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olelia
2008-02-13, 08:29 AM
Continuing with random things I found...by RAW, is there anything preventing a character from grappling an ooze? :smalleek: ...I mean...what are you grappling? Another note...how do you achieve a pin with an ooze!?

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 08:42 AM
No, there is nothing preventing you from being the one to initiate a grapple with an ooze.

Of course, remember that most oozes would have to be semi-solid to begin with. And I'm not just talking about those that can maintain a polyhedral shape (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monstersOtoR.html#gelatinous-cube). All oozes will need a certain amount of rigidity to do any regular, non-acid damage with its slam attack. Likewise, if the creature were fully liquid, one would expect they would, in general, at the very least have a sizeable bonus to Escape Artist checks, if not automatically succeed them. They don't (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monsterTypes.html#ooze). So, even with its amorphous, semi-liquid state, we can assume there's some bit of any given ooze that is solid and offers firm purchase for the would-be grappler.

Of course, most oozes have special abilities that activate in a grapple, so I can't say it seems like a good tactical choice anyway. But, hey, whatever works for you, right?

olelia
2008-02-13, 08:53 AM
Actually...the only ooze that you have to worry about is the black pudding because of its acid damage. The other oozes require slam attacks to kick in their special attacks. Course...that's assuming I'm reading the SRD correctly.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-13, 09:01 AM
Actually...the only ooze that you have to worry about is the black pudding because of its acid damage. The other oozes require slam attacks to kick in their special attacks. Course...that's assuming I'm reading the SRD correctly.

Look at the Constrict special attack entry for the Oozes (Engulf for the Cube). :smallamused:

olelia
2008-02-13, 09:07 AM
Engulf (Ex)
Although it moves slowly, a gelatinous cube can simply mow down Large or smaller creatures as a standard action. It cannot make a slam attack during a round in which it engulfs. The gelatinous cube merely has to move over the opponents, affecting as many as it can cover. Opponents can make opportunity attacks against the cube, but if they do so they are not entitled to a saving throw. Those who do not attempt attacks of opportunity must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or be engulfed; on a success, they are pushed back or aside (opponent’s choice) as the cube moves forward. Engulfed creatures are subject to the cube’s paralysis and acid, and are considered to be grappled and trapped within its body. The save DC is Strength-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.
The cube has to be able to move to engulf you. So it comes down to the ooze has to win the grapple to move.

Constrict (Ex)
A gray ooze deals automatic slam and acid damage with a successful grapple check. The opponent’s clothing and armor take a -4 penalty on Reflex saves against the acid.
Comes down to the has to win a grapple check. And the grapple checks on the oozes aren't THAT impressive.

Ochre Jelly = 10
Gray Ooze = 3
Gelatinous Cube =7

And like I said...I would never grapple a black pudding because of its massive size modifiers and the acid damage.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 09:32 AM
Comes down to the has to win a grapple check. And the grapple checks on the oozes aren't THAT impressive.
Yeah, the modifiers aren't impressive. But all these oozes are low enough CR that the die rolls on their checks tend to actually matter. Even a grapple specialist PC will have relatively low grapple modifier at this point. So it all comes down to the luck of a die roll. Bit of a needless risk if you ask me.

Okay, maybe I'd find the risk worthwhile versus an Ochre Jelly. But versus a Gray Ooze? No thanks. One bad roll and I'm naked! That's where I draw the line. :smallwink:

Burley
2008-02-13, 09:37 AM
Well, I have a couple suggestions:
1) Stoneskin. An ooze/blob/cube's acid damage doesn't affect stone of metal, so, you make look silly hugging the innards, but at least you'll be safe from the damage for at least 40 to 60 minutes...which should be just enough time to...wrestle with Jell-o...
2) Soften Earth and Stone. I don't think I've ever seen or heard of an oozeblobslimecube in any place other than some dungeon, so...just turn the floor into mud, it'll sink in when it walks to that place and the the stone will harder around it. All the stoney bits would be stuck in it, and won't dissolve. Should be a lot easier to fight when it's making opposed grapple checks with the floor...(At least, that's how I'd run it.)

Just try to take advantage of its inability to melt metal and stone.

BadJuJu
2008-02-13, 09:38 AM
Yeah, the modifiers aren't impressive. But all these oozes are low enough CR that the die rolls on their checks tend to actually matter. Even a grapple specialist PC will have relatively low grapple modifier at this point. So it all comes down to the luck of a die roll. Bit of a needless risk if you ask me.

Okay, maybe I'd find the risk worthwhile versus an Ochre Jelly. But versus a Gray Ooze? No thanks. One bad roll and I'm naked! That's where I draw the line. :smallwink:

Thats when I fail my fort save Vs Tequilla...

its_all_ogre
2008-02-13, 10:01 AM
i think the phrase should be considered as grappled is indicative.
nowhere does it mention it has to win a grapple check.
i would allow the grapple, but your grappling with something that paralyzes by touch in many cases, so i'd give it the ability as it should be given, you'd need to save every round. and take acid damage.
anything else is silly.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-13, 10:50 AM
Well, I have a couple suggestions:
1) Stoneskin. An ooze/blob/cube's acid damage doesn't affect stone of metal, so, you make look silly hugging the innards, but at least you'll be safe from the damage for at least 40 to 60 minutes...which should be just enough time to...wrestle with Jell-o...
The spell just gives you damage reduction. It doesn't actually turn your skin to stone for the purposes of adjucating things that do or do not affect stone. The spell name name is metaphorical, like bull's strength. (It would be an effective de-buff on any monster stronger than a bull, other wise.)

In any case, Gray Oozes and Black Puddings have acid that do affect metal, hence their ability to dissolve armor. Though stone is safe.

olelia
2008-02-13, 10:50 AM
Well of course anything else is silly. RAW tends to be that way :smalltongue:

daggaz
2008-02-13, 11:36 AM
The cube has to be able to move to engulf you. So it comes down to the ooze has to win the grapple to move.
.

..actually, if you read the whole MM ooze section, you find that the movement they are talking about is "moving into the opponents square" (sorry dont have my books on me right now for the exact ref. page). As grappling requires you to be in the same square, thats an automatic engulf for the ooze. Trying to argue the other way.. just hurts my head really trying to justify it fluff or mechanics wise.

Seriously, you are trying to wrestle The Blob. What more could you possibly expect? Any DM who seriously lets you wrestle an amorphous blob which can absorb and dissolve its opponents, without the use of some serious magic or something, goes into that bin of "insane DMs."

Roderick_BR
2008-02-13, 12:15 PM
Drink a potion of protection from acid, and eat it... I mean, I had players wondering how a gelatinous cube taste like...