Sith names

[SolkaTruesilver]

I read somewhere that the Sith names are supposed to mean something. For example, Darth Scion (KOTOR2)'s name (Scion) means "Son", which is explained by the fact that he is Darth Traya's student.

Darth Nihilus, easy too. Nihil is the greek (latin?) root of "nothingness", which kinda describe well the character (or the lack of).

Darth Sidious, I get too. "Secede", because he will plan the overthrow of the Republic.

Darth Maul is pretty hard to not understand. The name is as subtle as the character.

But... Vader? Traya? Malak? Revan? tell me if there are other names I forgot to say, and their meaning.

[Serenity]

Sidious is probably meant to evoke 'insidious' meaning, essentially, sinister. With the lack of prefix perhaps referencing the fact that he was leading a dual life, and trying to appear benign.

Vader is Dutch for 'Father', so those crazy Hollanders probably weren't all that surprised at the end of ESB. Might also be meant to evoke 'invader'.

Traya=Betrayal.

Malak and Revan, though were just their awesome-sounding names. Traya and her apprentices were the first generation of Sith to officially take on aliases instead of just slapping Darth onto their names.

[MeklorIlavator]

Well, I believe that Vader is father in dutch for Father, so that's seems to have been a bit of for shadowing.

[Mr. Scaly]

Malak=malik, which I think means 'leader' or something in Egyptian...maybe Arabic.

[Moff Chumley]

Revan=Revanent? Which sounds vaugely threatening? :smallconfused:

[SolkaTruesilver]

I think you touched something. Revant.. revenant.. in french, a Revenant comes from "revient", which means "come back"

Again, it was clearly foreshadowing. Everybody said "the guy is dead". Yhea, sure..

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Revan=Revanent? Which sounds vaugely threatening? :smallconfused:
Arent Revanents usually defenders or heralds of something?

[Mewtarthio]

Revenants are basically zombies. Sometimes they're more like vampires, but they're essentially reanimated corpses. So, yes, Darth Revan's name is meaningful.

Granted, my first thought when I see the word "revenant" is the Other's thralls in Girl Genius.

[North]

What about Darth Cadeus then?

Spoiler about new books
Jacen Solo is Darth Cadeus

[FoE]

But... Vader? Traya? Malak? Revan? tell me if there are other names I forgot to say, and their meaning.

It's because they're all 'a' names. 'A' names always go well with evil characters. Take 'Satan' for example. Or 'Dracula.' :smallwink:

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Actually Draculas name actually comes from satan. In the Transylvanian language, Dracul means "Devil" and adding an "a" to the name in the manner done with Dracula means "son of" So Draculas name literally means "son of the devil" :smallbiggrin:

[Mr. Scaly]

I think it's spelled Caedus.

[Jensik]

Well, I believe that Vader is father in dutch for Father, so that's seems to have been a bit of for shadowing.

That would be correct. Though if you want to be picky (and I do) the pronunciation is vastly different.

[Serenity]

He became dark because he thought it was necessary to save the galaxy right? Perhaps it's meant to evoke the Caudaceus, a symbol of healing...but originally from trickster god Hermes, and involving snakes.

[SilentNight]

I read somewhere that the Sith names are supposed to mean something. For example, Darth Scion (KOTOR2)'s name (Scion) means "Son", which is explained by the fact that he is Darth Traya's student.



I think Darth means dark in some language so Vader would be "Dark Father" Originallity is not high on Lucas's resume, is it?


Arent Revanents usually defenders or heralds of something?

Like Solika said, they almost literally mean "come back". I think they are like zombie ghosts. The only thing animating them is revenge for their murder most foul.

EDIT:
It's because they're all 'a' names. 'A' names always go well with evil characters. Take 'Satan' for example. Or 'Dracula.'
Or Asmodeus, Machievellian, Jarlaxle:smallwink: .

[North]

Hmm you might have somthing there with the Hermes.

It did evoke the medicalness to be, which just made it even harder to take him seriously.

[TheRiov]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Sith

Wikipedia discusses his name in some detail (Caedus) You also have a large number of others:

Darth Plagueis at has the power to 'create life' per Sidious, so at least some biological powers...
Sidious is probably a corruption of "insidious"
Darth Bane easy enough.
Darth Traya obviously "Dark Betrayer"

etc

[Mewtarthio]

He became dark because he thought it was necessary to save the galaxy right? Perhaps it's meant to evoke the Caudaceus, a symbol of healing...but originally from trickster god Hermes, and involving snakes.

That'd make an interesting twist off his original name, which according to Wookipedia has something to do with healing.

[averagejoe]

The original two - Sidious and Vader - are just regular english words with "in" normally in front of them. I'm still waiting for an EU story involving Darths Stigator, Dustrial, Dickative, Volved, and Trinsic. :smallamused:

[Paragon Badger]

Revan = Revanchist.

French for Revenge, or somesuch.

[Icewalker]

Already beaten to it, vaguely, by Serenity at the beginning of the thread, but he really broke a great thing he had going with Darth Maul...

Darth Vader. Invader.
Darth Sidious. Insidious.

A very interesting pattern.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Revan and Malak, it should be noted, were there original names rather than aliases (it was the next generation of Sith Lords who started the tradition of pseudonyms)...however, I'm positive the writers still meant to attach meanings to the name, so carry on.

I agree with Revan suggesting revenant/revient/return, as well as suggesting the raven, a bird associated with both battle and prophecy/foresight/wisdom. Revan brought war to the Republic because he foresaw some kind of alien threat it would need to defend against; he was a herald of war.

