REBORN! The Complete Necromancer Project Brainstorm v.5

[katarl]

IT LIVES!

Necromancers get a raw deal in dnd. Sure, we have LM's corpsecrafting tree, and HoH's dread necromancer, but considering it's such a staple of fantasy, necromancy really doesn't pull it's weight. It's the forgotten school in some ways, a few choice spells and tomb-tainted options are often the only taste characters get of the forbidden arts.

But that's not the kind of necromancy we know, the kind that Faustus could use to uncover all the world's secrets, or the Black Cauldrons' ability to conquer entire nations under the weight of a necromantic army. Novels and movies are replete with the hordes of the shambling dead, of powerful necromancers and forbidden secrets. Clearly we could do a little better than animate dead.

That's why I'd like to start the Complete Necromancer Project, to combine the very best necromancy homebrew into one big project, with the universal aim of making necromancers a little bit more necromantic, and to move away from the idea that if you want to control the hordes of undead, you just have to be a cleric.

***

I have a few ideas of my own. In true 'complete' series style, I have 3 base classes lined up, using the essence of life and death to transform, leech the life out of their enemies or master the mysteries of soul and spirit. I also want to update the corpsecrafting system, to organise the traits into schools, and simplify it to be workable in mainstream games.



Submit your ideas, your homebrew monsters, spells, feats, skills and classes, or comment on those already posted, so we can refine and balance them. If you have any questions, feel free to pm me.

[katarl]

HELPFUL SITES

ATHAS (http://www.athas.org/)

Contains rules for defiler necromancers, thinking zombies, dozens of new undead, a half-dozen undead templates and the excellent Royal Animator, for free on pdf.

Tome of Necromancy (http://bb.bbboy.net/thegamingden-viewthread?forum=1&thread=684)

It's highly opinionated, but K's Tome of Necromancy has a wealth of material for the prospective necromancer. Just don't expect your dm to allow it all.

Corpsecrafting Deluxe (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-57101.html)

My level based corpsecrafting rules.

Ultimate Corpsecrafting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59582)

My third, and probably best, foray into the corpsecrafting world.

Ravenloft: Fraternity of Shadows (http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html)

Not recent, but the undead sea scrolls may be of interest.

Complete Lich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570)

A set of rules by Maerok here on GitP to help develop lich characters. Contains lots of feats.

Dread Spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35052)

Dozens of new spells, and an improved fear system.

Damn Good Shop of the Damned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19507&highlight=maerok)

Rounded off with lots of evil-specific magic items for characters.

Unquiet Twilight (http://http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=801933)

The thirteenth tome of battle discipline. Fairly decent.

White Necromancy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=830680&highlight=necromancy)

Non-evil necromancy. Like anyone really needs that.

Why are undead evil? (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=923300&highlight=necromancy)

A discussion on undead and alignment.

A Unique way of looking at necromancer (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=789351&highlight=necromancy)

A discussion of necromantic theory. Geeky in the extreme- well worth looking into.

Ultimate Power (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=690264)

An unfinished ultimate necromancer class from Szatany.

Lich Progression (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a)

From the good people at wotc.

Necroscope (http://www.geocities.com/plutoreus/monster_new_classes.htm)

A rather uninspiring core class.

Demi Undead (http://www.geocities.com/plutoreus/monster_new_prestige_classes.htm)

And an equally uninspiring, but still mentionable prestige class.

Shadow Necromancy (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadow_Necromancy_(DnD_Spell))

A wiki post on undead illusions.

Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=599129)

Help with optimising your new necromancer.

Alcarin (http://www.alcarin.com/castle/)

A good collection of necromantic and ordinary homebrewed classes, spells, items, feats and monsters.

Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515)

Probably the best necromaster class yet, help is at hand for your dread necromancer.

Pimp my Zombie! (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=990429)

1001 ways they envision zombies in 4e.

Planewalker (http://www.planewalker.com/downloads/products/files/chapter3.pdf)

The Dustmen faction. Yep, undead sanitation engineers.

Undead Limbs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61372)

For those of you who want their own 'Thing'.

Nerull Necrowarrior (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=872066&highlight=warrior)

PrC

The Fiend and Necromancer show (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13254850#post13254850)

Chat stuff .

Undeath and it's Beauty (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=651507)

Another necromancy project. Not bad stuff.

The Hobgoblin Boneripper (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14914658&postcount=234)

Mediocre fluff, but a powerful and decently balanced class. See if your dm allows you to ignore the racial requirement.

***

BOOKS

Hollowfaust: City of Necromancers (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=3279)

A scarred land-based book, lots of fluff and some decent material.

Libris Mortis (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/179240000)

A wotc product, contains lots of undead and some really good rules.

Heroes of Horror (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/885227200)

Contains the obligatory Dread Necromancer, an excellent base class.

Encylopaedia Arcane: Beyond the Grave, Necromancy (http://www.hitmissorfumble.com/product_info.php?products_id=15072&)

A mongoose publishing book, not amazing, but some interesting discussion of necromantic principles.

Complete Mage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953847200)

Contains the Master of Undeath feat, and discusses the undead master archetype.

Unearthed Arcana (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881560000)

Contains the undead master and undead minion special rules.

Magic of Incarnum (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/885797200)

Necrocarnum and stuff.

Thee Compleat Librum ov Gar'Udok Necromantic Artes (http://www.lulu.com/content/725556)

A fairly decent third party book with really bad medieval-style spelling.

Dry Land: Empires of the Dragon Sands (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9398.phtml)

A mediocre, but packed third party book with rules on true mummies and embalming.

Dragonmech (http://www.goodman-games.com/dragonmech.php)

Undead mechs for all, plus 'meat racks' and steaming zombies.

more to come.

