What does Freedom of Movement look like in action?

[Freelance Henchman]

From the online SRD:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt, as well as on grapple checks or Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, allow water breathing.

How exactly is the bolded part supposed to look like? A big monster, lets say a giant octopus, uses 4 of its huge tentacles to ensnare a single human-sized opponent. How exactly can it *fail* to do that, unless the human target actually phases through the tentacles?

How (if you bother at all) do you envision this spell working?

[Craig1f]

From the online SRD:


How exactly is the bolded part supposed to look like? A big monster, lets say a giant octopus, uses 4 of its huge tentacles to ensnare a single human-sized opponent. How exactly can it *fail* to do that, unless the human target actually phases through the tentacles?

How (if you bother at all) do you envision this spell working?

I think most people treat it as if they're constantly rolling natural 20s on their grapple check. So, the player moves very dexterously, is as slippery as Teflon coated in oil, and very flexible.

I think that the effect of a character with Freedom of Movement in a grapple is obvious, after the player has successfully avoided more than one grapple. The first time just looks like luck, but the second time starts to show a pattern.

[Freelance Henchman]

I think most people treat it as if they're constantly rolling natural 20s on their grapple check. So, the player moves very dexterously, is as slippery as Teflon coated in oil, and very flexible.

I think that the effect of a character with Freedom of Movement in a grapple is obvious, after the player has successfully avoided more than one grapple. The first time just looks like luck, but the second time starts to show a pattern.

So any situation where for example the target is completely surrounded by the tentacles is impossible? I can't really see how that could work unless some force actually repelled them, with the target surrounded by a ball-shaped "forcefield" that the tentacles can't penetrate. But then they could not touch him either, so he could not be damaged.

[Irreverent Fool]

So any situation where for example the target is completely surrounded by the tentacles is impossible? I can't really see how that could work unless some force actually repelled them, with the target surrounded by a ball-shaped "forcefield" that the tentacles can't penetrate. But then they could not touch him either, so he could not be damaged.

Think of them as the unstoppable force. You simply can't do anything to hinder their movement.

[Tyger]

These sorts of things always end up boiling down to .... "its magic"...

There are a tonne of different things in D&D that make no sense. Fortunately, most of them can be chalked up to magic, which gives us the ultimate out. It doesn't have to make sense, its magic! :)

That said, Evasion, available to non-magic using classes, and its big brother Improved Evasion is touchy. You're in a 20x20 room, with no exits, no vents, no windows, no cover, no nothing. A Fireball goes off within that space. You have improved evasion, and make your save. You are not even singed. The walls are charred, anything in the room is potentially on fire, everything in the room was effected... except you.

Its one of those things that I just gave up on a long time ago, and marked it down as "fantasy"... :smallbiggrin:

[Freelance Henchman]

These sorts of things always end up boiling down to .... "its magic"...

There are a tonne of different things in D&D that make no sense. Fortunately, most of them can be chalked up to magic, which gives us the ultimate out. It doesn't have to make sense, its magic! :)

That said, Evasion, available to non-magic using classes, and its big brother Improved Evasion is touchy. You're in a 20x20 room, with no exits, no vents, no windows, no cover, no nothing. A Fireball goes off within that space. You have improved evasion, and make your save. You are not even singed. The walls are charred, anything in the room is potentially on fire, everything in the room was effected... except you.

Its one of those things that I just gave up on a long time ago, and marked it down as "fantasy"... :smallbiggrin:

True, Evasion is also odd for much the same reasons. *Sigh* I guess A Wizard Did It then.

[ColdBrew]

That said, Evasion, available to non-magic using classes, and its big brother Improved Evasion is touchy. You're in a 20x20 room, with no exits, no vents, no windows, no cover, no nothing. A Fireball goes off within that space. You have improved evasion, and make your save. You are not even singed. The walls are charred, anything in the room is potentially on fire, everything in the room was effected... except you.
That's exactly why I always interpret evasion (and reflex saves in general) as not so much completely avoiding something, but simply mitigating its mechanical effects. You didn't disappear while fire roared through your space, you reacted quickly enough to shield yourself so as to avoid serious injury. Maybe your clothes are smoking, your eyebrows are singed off, and the skin on your left arm is turning red, but you avoided losing hit points.