Malak is tougher. It could be from Malachi (as in the Jewish prophet), which means roughly "[God's] messenger". There's also Moloch, the Hebrew name for particular demon or Phoenician god, which means "King".

[Ubiq]

I'm still waiting for an EU story involving Darths Stigator, Dustrial, Dickative, Volved, and Trinsic. :smallamused:

Don't forget about Darth Teriordesign, the most flamboyant of all Sith Lords.

[Ossian]

and what about Darth Agnan, Sith Lord of tumbling, wooing and fencing?

[Emperor Ing]

Everything you could ever want to know about sith lords you (probably) never new existed. (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/253327)

[TamerBill]

Revan and Malak, it should be noted, were there original names rather than aliases (it was the next generation of Sith Lords who started the tradition of pseudonyms)...however, I'm positive the writers still meant to attach meanings to the name, so carry on.

Nope, they retconned it in the comics. Malak was called Alek before he became a Sith. Alek Squinquargesimus (no, seriously).

Pre-Sith Revan is only ever referred to as 'The Revanchist', based on the French word for revange. In Basic is apparently means 'to take back land lost in a war', which is what Revan planned to do.

So yeah, they just keep pushing back the whole 'original Darth' thing.

[The_Snark]

The original two - Sidious and Vader - are just regular english words with "in" normally in front of them. I'm still waiting for an EU story involving Darths Stigator, Dustrial, Dickative, Volved, and Trinsic. :smallamused:

Paradoxically, this makes Darth Vulnerable a man to be feared.

[SolkaTruesilver]

and what about Darth Agnan, Sith Lord of tumbling, wooing and fencing?

My name is SolkaTruesilver, you've killed my reality, prepare to die.

MY NAME IS SOLKATRUESILVER, YOU'VE KILLED MY REALITY, PREPARE TO DIE!

[Ossian]

My name is SolkaTruesilver, you've killed my reality, prepare to die.

MY NAME IS SOLKATRUESILVER, YOU'VE KILLED MY REALITY, PREPARE TO DIE!

Ah, I feel bad now that I have another reality on my conscience, as much as that feat may have further improved my resumé.
Before you get to me though you'll have to talk with my menacing looking Sith Lord of Short Intimidating Looks..... Dart Aglance....

[SolkaTruesilver]

NOT LISTENING! You don't exist! Death Squads have been sent to your destination to process your!

[averagejoe]

and what about Darth Agnan, Sith Lord of tumbling, wooing and fencing?

Tumbling, fencing and wooing? I think I saw that movie. Didn't he have to match wits with Darth Concievable?

[Satyrquaze]

The original two - Sidious and Vader - are just regular english words with "in" normally in front of them. I'm still waiting for an EU story involving Darths Stigator, Dustrial, Dickative, Volved, and Trinsic. :smallamused:


Darth Flammable - was quite flammable...

Darth Congruous - was killed by his Master for acting strangely.

Darth Describable - was non-descript.

Darth Trepid - Got lost.

Darth Ept - was quickly replaced.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Nope, they retconned it in the comics. Malak was called Alek before he became a Sith. Alek Squinquargesimus (no, seriously).

Pre-Sith Revan is only ever referred to as 'The Revanchist', based on the French word for revange. In Basic is apparently means 'to take back land lost in a war', which is what Revan planned to do.

So yeah, they just keep pushing back the whole 'original Darth' thing.
Hm. They are at least still the first ones to take the "Darth" honorific, right?

Also, that name has just guaranteed I will never read the KOTOR comics, no matter how good they are.

[Zenos]

Actually Draculas name actually comes from satan. In the Transylvanian language, Dracul means "Devil" and adding an "a" to the name in the manner done with Dracula means "son of" So Draculas name literally means "son of the devil" :smallbiggrin:

I remember it as coming from the word "Draculea" which was the name "Dracul", meaning dragon, with an added "-ea", which means son, thus meaning son of dragon". Where did you get the thing about devil from?

[Closet_Skeleton]

I remember it as coming from the word "Draculea" which was the name "Dracul", meaning dragon, with an added "-ea", which means son, thus meaning son of dragon". Where did you get the thing about devil from?

Dracul mainly means Dragon but can mean devil. The meaning of devil is derived from the dragon-like devil St. Michael kills. Devil is the meaning that Bram Stoker intended however. In the case of Vlad Tepes, Draculea means 'son of the dragon', but Dracula's backstory conflicts with him being Vlad Tepes (but Professor Van Helsing claims that Dracula is the historic Turk killing one one, so the backstory discrepancy could just be due to lack of research).


Revan = Revanchist.

French for Revenge, or somesuch.

Revanchism can be less personal than Revenge, or so I think.

Malak can mean "bad jaw" but apparently that wasn't intended :smalltongue:


Darth Flammable - was quite flammable...

Except inflammable means "can be inflamed", flammable means nothing and was created out of a misconception.

[Telonius]

The original two - Sidious and Vader - are just regular english words with "in" normally in front of them. I'm still waiting for an EU story involving Darths Stigator, Dustrial, Dickative, Volved, and Trinsic. :smallamused:

There is a great Sith tradition of this. The first Sith Lord to do take that naming route was Darth Vincible, who was never defeated in battle. Darth Vulnerable, his apprentice, succeeded by luring his enemies into a false sense of security. However, there were some high-profile failures after him. Darth Decisive was never able to settle on which of his predecessors' strategies to use. His successor, Darth Competent, never accomplished much. The Sith's fortunes steeply declined under his watch. That Sith succession hit its low point with Darth Continent (the less is said about him, the better).

