the mind.

A. The Rift's discolouration is something that has happened quite gradually.
B. V's inability to contact Haley has multiple viable explanations, not merely that scrying has been blocked.
C. If Haley were to assume that V's failure to contact her were due to scrying being blocked, the absence of such intervention does not give a reliable estimate for when the cloister spell was raised, as you can't reliably pin down the point at which something starts not happening.
D. There already exists a perfectly viable explanation for the Rift's discolouration- YOU KNOW, THE RIFT- which has been expanding in proportion to said discolouration. Thou shalt not multiply entities beyond neccesity.

[David Argall]

You are aware of these things called the survival skill and track feat, right? likely to give a distinct edge in outdoor situations? aid survival in wilderness situations,
Note the words "edge" and "aid". They both describe something useful but not vital. The point under discussion is a claim that Haley simply can't hack it in the wilds, not that she would be at some minor disadvantage. So you are not disagreeing with me here.


I'm sorry, but 'DM charity' does not a compelling argument for competence make.
The "DM charity" here is built into the rules and is widespread. We are talking about the normal case here.



A. The Rift's discolouration is something that has happened quite gradually.
This is asserted. It is in no sense proved, and is highly likely to be outright false. We know about zero about what happened from around midnight 484 and for the next 100 days. We will have to wait for the scene to shift to Team Evil before we can assert much here.


B. V's inability to contact Haley has multiple viable explanations, not merely that scrying has been blocked.
True, but unimportant. Nearly all the alternatives being suggested are things Haley can't do anything about [unless she leaves the city]. But if she leaves the city for a short camping trip, she can test the theory at fairly low cost. If she was doing something vital in Azure City, this might be questionable, but as we can see from her comments in 530 and 531, she considers herself to be pretty much marking time. There is no reason not to test a theory that might work.


C. If Haley were to assume that V's failure to contact her were due to scrying being blocked, the absence of such intervention does not give a reliable estimate for when the cloister spell was raised, as you can't reliably pin down the point at which something starts not happening.
True, but again unimportant. This merely makes her wonder if she should prepare for a week of camping or a weekend. Given her knowledge of her friends, she likely assumes they are trying on a daily basis, and so after a couple of days, she would likely conclude the theory is not working out like she hoped [which 531 hints would be a mistake. Celia is suggesting that the blocking wears off rather than ends as soon as one exits the Cloister.]


D. There already exists a perfectly viable explanation for the Rift's discolouration- YOU KNOW, THE RIFT- which has been expanding in proportion to said discolouration. Thou shalt not multiply entities beyond neccesity.
This is simply irrelevant. Haley does not need to know that Cloister was cast at all. She simply knows she is not being contacted when she should routinely be contacted, and that some very major weird things have happened here. All she has to do is suspect, not know, just suspect, that there is a connection.



Ok, let me get this straight. Haley, despite being utterly unaware that magic was blocked, somehow managed to tell Celia about a spell she didn't know the effects of?
By your position, she definitely was aware of the spell, and of at least one of its affects [the blaze of light she would see "looking" out the window]. That she did not know all of its affects does not remove it from the list of things to worry about, and to mention to Celia.


Celia -explcitly says- she knew about Cloister due to the tingling of the magic in her teeth,
Celia said she knew there was an abjuration spell, of which there are several hundred in the various books, due to the tingling. There is no claim she knew it was Cloister in particular from that.


which pretty much destroys any claim that Haley told her about it.
Not at all. She is still using the name Cloister as if she expected Haley to know what she was referring to. Granted, she expects humans to have all the "normal" senses, but the name of spells is something learned, and she should not expect Haley to know that.

Quote:
While the area of Cloister is unknown, it is amazingly large if it even covers all of Azure City.


Utter speculation. It is a custom made spell cast by an epic level lich. There is no basis for assuming it has the exact same range as the discoloration caused by the rift.
It doesn't need the same exact range. So one extends 5 miles and the other 10? Haley should be going a good 20 miles away from the city. Either way, Haley is outside the range.

Oh yes, we don't know who made the spell, and there is a good deal of speculation that Durukan was the spell creator.



Haley was looking out the window at the time cloister was cast.
Haley was merely near a window at that time [if it was the same time. Quite easily the various pictures are no more than close in time and the spell was not cast until a good deal later], and was making no effort to look out. Rather the opposite, she was trying to avoid being visible from the window, which limits her ability to look out.


I can say with 100% certainty that the rift WAS NOT VISIBLE at that time. In fact, I have said that, numerous times.
100% certainity is 100% wrong often enough, no matter how often said. And its visibility at night was apt to be low at that time in any case. Haley's 1st chance to really see it probably came in the morning, well within the mystery time we will not know much about until we switch to team evil.

[Alfryd]

Note the words "edge" and "aid". They both describe something useful but not vital.
Yeah, but if you put a lot of non-critical little factors together, they often add up to one fairly critical big factor. You simply can't claim that different classes don't exhibit strong degrees of specialisation when it comes to wilderness survival. Nor is it trivial for someone with no training or aptitude for the task.

I just don't consider this particularly relevant to the argument. Surviving in open country may not be especially easy for Haley, but she can probably stock up on some personal supplies to last her a week or three, and the city's hardly a cosy setting in the first place.

The "DM charity" here is built into the rules and is widespread. We are talking about the normal case here.
Where is it written into the rules? Can you point this mandatory coddling out to me?
So, what, wizards should have no hesitation to enter melee combat, as the DM will slways be happy to facilitate their onorthodox career transition?


This is asserted.
Okay, fine, given that the Rift was smaller when it first opened, and discolouration grows more intense as you approach the Rift, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's the Rift getting gradually wider causing the discolouration.

It is in no sense proved, and is highly likely to be outright false.
Where, exactly, is the evidence that it's 'highly likely to be outright false?'

