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Tetsubo 57
2008-02-14, 06:53 PM
Mind Flayers are carnivores that primarily consume humanoid brains. The dread "brain extraction" attack. Does anyone know if they can survive on non-humanoid brains, such as animals? Essentially a "vegetarian" Mind Flayer. I am just wondering what a good aligned Mind Flayer would do to survive...

Cuddly
2008-02-14, 06:56 PM
Take vow of poverty?
Ring of sustenance?
Psionic powers?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-14, 06:58 PM
I believe they can survive on less intelligent brains; they're just less tasty and filling.

Icewalker
2008-02-14, 07:00 PM
Yeah. Or you could be a crazed 'righteous crusader' type, and eat the brains of the evil, although many would argue that that is evil. I'm not sure myself.

I'm with Fax: any brains are fine, intelligent ones are just far preferable.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-14, 07:01 PM
Get a minor creation at will item and make brains, I guess.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-14, 07:03 PM
Get a minor creation at will item and make brains, I guess.

Can't make animal materials with minor creation, sorry. I suppose you could make a brain-shaped rock, though. Or a tree that grows brains.

Cuddly
2008-02-14, 07:08 PM
Yeah. Or you could be a crazed 'righteous crusader' type, and eat the brains of the evil, although many would argue that that is evil. I'm not sure myself.

I'm with Fax: any brains are fine, intelligent ones are just far preferable.

Hey, waste not want not. And you can donate the saved rations to orphans.

Mewtarthio
2008-02-14, 07:15 PM
I suppose it really depends on the definition of "Good" the campaign setting uses. If it's a strictly utilitarian definition (eg The rights of an individual can be sacrificed for the good of the whole), you could theoretically extract brains from unwilling, screaming peasants provided you use that nourishment to kill a Pit Fiend.

Generally, of course, that sort of thing won't fly in most worlds. I would expect, however, that you'd always have the option of extracting brains from foes in combat.

The_Snark
2008-02-14, 07:15 PM
Or be a psionic mind flayer and take Psionic Sustenance as one of your powers. You don't even need to be an exceptional (PC) mind flayer to do this.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-14, 07:17 PM
Hey, waste not want not. And you can donate the saved rations to orphans.

...or to cats.

http://www.asofterworld.com/clean/floral.jpg

FoE
2008-02-14, 07:20 PM
I would think that mind flayers would have to consume the brains of non-sentient creatures if only because they would not have easy access to sentient beings. That said, I would think they would prefer the brains of sentient organisms, just like vampires prefer the blood of humans to that of pigs.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-14, 08:09 PM
orc and goblin brains may taste like crud but if it follows the attack first, without making a righteous decree of your impending destruction, ask questions later method I say eat it up. if your party is gonna kill it anyways... you know... waste not want not.

Prometheus
2008-02-14, 08:14 PM
I had always assumed that a Mind Flayer's psionic power-like abilities, telepathy, racial power points, and mind blast ability were a result of their consumption of sentient brains (definitely the mind blast, as the HP Lovecraft explanation for it would be that they are broadcasting the terrible secrets of tortured brains at their target). If they feasted on only animals, or replaced their need for sustainence with magic, than they would still survive, but would lose their special abilities. That, of course, would defeat the point of wanting to be a mind flayer.

Neutral works surprisingly well as an alignment in these types of things (I've had a vampire in a similar situation). As long as the party allows the mind flayer to extract the brains of recently defeated foes, than the mind flayer should have a sufficient stock of brains that satisfy both the craving for brains and the intelligent kind (the latter they would need less frequently I'd imagine). They, of course, might still want sustainence magic for dry spells

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-14, 10:17 PM
Or be a psionic mind flayer and take Psionic Sustenance as one of your powers. You don't even need to be an exceptional (PC) mind flayer to do this.

That is an excellent idea. I haven't looked at the Psionic Powers list in ages. Might be time for a reread.

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-14, 10:18 PM
I suppose it really depends on the definition of "Good" the campaign setting uses. If it's a strictly utilitarian definition (eg The rights of an individual can be sacrificed for the good of the whole), you could theoretically extract brains from unwilling, screaming peasants provided you use that nourishment to kill a Pit Fiend.

Generally, of course, that sort of thing won't fly in most worlds. I would expect, however, that you'd always have the option of extracting brains from foes in combat.

Not to turn this into an alignment thread... but that doesn't fit my personal nor gaming definitions as "good". Peasants are people too... :)

Worira
2008-02-14, 10:27 PM
A mind flayer only actually needs one brain a month, though they aim for one a week. As far as I can tell, they have to be sentient, or at least are far preferable. Orcs will do, but are like unflavoured porridge. Brains aren't actually all they eat, though.

Collin152
2008-02-14, 10:32 PM
A mind flayer only actually needs one brain a month, though they aim for one a week. As far as I can tell, they have to be sentient, or at least are far preferable. Orcs will do, but are like unflavoured porridge. Brains aren't actually all they eat, though.

Hey, don't go dissin' mah porrige!

DM_Rotate
2008-02-14, 10:33 PM
As Woira said, according to LoM, illithids can get a lot of their physical nutrition from organs and such. Brains, however, are their most efficient food, since brains contain both all the nutrition they need plus the psionic energy they feed off of.