[Mornir]

I think Darth means dark in some language so Vader would be "Dark Father" Originallity is not high on Lucas's resume, is it?



Like Solika said, they almost literally mean "come back". I think they are like zombie ghosts. The only thing animating them is revenge for their murder most foul.

EDIT:
Or Asmodeus, Machievellian, Jarlaxle:smallwink: .

OR: Jar Jar Binks?

[Bavarian itP]

What about Darth Cadeus then?

Spoiler about new books
Jacen Solo is Darth Cadeus

This has to be the most uncreative "plot twist" ever.

[SolkaTruesilver]

This has to be the most uncreative "plot twist" ever.

well...


Darth Caedus : Fool. Luke never told you what happened to your son..
Han Solo : He told me ennough! He told me you killed him!
Darth Caedus: Han, I am your son.
Han Solo: NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Prince Gimli]

If that spoiler is a real quote, it is both very funny and very sad :smallamused:

[Turcano]

I'm just waiting for Darth Badguy. You know, so people can figure out that he's a villain. Who does bad things to people.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

You know who I'm waiting for? Darth Sane, if you haven't figured it out yet, he's CRAAAZY!

[Mr._Blinky]

You know who I'm waiting for? Darth Sane, if you haven't figured it out yet, he's CRAAAZY!

GODDAMMIT, I WAS ABOUT TO SAY THAT ONE!

But what about:

Darth Secure (had a safety-blanket)
Darth Sensitive (was slaughtered for making fun of his master's weight problems)
Darth Significant (no one really cared about him)
Darth Sincere (compulsive liar)
Darth Stability (terrible saber-fighter, due to constant falling into deep pits)
Darth Subordinate (killed by his master for talking back too much)
Darth Sufferable (was killed for being just plain annoying)
Darth Sufficient (...was not sufficient)

And that's just the "S"s I could find...

[Mewtarthio]

Of course, it's really gonna be badass when the new Sith Lord is a giant spider imbued with sentience and the Force via Sith Alchemy: The mighty Darth Vertebrate! It's too bad General Grievous already did the "weilding four lightsabers at once" schtick... but could General Grievous spin webs? I think not!

And then there's Darth Digestion. We don't like to talk about him.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh no.. what have I done? I spawned thousands of Sith names into reality.. I now hate my creation..

Now I know how God feels...

[Thanatos 51-50]

He became dark because he thought it was necessary to save the galaxy right? Perhaps it's meant to evoke the Caudaceus, a symbol of healing...but originally from trickster god Hermes, and involving snakes.

Correction!
The Caudeaceus was owned by Apollo, originally, as a God of Light, Healing and Archery. Did you read that "Healing" bit? After Hermes (Also the god of Theives) stole a bunch of Apollo's Cattle, he basically gave them back in echange for said staff, and thats why most people know it as "the Staff/Wand of Hermes".

Snakes were often used in Greek mythology in order to symolise Life and Death, and as a Symbol of Apollo.
As an example:
<Truncated version of a greek myth below.>
the Blind Seer of Odeipous Rex fame (Telemachus, I believe his name was). Witnessed two snakes mateing, and struck them withhis staff, whereupon he was turned into a woman. He lived happily as a woman for many years, even taking a husband and bearing children.
Later on in his (her) life, (s)he witnessed the mating snakes, and again struk them, whereupon (s)he was turned male. And he lived a happy life, even taking a wife and having children with her.

One day, Hera and Zeus were having an argument over which gender sex felt better to, and so they summoned our Seer (who had been both, and was not yet a seer) friend, how sided with Zeus in claiming females liked it more.
Enraged, Hera struck him blind.
Feeling sorry, but unable to do the work of another God, Zeus granted him great INsight into the ways of all things, and tada, a Seer is born.
[/greekmythologyrant] [/nitpick]
Any disputes with the above can be solved with a simple Summon Rogue spell :smallamused:

[Paragon Badger]

You'd think Hera would be smarter than to argue with Zeus about anything sex-related, considering he once turned into a swan to get with a really eco-friendy chick.

[Closet_Skeleton]

The Caudeaceus was owned by Apollo, originally, as a God of Light, Healing and Archery. Did you read that "Healing" bit? After Hermes (Also the god of Theives) stole a bunch of Apollo's Cattle, he basically gave them back in echange for said staff, and thats why most people know it as "the Staff/Wand of Hermes".

Aesclepius is the god of healing, who also has a snake staff. Apollo just started absorbing more and more attributes from other gods. Apollo has also been god of prophecy, music, the sun and plague.


the Blind Seer of Odeipous Rex fame (Telemachus, I believe his name was)

Teiresias. Also, Oedipus Tyranus is more acurate (not useful nitpick).

[KindaChang]

I think it's spelled Caedus.

If the pronunciation is similiar to caesium, (see zee um) then it'd be pronounced say-duhs. Sadist.

[Ossian]

A holocron mentioned Darth Stead, famous for his creative thinking and Darth Fectious, who just killed scores by breathing on them.

Even less know is Darth Fantry, a valiant footsoldier.

[Logic]

Actually Draculas name actually comes from satan. In the Transylvanian language, Dracul means "Devil" and adding an "a" to the name in the manner done with Dracula means "son of" So Draculas name literally means "son of the devil" :smallbiggrin:

Where did you get that information? Dracul meant "the dragon," (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dracul) not the devil.