There is no reason not to test a theory that might work. ...This merely makes her wonder if she should prepare for a week of camping or a weekend.
What theory? That the abrupt but indeterminate absence of something happening could be attributed to an obvious aspect of arift in the space-time continuum actually being the side-effect of a spell you don't know exists?

There are plenty of good reasons for Haley to have left the city without resorting to this kind of retrospective crackpot finger-pointing.

...that some very major weird things have happened here. All she has to do is suspect, not know, just suspect, that there is a connection.
David, if I see an apple fall off a branch at roughly the same time someone starts tapdancing, I do not conclude- or even need suspect- that gravity causes tapdancing.

Yes, Haley might reasonably have suspected that either her friends had been incapacitated (in which she should leave the city,) or that magical contact had been somehow blocked around the city's environs (in which case, again, she should leave the city.) But the rift and/or associated discolouration has almost precisely nothing to do with it either way. Why drag it into the argument?

[David Argall]

Where is it written into the rules? Can you point this mandatory coddling out to me?
Where is it not? You have heard "We have got to have a cleric" lots of times. How often do you hear "We have got to have a ranger"? even in wilderness adventures?


Okay, fine, given that the Rift was smaller when it first opened, and discolouration grows more intense as you approach the Rift, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's the Rift getting gradually wider causing the discolouration.
The intensity of light increases as you approach the lightbulb. But the lightbulb is not growing. So you are indeed out on a limb.


Where, exactly, is the evidence that it's 'highly likely to be outright false?'
One point is that Haley does not mention it is growing. Rather her language implies the rift might be totally ignorable. She fears it is not, but she does not rule out that it is no immediate threat. But if she could see it growing, she would classify it as an active threat.
Since she doesn't, she seems to be unaware of any recent growth by the rift. While we can't really distinguish on her testimony between it taking a month to get to the current size and taking a day, we can pretty much say growth in the last month or two must have been trivial.


That the abrupt but indeterminate absence of something happening could be attributed to an obvious aspect of arift in the space-time continuum actually being the side-effect of a spell you don't know exists?
But Haley does know something exists. She doesn't need to know whether it was a spell or not. There has been a big explosion, and your telephone isn't working now. Do you not suspect the explosion was at the phone company?


if I see an apple fall off a branch at roughly the same time someone starts tapdancing, I do not conclude- or even need suspect- that gravity causes tapdancing.
There are several answers to that
a-I presume you mean that tapdancing does not cause apples to fall. [Since gravity is a constant and tapdancing erratic, Gravity is not properly a cause of tapdancing, tho tapdancing may be impossible in the absence of gravity. We can not explain why tapdancing happens on the dance floor and not in trees based on gravity.]
b-You generally do not suspect tapdancing causes apples to fall because you have seen tapdancing without apples falling and/or apples falling without tapdancing. Since you have seen several counter cases, you generally reject the theory.
c-If you didn't have these counter examples, you would suspect a connection. We can use salami logic here.
If you saw 100 cases in which every time there was tapdancing, apples fell, you would not just suspect, you would flatly conclude that tapdancing causes apples to fall. So why would you not conclude the same after 99 cases? You are saying one case is insignificent. So 99 and 100 are the same. And so we go down to 98, 97, ..... until we have just the one case.
Alternately, if we start with the one case, and we suspect nothing, why would we suspect anything after 2 cases? After 3? 4? 5.... and all the way up to 100?
The point is that we do suspect after the first case [and even after the 100th case, we do not conclude, except as a practical matter].
d-Keep in mind that this logic would have led to the correct conclusion. Of course faulty logic can lead to the right answer, but insisting it was faulty is rather an awkward position.


Yes, Haley might reasonably have suspected that either her friends had been incapacitated (in which she should leave the city,) or that magical contact had been somehow blocked around the city's environs (in which case, again, she should leave the city.) But the rift and/or associated discolouration has almost precisely nothing to do with it either way. Why drag it into the argument?
Because it is evidence that the local situation is strange, and thus that the failure of communication may be at Haley's end.

[FujinAkari]

This is simply irrelevant. Haley does not need to know that Cloister was cast at all. She simply knows she is not being contacted when she should routinely be contacted, and that some very major weird things have happened here. All she has to do is suspect, not know, just suspect, that there is a connection.

And she does not suspect. Which is why your argument fails. You can say "She just has to suspect" until you are blue in the face, but it does no good when the suspicion is not there.


By your position, she definitely was aware of the spell, and of at least one of its affects [the blaze of light she would see "looking" out the window]. That she did not know all of its affects does not remove it from the list of things to worry about, and to mention to Celia.

Yes, a bright flash of light. One of the 500 she saw during the course of the battle. There is absolutely no reason to attach special significance to another flash of light.


Celia said she knew there was an abjuration spell, of which there are several hundred in the various books, due to the tingling. There is no claim she knew it was Cloister in particular from that.

Or, rather than base a wildly unlikely assumption that Haley was aware of a cloister spell despite being utterly shocked when she learned about it, and having never mentioned it before now, we could just assume that Celia made her spellcraft check.


Not at all. She is still using the name Cloister as if she expected Haley to know what she was referring to. Granted, she expects humans to have all the "normal" senses, but the name of spells is something learned, and she should not expect Haley to know that.

She expects humans to act like sylphs, and EVERY Sylph is considered to be a sorcerer of as many levels as they have hit dice. Therefore, no, it isn't remotely unreasonable for Celia to expect Haley to have some fundamental knowledge about spells and their effects.


Oh yes, we don't know who made the spell, and there is a good deal of speculation that Durukan was the spell creator.

Which only further supports the argument that Celia's knowing about the spell had absolutely nothing to do with Haley.


Haley was merely near a window at that time [if it was the same time. Quite easily the various pictures are no more than close in time and the spell was not cast until a good deal later],

Typically things that happen in the same frame are happening at the same time.


