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Grug
2008-02-13, 08:22 PM
A fellow hobbyist and I often argue on Cheese in our games. I seem to remember two things described as cheese here in the playground: the Belt of Battle, and the Fleshraker Dinosaur. This person I refer believes they are not cheese at all. Are they cheese, or is it just my imagination?

Also, the person I'm referring to frequents these forums, so let's not do any mud-slinging.

RTGoodman
2008-02-13, 08:36 PM
I'll give it to you that the Fleshraker is pretty cheesy. They're awesome, mostly because they're dinosaurs, but they're way to strong for their CR. Add them as companions, and you've just replaced the Fighter.

The Belt of Battle, in my opinion, isn't that bad considering its limited charges per day.

EDIT: Now that I look back at it though, the BoB does seem cheesier than I remembered. Especially for its cost. Still, I don't think it's the worst thing ever.

Metal Head
2008-02-13, 08:46 PM
Where is this fleshraker dinosaur?

RTGoodman
2008-02-13, 08:49 PM
Fleshraker is from Monster Manual III. Basically, it's a dinosaur with 2 claws, a bite, and a tail attack (all of them with Dex poison), rake, a tripping/grappling/pinning pounce ability, a high AC (20, I think), and a lot of HP.

Oh, and it's a CR 2 that Druids can take as an animal companion at 4th level.

Nebo_
2008-02-13, 09:07 PM
The fleshraker is pretty cheese at lower levels, but later on it's just mediocre.

The Belt of Battle is an abomination that should never have been printed, or should be an epic item.

Reinboom
2008-02-13, 09:15 PM
I prefer a 3 cheese mix. Mozzarella and a strong cheddar over something a bit more creamy, like cotswald.


In other news, the belt of battle is a very cheesy thing.
The most powerful resource in the game is actions, easily. Just, look at it with casters - not with "fighter" types of characters.
Unless they are CoDZillas. An extra turn of buffing for free is lovely for them.

Shishnarfne
2008-02-14, 09:29 AM
My motto on cheese is simple:

Everyone should have about the same amount.

That is, if the most expert player is going Druidzilla with a Fleshraker, he needs to enlighten he compatriots on the wonders of the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantrix, ToB, and the like. Thus, everyone gets extra gouda.

If you have several new players picking up core classes, hold the mozzarella.

This is to avoid the classic scenario of "Gee, I can't see why you guys had so much trouble with this thing," in which one character is sufficiently stronger than the rest so that any fight that challenges them at all overwhelms the rest of the party.

But, then, I usually just make jokes about my dairy allergy when I DM...

Uthug
2008-02-15, 06:20 AM
At such a (relatively) cheap price, a belt of battle is an excellent resource especially if you have little encounters per day. Actions are really valuable too.

deadseashoals
2008-02-15, 05:24 PM
The belt of battle really pisses me off, because it was printed in 2007. You'd think WotC would know better by now what constitutes broken, but the belt of battle's mere existence proves that they don't.

raistlin807
2008-02-15, 05:39 PM
Where can I find the stats for the Belt of Battle?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-15, 05:51 PM
Magic Item Compendium. It basically looks at the vest of the archmage as says "HAHA! PWNER DAN JOO!"

John Campbell
2008-02-15, 06:43 PM
I've found that the belt of battle isn't particularly broken unless the game you're playing in is already broken anyway. If you're playing in a game where Batman gets up in the morning, has an encounter where he casts his I Win spell combination and then casts Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion and takes the rest of the day off, the belt of battle just adds to the brokenness... and even then, it's not really any worse than a rod of metamagic Quicken, except for being way cheaper.

If you're playing in a game that actually tests your resources, though, one where just taking a break any time you feel like it means that You Lose, it's not really broken, because its sharply limited charges mean that you basically get 1.5 uses a day out of it... which may be way less than once per encounter. Using it to get free Quickening on a buff spell at the beginning of an encounter and then not having it available for the rest of the day, when you may need that extra standard action to get you out of a much worse pinch later, is not a smart strategy.

It also allows fighter types to effectively Quicken their actions, which gives them a badly needed leg up. The casters aren't getting anything they didn't have already; they're just getting it cheaper on a limited basis.

It probably should be more expensive, though. Not as much as a greater rod of metamagic Quicken, but certainly more than a lesser.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-15, 06:49 PM
The answer: You get MORE belts. One belt per encounter is a nice number.

Skelengar
2008-02-15, 06:57 PM
I don't know how much the belt costs, but it'll add up.

playswithfire
2008-02-15, 07:01 PM
Where can I find the stats for the Belt of Battle?