EDIT: Though, in modern Romainian, dracul does mean "the devil," so you were not far off.

On Topic:
I always interpreted that Sith names were a mutilated word that in english, has very negative connotations.

For example, Revan could be revenge, Malak could be malice, Bandon (Darth Malak's apprentice, if you don't all remember) could be abandon. Some are not even altered, Maul being a very good example of this.

[Timberwolf]

I heard somewhere that Revan = rivan or schism to those (like me) who didn't know what it meant.

[Ebaine Vulkarn]

Malak most probably comes from the west-semitic root MLK (vowels act different in semitic) from which stem the Hebrew Melech and the Arabic Malik, both of which mean king.

[cody.burton]

What about Darth Cadeus then?


I haven't read the books, but the verb caedo in latin means to cut, slay, kill. Seems appropriate for a Sith.

[Mewtarthio]

You'd think Hera would be smarter than to argue with Zeus about anything sex-related, considering he once turned into a swan to get with a really eco-friendy chick.

And a bull. Don't forget the bull. And then there's the girl (Io) that he turned into a cow. I have this theory that most of Greek mythology is actually fetishistic fan fiction that got really popular.

[Mr._Blinky]

Teiresias. Also, Oedipus Tyranus is more acurate (not useful nitpick).

I think you're right that it was Teiresias (also of fame from Homer's Odyssey). Telemachus was, IIRC, Oddyseus' son.

[averagejoe]

I'm just waiting for Darth Badguy. You know, so people can figure out that he's a villain. Who does bad things to people.

Well, we came pretty close with General Grevious, who's basically an honorary sith. I remember hearing it said that he, "Should have just been called Stalin McHitler and quit the pretense."

[LurkerInPlayground]

Revan=Revanent? Which sounds vaugely threatening? :smallconfused:
Revan = Rav-en


rav·en2 /ˈrævən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rav-uhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used without object)
1. to seek plunder or prey.
2. to eat or feed voraciously or greedily: to raven like an animal.
3. to have a ravenous appetite.
–verb (used with object)
4. to seize as spoil or prey.
5. to devour voraciously.
–noun
6. rapine; robbery.
7. plunder or prey.


To slay and raven across the galaxy.

Which is essentially what he did.

[blakyoshi7]

Darth Describable - was non-descript.


I think you've forgotten about his apprentice, Darth Sipid.
But then again, I suppose I can't really blame you- he was a rather forgettable character.

[TamerBill]

I heard somewhere that Revan = rivan or schism to those (like me) who didn't know what it meant.

Why don't people read the threads they post in? Why, world, why?

[The_Snark]

Well, we came pretty close with General Grevious, who's basically an honorary sith. I remember hearing it said that he, "Should have just been called Stalin McHitler and quit the pretense."

Nonsense. But you know, I always wondered why they called him by his first name. If they were addressing him properly, he should have been General Harm.

Grievous B. Harm, yep. Honorary Dark Lord, or at least that's what they let him think.

[Paragon Badger]

Don't be hatin', Grevious rocked.

Just a little vengeful emo, that's all. :smallamused:

[averagejoe]

Grevious most certainly did not rock. He was basically a boss fight. You know, defeat his primary weapons, then chase him a bit until his chest opens up for no good reason and you can shoot his weak point. They all but made him flash a buncha colors when he was low on hp.

Plus, there's no concievable way he should be any sort of challenge for a jedi. Had they heard of force crush? Or even force push? Telekinisis? Any sort of ranged advantage versus someone who can't counter it?

[Paragon Badger]

Grevious most certainly did not rock. He was basically a boss fight. You know, defeat his primary weapons, then chase him a bit until his chest opens up for no good reason and you can shoot his weak point. They all but made him flash a buncha colors when he was low on hp.

Plus, there's no concievable way he should be any sort of challenge for a jedi. Had they heard of force crush? Or even force push? Telekinisis? Any sort of ranged advantage versus someone who can't counter it?

...Errr.. Clone Wars-era Grevious.

The movies did make him pretty turn out pretty lame. :smallfrown:

And Mace Windu did collapse Grevious' lungs at a distance, resulting in the cough. :smalltongue:

[averagejoe]

Apperantly he didn't force crush them well enough... :smalltongue:

[North]

Don't be hatin', Grevious rocked.

Just a little vengeful emo, that's all. :smallamused:

Yeah. No. As others have said. Scary deadly in the Animated. Weak Sauce in the movies.


They all but made him flash a buncha colors when he was low on hp.

This made me laugh out loud. :smallbiggrin:

[The Rose Dragon]

Malak may also come from the arabic word "malek", which means, basically, angel (as well as, apparently, king).

[Ossian]

It's more like semitic people (those of them who spoke arabic at least) referred to celestial beings as "kings" (malik (sing) or muluk (pl)). Whereas we referred to them as "messengers" (Angheloi).

O.

[Shraik]

I believe Malak means "power" or something along those lines in some language. Another Origin. For those who have Read Path to Destruction, Darth Bane's name originates from his childhood, where his father constantly referred to young Bane as the bane of his existence, henceforth he became Darth Bane. Also, Darth Zannah's name originates from her actual name, Zannah. Darth Krayt's name originates from the fact(SPOILERS)
Darth Krayt's name originates from the fact that he is actually A'sharad Hett, who is a human raised Tusken Raider. Krayt Dragons play a large role in Tusken Raider society and are feared throughout Tattoine. This shows how Darth Krayt is strong and should be feared, like the Almighty Krayt Dragon

As for the Grievous Topic, he should have won against Obi-wan. Obi-wan had dumb luck, thats it. General Grievous defeated plenty of Jedi who were much more skilled then Obi-wan at lightsaber combat. He Easily Defeated both Aayla Secura and Shaak Ti, both much more experienced lightsaber combatants then Obi-wan. Believe it or not, Obi-wan was one of the lesser lightsaber combatants on the council. General Grievous was the best natural lightsaber combatants in the galaxy(for D6 system users, 15d lightsaber), The only reason Obi-wan won was because of the force.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Malak may also come from the arabic word "malek", which means, basically, angel (as well as, apparently, king).