Rather the opposite, she was trying to avoid being visible from the window, which limits her ability to look out.

Yes, because whenever I crouch next to a window, I can't see the sky. Being low next to a window and looking up is a HORRIBLE vantage point to see the sky from.


100% certainity is 100% wrong often enough, no matter how often said. And its visibility at night was apt to be low at that time in any case.

Except that Haley explicitly says that the rift looks the same at both night and day. Therefore, its visibility is identical.


Haley's 1st chance to really see it probably came in the morning, well within the mystery time we will not know much about until we switch to team evil.

So, in essense, your argument is "We don't know when the rift showed up, but my argument requires it to show up the next day, and therefore it did."?

[David Argall]

And she does not suspect. Which is why your argument fails. You can say "She just has to suspect" until you are blue in the face, but it does no good when the suspicion is not there.
But that is the contention, that it should be there. Saying there should not be because it wasn't is circular reasoning.


Yes, a bright flash of light. One of the 500 she saw during the course of the battle. There is absolutely no reason to attach special significance to another flash of light.
About the only "flash" on a comparible scale was the explosion at the castle, so yes, she would attach special significance to it.


Or, rather than base a wildly unlikely assumption that Haley was aware of a cloister spell despite being utterly shocked when she learned about it,
She is not shocked when she hears about Cloister. She is shocked to hear the spell blocks magic. She says "BLOCKED?", not "CLOISTER?".


and having never mentioned it before now, we could just assume that Celia made her spellcraft check.
On the available evidence, that may be an impossible DC for her and certainly a difficult one, which again says this is not something she would assume Haley would know.


She expects humans to act like sylphs, and EVERY Sylph is considered to be a sorcerer of as many levels as they have hit dice. Therefore, no, it isn't remotely unreasonable for Celia to expect Haley to have some fundamental knowledge about spells and their effects.
Since I am contending she did have such knowledge, I can't disagree. However "some fundamental knowledge" is not the same thing as the name of an epic level spell, which is what is at issue here.


Typically things that happen in the same frame are happening at the same time.
Note the word "typically". You acknowledge there are exceptions. And on the face of it, the artist is not concerned here with the precise moment in time. It make little difference whether actions A&B happened at the same time, or which came first.
We can note that Kubota is noticing Hinjo and Hinjo is noticing the fleet. The fleet is simply going to be visible to Hinjo well before Hinjo can see Hinjo's ship, much less before he can determine Hinjo is aboard. So it is highly likely there is a notable difference in time between the two.
Redcloak is pictured still on the beach, but he had no reason to stay there once the ship had gotten out of spell range, if that long. With plenty of duties calling him elsewhere, it's hard to see why he wouldn't leave quickly. [Indeed, 483 shows no hobgoblins in the dock area] So Redcloak's comment could have happened long before any of the other scenes in 484.



Yes, because whenever I crouch next to a window, I can't see the sky. Being low next to a window and looking up is a HORRIBLE vantage point to see the sky from.
Which is fine from my position.
The light from the cloister spell would light up the room, telling Haley something had happened.
The rift, at best a very low light, would not light up the room and would be easy to miss until the next day when the continued lack of light would reveal it.


Except that Haley explicitly says that the rift looks the same at both night and day. Therefore, its visibility is identical.
When you say "explicitly", it seems to be a guarantee it was not explicitly.

Haley merely says it is hard to tell the time of day. We can try to deduct from that that the rift is constantly the same, but that is no more than a reasonable idea. For example, we have the counter that Haley uses "swirling" to describe the rift, which could describe a rift that is constantly changing, which would make it difficult to tell time. So there is no surity that the rift always looks the same.


So, in essense, your argument is "We don't know when the rift showed up, but my argument requires it to show up the next day, and therefore it did."?
There is no such requirement to my argument. Rather obviously, we can add "by the next day" to your version. But my argument works fine even if it takes a week or more to reach its full state.

[FujinAkari]

But that is the contention, that it should be there. Saying there should not be because it wasn't is circular reasoning.

And saying that it shouldn't happen because it shouldn't happen is Begging the Question. Present your evidence.


About the only "flash" on a comparible scale was the explosion at the castle, so yes, she would attach special significance to it.

There is no evidence of this. Present your evidence.


She is not shocked when she hears about Cloister. She is shocked to hear the spell blocks magic. She says "BLOCKED?", not "CLOISTER?".

This is an intellectually dishonest conclusion. Blocked is a word that has meaning to her. Cloister isn't. There is no reason to expect her to react to cloister.


On the available evidence, that may be an impossible DC for her and certainly a difficult one, which again says this is not something she would assume Haley would know.

Well, we know Celia has a +7 bonus for being a Sylph, a +3 or +4 int bonus (that seems to be her primary stat), very likely a circumstance bonus for being as familiar with the spell as she is (since she worked for several years under its effect) and an unspecified amount of ranks in Spellcraft from her class levels.

I fail to see how this even remotely begins to be impossible.


Since I am contending she did have such knowledge, I can't disagree. However "some fundamental knowledge" is not the same thing as the name of an epic level spell, which is what is at issue here.

A level 1 wizard is considered to be familiar with all the basic mechanics of Meteor Swarm. This is why they can use a wand of Meteor Swarm with no chance of failure. Level is irrelevant here.

Additionally, please present your evidence that this is an epic level spell.


Note the word "typically". You acknowledge there are exceptions.

Indeed. And you have not demonstrated that this is an exception. Please present your evidence.


Which is fine from my position.
The light from the cloister spell would light up the room, telling Haley something had happened.

Yes, something exploded. She likely didn't even realize it was a spell since it appears the window was facing away from the spell.


The rift, at best a very low light, would not light up the room and would be easy to miss until the next day when the continued lack of light would reveal it.

Except that the Rift is plainly visible at night, since AGAIN Haley says you can't tell night from day. If the rift was only visible during the day, that would be an untrue statement.