[katarl]

reserved for later 2

[katarl]

WotC Necromancy Spells
courtesy of seeker95

Aboleth Curse
Affliction
Animate Dead (M)
Animate Dead Familiar (XP)
Animate Dread Warrior (XP)
Animate Legion (M)
Arrow of Bone (M)
Ashen Union
Astral Projection (M)
Aura of Terror
Avascular Mass
Avasculate
Awaken Undead (XP)
Backbiter (F)
Barghest's Feast (M)
Bestow Curse
Greater Bestow Curse
Black Mulching
Blackfire
Blackwater Taint
Blade of Blood
Blight
Blindness/Deafness
Blood Snow
Bone Chill
Bone Tattoo
Bonefiddle (F)
Foe's Burning Blood
Burrowing Bony Digits
Cause Fear
Chill Touch
Choking Sands
Circle of Death (M)
Clone (M) (F)
Command Undead
Contagion
Mass Contagion
Control Undead
Create Greater Undead (M)
Create Undead (M)
Curse of Impending Blades
Mass Curse of Impending Blades
Dance of Ruin
Death Armor (F)
Death Grimace
Death Throes
Depression
Desiccate
Mass Desiccate
Desiccating Bubble
Disrupt Undead
Greater Disrupt Undead
Doom Scarabs
Ebon Ray of Doom
Ectoplasmic Enhancement
Elemental Shroud
Energy Drain
Energy Ebb
Enervating Breath
Enervation
Evil Glare
Eyebite
False Life
Fear
Feign Death
Finger of Death
Fleshshiver
Gelid Blood
Gentle Repose (M)
Ghost Storm
Ghoul Gauntlet
Ghoul Glyph (M)
Ghoul Touch
Graymantle
Grim Revenge
Gutwrench
Halt Undead
Haunt Shift
Healing Touch
Heart of Stone (F) (XP)
Heartfreeze
Heat Leech
Hide Life (XP)
Horrid Wilting
Imperious Glare
Incorporeal Enhancement
Incorporeal Nova
Junglerazer
Kiss of the Vampire (M)
Last Judgment
Leech Ghost Skill (M)
Leech Undeath
Life Bolt
Liquid Pain
Magic Jar (F)
Miasma of Entropy
Mind Poison
Mindfrost
Mummify
Necrosurgery
Necrotic Awareness (F)
Necrotic Bloat (F)
Necrotic Burst (F)
Necrotic Cyst (F)
Necrotic Domination (F)
Necrotic Empowerment (F)
Necrotic Eruption (F)
Necrotic Scrying (F)
Necrotic Skull Bomb
Necrotic Termination (F) (XP)
Necrotic Tumor (F)
Negative Energy Burst
Negative Energy Ray
Negative Energy Wave
Night's Caress
Opalescent Glare
Orb of Dancing Death
Orb of Negative Energy
Parching Touch
Plague Carrier
Plague of Undead (M)
Preserve Organ
Ray of Depletion
Ray of Enfeeblement
Ray of Entropy
Ray of Exhaustion
Ray of Sickness
Ray of Weakness
Rebuking Breath
Revive Undead (M)
Righteous Glare
Scare
Shadow Curse
Shadow Shield
Shivering Touch
Lesser Shivering Touch
Shriveling
Shroud of Undeath
Sinsabur's Baleful Bolt
Skeletal Guard (M)
Skull Snare
Skull Watch (F)
Slow Consumption
Soul Bind (F)
Soul Charge (F)
Soul Shackles
Spawn Screen
Spectral Hand
Spectral Touch
Spider Poison
Spirit Worm
Spiritwall
Steal Life
Sticks And Stones
Stolen Breath
Stop Heart
Sunstroke
Sword of Darkness (M)
Symbol of Death (M)
Symbol of Fear (M)
Symbol of Pain (M)
Symbol of Weakness (M)
Thalassemia
Thin Air
Threshold of Unlife
Touch of Fatigue
Transfusion
Undead Couduit
Undead Lieutenant
Undead Torch
Undeath to Death (M)
Vampiric Touch
Veil of Undeath (M)
Visage of the Dead
Wail of the Banshee
Waves of Cold (M)
Waves of Exhaustion
Waves of Fatigue
Wither
Wrack
Wracking Touch

[Maerok]

v Signature. :smallbiggrin:

[katarl]

There, i've added your sig to the references, is there any particular piece you'd like to submit?

[Deathtouched]

Um, okay, I'm not sure what I'm doing here...
I read most of the stuff and the Complete Lich etc., but I'm not sure what I should do. You asked me earlier if I wanted to submit my FN class, and I'd like to, but uh...
I don't know what I should be doing...

Anyways, this is an interesting project you have, and I agree that necromancers need some boosting. Um, my brain just died... Nice thread... :smalleek:

[Maerok]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61372
^ Animate Limb spell

[Vadin]

Just some ideas,

an Undead bolstering/temporarily creating ToB discipline/class?

some Undead soulmelds/meldshapers?

various and sundry states and types of Undead? That is, more than just "Undead" to describe skeletons, zombies, vampires, shades, and wights. For example, skeletons are more dead than alive. vampires are more alive than dead. Intelligent undead tend to be less dead. Unintelligent undead are often quite dead. Some are incorporeal when they're dead. Some aren't. They're very different, and besides being "kinda alive but not really" there isn't anything to tie them together. This could be fixed perhaps?

20 level classes that slowly transform a character more and more Undead? More than just a monster/template LA class, a class that lets characters choose, designing and becoming their own unique brand of undead as they advance.

[katarl]

I don't know what I should be doing...

Just post a link to your class, or copy and paste it onto a post. It's a collection of necromantic homebrew, to make it easier for necromancer players, and also to discuss and post new things.


an Undead bolstering/temporarily creating ToB discipline/class?

Such a thing exists! The Thirteenth way, unquiet twilight.


some Undead soulmelds/meldshapers?

er, necrocarnum?


various and sundry states and types of Undead? That is, more than just "Undead" to describe skeletons, zombies, vampires, shades, and wights. For example, skeletons are more dead than alive. vampires are more alive than dead. Intelligent undead tend to be less dead. Unintelligent undead are often quite dead. Some are incorporeal when they're dead. Some aren't. They're very different, and besides being "kinda alive but not really" there isn't anything to tie them together. This could be fixed perhaps?

Yes that is a bit wierd, K touched on that i think, with the dark minded template.


20 level classes that slowly transform a character more and more Undead? More than just a monster/template LA class, a class that lets characters choose, designing and becoming their own unique brand of undead as they advance.

The dread necro does that though, doesn't it?


^ Animate Limb spell

kewl.

[Parvum]

How blasphemous is the idea of a necromancer that focuses on... well... 'good stuff'? Puting off death (without reanimation), undoing wounds, whatnot...

[Mewtarthio]

You mean a healer?

[katarl]

A necromantic healer isn't too bad an idea, but you have to consider the role of the cleric, and not make them better healers than them.

[Vadin]

Such a thing exists! The Thirteenth way, unquiet twilight.

Ah.


er, necrocarnum?

The mechanics of necrocarnum are...awkward, at best. Things like undead souspark style melds, analogous to animate dead spells.


Yes that is a bit wierd, K touched on that i think, with the dark minded template.

An optional rule set might help. Intelligent undead become lifeless or gain it as a subtype, while mindless undead remain simply undead. There should be difference between the two if lifeless is a different type, and/or it should definitely grant more than just an intelligence score and the ability to gain class levels.


The dread necro does that though, doesn't it?