Probably - I know that מלך , or 'melek', is 'king' in Hebrew.

[Closet_Skeleton]

As for the Grievous Topic, he should have won against Obi-wan. Obi-wan had dumb luck, thats it. General Grievous defeated plenty of Jedi who were much more skilled then Obi-wan at lightsaber combat. He Easily Defeated both Aayla Secura and Shaak Ti, both much more experienced lightsaber combatants then Obi-wan. Believe it or not, Obi-wan was one of the lesser lightsaber combatants on the council. General Grievous was the best natural lightsaber combatants in the galaxy(for D6 system users, 15d lightsaber), The only reason Obi-wan won was because of the force.

Apparently Obi-wan defeated Grievous because his fighting style was good against multiple attacks. He wasn't the best duelist but he was the best duelist to fight Grievous.

[TheRiov]

Apparently Obi-wan defeated Grievous because his fighting style was good against multiple attacks. He wasn't the best duelist but he was the best duelist to fight Grievous.

According to the novelization, Obi-Wan was considered one of the finest swordsmen in the order, particularly at Form III. While he was not an offensive swordsman, his defense was unrivaled--Even Mace Windu comments that Obi-Wan is not just A master of Soresu, but THE master.

A fact that becomes evident in his battle against Grievous, while defending against *4* simultanious saber attacks he is still able to make his parries so effective that they sever limbs.

The novelization makes it clear that in the years between Ep 2 & 3 Obi-wan became MUCH more adept and in fact, Darth Tyranus is shocked to find that what he thinks is him playing with Obi-Wan and Anikin, the reverse it true--that their skill has grown so that not only are they obviously better than him, but they were able to create the appearance of being overmatched while lureing him out of position.

Tyranus was more potent with his telekinesis and thus defeated Obi-Wan, but his swordsmanship was more than sufficient.

[Mewtarthio]

As for the Grievous Topic, he should have won against Obi-wan. Obi-wan had dumb luck, thats it. General Grievous defeated plenty of Jedi who were much more skilled then Obi-wan at lightsaber combat. He Easily Defeated both Aayla Secura and Shaak Ti, both much more experienced lightsaber combatants then Obi-wan. Believe it or not, Obi-wan was one of the lesser lightsaber combatants on the council. General Grievous was the best natural lightsaber combatants in the galaxy(for D6 system users, 15d lightsaber), The only reason Obi-wan won was because of the force.

...That's, er, kinda the entire schtick of the Jedi. :biggrin:

[Mornir]

According to the novelization, Obi-Wan was considered one of the finest swordsmen in the order, particularly at Form III. While he was not an offensive swordsman, his defense was unrivaled--Even Mace Windu comments that Obi-Wan is not just A master of Soresu, but THE master.

But Mace Windu was just Jules Winnfield in disguise.
Walkin' da Earth.

[averagejoe]

As for the Grievous Topic, he should have won against Obi-wan. Obi-wan had dumb luck, thats it. General Grievous defeated plenty of Jedi who were much more skilled then Obi-wan at lightsaber combat. He Easily Defeated both Aayla Secura and Shaak Ti, both much more experienced lightsaber combatants then Obi-wan. Believe it or not, Obi-wan was one of the lesser lightsaber combatants on the council. General Grievous was the best natural lightsaber combatants in the galaxy(for D6 system users, 15d lightsaber), The only reason Obi-wan won was because of the force.

So, wait, why didn't the other jedi masters use the force instead of... dying? Robot or cyborg, he's still extremely susceptible to being lifted up and dropped off something high/dropped in something nasty/having his lightsabers telekinetically taken away. I mean, it makes sense why jedi mostly don't use the force against dark jedi - because the dark jedi have basically the same abilities, and it would be useless. I understand why they don't use them for the most part against mooks - because you really don't need to. I don't, however, understand why any, presumably intelligent, being with telekinetic abilities should loose to a robot without telekinetic abilities, superior fighter or not. Mace Windu should have crushed his lungs in the first place, not the last.

[Paragon Badger]

They had no time to.

Unlike in the movie, Grevious gave his victims NO time to react. He was rather cowardly (he had to be.) and only attacked when he had the element of surprise and could negate the jedi's ranged attacks.

In his introduction, he jumps on a Jedi from a hidden position, crushing the shaggy-lookalike with his feet. He then flees, out of sight.

A short time later, he jumps down in the middle of a group of jedi and does his lightsaber-merry-go-round of death routine to fend off the Jedi's attack, killing one. He snaps the neck of another jedi in his claw, tosses that one aside, then grabs Aayla Secura and Ki-Adi-Mundi in his claws, tossing them across the room. Grevious grabs Ki-Adi-Mundi's lightsaber in his foot, and fights Shaak Ti in one-on-one combat. After a short time, he slashes her non-fatally, but enough to put her out of commision. He turns his attention to a groggy Ki-Adi-Mundi.