When you say "explicitly", it seems to be a guarantee it was not explicitly.

Ad Hominem Attacks do not help your position.


Haley merely says it is hard to tell the time of day. We can try to deduct from that that the rift is constantly the same, but that is no more than a reasonable idea. For example, we have the counter that Haley uses "swirling" to describe the rift, which could describe a rift that is constantly changing, which would make it difficult to tell time. So there is no surity that the rift always looks the same.

In either scenario, a "swirling" rift or a "constant" rift, the rift is always visible, thus defeating your assertion.


There is no such requirement to my argument. Rather obviously, we can add "by the next day" to your version. But my argument works fine even if it takes a week or more to reach its full state.

Incorrect. Your argument asserts that Haley should attach some special significance to the appearance of the rift, which there is no evidence appeared within the first MONTH, much less the first few days.

Please present your evidence David, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

[David Argall]

And saying that it shouldn't happen because it shouldn't happen is Begging the Question. Present your evidence.
That is what I have been doing for quite some time. But to summerize...
Haley is intelligent, aggressive, and is aware she is not being contacted when she should be. She is also aware that strange things are happening in the city. She is also aware that a trip outside city borders should be a simple matter for a rogue of her level.
She is of course not sure there is any connection, but she is aware she can test the theory quickly and easily, and it is her nature to try something, not to sit around and wait. [We can note that due to the overdone nature of Cloister that this would not have worked and so a comment to that effect could have been included.] Accordingly, she should have left the city.


There is no evidence of this. Present your evidence.
The evidence is right in 484. There is simply no way she could have remained ignorant of that flash of light. Even if she & Belkar were sleeping and away from all windows, she would have heard from the hundred thousand witnesses.


This is an intellectually dishonest conclusion. Blocked is a word that has meaning to her. Cloister isn't. There is no reason to expect her to react to cloister.
But if there is no reason, Celia should not have used the term. Again, Celia learned the name "Cloister", and knows then that Haley has no reason to know that name.


Well, we know Celia has a +7 bonus for being a Sylph,
But you are simply asserting that the writer is using 3.0 stats without grounds beyond that is convenient for your argument. Since the 1st comic was the conversion from 3.0 to 3.5, we follow the 3e rule that what is good for the PC is good for the monster. Celia would have been converted at the same time the party was.


a +3 or +4 int bonus (that seems to be her primary stat), very likely a circumstance bonus for being as familiar with the spell as she is (since she worked for several years under its effect) and an unspecified amount of ranks in Spellcraft from her class levels.
These are all optimistic. A int bonus of 3 may be high. Working under the effects of the spell is no guarantee she knows a thing about it. Indeed the way it is described, she doesn't have a reason to even learn of it. She can treat the spell as a black box. Nor do we see any reason in her probable classes for her to take Spellcraft.


I fail to see how this even remotely begins to be impossible.
Since she may not be able to reach 23, 30 is pretty difficult.


A level 1 wizard is considered to be familiar with all the basic mechanics of Meteor Swarm. This is why they can use a wand of Meteor Swarm with no chance of failure. Level is irrelevant here.
Wands are limited to 4th level spells so a wand of Meteor Swarm doesn't happen. Possibly you mean a staff.
However, you are correct in saying level is unimportant in operating a wand or staff, but that is not at issue. Note that it is important in operating a scroll. And it is important in identifying a scroll with a spellcraft check.


Additionally, please present your evidence that this is an epic level spell.
Comic 532 seems to do that for me. However, as I have pointed out several times, the spell covers a fantastic area, far more than any known 9th level spell. Even before we add in that the effect is major, we are talking epic, and frankly, the spell is probably broken even for epic levels.


Indeed. And you have not demonstrated that this is an exception. Please present your evidence.
Again, I just did. Are you thinking that mindlessly saying "present your evidence" absolves you of any duty to present a case?
To repeat
"We can note that Kubota is noticing Hinjo and Hinjo is noticing the fleet. The fleet is simply going to be visible to Hinjo well before Hinjo can see Hinjo's ship, much less before he can determine Hinjo is aboard. So it is highly likely there is a notable difference in time between the two.
Redcloak is pictured still on the beach, but he had no reason to stay there once the ship had gotten out of spell range, if that long. With plenty of duties calling him elsewhere, it's hard to see why he wouldn't leave quickly. [Indeed, 483 shows no hobgoblins in the dock area] So Redcloak's comment could have happened long before any of the other scenes in 484."



Yes, something exploded. She likely didn't even realize it was a spell since it appears the window was facing away from the spell.
She doesn't need to deem it a spell, merely a major event.



Except that the Rift is plainly visible at night, since AGAIN Haley says you can't tell night from day. If the rift was only visible during the day, that would be an untrue statement.
It is plainly visible after 100+ days. We are talking here about day 1.



Ad Hominem Attacks do not help your position.
Saying something is explicit when it explicitly is not hurts your case.


In either scenario, a "swirling" rift or a "constant" rift, the rift is always visible, thus defeating your assertion.
You continue to confuse times. Haley tells us it is difficult [she does not say impossible] to tell time of day at day 112. We have no report about days 1-10, and that is the time at issue.



Incorrect. Your argument asserts that Haley should attach some special significance to the appearance of the rift, which there is no evidence appeared within the first MONTH, much less the first few days.
There is no controlling evidence. There is indeed evidence, again presented before. Haley's language implies a stable rift, for one thing.
Now you object that nothing happened right away, as often happens with spells. But often is not always. The phrase "...in a single night/day..." is common enough in our fantasy literature.

[Alfryd]

Since you have seen several counter cases, you generally reject the theory...
...One point is that Haley does not mention it is growing. ...She fears it is not, but she does not rule out that it is no immediate threat.
...Where is it not?
David, as I could swear I have pointed out to you more than once beforehand, absence of evidence for falsehood is not evidence for truth. It's either stated explicitly, or it ain't. You're claiming it is, so show me the money.