The dread necro just gains the undead subtype, unless I'm mistaken. I'm invisioning a class that gains undead and undead-esque abilities as it progresses, and gains more and more undead qualities as it progresses. For example, it might gain more and more fortification as it progresses, so it is eventually immune to critical hits. It also might pick from lots of spell-like abilities. It could eventually become like a vampire, a zombie, a mummy, or a wight. Not any of those exactly, but a customized composite character/monster that can have elements of each. Actual necromancers are rather plentiful, and this would be a way for people who don't want to play casters to get a taste of undead abilities.

[Hunter Noventa]

The dread necro just gains the undead subtype, unless I'm mistaken. I'm invisioning a class that gains undead and undead-esque abilities as it progresses, and gains more and more undead qualities as it progresses. For example, it might gain more and more fortification as it progresses, so it is eventually immune to critical hits. It also might pick from lots of spell-like abilities. It could eventually become like a vampire, a zombie, a mummy, or a wight. Not any of those exactly, but a customized composite character/monster that can have elements of each. Actual necromancers are rather plentiful, and this would be a way for people who don't want to play casters to get a taste of undead abilities.

The Necro gains a number of abilities from the undead type, and at 20th level becomes a lich for 'free'.

[Danu]

katarl, I thought I'd point out the Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=759515). It's actually a pretty handy resource for any necromancer, especially so for d.necros.

[katarl]

The dread necro just gains the undead subtype, unless I'm mistaken. I'm invisioning a class that gains undead and undead-esque abilities as it progresses, and gains more and more undead qualities as it progresses. For example, it might gain more and more fortification as it progresses, so it is eventually immune to critical hits. It also might pick from lots of spell-like abilities. It could eventually become like a vampire, a zombie, a mummy, or a wight. Not any of those exactly, but a customized composite character/monster that can have elements of each. Actual necromancers are rather plentiful, and this would be a way for people who don't want to play casters to get a taste of undead abilities.


The Necro gains a number of abilities from the undead type, and at 20th level becomes a lich for 'free'.

Dread Necro was a very good class, but i could easily see the concept working for other undead, not zombies or wights (too little abilities to base a class on), but vampires, mummies, mohrgs would all work. I did start a dread necromancer class that tried to become an animus, with persuasive powers instead of charnel touch at one point, but nothing came of it.


katarl, I thought I'd point out the Dread Necromancer Handbook. It's actually a pretty handy resource for any necromancer, especially so for d.necros.

Like a goblin dropped in a Golgari vat, our list grows.

[MorkaisChosen]

A Good-aligned Necromancer class or feat would be interesting- either making some Good effects using negative energy (Smite the evil ones with negative energy) or a Grey Guard-style class that allows you to make Undead without it being evil.

[Maerok]

A Good-aligned Necromancer class or feat would be interesting- either making some Good effects using negative energy (Smite the evil ones with negative energy) or a Grey Guard-style class that allows you to make Undead without it being evil.

What kind of fun is that? :D

[katarl]

What kind of things do people want to have put into the Complete Necromancer?

[MorkaisChosen]

Negative-energy-wielding soul-ripping Evil-smiting baddasses as a PrC- "I eat your soul for Goodness!", sorta like FlayerMan.

[katarl]

Corpsecrafter [Corpsecrafter]

Benefit: You learn three traits from the list below, which you may apply to undead you create or animate using necromancy spells. These traits cost additional material components to apply, an additional 25gp/hit die per trait, and may have prerequisites for their use. Undead can support only so many traits, see table 1-01. You may take this feat multiple times, each time learning three different traits. Applying traits requires 1 hour of work on the corpse to affected.

Bodysnatcher [Corpsecrafter]

Prerequisite: Corpsecrafter
Benefit: You may temporarily add corpsecrafter traits to undead you create without needing to pay the extra material component cost. You may apply one trait you know to an undead you create or animate per two corpsecrafter feats you possess. This may not exceed the undead's maximum. The traits remain in effect for 1 hour, at which point they stop working, and the undead is destroyed by the negative energy leaving the creature. Applying these traits is a swift action.

Sewing Life [Corpsecrafter]

Prerequisite: Corpsecrafter, caster level 6
Benefit: You may combine corpses of the same size to create a larger and more powerful single corpse, which you may then animate. This costs 25gp per hit die of each corpse you wish to combine in material components. The hit die of the combined creatures is the first corpse's hit die, adding half of each donor's hit die.

Combining three corpses results in a larger undead, with the increased natural armour and natural attack damage appropriate to it's size. Once animated with a necromancy spell, it has all the weapon proficiencies, feats and subtypes the base bodies would have, and may have any natural attacks any of base bodies would have had. The corpsecraft limit is increased appropriately according to it's new hit die.

The strength score of the resulting creature is the highest strength of the base corpses plus the strength score of the next strongest -10. Each increase in size increases the strength of the resultant creature by the strength score of the next (3rd, 4th, 5th) strongest creature -10. The dexerity of the result creature is the highest dexerity of base corpses, -2 per size increase. You may add one corpse donor to the base corpse, plus another one per 2 corpsecrafter feats you possess.

Combining bodies requires 1 hour per body.

Imbued Necromancy [Corpsecrafter]

Prerequisite: Corpsecrafter; any item creation feat
Benefit: You may create undead with magical properties, as if they were items. You may treat the creatures' flesh as masterwork armour, their natural weapons as masterwork weapons and their body as an item for purposes of crafting. When the undead is the destroyed, the magic is lost.

Crafting in this way costs half the base price, but requires the item creation feat in question.

[munchlord]

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=872066&highlight=warrior
There ya go

[Vadin]

@munchlord: thanks! a very nice springboard.

Yes, something similar to the Necrotic Warrior of Nerull muchlord has presented, though not a PrC, more options, all 'aspects' active at once (like any respectable undead) and less specifically evil. Not good, perhaps, but I could certainly see a neutral character seeking unlife as a road to immortality and power (passing up lich due to its 'omgimsocrazy' side effect).

In other news, how many good undead are there? For example, using the corpsecrafting rules at present, an army of normal soldiers augmented by undead healers would be great. The undead are far more resilient than normal clerics and could easily gain things like fast healing to keep themselves alive to heal another day. Also, what alignment are undead created by good casters? Are they good?

[EDIT: Wow..I have a tendency to ramble...]

[munchlord]

@munchlord: thanks! a very nice springboard.


what alignment are undead created by good casters? Are they good?

Thank you for the credit, that PrC is encoroperated into my own setting (although with a sligthly different name and another god)
Speaking of the same setting, the good "necromancers" there is a cult that creates deathless creatures, some of them are akin to skeletons and zombies (the basic ones) some are quite different.