Ki-Adi-Mundi force grabs a lightsaber from Grevious's belt and ignites it to defend himself. Grevious ignites the lightsaber in his foot and lunges at Ki-Adi-Mundi. A squad Clone Commandos arrive as Grevious disarms Ki-Adi-Mundi. He flees as they open fire. Grevious runs up the wall and drops into the clone trooper's formation from up above, killing four. The nearby LAAT opens fire on Grevious, and he runs away. The remaining Jedi, badly wounded, get into the LAAT as Grevious pockets the lightsaber of one of the victims.

This all happened in little under 5 minutes.

Later on, the Jedi get wise and resort to using their powers against him more often. At least, when they have the chance to.

Grevious meets Windu, who wastes no time and uses crush as an opening move. Grevious flees.

[Nevrmore]

So, wait, why didn't the other jedi masters use the force instead of... dying? Robot or cyborg, he's still extremely susceptible to being lifted up and dropped off something high/dropped in something nasty/having his lightsabers telekinetically taken away. I mean, it makes sense why jedi mostly don't use the force against dark jedi - because the dark jedi have basically the same abilities, and it would be useless. I understand why they don't use them for the most part against mooks - because you really don't need to. I don't, however, understand why any, presumably intelligent, being with telekinetic abilities should loose to a robot without telekinetic abilities, superior fighter or not. Mace Windu should have crushed his lungs in the first place, not the last.
Have you watched Clone Wars?

They try to use their force powers against him.

A lot.

Grievous is so ungodly fast that he can dodge force crushed and force lifts before they even get to him. He can easily deflect anything force thrown at him, and even if you try to get him from all sides he does his little Whirlybird maneuver.

[Shraik]

Take a cyborg, Put them on speed, Pump them with Steiroids, Give them the blood of a jedi, Tweak their Brain a bit to make it Harder, Better, Faster, and Stronger. WALAA!! You know have General Grievous. He enjoys long walks on the jedis' corpses, watching things burn like a sunset, and killing all who oppose him. He comes special equipped with performance enhancing brain modules and a completely cybernetic muscular, and nervous system. For all the Confedaracy of Independant System's Jedi Killing Needs!:smallbiggrin:--b

[averagejoe]

They had no time to.

No time to what? Lift up their hands and think? I'll grant that copious amounts of sneakiness can counter copious amounts of TK, but Jedi get the precognition as well, to the point of being able to block blaster bolts. (And just try saying THAT five times fast. :smalltongue: ) I mean, one of them had time to force grab a lightsaber. Why not crush him instead? Why was he able to defend (or prevent) multiple force attacks from multiple jedi? I mean, he's fast, but he still has a very finite reach. Grevious may be an uber fast robot, but Jedi are still fast enough to be able to use swords in an age where guns are cheap and readily available. (Relatively speaking, that is.) It seems like between the lot of them, one should have the time to think at Grevious really hard.


Have you watched Clone Wars?

They try to use their force powers against him.

A lot.

Grievous is so ungodly fast that he can dodge force crushed and force lifts before they even get to him. He can easily deflect anything force thrown at him, and even if you try to get him from all sides he does his little Whirlybird maneuver.

Now, hold on a second. That sounds really fishy. I've never heard of one's spacial position having any effect on force abilities used against one. I mean, it seems really wierd that anyone should be able to dodge a telekinetic effect. To my knowledge, lifting something isn't lifting the air or space or whatever around it, it's lifting the object itself. Also, to my knowledge, the effects are instantaneous. I've never heard of them traveling in some wavelike manner or taking any time at all to "Get to him." Now, maybe I'm wrong; I haven't read any EU stuff since I was in middle school. However, someone ordering bits of you to go somewhere with their mind does not seem dodgeable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, it just seems really strange to me that a robot (cyborg, whatever) should be any sort of threat to trained, competent Jedi masters, however fast he is.

[Logic]

Why did Grevious defeat those Jedi so easily? Because it makes for a better story. Discounting that it is not entirely consistant with all the other expanded universe, it boils down to the fact that the Jedi are Super-ninjas that do not alway fall prey to the inverse-ninja-law. (http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1199) Having an opponent that could defeat them makes sense if the clone wars were to last more than a few months. With an army of precognitive generals, the Clone Wars would have only really lasted as long as it would take to travel to the planets that needed conquering. Unless there was an opposing General that could go toe-to-toe with the Jedi.

[The John]

Dracul means "Devil" and adding an "a" to the name in the manner done with Dracula means "son of" So Draculas name literally means "son of the devil"

Dracul means Dragon and Draculea means son of Dragon. The E dimminished for a better flow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draculea

[Lord_Asmodeus]

"Dragon" and "Devil" were pretty much the same. And Dracula's name was meant to refer to the Order of the Dragon, to which his Vlad II Dracul belonged. The vampire (and presumably Vlad the Impaler) were referred to as Dracula because "Dragon" and "Devil" were basically the same word, and he was considered the son of the devil (for rather obvious reasons) and for the vampire this part of myth was rather more literal.