Think of it like rolling just under the AC of a guy in full-plate. It's not that you whiffed, you might have even landed a solid, textbook blow. Heck, he might have a bruise there tomorrow if he survives the fight. You just failed to produce a mechanical effect.

[Squash Monster]

I picture Freedom of Movement as the character passing through anything that would restrain him. Monsters grab him, then he passes through them. Ice freezes him, then he walks out of it. Somebody casts Web, then he walks through the strands.

For improved evasion: reflex saves also cover things like hiding behind your shield. In situations like the small-room fireball, I assume the rogue manages something like hitting the floor, hiding in his cloak, and rolling out any small fires on him in one fluid motion.

[ColdBrew]

An octopus grappling you is not a watertight cage of tentacles. It's just grabbing hold of you, which is easy enough to visualize with Freedom of Movement. Actually surrounding someone in tentacles such that they form a "wall" of sorts is not a mechanical option and requires DM adjudication. Freedom of Movement does not mean you can't be trapped or have your movement limited. You can still be stuck in a sealed 10' x 10' room, for example. If you could somehow explain/justify an octopus walling someone off completely, I'd say they're trapped regardless of Freedom of Movement.

[Tokiko Mima]

Why does Freedom of Movement suddenly sound like a hot oil wrestling spell? Does that mean all my characters with that spell on a ring are turning cheap tricks? :smalleek:

[The_Werebear]

I envisioned it, like Craig1f, for you to be like Teflon man covered in three gallons of baby oil. Anything that would stick to you that you don't want to, won't. If you are grappled by Mr Giant Squid, the tentacles slide off of you and can't find purchase. If you are trapped in webbing, the strands don't stick to you. I also imagine that you would be able to do things slide out of a suit of armor in less than 6 seconds.

[Chrismith]

I think most people treat it as if they're constantly rolling natural 20s on their grapple check. So, the player moves very dexterously, is as slippery as Teflon coated in oil, and very flexible.

I think that the effect of a character with Freedom of Movement in a grapple is obvious, after the player has successfully avoided more than one grapple. The first time just looks like luck, but the second time starts to show a pattern.

I think Craig hit the nail on the head. In a world where you have a 5% chance of succeeding at pretty much anything, it's not hard to envision a person "just getting lucky" over and over again.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually I would invoke Rule Zero to overrule any such situations that simply don't make sense. If you don't have any place to dodge to (which is quite rare, if you think about it), you don't get to use evasion. If an entire room is covered with tentacles wrapping around you, you might not be technically "grappled" but you certainly are prevented from going anywhere.

[puppyavenger]

I think Craig hit the nail on the head. In a world where you have a 5% chance of succeeding at pretty much anything, it's not hard to envision a person "just getting lucky" over and over again.

exept skill checks.

[Chronos]

So any situation where for example the target is completely surrounded by the tentacles is impossible? I can't really see how that could work unless some force actually repelled them, with the target surrounded by a ball-shaped "forcefield" that the tentacles can't penetrate. But then they could not touch him either, so he could not be damaged.Ever catch fireflies as a kid? You can cup your hands around one so that it looks like there's no way from the inside of your hands to the outside world that isn't covered by hand. But the firefly will still find some little chink, and just crawl right out before you can see where he's even escaping. I imagine it would be the same with a FoM character and a dire octopus.

(The trick to catching fireflies, by the way, is to just leave your hand open. If you don't try to trap it, it won't try to escape.)