[katarl]

reserved for later.

[katarl]

no-one interested in posting links or material?

there must be hundreds of homebrew necromancers on the web.

[Vadin]

I think we were all waiting for you to fill in the 'reserved for later' post.

[smart thog]

I've got some stuff


The necromancer and fiend show (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13254850#post13254850) Basicly, its car talk for undead and demons.

Undeath and its beauties (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=651507) Something A lot like what were doing

And some feats

Soul chilling spell (Metamagic)
Prerequisites- able to cast Enervation
Benefit- any spell you cast that inflicts negative levels can be cast as a soul chilling spell. A soul chilling spell has a 50% chance to deal a extra negative level whenever it deals negative levels. A soul chilling spell uses a spell slot of the spells normal level

Practiced turner
Prerequisites- able to turn/rebuke undead, extra turning
Benefit- you are treated as having four more levels in whichever class gives you turning/rebuking, but not more then you HD. (see practiced spellcaster, complete divine)

Enlarged hoard
Prerequisites- able to cast animate dead
Benefit-all undead you control by any means are treated as having one less hd for the purposes of controlling them for you only

Pimpedey necromancy (Epic)
Prerequisites- Dread Necromancer 21
Benefit- You learn all 1st level necromancy spells that a cleric and wizard may use, as though you gained them from advanced learning.
Special- you may take this feat up to eight more times, learning new necromancy spells for the level you gain (the second time is second level spells, third time is third level spells, and so on.)

[katarl]

Enlarged hoard
Prerequisites- able to cast animate dead
Benefit-all undead you control by any means are treated as having one less hd for the purposes of controlling them for you only

That's an interesting idea, mind if i make it a corpsecrafting feat?

[bibliophile]

I am a complete noob when it comes to homebrew, so I'm afraid my suggestions are rather general, and probly broken.


1) An wizard prestige class that allows you to advance in spells as normal, but takes away bonus feats (and maybe even scribe scroll) in return for a greatly expanded upper limit of the number of HD you can control, allowing you to make a small army.*

2) Some kind of feat that allows one to preform augury, not as the spell, but it's origanal meaning, divination from entrails; perhaps human entrails?

3) A new use for the soul bind spell. What if you could use someone else's imprisoned soul to make an intellegent, and extremely strong undead? Trapping and enslaving someone's soul is extremely evil, so perhaps use of this idea automaticly shifts one's alignment on the good/evil scale to evil. (LN becomes LE, CG becomes CE)

4) Animal undead?* Aberation undead?



*This sounds like it's been done before, but I thought I'd throw it out there on the off chance it hasn't

[katarl]

Boneweaver [Corpsecrafter]

Prerequisites: Any two Corpsecrafter feats.
Benefit: Undead you create or animate with necromancy spells cost your limit one less hd, to a minimum of one. This does not affect the maximum number of traits your undead can have. If you possess five or more corpsecrafter feats, undead you create or animate with necromancy spells cost two hd less, to a minimum of one.

[katarl]

Soul Infusion [Corpsecrafter]

Prerequisites: Any three corpsecrafter feats; able to cast create undead as a necromancy spell
Benefit: You may choose to gain control of one undead you create or animate using a necromancy spell. This does not count towards your hd limit, and can apply to undead you would not ordinarily be able to control, such as those created by the create and greater create undead spells. You may only control one undead plus another for every 2 corpsecrafter feats you possess over three.

[smart thog]

That's an interesting idea, mind if i make it a corpsecrafting feat?

Normally I would not mind, since but you used it anyway, without my permission. Their is only one answer. CORPSECRAFTER FEAT WAR!!!!

Bone Buildings [Corpsecrafter]
Prerequisites: any four corpsecrafter feats, including undeadapult
Benefit: you may animate and control undead buildings. an undead building is treated as an animated object of its size, that is undead and has the skeleton template. You may only animate a Undead Building of up to colossal size, for buildings bigger then that, they are merely multiple undead buildings that are close together. It is impossible to gain control of an undead building in any way except by use the control bone building spell. You may animate Bone buildings through the create greater undead spell, with all the normal requirements, expect the material component is a bone building that costs 1000 gp per size category above large, and needs 100 dead bodies and one DC 35 spellcraft check and one DC 35 knowledge arcana or Knowledge religion check to make, as well a book on how to build a building.

Control bone building
Dread necromancer 9/ cleric 9/ Wizard/Sorcerer 9
Necromancry
Casting time 1 hour
Duration instantaneous
Target, one bone building per ten levels
Save none
Spell resistance no

Using this spell, you take control of one bone creature per ten caster levels, provided it meets the following criteria. One, it must be made by you, or its owner must be dead (not undead, but dead dead). Two, it not have been attacked by postitive energy the prior day. Three, it must be drenched in the blood of a sentient creature of good aliment. You may only cast this spell if you have the bone building

undeadapult [Corpsecrafter]
Prerequisites: any three Corpsecrafter feats, including boneblade
Benefit: You may make undead siege engine as well as control them. Any time you cast animate dead on more the 10 dead bodies, you may make an undead Siege weapon. Treat any given undead Siege Engine as an animated object of the selected siege engine, which is then given the skeleton template. It is impossible to gain control of a undeadapult by any means expect for the control undeadapult spell. The price of animating any given undeadapult is as follows.

Medium 500 gp
Large 1000 gp
Huge 1500 gp
Gargantuan 2000 gp
Colossal 3000 gp

You need to succeed on a DC 25 spellcraft check and a DC 25 knowledge arcana check or a DC 25 knowledge religion check to make a undeadapult. A undeadapult uses its own function of hit dice for determining how many you may control. You may control one hit dice worth of undeadapults per level in any class that gives you animate dead. A undeadapult may aim and fire itself, but it needs someone to reload it if it needs ammo.

Medium 1 HD
Large 2 HD
Huge 4 HD
Gargantuan 8 HD
Colossal 16 HD

Control undeadapult
Necromancry
Cleric 5, Dread necromancer 5, Wizard/Sorcerer 5
as control bone building, but with undeadapults and you need the Undeadapult feat.

Boneblade [Corspecrafter]
Prerequisites: able to cast animate dead
Any undead creature you make may be made into a boneblade. A boneblade is a weapon made out of undead. It deals half the damage of the undead creatures primary natural weapon, including supernatural abilities, like ability drain or negative levels, and half the damage of the weapon in was made into. May only make a undead into a boneblade weapon if the base weapon's damage type matches the damage type of the undead primary naturl weapon. For example, skeletons can be made into scimitars, zombies into clubs, and ghouls can be made into anything. If a undead that is made into a boneblade is intelligent, the boneblade is an intelligent item with no special powers. Boneblades count agaisnt your normal level of controlled undead.