Because it is evidence that the local situation is strange, and thus that the failure of communication may be at Haley's end.
...But Haley does know something exists.
What, exactly, is 'something' here? Uncovering a cache of silver spoons? Her time of month? A barry manilow convention? There are any number of things which could incidentally coincide with the approximate guesstimate of when V started not-contacting-her. And the 'region of discolouration' has jack squat diddly to do with it.

There has been a big explosion, and your telephone isn't working now. Do you not suspect the explosion was at the phone company?
Yes, the colouration in the sky is a distinctly odd, conspicuous thing at work. So, for that matter is the neighbourly lich sorceror in his travesty of life, carrying several pounds of obscure magic items of whose properties you are unsure, or, in itself, being seperated from your party for several months. Singling out the Rift for particular, obvious, or exclusive responsibility would be absurd. Going on to claim that the Rift's direct and proportional discolouration has nothing to with the Rift, but should clearly be attributed to a 'Cloister' spell of whose very existence you are ignorant, is beyond farcical.

Your patent inability to concede error- however slight- does not at all lend weight to your arguments, David. It does mean you are more likely to be ignored.


How often do you hear "We have got to have a ranger"? even in wilderness adventures?
Well, given that clerics can summon food, no, it's not exactly an absolute neccesity. But a distinct benefit? Yes. ('course, a Druid would be the best of both worlds.)

The intensity of light increases as you approach the lightbulb. But the lightbulb is not growing.
This lightbulb clearly has grown bigger.

[FujinAkari]

Haley is intelligent, aggressive, and is aware she is not being contacted when she should be. She is also aware that strange things are happening in the city.

And absolutely none of this has anything to do with knowledge of spellcraft or the Arcane, which is what would be required for her to suspect what you are arguing that she should suspect.


She is also aware that a trip outside city borders should be a simple matter for a rogue of her level.

But not aware that leaving the city borders should have any affect upon the situation, again due to her lack of arcane knowledge.


She is of course not sure there is any connection, but she is aware she can test the theory quickly and easily.

She can also easily test to see if eating donuts will cause Xykon to die, but we are not given any reason for her to suspect such an implausible thing.


and it is her nature to try something, not to sit around and wait.

Exactly why she didn't wait for Elan to ask her out rig- oh, wait.


The evidence is right in 484. There is simply no way she could have remained ignorant of that flash of light. Even if she & Belkar were sleeping and away from all windows, she would have heard from the hundred thousand witnesses.

All of which kill her on sight. Diplomacy and Gather Information rolls don't work on hostile targets. Pretty much any member of the to-be resistence would have been very much in hiding by this point.


But if there is no reason, Celia should not have used the term. Again, Celia learned the name "Cloister", and knows then that Haley has no reason to know that name.

Are you honestly basing an argument on "Celia assumed Haley already knew about it!" after Celia has assumed Haley can shoot lightning from her fingers, charm people, and been inherently able to sense magical energies?

<Snipping a lot of drivel that has to do with how Celia identified cloister, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument>>


Again, I just did. Are you thinking that mindlessly saying "present your evidence" absolves you of any duty to present a case?

Not at all, I am merely not allowing you to assume the defensive. If you wish to prove your argument, prove it. The burden of proof is on you, and I am still waiting for anything beyond mere speculation.

<Snipping some about Hinjo and the fleet, as that -also- has absolutely nothing to do with Haley>


She doesn't need to deem it a spell, merely a major event.

Or she could deem it an explosion, one of 50 she's seen already.


It is plainly visible after 100+ days. We are talking here about day 1.

So now you are arguing that Haley -can't- see it on Day 1? But should still be reacting to its presence?


Saying something is explicit when it explicitly is not hurts your case.

I do not have a case. Once again, you are the one trying to prove his argument. Quit trying to assume the defense.


You continue to confuse times. Haley tells us it is difficult [she does not say impossible] to tell time of day at day 112. We have no report about days 1-10, and that is the time at issue.

I am not the one arguing that Haley should be reacting to a rift that most likely isn't even there... or maybe you're argument is that she should react to the rift that hasn't shown up yet... I'm not really sure, your argument is pretty disjointed.


There is no controlling evidence. There is indeed evidence, again presented before. Haley's language implies a stable rift, for one thing.

This does absolutely nothing to help your claim that the rift showed up instantly as soon as convenient for your argument.


Now you object that nothing happened right away, as often happens with spells. But often is not always. The phrase "...in a single night/day..." is common enough in our fantasy literature.

Please find me a single spell which has an instantainious effect a day AFTER the casting is concluded.

[David Argall]

absence of evidence for falsehood is not evidence for truth.
The proper phrase is "absence of proof is not proof of absence". In the point of evidence, it is incorrect. Negative evidence is often weak evidence, but it is still evidence. We eventually decide the check is not in the mail when we have enough of that negative evidence.


It's either stated explicitly, or it ain't.
Not at all. All sorts of things are merely implied. For the most immediate and obvious example, where does it explicitly state that our wiz and druid are getting it on? It seems entirely obvious in the last picture of 532, but it is not explicitly stated.


What, exactly, is 'something' here?
Just about anything. Haley does not need to know what is going on. She just needs to know what she does not, that conditions are not normal. That is all she needs to know to have a theory that there is something wrong on her end.


And the 'region of discolouration' has jack squat diddly to do with it.
So? She does not need a correct theory in order to act here.


Singling out the Rift for particular, obvious, or exclusive responsibility would be absurd.
But she is not required to do that. It could be any of a whole lot of things. The rift is merely the obvious one that brings the idea to mind.