[Curmudgeon]

Actually I would invoke Rule Zero to overrule any such situations that simply don't make sense. If you don't have any place to dodge to (which is quite rare, if you think about it), you don't get to use evasion. If an entire room is covered with tentacles wrapping around you, you might not be technically "grappled" but you certainly are prevented from going anywhere. I think this reflects your lack of imagination, KG. With Evasion you've got all the space in your 5' square (of which you occupy under 10%) to move around in, and as a Fireball blossoms you manage to sidestep the individual tendrils of flame because you're just that quick. And with Freedom of Movement the tentacles don't cover all the space -- they can't else they wouldn't be able to move and wrap around anything -- and you just keep slipping between them as they move thanks to the magical teflon.

It's your job as DM to describe the events so the world works with the D&D rules, not to change the rules because you're having a hard time describing the events. It's fantasy role-playing. Exercise your fantastic imagination!

[Newtkeeper]

fantasy[/B] role-playing. Exercise your fantastic imagination!

Nay, good sire, think again. If the rules give a silly result, he is doing his duty by mitigating that. Suppose that, in his world, a fireball has no 'comfortable gaps'. The rules exist to simulate the description, not the other way 'round.

[blacksabre]

Freedom is a bit broken because of the wording..and doesn't fit what some would consider believable circumsatances..

A couple of ways to house rule the Grapple vs Freedom of Movement
The PC with FoM gets an auto +20 on his grapple roll...

or

The PC automatically whens opposing grapple checks = to his Dex Modifier ( equal to the number of AoO the grapple attempts made) in the case of the octupus, who has 3 attacks per round, the PC Auto wins the first to attempts because of his +2 Dex mod (note: not having Combat Reflexes has nothing to do with the extra AoO)


No as far as evasion...to have it make sense that a Firball goes off in a 10x10 room floor to ceiling, one option is to increase the DC based on how little he has to duck behind or how far the edge of the area of effect is etc..This may still not make sense in the end, but may help you sleep at night knowing there no "easy button" with the auto evade ..

However, the rogue/monk have a lower base HP die because they have things like evasion to mitigate damage...thats why evasion is a class feature and not a feat that other classes could get..

[Kurald Galain]

I think this reflects your lack of imagination, KG.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean you should start throwing insults around.

[deadseashoals]

Freedom is a bit broken because of the wording..and doesn't fit what some would consider believable circumsatances..

A couple of ways to house rule the Grapple vs Freedom of Movement
The PC with FoM gets an auto +20 on his grapple roll...

or

The PC automatically whens opposing grapple checks = to his Dex Modifier ( equal to the number of AoO the grapple attempts made) in the case of the octupus, who has 3 attacks per round, the PC Auto wins the first to attempts because of his +2 Dex mod (note: not having Combat Reflexes has nothing to do with the extra AoO)


No as far as evasion...to have it make sense that a Firball goes off in a 10x10 room floor to ceiling, one option is to increase the DC based on how little he has to duck behind or how far the edge of the area of effect is etc..This may still not make sense in the end, but may help you sleep at night knowing there no "easy button" with the auto evade ..

However, the rogue/monk have a lower base HP die because they have things like evasion to mitigate damage...thats why evasion is a class feature and not a feat that other classes could get..

Don't do this! Grapple is a bad and unfun mechanic, and freedom of movement is an awesome mechanic because it gets rid of grapple.

[AmberVael]

Don't do this! Grapple is a bad and unfun mechanic, and freedom of movement is an awesome mechanic because it gets rid of grapple.
I disagree, because grappling is one of the few ways for spellcasters to actually be threatened. Something that needs to happen to them.
Seriously, Freedom of Movement is basically a "can't touch this" spell that is pretty cheap and needs to be toned down or removed. You should not be able to automatically succeed against something that big with a spell.

[deadseashoals]

I disagree, because grappling is one of the few ways for spellcasters to actually be threatened. Something that needs to happen to them.
Seriously, Freedom of Movement is basically a "can't touch this" spell that is pretty cheap and needs to be toned down or removed. You should not be able to automatically succeed against something that big with a spell.

Except that spellcasters aren't threatened by grapple, precisely because it's so threatening. Spellcasters always have dimension door or freedom of movement to protect them. Grapple hurts frontliners the most, as they're the ones that are always fighting the big monsters, and they're the ones that are always getting hit with improved grab attacks by beasts with grapple checks they can't hope to beat.