Everlasting undead [corpsecrafter]
Prerequisites: unholy thoughness, able to cast create undead
Benefit: any undead you make can be given unholy thoughness with no extra cost.

Souless undead [Corpsecrafter]
Prerequisites: able to cast trap the soul
Benefit: any undead you make out of a corpse that you cast trap the soul on, (or any effect that holds a soul), becomes soulless. The fact that it has no vestige of mortality gives it great power. it gains the fiendish template.



See! five corpsecrafter feats! Beat that!

[Vadin]

BWNED.

Nice. Undeadapult? Bit of an awkward name. Might I suggest Corpse Cannon, or something similar?

[smart thog]

Sure. Thats A good name. I am just too lazy to fix it.

[Collin152]

Don't be kncking the undeadapult!

[katarl]

Normally I would not mind, since but you used it anyway, without my permission. Their is only one answer. CORPSECRAFTER FEAT WAR!!!!

Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

(apologies for using it btw)

i'd like to refine them though, bone buildings for example allows you to create colossal buildings for 3000gp, a little bit too cheap.

I like boneblade and undeadapult, though the title is misleading, it doesn't actually *chuck* undead. That would be fun.

However i worry about everlasting and soulless, everlasting a sorcerer pc with create undead would be terribly broken, and soulless replicates an existing spell.

[munchlord]

what about a catapult that spreads some undead making disease, like the shooting of dead cows in the dark ages, but with an extra twist?

[MorkaisChosen]

Undeadapults shooting Wights into a fortress would be amusing... Throw in two wights, and by the time you get the doors open you might have a hundred!

[smart thog]

Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete!

(apologies for using it btw) Wimp. thought you would be all for an Corpsecrafter war.


i'd like to refine them though, bone buildings for example allows you to create colossal buildings for 3000gp, a little bit too cheap. That is intentional. They are really weak for a feet choice, and they are supposed to be your fortress.



I like boneblade and undeadapult, though the title is misleading, it doesn't actually *chuck* undead. That would be fun.
Just put earth necromentals and it does chuck undead.


However i worry about everlasting and soulless, everlasting a sorcerer pc with create undead would be terribly broken, and soulless replicates an existing spell.

I agree that everlasting undead is kinda overpowered, but all the undead that have a decent cha score are really important to any necromancer, and this is for those wizards who make big stuff like shadows and Morghes. Anything worth using it on is worth a lot. Maybe a price attached besides a feat?

Soulless is ment to be overpowered. Yes, it duplicates a existing spell, which is really annoying to cast, but this for use on zombies of your foes, to add insult to injury. Plus, it is really to hard to rez some who got bargest feasted, soul trapped, and made into a soulless zombie. Maybe it should be made into a class feature.

[katarl]

1) An wizard prestige class that allows you to advance in spells as normal, but takes away bonus feats (and maybe even scribe scroll) in return for a greatly expanded upper limit of the number of HD you can control, allowing you to make a small army.*

Ah, i wrote the boneyard necromancer a while ago, which suits this idea, but there are many PrCs that venture into this territory.


2) Some kind of feat that allows one to preform augury, not as the spell, but it's origanal meaning, divination from entrails; perhaps human entrails?

That's an interesting idea, though it might be best suited for pre-medieval games.


3) A new use for the soul bind spell. What if you could use someone else's imprisoned soul to make an intellegent, and extremely strong undead? Trapping and enslaving someone's soul is extremely evil, so perhaps use of this idea automaticly shifts one's alignment on the good/evil scale to evil. (LN becomes LE, CG becomes CE)

Unfortunately, intelligent undead is replicated by various spells, so you'd have to have special rules for this.


4) Animal undead?* Aberation undead?

No, hasn't really been done before. Closest i can think of is the blighter, in complete divine, and animate animal, in mongoose's compendium.


Wimp. thought you would be all for an Corpsecrafter war.

Not my first corpsecrafter war, but i find the quality of the feats suffers when you're trying to rattle them off. We ended up with over 60 of them, but very few were useable.


That is intentional. They are really weak for a feet choice, and they are supposed to be your fortress.

... even so, a feat to gain a fortress? Undead buildings are good, but they should be more strenuous to build than that.



Just put earth necromentals and it does chuck undead.

*mental image of a zombie commoner flying through the air towards a castle*

sounds like a fun sport to me.

[smart thog]

... even so, a feat to gain a fortress? Undead buildings are good, but they should be more strenuous to build than that. It is pretty hard to build. You need two DC 35 checks, at least 1000 gp, a book on building buildings and 100 corpses (this last step involves a lot of murder, which will send the hero's after you in no time)




*mental image of a zombie commoner flying through the air towards a castle*

sounds like a fun sport to me.

Now add destructive retribution. *Smack. Booom! Heal undead*

[Realms of Chaos]

Ashen Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72954)

Wanted to submit my own work, built in part upon the corpsecrafter principles suggested by katarl.

[munchlord]

^ dude, the link leads to making a post in your thread.

[katarl]

:) was that on purpose RoC?

That's like, evilness.

[katarl]

Zathina Mage (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=995957)

Rather unusual but unfinished.

[Realms of Chaos]

DOH!!!!!!

I knew I was doing something wrong.

Fixed now, though.

[katarl]

So what do people think of the above feats (mine and smart thog's)?

[smart thog]

I have just come up with an awesome combo. Sonic snap + fell drain. 6 points of damage, various penelties, and chance to be dazed, with no save for a second level spell slot! Twin spell it, and add soul chilling spell, and you get 2-4 negative levels, plus, 2 points of damage (big woop) and two chances two be dazed. With no save! For a forth level spell slot, its better than a soul chilling enervation (if the dice really hate you).

[bibliophile]

I was thinking of some kind of benefit from imprisoning someone's soul in a corpse, beyond mere intelligence. Like being healed by positive energy, severe fear effects against enemies, or retaining class abilities.

[katarl]

I was thinking of some kind of benefit from imprisoning someone's soul in a corpse, beyond mere intelligence. Like being healed by positive energy, severe fear effects against enemies, or retaining class abilities.

That sounds really interesting, think you can write it up?


I have just come up with an awesome combo. Sonic snap + fell drain. 6 points of damage, various penelties, and chance to be dazed, with no save for a second level spell slot! Twin spell it, and add soul chilling spell, and you get 2-4 negative levels, plus, 2 points of damage (big woop) and two chances two be dazed. With no save! For a forth level spell slot, its better than a soul chilling enervation (if the dice really hate you).