The reasoning, as I said before, is simple. She is not getting communication she should be getting. One possible reason she may not be is that she is in a bad location. She has evidence that may be the case. So why shouldn't she test this? What else does she have to do?
The idea is wrong? Well, she tried anyway, and can move onto other things. But if it is right, she has overcome a major hurdle.


But a distinct benefit? Yes.
But we are not talking about distinct benefits here. The contention is that Haley simply could not manage a short trip at all, that the ranger/druid is absolutely necessary, not that it would merely be useful. [The fact that she is now planning a journey of about 1000 miles shows how absurd the idea is.]


This lightbulb clearly has grown bigger.
No, the lightbulb simply occupies a larger percentage of your area of vision, something easily verified by moving away from it.
Haley can also move towards and away from the "lightbulb" and so knows the rift is not growing [or would know it is].

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
Haley is intelligent, aggressive, and is aware she is not being contacted when she should be. She is also aware that strange things are happening in the city.


And absolutely none of this has anything to do with knowledge of spellcraft or the Arcane, which is what would be required for her to suspect what you are arguing that she should suspect.
Again with this position that she doesn't know magic despite living in a magical world? OK, let's give that position a slap.
In 524, Haley knows that you can have a 2nd save vs Dominate Person.
In 521, she knows that Xykon can remove that mark of justice.
In 518, she knows that a spell is not core.
In 512, she knows that Dancing Lights is a very low level spell.

I haven't bothered to check the previous 50 appearances, but the point should be clear. She does know magic well enough for the purposes under discussion.

Quote:
She is also aware that a trip outside city borders should be a simple matter for a rogue of her level.


But not aware that leaving the city borders should have any affect upon the situation, again due to her lack of arcane knowledge.
See above on that "lack", but again, she does not need to know. She need only suspect. Even a big majority of the evidence saying it is not is not enough reason not to try this theory since she has nothing better to do with her time.

Quote:
She is of course not sure there is any connection, but she is aware she can test the theory quickly and easily.


She can also easily test to see if eating donuts will cause Xykon to die, but we are not given any reason for her to suspect such an implausible thing.
But we are given a very blatent fact [2 really] to allow her to suspect that moving will have the desired effect.


Exactly why she didn't wait for Elan to ask her out rig- oh, wait.
Actually she didn't wait. See 307. But Elan was important, very important, and she was not sure she could take a no. Here it is a much less serious worry.

Quote:
The evidence is right in 484. There is simply no way she could have remained ignorant of that flash of light. Even if she & Belkar were sleeping and away from all windows, she would have heard from the hundred thousand witnesses.


All of which kill her on sight.
I said 100,000, not the mere 20,000 hobgoblins. The city had a mass of future slaves at the time in question.

Quote:
But if there is no reason, Celia should not have used the term. Again, Celia learned the name "Cloister", and knows then that Haley has no reason to know that name.


Are you honestly basing an argument on "Celia assumed Haley already knew about it!" after Celia has assumed Haley can shoot lightning from her fingers, charm people, and been inherently able to sense magical energies?
As noted, Celia had a [n inadequate] reason to assume Roy could shoot lightning, etc. She has no such reason to think they knew the names of epic level spells.


Quote:
Again, I just did. Are you thinking that mindlessly saying "present your evidence" absolves you of any duty to present a case?


Not at all, I am merely not allowing you to assume the defensive. If you wish to prove your argument, prove it. The burden of proof is on you,

<Snipping a lot of drivel that has to do with how Celia identified cloister, as it has absolutely nothing to do with the argument>>

<Snipping some about Hinjo and the fleet, as that -also- has absolutely nothing to do with Haley>
The burden of proof changes easily and frequently.

Note here you say a good deal of material is irrelevant. That is an assertion, one you must prove. You do not get the right to a] demand proof and b] insist that anything presented is not proof merely on your sayso.

So yes, you have a case to prove.

Quote:
She doesn't need to deem it a spell, merely a major event.


Or she could deem it an explosion, one of 50 she's seen already.
So where are the other 49? The only one[s] we are aware of she regards as major events too.

Quote:
It is plainly visible after 100+ days. We are talking here about day 1.


So now you are arguing that Haley -can't- see it on Day 1? But should still be reacting to its presence?
She may, or may not, be able to see the rift at the time Xykon casts the spell of Cloister. She can easily see the flash of light from the casting, or can hear from others later if she needs to. So she can react before she sees the rift, tho the theory does not require her to.


Quit trying to assume the defense.
Would this be pot attacking kettle?

Quote:
There is no controlling evidence. There is indeed evidence, again presented before. Haley's language implies a stable rift, for one thing.


This does absolutely nothing to help your claim that the rift showed up instantly as soon as convenient for your argument.
My theory is that the rift took a "substantial" amount of time to appear, a time measured in hours, not days, and certainly not months.

Quote:
Now you object that nothing happened right away, as often happens with spells. But often is not always. The phrase "...in a single night/day..." is common enough in our fantasy literature.


Please find me a single spell which has an instantainious effect a day AFTER the casting is concluded.
Contingency can do this easily.

But again, you are trying to demand too precise of proof. No such spell is needed.
The rift can appear at any of a great many rates of speed and be consistent with my ideas.
We assume the rift we see is an expanded version of what was in the throne room. Obviously that did not appear immediately after the explosion, so it must have grown.
The question is merely the rate. The model I prefer is some accelerating rate which starts small and grows larger and larger until it meets some limiting factor, rather like an avalanche. It starts small, rapidly grows, but it exhausts the available snow and stops growing at some size.
In our case, the tiny rift would have slowly started to grow and would have grown only slowly during daylight hours. It would have then accelerated and grown to its current size within a fairly brief time. Whether this takes an hour or a day does not matter for my theory. In any case, it them reaches some limiting factor and can expand no more. This might happen while Haley sleeps or some time the next day. In either case, Haley sees a very major event, one she does not know the exact effect of.