[Orzel]

You know in cartoon when the one guy grabs the other guy and the second guy slips out of their arms like a greased up hog.

that

FoM = the "I believe in friction when I feel like it" spell

[AtomicKitKat]

Biology tip of the day. Octopoids(and squids, cuttlefish, etc.) usually capture prey by "blossoming" over them, and trapping them within the webbing between the tentacles.

[AmberVael]

Except that spellcasters aren't threatened by grapple, precisely because it's so threatening. Spellcasters always have dimension door or freedom of movement to protect them. Grapple hurts frontliners the most, as they're the ones that are always fighting the big monsters, and they're the ones that are always getting hit with improved grab attacks by beasts with grapple checks they can't hope to beat.

...you just ignored my point.
My point is that ways to beat grappling every single time shouldn't exist, so that people will have a chance to actually use the mechanic and possibly negate the spellcaster's advantage once in a while. Yes, spellcasters should be able to avoid it- sometimes.. No, it shouldn't come up all the time, but if someone wants to try and grapple the damn wizard they should have a shot at it, rather than just having them wave a handkerchief labeled [Insert Spell Here] and go "nyah nyah, I'm a wizard and I'm better than you."

More on topic:
It should look like you're in bullet time.
Matrix skills. I'm telling you, it would be awesome. :smalltongue:

[Prometheus]

Rather than incredibly slippery, I always viewed it as incredible free and strong. If someone is grabbing your wrist, than you are still able to move as if there was nothing but open air around you (this might twist their wrist, and be inclined to let you go, but it doesn't really matter if they do or not). If they attempt to pick you up, they find you as heavy as rock and will either expend energy doing nothing to you, or slip over your skin like someone failing at picking up something heavy.

[GoC]

These sorts of things always end up boiling down to .... "its magic"...

There are a tonne of different things in D&D that make no sense. Fortunately, most of them can be chalked up to magic, which gives us the ultimate out. It doesn't have to make sense, its magic! :)

That said, Evasion, available to non-magic using classes, and its big brother Improved Evasion is touchy. You're in a 20x20 room, with no exits, no vents, no windows, no cover, no nothing. A Fireball goes off within that space. You have improved evasion, and make your save. You are not even singed. The walls are charred, anything in the room is potentially on fire, everything in the room was effected... except you.

Its one of those things that I just gave up on a long time ago, and marked it down as "fantasy"... :smallbiggrin:
I on the other hand just houserule it away.

Curmudgeon:Mind telling me how you dodged that explosive apocolypse from the sky?

[Talya]

I always think of them as frictionless (except for their feet, basically.) No attempt to stop them 'sticks.'

[Rutee]

I always think of them as frictionless (except for their feet, basically.) No attempt to stop them 'sticks.'

That would make you move as if you were in the vacuum of space; The smallest iota of thrust would propel you onward until you applied an opposing thrust.

...That's pretty cool actually. Ice skate on solid ground, except even better.


Curmudgeon:Mind telling me how you dodged that explosive apocolypse from the sky?
Apocalypse from the sky? That sounds more like stuff is falling then a blanket nuke, which is pretty easy to envision.

[Panda-s1]

Okay, you watch the last Super Bowl? Maybe not, but I'd imagine it'd look like Eli Manning escaping the clutches of like five linemen trying to take him down at once:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PxHh2K2iE8
(at 00:13, and 00:41 from a different angle). That or he just critically succeeded 3 opposed grapple checks.

[Freelance Henchman]

Okay, you watch the last Super Bowl? Maybe not, but I'd imagine it'd look like Eli Manning escaping the clutches of like five linemen trying to take him down at once:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PxHh2K2iE8
(at 00:13, and 00:41 from a different angle). That or he just critically succeeded 3 opposed grapple checks.

FoM would be more like someone getting away after 10 of those huge guys are piled on top of him when he's on the ground...