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Enzario
2008-02-13, 07:20 PM
So...
I never see much about this particular class around. My distinct impression from its entry is that it's a bit underpowered, but I'd like to know if there's any way to make it work well in a party.

Would it be best to go the bard route, being the über buffmeister, or is there another niche it can fill?

Talk, discuss, confer, DEBATE!

Frosty
2008-02-13, 07:25 PM
Give it full BAB, and buff its Lay on Hands.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 07:27 PM
Buffing is what they excel in, and from my personal experience with one in the party they're not terribly bad at secondary tanking.

Really, where they fall down is that their abilities progress linearly like fighters or barbarians rather than dramatically as spellcasters do. There's also not many prestige classes that will progress their abilities (the ones in complete scoundrel that progress any class feature are the only ones that spring to mind).

They could use some help, yeah.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-13, 07:27 PM
Frosty's got it.

Another option is to rip the Soulborn's chakra binds/essentia table off that class and tack it on the side of the Dragon Shaman's table, and give them access to the Totemist list. Makes them more shamany and more primal, IMO.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-13, 07:46 PM
Nice for a single level dip for the Fast Healing aura in most games particularly low magic and low level games.

Xyk
2008-02-13, 07:59 PM
One of my players is playing one in a current game. He actually is the co-tank (with a soulknife). He says it is actually a really fun class.The draconic adaptations like spider-climb at will, and a breath weapon are really fun things to have. They may not be the best min/max-ers but they are certainly fun.

Squash Monster
2008-02-13, 08:09 PM
They're a little underpowered, and their abilities are progressed by next to nothing, so optimizing one into being more viable is almost impossible.

The only interesting build I've ever seen with one was extremely dip-heavy, dipping into Dragon Shaman, Marshal, Bard, and other classes with aura-type abilities. It makes for a pretty good buff build, but it's so passive that it's not particularly interesting to play.

Prometheus
2008-02-13, 09:01 PM
I have always thought that fast healing should not be a first level ability. Like was said previously, it tempts a lot of people to dip into it and then never have to worry about any major noncombat healing. As for beyond that, I've heard its underpowered too, but I just can't get past that ability.

TheOtherMC
2008-02-13, 09:14 PM
I have always thought that fast healing should not be a first level ability. Like was said previously, it tempts a lot of people to dip into it and then never have to worry about any major noncombat healing. As for beyond that, I've heard its underpowered too, but I just can't get past that ability.

Well the DS's fast healing aura only heals to half hp so that solves some early-dip cheese issues right there.

Zincorium
2008-02-13, 09:31 PM
Yeah, if one hitpoint per round up to 50% of your max is breaking the game, your situation is definitely unique.


Downtime healing is one of the most annoying things in the game for me, once the cleric is out of spells it can flat-out end the adventure. No one in their right mind is going to keep going deeper into a dungeon when their intestines seem to be making a break for it.

Adumbration
2008-02-14, 07:02 AM
I'd say go with the Dragon Shaman. Just played on a one-shot with it, level one, and had a blast. Also, depending on what level you're playing, invest on Metabreath feats from Dracomnicon. They're great for buffing that breath-weapon up.

riddles
2008-02-14, 07:49 AM
doesn't help that of its two main class features (breath weapon and auras), you can pick up the most useful one for the price of one feat - fast healing draconic aura - and there are other classes with better breath weapons (dragonfire adept).

having said that, out of combat i would think it's particularly useful in certain campaign settings - i would kill to have infinite at will spider climb in a dungeon/urban setting or water breathing in a seafaring campaign.

it comes across as a dip class - 1 for auras, 3 for draconic adaption

serow
2008-02-14, 09:01 AM
doesn't help that of its two main class features (breath weapon and auras), you can pick up the most useful one for the price of one feat - fast healing draconic aura - and there are other classes with better breath weapons (dragonfire adept).The Fast Healing aura isn't available through feats, actually. Other auras are though.

riddles
2008-02-14, 09:16 AM
i stand corrected

the point still stands though

JeminiZero
2008-02-14, 09:25 AM
IMHO, Dragon Shamans work best with the Dragonborn race. Then you have 2 breath weapons, and you can load up on breath weapon feats to enhance both of them.

Burley
2008-02-14, 10:09 AM
Aight. If you want breath weapons, take the Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic. INFINATE BREATH WEAPONS, along with FREE METABREATH EFFECTS at couple levels, along with Draconic Invocations, like a Warlock. And, OTHER class features that'd make the Dragon Shamon's aura's look like prestidigitation.
If you want something dragony, but are afraid that the Shaman is weak, take the Adept...cause...the shaman is weak in comparisson. As are a lot of other things, really...