In the meantime, Haley has a lack of communication to explain, and the strange events here offer a possible solution. So why shouldn't she test that theory?

[FujinAkari]

Again with this position that she doesn't know magic despite living in a magical world? OK, let's give that position a slap.
In 524, Haley knows that you can have a 2nd save vs Dominate Person.
In 521, she knows that Xykon can remove that mark of justice.
In 518, she knows that a spell is not core.
In 512, she knows that Dancing Lights is a very low level spell.

There is no question that she knows some specifics about magic from rumor or personal experience, much like I happen to know that radio waves can be broadcast on two frequencies, deturmined by the space between the waves. However, she is no more able to come upon a meta-magic suspicion from these gibblets of knowledge as I would be able to figure out that the cause of my radio being on the fritz is that the connection...

well, ok, I can't finish that analogy because I -really- don't know how radioes work, but you get the idea. Merely knowing a few facts about something does NOT give you the ability to make an informed diagnosis as to the cause of that something's problem.

And yes yes, I know, "She doesn't have to make an informed diagnoses, she just has to suspect!"

That seems to be the crux of your argument, that she should suspect because she should suspect. Suspicion, by its nature, is NOT an absolute. If Haley -knew- something, she wouldn't need to suspect it. Since your argument requires her to piece together separate gibblets of knowledge to form a suspicion, there is an inherent chance that she -won't- connect the disparate pieces of knowledge... and your argument makes no attempt to deal with this. It simply begs the question, "She should suspect because she should suspect!"

David, you're wrong, and I'm done arguing with you about it.


But we are given a very blatent fact [2 really] to allow her to suspect that moving will have the desired effect.

What are these, exactly? That a purplish rift (that she knows is the tear in the snarl's prison and has no obvious effect on magic) is going to show up sometime between now and two and a half months from now? That something exploded somewhere in the city?


Actually she didn't wait. See 307. But Elan was important, very important, and she was not sure she could take a no. Here it is a much less serious worry.

Indeed, the fate of the entire world and every living being isn't serious at all.


But if there is no reason, Celia should not have used the term. Again, Celia learned the name "Cloister", and knows then that Haley has no reason to know that name.

As noted, Celia had a [n inadequate] reason to assume Roy could shoot lightning, etc. She has no such reason to think they knew the names of epic level spells.

See, this is precisely why this is my final attempt to reason with you, because you continue to prove that you won't be reasonable. 532 has Haley saying "Ok, now I want you to explain this 'Cloister' thing to me." That isn't a statement you make if -you're the one who told Celia about Cloister.-

You might say "WHAT? Cloister is the reason they haven't contacted me?!?" or you might say "Three bloody months in this place, all because no one knew what the hell Cloister did?" but you don't ask about a "'Cloister' thing" unless you are utterly unfamiliar with the term.

Despite this, you continue to argue the utterly implausible, that Haley already knew about Cloister and told Celia about it off-camera (despite it being a very plot-significant event) and Haley... I dunno... forgot that she already knew about it when she asked Celia to explain the term to her?

Basically... you refuse to revise your argument and simply continue to insist that you are right, regardless of how implausible and speculative the arguments become. Since you won't even let OOTS itself rebuke your arguments, I'm simply not going to bother trying to use reason anymore.


But again, you are trying to demand too precise of proof. No such spell is needed.

Translation: "You are demanding proof that I don't have, therefore the problem must be your expectations, since my argument is above reproach."

[David Argall]

There is no question that she knows some specifics about magic from rumor or personal experience, much like I happen to know that radio waves can be broadcast on two frequencies, deturmined by the space between the waves. However, she is no more able to come upon a meta-magic suspicion from these gibblets of knowledge as I would be able to figure out that the cause of my radio being on the fritz is that the connection...

And when your radio is not working properly, you check the connection, fiddle with the knobs, etc. In other words, you behave like Haley didn't. You do what you can to make it work, even if you have no idea if that will do any good.


Merely knowing a few facts about something does NOT give you the ability to make an informed diagnosis as to the cause of that something's problem.

Well, let's just add another fact she knew. 429-she sees Durkon cast dispel magic, which means she knows that magic can interfere with magic, which is precisely what she needs to know to have the idea that there some magic interfering with her expected communication.

And now we look at the total number of facts here. She is showing more knowledge of D&D spells than most D&D players. The idea that she has no understanding of magic is just not going to cut it.


And yes yes, I know, "She doesn't have to make an informed diagnoses, she just has to suspect!"

That seems to be the crux of your argument, that she should suspect because she should suspect. Suspicion, by its nature, is NOT an absolute. If Haley -knew- something, she wouldn't need to suspect it. Since your argument requires her to piece together separate gibblets of knowledge to form a suspicion, there is an inherent chance that she -won't- connect the disparate pieces of knowledge.
Now first, my argument allows her to merely suspect. And it allows her to suspect with very low knowledge, knowledge we now see she had in spades.

The chance that she won't connect the pieces of knowledge is no inherent defense here. Some pieces are just easy to connect and you are deemed brain dead if you fail to connect them. With Haley, the facts are entirely obvious and the connection easy to make.


What are these, exactly? That a purplish rift (that she knows is the tear in the snarl's prison and has no obvious effect on magic) is going to show up sometime between now and two and a half months from now? That something exploded somewhere in the city?
And most basic, that communication she deems reliable is not working. Also that she doesn't really have anything else to do with her time, but find a way to restore communication. All extremely obvious.


Indeed, the fate of the entire world and every living being isn't serious at all.
In the ways concerned here, not at all serious. But to the extent that was, it would be more argument for heading out of the city and trying to restore communication.