[Nevrmore]

Now, hold on a second. That sounds really fishy. I've never heard of one's spacial position having any effect on force abilities used against one. I mean, it seems really wierd that anyone should be able to dodge a telekinetic effect. To my knowledge, lifting something isn't lifting the air or space or whatever around it, it's lifting the object itself. Also, to my knowledge, the effects are instantaneous. I've never heard of them traveling in some wavelike manner or taking any time at all to "Get to him." Now, maybe I'm wrong; I haven't read any EU stuff since I was in middle school. However, someone ordering bits of you to go somewhere with their mind does not seem dodgeable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, it just seems really strange to me that a robot (cyborg, whatever) should be any sort of threat to trained, competent Jedi masters, however fast he is.
As far as I know it's never explicitly stated how fast force powers travel, but given the fact that several times in Clone Wars do they show a character thrusting out a hand, then show Grievous jumping out the way and having the space where he had been occupying collapse in on itself, it seems that the theory that the Force emanates from the Jedi holds more water than it being an instantaneous maneuver.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Why did Grevious defeat those Jedi so easily? Because it makes for a better story.

Or because Jedi aren't and shouldn't be all that fanboys have them cracked up to be.

As Qui Gon Jinn says in Episode one "Jedi are not invincable". Except I can't actually quote Phantom Menance because I thought it sucked and only watched it once.

[averagejoe]

Or because Jedi aren't and shouldn't be all that fanboys have them cracked up to be.

As Qui Gon Jinn says in Episode one "Jedi are not invincable". Except I can't actually quote Phantom Menance because I thought it sucked and only watched it once.

The thing is, though, I'm really not a jedi fanboy. I understand the necessity of an enemy which can challenge them, this just seems a rather contrived way to do it. I won't actually call shenanigans unless I actually get the urge to look up The Clone Wars and watch it, but it honestly sounds to me like Grevious had a buncha plot armor. Or, at least, I haven't heard anything that convinces me otherwise. It wouldn't even be that bad, but being able to dodge being telekinisised just feels really dumb, however canonical it is.

[KindaChang]

Nonsense. But you know, I always wondered why they called him by his first name. If they were addressing him properly, he should have been General Harm.

Grievous B. Harm, yep. Honorary Dark Lord, or at least that's what they let him think.

Grievous B. Harm?

That's about up there with the Andromeda character Gengis Stalin. (He's said to be a delightful conversationalist)

[Tyrant]

Having an opponent that could defeat them makes sense if the clone wars were to last more than a few months. With an army of precognitive generals, the Clone Wars would have only really lasted as long as it would take to travel to the planets that needed conquering. Unless there was an opposing General that could go toe-to-toe with the Jedi.

Like Count Dooku? Or more importantly, Darth Sidious. The guy masterminding both sides of the war and eluding the Jedi's Sith radar. They are probably just the guys to do it. They also had help from several minor dark Jedi and Sith wannabes like Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, and Sev'rance Tann. Not to mention the droid army which numbered a quadrillion I believe. Also, I believe in Attack of the Clones the Jedi mention that their ability to foresee the future has been impaired.

[Lord_Asmodeus]

The thing is, though, I'm really not a jedi fanboy. I understand the necessity of an enemy which can challenge them, this just seems a rather contrived way to do it. I won't actually call shenanigans unless I actually get the urge to look up The Clone Wars and watch it, but it honestly sounds to me like Grevious had a buncha plot armor. Or, at least, I haven't heard anything that convinces me otherwise. It wouldn't even be that bad, but being able to dodge being telekinisised just feels really dumb, however canonical it is.

Grievous was reputed as the most powerful and skillful lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, and he was born with the most innate talent for it. He was an extremely deadly combatant, and thinking he had a lot of plot armor when because he could beat jedi just sounds ignorant to me. And the reason he could "dodge being telekenisised" was because the way it worked. It wasnt instant, and he had fast enough reflexes to act before it happened.

[averagejoe]

Grievous was reputed as the most powerful and skillful lightsaber duelist in the galaxy, and he was born with the most innate talent for it. He was an extremely deadly combatant, and thinking he had a lot of plot armor when because he could beat jedi just sounds ignorant to me. And the reason he could "dodge being telekenisised" was because the way it worked. It wasnt instant, and he had fast enough reflexes to act before it happened.

No, I get the reason he could dodge it, it's just that...

Aw, forget it, I'll just look up the fight on the youtubes.

...

You know, it's worse than I thought. I mean, he isn't even that fast, or that good a saber fighter, it's just that the jedi for some reason spend a buncha time standing around being useless. Further, even if TK isn't instantaneous, one only needs to watch the movies to see that it's faster than they showed there. The problem is that forehead guy sent a shockwave of air at Grievous for some reason instead of TKing Grievous himself.

[WalkingTarget]

I agree with Joe on that. The point isn't that there's a delay between beginning your force-push or whatever and the effect. It's that if you're moving something with your mind, you're targeting the object itself, not just it's location in space (i.e. it shouldn't have to be aimed and therefore shouldn't be dodgeable).

The force is an energy field between all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together. If I want to move you, I'd do something to the Force binding me to you, not between me and the spot where you were standing a minute ago.

I enjoyed watching the Clone Wars, but I also didn't expect them to be terribly "realistic" or logical. They were just fun.

[KindaChang]

I agree with Joe on that. The point isn't that there's a delay between beginning your force-push or whatever and the effect. It's that if you're moving something with your mind, you're targeting the object itself, not just it's location in space (i.e. it shouldn't have to be aimed and therefore shouldn't be dodgeable).

The force is an energy field between all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together. If I want to move you, I'd do something to the Force binding me to you, not between me and the spot where you were standing a minute ago.

I enjoyed watching the Clone Wars, but I also didn't expect them to be terribly "realistic" or logical. They were just fun.