Magic Item Compendium

or right here:
12000 gp
+2 competence bonus on initiative
has three charges per day
[Expend daily charges for extra actions] [Please don't post non-OGL stats.]

Chronos
2008-02-15, 07:31 PM
It also allows fighter types to effectively Quicken their actions, which gives them a badly needed leg up. The casters aren't getting anything they didn't have already; they're just getting it cheaper on a limited basis.Yeah, casters already had quicken rods. But it's still giving them something new, since Belt of Battle stacks with quicken rods. Now, instead of casting two spells per round, you can cast three.

Cuddly
2008-02-15, 07:32 PM
Yeah, casters already had quicken rods. But it's still giving them something new, since Belt of Battle stacks with quicken rods. Now, instead of casting two spells per round, you can cast three.

With another round, can't you cast another quickened spell (so 4/"round")?

Keld Denar
2008-02-15, 08:13 PM
With another round, can't you cast another quickened spell (so 4/"round")?

I personally don't think so, and that adds a little balance. It adds an extra full round action, which according to the PHB can be used to make a full attack, activate a feat which requires a full round action, do a charge, or cast a full round spell (not a 1 round spell though). It doesn't give you an extra turn, which would have a swift action tacked onto it.

Honestly, like someone above said, its a 1/3 greater rod of quicken that also grants a move action and a +2 init bonus. Its good, but no more OP than the rod was, just accessable sooner. Wizards have been casting 2 spells a round with quicken since 3.0 came out, and this just lets them use 2 high level spells instead of 1 high and 1 low.

John Campbell
2008-02-15, 08:15 PM
The answer: You get MORE belts. One belt per encounter is a nice number.
Isn't there some language in there about having to wear it for a day or so before the effects kick in? I don't have MIC handy to check, but most of the other sharply-limited slot-occupying items have something like that.

If it doesn't, it certainly should.


Yeah, casters already had quicken rods. But it's still giving them something new, since Belt of Battle stacks with quicken rods. Now, instead of casting two spells per round, you can cast three.
Like I said, I don't have MIC handy to check, but I'm almost positive that the belt of battle takes a swift action to activate. That means it doesn't stack with Quickening, which also uses your only swift action. Getting a full-round action from it doesn't give you another swift action.

Cuddly
2008-02-17, 08:52 PM
I personally don't think so, and that adds a little balance. It adds an extra full round action, which according to the PHB can be used to make a full attack, activate a feat which requires a full round action, do a charge, or cast a full round spell (not a 1 round spell though). It doesn't give you an extra turn, which would have a swift action tacked onto it.

Honestly, like someone above said, its a 1/3 greater rod of quicken that also grants a move action and a +2 init bonus. Its good, but no more OP than the rod was, just accessable sooner. Wizards have been casting 2 spells a round with quicken since 3.0 came out, and this just lets them use 2 high level spells instead of 1 high and 1 low.

Except at 12k, you can get 3 of them, which is the same cost as a MINOR metamagic rod of quicken. 'Course, you couldn't use them all in the same battle (unless you cheesed out and wore them all, then took them off as you used them).

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-17, 10:56 PM
noob garbage

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-17, 10:59 PM
It depends on how you define "cheese."

The Fleshraker dinosaur is quite powerful, but isn't game-breaking. I remember th e last time I wild shaped into a Fleshraker Dinosaur - even augmented by VoP, I died within several rounds against the boss encounter of two trolls. Cheese shouldn't be able to falter that easily.

Nor can the Belt of Battle be cheese on its own; if you are doing something crazy to begin with it can really help the combo but in normal circumstances the benefits of one full-round action really aren't that spectacular.Why were you shaped into a fleshraker? Unless you can have 4 on the battlefield, they're not broken enough to be worth the wildshape. Pick something...bigger.:smallcool:

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-17, 11:02 PM
level 5 druid

tyckspoon
2008-02-17, 11:14 PM
level 5 druid

Cheese doesn't have to be universally applicable to be cheese. In the case of Fleshraker vs. Troll, you're attacking something with an excellent Fort save (so not good odds on poisoning it to the ground), high Strength, and better size (so bad odds of knocking it over with your charge.) Wildshaping into a fleshraker is still cheesy, especially at low levels, but that doesn't mean it should automatically win every situation. Wildshaping and going into direct combat tends to be a bad choice against giants.

ChaosDefender24
2008-02-17, 11:26 PM
Oh. I stand corrected for both animal and belt