I may have to ban my players from taking this.

[smart thog]

I may have to ban my players from taking this.

May? May?! You must ban your players from this. No save, and a negative level for a second level spell slot. And the twinned soul-chilling version is a sin against nature. So yeah, give to that NPC necromancer. He needs it. *Starts a madman's laugh*

[katarl]

bump for later

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Here's a few things.

I'm not entirely sure if it's worth mentioning, because it has no really new content as far as crunch goes, but I have an undead-based setting, Nation of the Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38868).

Holy Deathless One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62574) - Holy crusader for the good god of death, Aeomon.

Necrolock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1745177#post1745177) - For those warlocks who happen to specialize in necromancy and don't like the price of black onyx.

Scion of the Black Words (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1814058) - Not a particularly undeath based necromancer, but they're good at using bad words.

Good Lich Template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47119) - When you're a pillar of goodness, and want to live forever.

Some that aren't mine now.

Emperor Lich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50317) - Like a normal lich, but far better.

Scion of Thanatos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38674) - Another necromantically involved warlock class, which mixes well with my Necrolock.

Speaker for the Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28070) - Sorrow incarnate and those capable of conversing with those who are dead.

Vampiric Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10243) - Much like the Emperor Lich, but for vampires.

Many undead creatures by The Demented One. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3072012&postcount=42)

Sheska (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74123) - An undead abomination that could as easily touch your heart as she would tap your spine.

[smart thog]

Here's another feat for you

Soul freezing spell

Prerequitis: soul chilling spell
Benefit: Any soul chilling spell you cast has an extra 50 percent chance to do another negative level, so a fell drain soul freezing sonic snap can do from 1-3 negative levels.

[smart thog]

are there no more necromanticy links?

[katarl]

update with a few more necromancy things.

[Dante & Vergil]

I don't think you guys have 'Secret College of Necromancy' from Green Ronin Publishing on that list. Other than that, this is amazing because I hate searching for things pertaining to necromancy.
Also,

Unearthed Arcana (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/881560000)

Contains the undead master and undead minion special rules.


where in the Unearthed Arcana is this, page wise?

[katarl]

where in the Unearthed Arcana is this, page wise?

it's in the wizard specialist section. You can also find the rules in the SRD.

[The Glyphstone]

One of the few threads where thread necromancy is APPROPRIATE...

The Dicefreaks Undead Templates (http://dicefreaks.forumz.cc/viewforum.php?f=14)

I didn't write any of it, but it's still handy material - for DMs, at least, it might take a bit of work to be PC usable.

[DracoDei]

Well, here are my necromantically related creations...
The Master Of Life and Undeath might be a good source for a take on slowly becoming undead, granted it is built for Clerics, but still...


How to get a bunch of Undead out of one corpse:
Floating Lungs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62115) - (based around the Shout spell). Feel free to suggest a better name...

Hopping Stomach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3301315) - Spits acid.

Gut Snake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3295643&postcount=8) - Undead intestines that fight with constriction, filth, and odor.

Empty Skin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44544) - Macabre, but not always aggressive. Freak your characters/players out without a single die rolled... Intelligent servants for the necromancer just starting to come into his true power.

Dark Hearts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64187) - Literally pulsing with negative energy these repair the undead near them, and damage the living.

(Bladders with attached kidneys probably coming next.)


Creature for enemies of necromancers:
Martyr Flitter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51127) A gift from the Heavens that can be used to store up positive energy to be released (by killing it) to heal the living and damage the undead.


Prestige Classes:
Master of Life and Undeath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3384164) Clerics who channel both positive and negative energy and pass gracefully between life, undeath, and death.

[Morrolan]

I realize that this thread has been dead for 2 years now, but I am hereby animating it as a bone creature thread. Muhaha.
Many of these links are dead ones, which is to bad.
Anyways, I just wanted to add this: Reborn Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8044093)
It's necromancy as it should be (according to me, that is)
Keep in mind that its still in progress, I'm discussing it with my DM.

[Set]

Templates for jazzing up zombies, etc. (http://ruemere.com/scarredlands/contributions/ruemere03.htm)

Using craft skills (including alchemy) to pimp your undead. (http://ruemere.com/scarredlands/contributions/soltares03.htm)

[Fable Wright]

Yes, this thread has been dead a while, but I have a question: do you have any ideas for a necromancer epic prestige class? It would be cool to have the ability to go up to a random castle, animate the dead that were under it for thousands of years, having them rise up and raze the castle to the ground, merge the corpses and the rubble into new, animated mobile fortress #8324 for the undead armada that you're planning on sending to take out Celestia. (BTW, for those who know what I'm talking about, the castle looks like a cross between Novigen and a giant spider, and filled to the brim with lesser dread necromancers with necrotic tumors in their brains, wights, and shadows.) Seriously, can anyone think up a class for that?

[katarl]

I don't know about a class, but Animate City seems to fit the first requirement (from mongoose's Necromancy book), and either Bone Shape (from Hollowfaust) or Dragonmech's undead city mech would fit the second.

I did write a dread necro progression, but i believe for what you're looking for is either an epic spell (or two) or the previously described spells and rules.

I like your ideas for attacking Celestia, i recently finished a game where we had very similar objectives, though i used epic leadership and Energy Transformation Field cheese rather than necrotic thralls, which would have been more efficient i think. Your idea is certainly more dramatic, i built my citymech out of 85,000 chicken corpses.

[Satyrus]

Here's a Hexblade PrC I made for Hexblade's centered around undead and negative energy via curses. Still might need some fine tuning though.

Hexer of Unlife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8209325#post8209325)

[Fable Wright]

This is somewhat unrelated, but here's a random thought on what to do if your Dread Necromancer is confronted by a paladin: say, "If you kill me now, not only will I reform in a week or so, but all of the wights, shadows, and other spawnmaking creatures under my command would be free, and they would terrorize the countryside much more than I do. I just terrorize people there when I need more recruits, or when I feel bored. These wights, though... would be ready to march onto the capital city in a week. Every town is a new legion for them..."

EDIT:

Also, your link for mongoose's necromancy is broken... (not the spell, just the link in general; I can't find the book)

[waterpenguin43]

I'm thinking of putting out Salt, Ash, Vacuum, and Dust domains

[Set]

I believe that there's a True Ritual in one of the Scarred Lands books that allows one to go to some ruined city, find the ruler's corpse, and use the ritual to animate every corpse in X radius (up to a thousand or ten thousand mundane skeletons), and either make the ruined city your new happy place, or send them marching off to really annoy your neighbors...