It seems to me that the idea of Grevious being able to dodge TK attacks comes from the idea introduced (to me at least) in the Black Fleet Crisis. That TK with the Force is like using a lever. You can't just push, you need something to push against on both ends (thus why Luke couldn't forcepush on the ship he was inside of)

[WalkingTarget]

Well, my knowledge of Star Wars is limited to the films, the Clone Wars cartoons, and the various games available for the N64 (edit - and what I've picked up from hanging out with/listening to/reading posts written by people who have read a lot of EU stuff).

I'm fine with saying that the nature of the Force has drifted over time/media, and even that you need leverage (no making yourself fly with it), but the aiming requirement that has been introduced is what I (and it sounds like averagejoe) think is wonky.

[The_Snark]

It seems to me that the idea of Grevious being able to dodge TK attacks comes from the idea introduced (to me at least) in the Black Fleet Crisis. That TK with the Force is like using a lever. You can't just push, you need something to push against on both ends (thus why Luke couldn't forcepush on the ship he was inside of)

The solution to this problem is obvious, and even given to us directly by Leia. You get out and push. Heh, couldn't resist.

[Dervag]

As for the Grievous Topic, he should have won against Obi-wan. Obi-wan had dumb luck, thats it. General Grievous defeated plenty of Jedi who were much more skilled then Obi-wan at lightsaber combat. He Easily Defeated both Aayla Secura and Shaak Ti, both much more experienced lightsaber combatants then Obi-wan. Believe it or not, Obi-wan was one of the lesser lightsaber combatants on the council. General Grievous was the best natural lightsaber combatants in the galaxy(for D6 system users, 15d lightsaber), The only reason Obi-wan won was because of the force.The novelization of the movie suggests that on the contrary, Obi-Wan is an excellent swordsman. It's just that his style lends itself better to a fencing-style 'defend and wait for an opening' strategy. Which, against Grievous, was probably a good idea, because Grievous could attack so fast that it would be nearly impossible for a human being to avoid being killed by him. Force powers or no force powers, you can only move so fast. I suspect that the reason other masters ran into so much trouble against Grievous was that they simply had more trouble maintaining a defense, and so couldn't counterattack as effectively when the opportunity came.


But Mace Windu was just Jules Winnfield in disguise.
Walkin' da Earth.Or da Coruscant, as da case may be.

You know, that actually makes some sense.

But if so, it is an argument for Obi-Wan's strength. I mean, if Jules Winnfield says "I cannot kill this guy, but you can..." that's one heck of a job recommendation there. For he is the baddest... well, you know... in the valley. Except, possibly, for Obi-Wan Kenobi.


So, wait, why didn't the other jedi masters use the force instead of... dying? Robot or cyborg, he's still extremely susceptible to being lifted up and dropped off something high/dropped in something nasty/having his lightsabers telekinetically taken away. I mean, it makes sense why jedi mostly don't use the force against dark jedi - because the dark jedi have basically the same abilities, and it would be useless.

[quote]I understand why they don't use them for the most part against mooks - because you really don't need to. I don't, however, understand why any, presumably intelligent, being with telekinetic abilities should loose to a robot without telekinetic abilities, superior fighter or not. Mace Windu should have crushed his lungs in the first place, not the last.I think it's much harder to use Force abilities effectively against living beings, even ones who have little or no Force sensitivity of their own. I mean, we've really only seen genuine masters with considerable experience or great power use the Force against a living being.

Palpatine can use the Force to manipulate people, but he's... Palpatine. And he had at least a few decades of experience, being something like 45-50 years old even at the time of The Phantom Menace.

Dooku can use telekinesis to seize and throw even Force-adept Jedi, but he is a master with several decades of experience.

Darth Vader could force-choke people, but only when he was extremely angry.

Obi-Wan could use the Jedi mind whammy by the time of A New Hope, at which point he has several decades of experience.

These are all exceptionally powerful Jedi or Sith. Which explains why a normal Jedi knight wouldn't be able to use telekinesis to kill Grievous. For that matter, we don't really know what the telekinetic abilities of an average Jedi knight are. They may simply not have the control to destroy pieces of a battle droid.


No time to what? Lift up their hands and think? I'll grant that copious amounts of sneakiness can counter copious amounts of TK, but Jedi get the precognition as well, to the point of being able to block blaster bolts. (And just try saying THAT five times fast. :smalltongue: ) I mean, one of them had time to force grab a lightsaber. Why not crush him instead? Why was he able to defend (or prevent) multiple force attacks from multiple jedi? I mean, he's fast, but he still has a very finite reach. Grevious may be an uber fast robot, but Jedi are still fast enough to be able to use swords in an age where guns are cheap and readily available. (Relatively speaking, that is.) It seems like between the lot of them, one should have the time to think at Grevious really hard.I don't think Jedi normally think of force attacks as their first option. This may be because of Light Side Jedi training, which discourages you from using the Force as a weapon. Most of the aggressive Force use we've seen in the movies was by the Sith.

So most Jedi, when they see Grievous, will try to attack him with lightsabers. It's their natural response. If they have some time to think, they use the Force. But even with precognition, they still have to use their mind to figure out what to do, and in a sufficiently dangerous and threatening environment (such as anywhere in the vicinity of General Grievous), that's not going to be easy.

[Paragon Badger]

Also, I'd assume that force powers require concentration. Kind of hard when a four-armed whirling lightsaber-wielding maniacis is lunging at you. In fact, look at all the effort it takes Luke just to grab his saber at Hoth. Sure, he was a newb, but... :smalltongue:

Also, Grevious was very force sensitive. At least, what parts of him were organic. He may had a natural defense against some powers.

But we're WAY off topic. :P