Craig1f
2008-02-14, 10:28 AM
If I were to "fix" the dragon shaman, I would do so by the following:
-Full BaB AFTER the first level. They shouldn't be quite as good as fighters.
-Bonus Metabreath at levels 1,5,10,15,20
-Double Draconic Aura as a bonus feat at level 8. At level 15, they can pick up the feat again (by actually investing a feat slot on it) to have Triple Draconic Aura.
-Scale the Aura power so that instead of 1,2,3,4,5, it's 1,2,4,6,8

Person_Man
2008-02-14, 10:32 AM
I love the Marshal and the Dragon Shaman. But they each have a fundamental weakness. Math.

Your +1 to Something or Fast Healing 1 (when your hit points are below 50%) is pretty spiffy at low levels. But at higher levels, +4 to Something and Fast Healing 4 (still restricted) just isn't meaningful compared to pretty much any other class.

Frosty/Fax have a good suggestion. Another option is to just double the aura bonus.

daggaz
2008-02-14, 10:54 AM
Ive played alongside many a dragon shaman, and folks are pretty much right on about them in this thread.

They are semi-decent buffers, in a low power/low magic setting, but its a bit too static and hands-off to be much fun.

Their abilities are subpar, increase at a subpar rate, and are pretty much worthless at high levels. Breath weapon, Im looking at YOU.

They also run the trouble of being a front-line melee class that umm... cant really stand on the front lines too well. Definitely need full BaB, it matches the fluff as well (dragons have full BaB, dont they?!!). That would make them better at least.

Good things we enjoyed?

Healing aura for low cleric/low magic campaigns, especially with multiple players and lots of different adventures over the course of a week. It also turned out to be a life saver for autostabilizing folks in bad fights... that alone makes it a pretty decent class ability actually, tho at high lvls the chances of being in that ten hp zone are pretty thin.

+2 to spot and initiative aura. That one just feels good.

Acid Blood aura (black dragon shaman), pretty weak most of the time, but in some of our lower level adventures, this actually saved our butts. There was an incident with a whole cave of spider swarms in particular, which none of us could damage otherwise, which comes to mind... Otherwise tho, really weak aura.

SpiderClimb and Waterbreathing/Swim speed ...the first is useful always, and reason enough to dip dragon shaman if your DM lets you, the second is great if you are in that kind of campaign..

Zim
2008-02-14, 11:37 AM
Tried one in a one-off game with a 1 level dip in barbarian for flavour and some more skill points and combat ability. It was okay for a level 4 character, but the other posters are correct about the scaling problems.

I actually used many of the abilities from this class as inspiration for a rebuilt version of the Paladin class. Basically, it uses auras instead of spells, has the DS version of lay on hands, and a few other fixes to make it a stronger class. It should still be buried deeeep in the hombrew archives of this forum if anyone's interested.

Maatogaeoth
2008-02-14, 12:12 PM
Played in a low power/light magic/no cleric evil pirate/open sea campaign with one of these as a companion.

He took a level of barbarian to boost up his weapon usages and some additional skill points for intimidate from what I remember. Being a dwarf with CON 16, decent armor and a shield, he was our tank as no one else could take a hit at all.

The auras were handy to keep us alive while we were trying to survive the lower levels. Once he got the swim/underwater breathing thing, it completely opened up the campaign to some really entertaining tactics. We just made it a point to have a bigger cannon than the other guy. Blow ‘em up, wait for the ship to sink and the people on it to die, then send the dragon shaman swimming to the bottom of the sea making trips with the loot they were carrying!

They’re definitely underpowered, but our group doesn’t tend to play that much that wanders out of that. Heck, that group consisted of a kobold rogue/chef, goblin fighter/rogue/swashbuckler thing, half-orc barbarian with an INT of 4 with a raged CON of 15 and STR of 19, and human ninja-thing that was basically a rogue that couldn’t hit a dang thing.

Amazingly, we got this group up to level 12 (starting at level 1). Well, except for the barbarian… poor Kruk.

In a group like that, the dragon shaman is fine as-is. I couldn’t imagine how bad it could be in a “power” group or a campaign where they didn’t get a chance to use any of their abilities relatively often.

I’d lean more towards beefing up the Dragon Shaman’s auras/abilities before I’d move them into a full BAB class. I like the idea someone else tossed out with doubling the auras powers. That’d be a nice upgrade.

Miles Invictus
2008-02-14, 12:31 PM
-Full BaB AFTER the first level. They shouldn't be quite as good as fighters.


Bad idea. Other not-so-fighty classes (such as the Paladin and Ranger) get full BAB. The non-existent flavor you'd get from making such a change is not worth the complication that comes from adding custom BAB progression to the game.

blacksabre
2008-02-14, 12:38 PM
Its not a very exciting build is boring to play in a combat roll..

After 7 levels, the one in are party opted for a character change..got bored standing within buff range and watching my enlarged ,raging, cleaving, glaive wielding Half-giant barbarian plow through melle like a scythe in a wheat field