I used it in a Scarred Lands game and the PCs had to sneak out of the city under seige to find the command tents in the back and find the crown-adorned skull of the cities dead ruler, which served as a focus by which the army was controlled. They ended up running through the desert at 6th level with the skull, thousands of skeletons chasing them, trying to destroy something with DR 25...

Rebuilding that True Ritual as a UA style Incantation could be an interesting way to go.

As for the upthread mentions of good Necromancers;

Your best bet for an effective good necromancer is to research some necromancy spells of your own.

Necromantic energies are great at killin' stuff. Some stuff *needs* killin', such as hostile organisms, contagions and parasites. A Necromancer makes a *perfect* source of arcane cure disease, by sending a tiny flood of negative energy washing through a living person’s body, sickening them and inflicting a point of ability damage to Con, but kill all of those pesky less-than-one-hit-point diseases and parasites. (The sickness and ability damage? Well, some of the stuff killed might have been helpful gut bacteria. We takes the good with the bad...)

The same feature makes negative energy useful for sterilizing an area, for purifying tainted water, for purging foodstuffs of contagion, etc. in a magical medieval version of shooting radiation into food to kill bacteria. And there are people who will pay good money to be 'sterilized' for a short time, such as high-priced prostitutes, noble brats who want to party with the hoi-polloi without 'consequences,' etc. If you want to go with science, a flood of negative energy to kill reproductive cells would render a woman infertile until her next cycle (which, if that time is uncertain, would be in the next 2d8 days), and a man infertile for a day or two (6d8 hours?). Alternately, we can toss science out the window and have it last 30 days, regardless of gender, 'cause it's magic, and the spell is actually leaving a charge of negative energy in the person's body throughout the duration, making it a reliable and affordable form of magical birth control.

Contacting spirits of the dead, the actual original role of the 'necromancer,' could allow for a wide array of benefits. The spirits could be consulted for lore, allowing for bonuses to knowledge checks, they could be consulted for assistance in skills they have mastered, allowing a spirit-caller to possibly 'Aid Other' on skill checks of all sorts, by contacting the appropriate 'spiritual advisor,' and they could even, if made manifest, however weakly, be called upon to provide other benefits, aiding a particular target as if using the Aid Other combat action, as the young warrior feels the spirit of a grizzled veteran flow over him like water, lending skill to his sword-arm, or pushing his shield up in the way of an oncoming blow. This sort of thing would be a fine low level buff, since it's only giving the recipient a +2 to attack rolls or AC, switchable round by round, as the spirit of the deceased soldier provides tactical advice from within the beneficiary, temporarily 'possessing' him.

Spirits of the dead also make superior scouts, perhaps having only a single hit point and being easily dispelled back to the spirit world, but being able to pass incorporeally through surrounding walls and doors to observe what is on the other side. At low levels, the necromancer has to find (and bargain with!) a local spirit, so that he might only be able to use this spell if he can find a suitable corpse. At higher levels, he might be able to bind such a scout to him, perhaps as an Improved familiar, using Shadow stats (but not evil and with no Create Spawn ability, resembling a translucent black and white image of the person from whose body it was conjured), and have it follow him around (and return in 24 hours, like a ghost, if 'dispelled' by damage or turning or whatever). The spirit *might* be a very weak ghost, of someone who refused to pass on, for whatever reason, but, more likely, would be one of those spiritual echoes that get left behind in a corpse, with which one speaks when casting Speak with Dead, and while the necromancer has a 'fetch' of the person, their actual soul is off in Nirvana, counting turtles or whatever. At higher levels, a necromancer can barter with and bind one of these 'fetches' into a spirit jar or something, and bring them around with him, opening the jar when he needs their services, instead of having to find a convenient body at the target location. These jars would usually be one-use items, with the spiritual fragment free to return to its resting place when the service is over, but higher level versions would be re-usable, perhaps containing the ashes of the deceased (or even being crafted from their skull!) as an 'anchor' for the echo.

One step beyond conjuring souls, or these 'echoes' used by the Speak With Dead spell, a necromancer could use *his own spirit* for such things, sitting down cross-legged on the ground and shaking and rolling his eyes back as his own spirit travels forth with Shadow-like stats, to scout an area, or even to attack people. If his own spirit is 'slain' or dispelled, he suffers some traumatic result (dropped straight to -1 and Dying, for instance), so he's ill-advised to send his *soul* out to kill people...

He could also project a fraction of his own life-energy, necromantically, into unliving matter, allowing him to animate objects, similar to the Animate Objects spell, but one item at a time, and with the HD limit dependent upon his own power (the 'strength of his soul'). The low level version of this spell would, again, require him to send his soul out of his body, to 'possess' the object, but at higher levels, he could cast a spell that infuses an object with a fraction of his life-force, and allow him to animate it while remaining active himself (albeit at reduced hit points, as some of his life-energy is animating the object). If the object animated is destroyed, he loses the hit points he sent over to animate it (instead of flat hit points, I'd make it cost Con points, 1 for a smaller item, 2 for an item of his own size, etc.), and would have to recover the lost life-energy through healing, either over time, or through magic. Perhaps he can project life-force into anything, and animate it, or perhaps only into substances that were formerly alive (things made of bone, wood, leather, etc.). Perhaps the item needs an association with death (graveyard soil, animated by the necromancer with the stats of an earth elemental of appropriate size, or a weapon, functioning as a dancing weapon while he's 'possessing' it). Whatever seems thematically appropriate.

By projecting his life-force like this into another person, he could heal them, starting at a one for one ratio, and, at higher levels, learning to more precisely control the healing effects, and healing another of 2 hit points for every 1 that he takes, or something similar, doing a kind of magical transfusion, where he floods the wounded person with his own magical life-energy, to reinforce their body's own healing rate.

Less benevolent applications could allow him to project a fraction of his spirit into another, like a weak version of Magic Jar, allowing him to spy upon them as they go about their business, peering through their eyes, and hearing with their ears. At higher levels of this effect, he might be able to influence their actions, to a limited extent, or even totally seize control of them, lurching their body around like a puppet, if his soul can overpower their own. In a less sinister vein, he could perhaps perform the same 'buffing' service of the lesser spirits he used to call up, 'back in the day,' and from within an ally's body, warn them of danger, inform them of knowledges that he possesses, or even guide their limbs in battle, giving them the benefits of Aid Other. This more benevolent 'Rider Within' spell wouldn't allow him to seize control, or to perform actions like spellcasting through his 'host,' and his own body would remain in a death-like trance during the spell, as his animus is out to lunch.