532 has Haley saying "Ok, now I want you to explain this 'Cloister' thing to me." That isn't a statement you make if -you're the one who told Celia about Cloister.-
True, but recall here that I am arguing what the comic should contain as well as what it does. The language in 531 is what you would say if you knew the other knew of Cloister, and that is not knowledge Celia has any reason to assume Haley does know. So that means that 532 merely gives you a choice of where to assign author error. Either he got it wrong in 531 or in 532. And either way, you are accepting that he could have gotten it wrong in saying Haley would just kick back in the city.


Translation: "You are demanding proof that I don't have, therefore the problem must be your expectations, since my argument is above reproach."
Since I do provide the proof you demand [see the part before that which you quoted], that translation is clearly wrong. You are demanding evidence of excessive detail, and the obvious reasons suggest a lack of willingness on your part to honestly consider the issue.

[Alfryd]

The proper phrase is "absence of proof is not proof of absence".
Oh, on the contrary. A complete absence of evidence for, say, Bigfoot fully entitles me to rationally conclude that Bigfoot very probably does not exist. The converse does not apply. Absence of evidence for Bigfoot being extinct in no way suggests that Bigfoot is real. Because he doesn't exist.

You were saying that Haley should have no significant trouble surviving in the open wilds because:
1. Classes do not exhibit significant specialisation when it comes to wilderness survival.
This is clearly false. You then went on to suggest that:
2. Wilderness survivial skills are largely irrelevant to wilderness survival because the rules say the DM is obliged to accomodate players in this regard.
This, too, is clearly false. You then went on to claim that:
3. The absence of an explicit rule in the game against such DM charity should be taken to suggest that such is clearly the norm.
Which is not only false, but crazy.


But we are not talking about distinct benefits here. The contention is that Haley simply could not manage a short trip at all, that the ranger/druid is absolutely necessary, not that it would merely be useful. [The fact that she is now planning a journey of about 1000 miles shows how absurd the idea is.]
Quite correct, but that is not what you claimed, or certainly not what I disputed. You claimed 1. 2. and 3. above.

No, the lightbulb simply occupies a larger percentage of your area of vision, something easily verified by moving away from it.
David, unless Azure City has been abruptly miniaturised, there is no fracking way the laws of perspective could support this conclusion.

For the most immediate and obvious example, where does it explicitly state that our wiz and druid are getting it on?
David, we're talking about the D&D rules set. Failing that, we are talking about your novel notion that Haley's failure to deny something is evidence for it's truth. And failing that, we are talking about reasoning by induction, and where it is or ain't applicable. Do kindly stick to the point(s).

Just about anything [could correlate].
Yes, David. That's rather the problem.

Haley does not need to know what is going on. She just needs to know what she does not, that conditions are not normal. That is all she needs to know to have a theory that there is something wrong on her end.
The relevant abnormality is V's failure to get in touch, on which point, I fully agree, she should indeed have acted sooner. But, again, dragging the Rift into the issue is pointless flailing.

[David Argall]

Oh, on the contrary. A complete absence of evidence for, say, Bigfoot fully entitles me to rationally conclude that Bigfoot very probably does not exist.
Ah, are you trying to argue with me? Or yourself? Your earlier statement was
Originally Posted by Alfryd
absence of evidence for falsehood is not evidence for truth.



This is clearly false.
This, too, is clearly false.
Which is not only false, but crazy.
Having challenged the truth of these statements, it is your duty by the rules of logic to produce proof of these statements, not merely declare them.


that is not what you claimed, or certainly not what I disputed. You claimed 1. 2. and 3. above.
I claimed none of them, at least in the sense you mean.
1. can be said to turn on the definition of "significant", which, since we are talking about my claims, means we have a default assumption my definition applies. This is defining 'significance' as that Haley would reject the idea of leaving the city on the grounds that she does not have these skills. Since we have her agreeing to leave the city, not just for a few days, but for a journey of a thousand miles, we have to rule the the classes do not show the needed degree of specialization.
2. The rules do not oblige the DM to do much of anything, including making wilderness travel the same as a walk in the park. But the point is that the rules widely and consistently downplay the chances to use these wilderness skills. A module may casually assume weeks of travel in the wilds and not so much as mention any chance of getting lost or running short of supplies.
3. What suggests that this is the norm is that it is the norm. Adventures where the DM looks at the adventure and then at the party and says they are not going to succeed unless they have a ranger or druid or... are rare in the extreme. By contrast, adventures where the party says even before they have any hint from the DM that they got to have a cleric are quite common.


unless Azure City has been abruptly miniaturised, there is no fracking way the laws of perspective could support this conclusion.
Now we seem to have a miscommunication here. Probably not worth the trouble of correcting, but... Your original statement was...

Originally Posted by Alfryd
Okay, fine, given that the Rift was smaller when it first opened, and discolouration grows more intense as you approach the Rift, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's the Rift getting gradually wider causing the discolouration.

I then pointed out that the same effect of 'discoloration' also appears when one approaches a lightbulb. Thus there is no need for the conclusion that the discoloration is caused by the expansion of the rift. A rift of constant size would appear in the strip the same way as it has.


we're talking about the D&D rules set. Failing that, we are talking about your novel notion that Haley's failure to deny something is evidence for it's truth. And failing that, we are talking about reasoning by induction, and where it is or ain't applicable. Do kindly stick to the point(s).
You are the one who made the statement at issue.

Originally Posted by Alfryd
It's either stated explicitly, or it ain't.

So I am sticking to the point when I point out the statement is wrong and provide an example of that.
Indeed, we can ask if your demand amounts to an attempt to avoid the point.


The relevant abnormality is V's failure to get in touch, on which point, I fully agree, she should indeed have acted sooner. But, again, dragging the Rift into the issue is pointless flailing.
The Rift is something visible and weird to Haley, and thus suggestive that whatever is wrong is on her end. It does not matter here that the Rift may have no direct effect on communication magic. Nor does it matter that my idea of a short trip out of town would not work under the details of Cloister given in 532. The point is that it gives Haley a reason to wonder if a short trip out of town would work.