Earlier editions made decent use of Feign Death type spells, another necromantic staple, and while not a 'cure' spell by any means, it can help someone survive poison or the effects of starvation or bleeding to death, by putting them into a deathless trance until they can be gotten to a safe place, or to someone who does have the cure needed to prevent their death.

The majority of a good necromancer's effects should work similarly, using *his own* life-energy to animate things or heal people, using his own spirit to scout places or inhabit things, and perhaps using his mastery of life and death to help others resist effects, by giving them immunities similar to those of undead (infusing someone with extra life-energy to make them resistant to environmental cold / heat effects, for instance, or suppressing their bodies need for air, so that they can go without breath for a short time, or making them incapable of bleeding, etc.). When he does call up spirits, they should be bargained with, or represent the 'echoes' that one contacts via Speak with Dead, not souls dragged screaming out of Heaven (or Hell), which should be way, way beyond the beginning Necromancer's purview (and terribly unsafe, since Asmodeus, for one, takes a very dim view of people taking things that belong to him!).

This 'bargaining' should occasionally include it's own Side-Trek, as the spirit you wish to interrogate about information promises to tell you everything, so long as you go make sure her family is safe, or that the bastard who killed him is punished. Unlike a divination spell, which 'just works,' negotiating for the services of a spiritual scout or advisor may occasionally require some extra effort.’

For a more shamanistic take, a 'primitive' necromancer may even learn spells that call up the spirits of animals, infusing them into the spirits of his tribe's warriors, who streak their faces with blood and ash and wear the skins of the animals whose abilities they seek, so that when they go to the hunt, they have the keen senses of their 'benefactor,' or the savage nature of the bear, etc. Yet more 'necromancy buffs,' only, in this case, using the life-force and spiritual residue of animals to empower allies.

You could even make up a necromancy-flavored Factotum want to be, by having your spirit-caller collect the skulls of the fallen, and tap into their knowledges and abilities for his own use. As with Speak With Dead, he wouldn't be talking to their *souls,* but just to whatever 'echoes' or 'khaibit' remain, and in the case of arcane (or divine) casters, he might only be able to draw upon the power that was left within them when they died, forcing him to acquire new skulls to replenish his supply of spells (although he could tap into and 'channel' the feats and skills of warriors and rogues far more easily). Or he might even be able to channel power without expending the skulls, but by casting the spells 'remembered' by the skulls as shadows of their former potency (a form of shadow conjuration / evocation). This sort of sideways necromancer has whatever array of abilities he chooses to channel at a given time, making him a funky blend of Factotum and Binder, but, IMO, this would be a completely different class, and not just stuff that any Necromancer could do as readily. A darker version would go the harvesting skulls route, a more spirit-shaman / ancestral speaker sort would call up the spirits of his fallen tribesmen, countrymen, animals he's hunted, etc. and use their abilities while channeling the echoes of their spirits.

Once the power of necromancy is considered to apply to potentially harnessing (or harvesting...) the power of anyone that's ever died, it's wide open.

[katarl]

This is somewhat unrelated, but here's a random thought on what to do if your Dread Necromancer is confronted by a paladin: say, "If you kill me now, not only will I reform in a week or so, but all of the wights, shadows, and other spawnmaking creatures under my command would be free, and they would terrorize the countryside much more than I do. I just terrorize people there when I need more recruits, or when I feel bored. These wights, though... would be ready to march onto the capital city in a week. Every town is a new legion for them..."

EDIT:

Also, your link for mongoose's necromancy is broken... (not the spell, just the link in general; I can't find the book)

Posing Lose-Lose Moral Quandries to consequentialist heroes are one of the perks of being evil, i approve heartily. However, speaking as a paladin player as well as an evil player, the correct response to the necromancer would be:

"First, I'll destroy you, then your phylactery, then the wights too."

Paladins aren't timid about alignment, and they don't worry about the consequences of their actions as much as the intent behind them, if read the fluff of every good pally, you'll always find them to be deontological in their stance towards morality. This might work on a goodly mage, who tend to think of the consequences, but not a paladin.


As for the link, i checked the site and it seems mongoose doesn't support their 3.5 products anymore. To be honest, it isn't a huge blow, mongoose's emphasis has always been very much more about quantity rather than quality.


Once the power of necromancy is considered to apply to potentially harnessing (or harvesting...) the power of anyone that's ever died, it's wide open.

Post too large to fully quote.

There are indeed a great number of uses for necromancy that don't involve killing or animating. The ideas you mention obviously need quite a lot of homebrewing, though i'm worried that many of these spells lean over into other schools, such as the 'tracker spirit' (divination) and animating objects, which of course already exists in another school.

Generally the arguments for good necromancy come in three varieties- using the school for healing using homebrew rules, using the already existing evil spells pragmatically for goodly ends, and to put the name necromancy to use by focusing on a divination/necromancy combination.

You'd need to use one of these to play a decent goodly necromancer as the rules stand, as I stated a number of years ago, necromancers get a raw deal, very few spells and a terrible reputation. To keep up with the other schools, you'll need to use imaginative solutions to problems, like the ones you detail above.

[Fable Wright]

"First, I'll destroy you, then your phylactery, then the wights too."

Does the Paladin think that he/she can kill a lich, then round up 100+ wights going on a rampage an doubling their numbers every hour, with hordes of insubstantial shadows killing everything the wights can't get to first? ... That is one stupid paladin. Reminds me of a quote once made by my DM:


You remember the words of an old, wise thief: "Never try to steal from a necromancer." That's how he became a wise, old thief.

// said to the party's rogue after he wanted to try to pick my character's pocket.
The Character, still trying to finish his character: My character's wisdom score: 8.
DM: That would explain why he's trying to rob a necromancer.

[katarl]

Does the Paladin think that he/she can kill a lich, then round up 100+ wights going on a rampage an doubling their numbers every hour, with hordes of insubstantial shadows killing everything the wights can't get to first? ... That is one stupid paladin. Reminds me of a quote once made by my DM:

Doesn't help much that most paladins dump their int.

[Set]

The ideas you mention obviously need quite a lot of homebrewing, though i'm worried that many of these spells lean over into other schools, such as the 'tracker spirit' (divination) and animating objects, which of course already exists in another school.

Yeah, the use of a spirit to scout would be a sideways version of using a conjured creature to scout, and, as with the conjuration option (or having a flying familiar that can scout for you), generally hoses the diviner, who, IMO, has one of the suckier schools already.

Divination and Abjuration are in dire need of some new toys in their boxes. There are a dozen fairly awesome products expanding Necromancy, and Conjuration and Transmutation hardly need the love, but a few other schools always feel like the ugly sister that got left behind.