Thus, I think you could make a "vegetarian" illithid by making him survive off of a variety of different organs taken from slain enemies.

Pronounceable
2008-02-14, 11:46 PM
Can't make animal materials with minor creation, sorry. I suppose you could make a brain-shaped rock, though. Or a tree that grows brains.

Is it me, or is that an awesome image?

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-14, 11:49 PM
Is it me, or is that an awesome image?

Well, since the Mind Flayers think of all sentient life (other then themselves) as food... I could see a Mind Flayer program of warping humanoids via Psionics and transforming them into such an aberration.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-15, 12:07 AM
Who says a Mind Flayer who was 'good' wouldn't eat brains of sentient creatures? To them, brains are food as much as steak is food to us. We keep cows and sheep and other creatures herded together and slaughter them to feed our need/desire for meat...is that evil? (aside from some PETA wack jobs, most would say no). In the wild an animal is at least as intelligent than it's prey...and they are not 'evil'.

So...a creature that devours brains...they do so just for food. To them, humans and such are so much as cows. Creatures of inferior intellect that can be herded, controlled, raised, used for labor, and killed when time comes to use them for food. There in a nutshell, you have their abduction, slavery, and murder of humanoids...similar to the way we catch, domesticate, use animals for labor, breed them, and then eat them...is it evil? No...even ants grow plants, and cultivate herds of aphids for food...

A mind flayer 'enslaving' groups of humanoids they find in 'the wild', and using them for whatever before eating them is only 'evil' to us...to them...it is just normal activity.

I am sure there are some 'PETA' style Mind Flayers...perhaps METH (mind Flayers for the Ethical treatment of Humanoids) who see the eating of humanoid brains to be an abomination...that obviously these poor humanoids are smart and know what is going on and that herding them around is just barbaric and cruel...these Mind Flayers might swear off brains and seek other methods of nutrition...perhaps magical or psionic fare, perhaps only consuming the brains of animals or giant insects...depends on what would sustain an Illithid.

Remember, to them we are as smart as animals that learn tricks...a few are even smart enough to learn rudimentary telepathy and handle it with the same grace as a gorrilla does sign language and can communicate...to the at least. does it matter to them...probably not...they know through their own telepathy that all living things are capable of communication with each other...some more than others...Only...more brain power to them is just like picking the fattest hogs or the beffiest cows...you pick the food that tastes the best and cultivate it.

VanBuren
2008-02-15, 12:57 AM
Who says a Mind Flayer who was 'good' wouldn't eat brains of sentient creatures? To them, brains are food as much as steak is food to us. We keep cows and sheep and other creatures herded together and slaughter them to feed our need/desire for meat...is that evil? (aside from some PETA wack jobs, most would say no). In the wild an animal is at least as intelligent than it's prey...and they are not 'evil'.

So...a creature that devours brains...they do so just for food. To them, humans and such are so much as cows. Creatures of inferior intellect that can be herded, controlled, raised, used for labor, and killed when time comes to use them for food. There in a nutshell, you have their abduction, slavery, and murder of humanoids...similar to the way we catch, domesticate, use animals for labor, breed them, and then eat them...is it evil? No...even ants grow plants, and cultivate herds of aphids for food...

A mind flayer 'enslaving' groups of humanoids they find in 'the wild', and using them for whatever before eating them is only 'evil' to us...to them...it is just normal activity.

I am sure there are some 'PETA' style Mind Flayers...perhaps METH (mind Flayers for the Ethical treatment of Humanoids) who see the eating of humanoid brains to be an abomination...that obviously these poor humanoids are smart and know what is going on and that herding them around is just barbaric and cruel...these Mind Flayers might swear off brains and seek other methods of nutrition...perhaps magical or psionic fare, perhaps only consuming the brains of animals or giant insects...depends on what would sustain an Illithid.

Remember, to them we are as smart as animals that learn tricks...a few are even smart enough to learn rudimentary telepathy and handle it with the same grace as a gorrilla does sign language and can communicate...to the at least. does it matter to them...probably not...they know through their own telepathy that all living things are capable of communication with each other...some more than others...Only...more brain power to them is just like picking the fattest hogs or the beffiest cows...you pick the food that tastes the best and cultivate it.

Good and Evil aren't relative in DnD.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-15, 02:04 AM
no, they are not relative...but the argument holds...Mind Flayers are 'evil' in that they take pleasure in the fact that they torment and kill things that fear them. They get a kick out of it. It's not just the nurishment, they enjoy all the things they do.

What I was saying was that a mind flayer could be 'good' and still enslave and eat humanoids as long as they weren't malicious about it. Afterall...they need to eat...it isn't their fault humanoid brains are made of food.Even if they didn't get off on all the death misery and destruction they would still eat humanoid brains if only to keep themselves alive and to feed their families/community.

The brain eating alone does not make them evil...what makes them evil is all the crap they do and with glee. They feel themselves superior to the lesser creatures and unlike elves who see 'lesser races' as misguided children, mind flayers see humanoids as food at best, and as objects to be used and destroyed as a verminous pest that makes funny noises when you do 'this' at worst.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-15, 02:17 AM
I think it was mentioned already, but Mind Flayers do eat more than just brains.

The reason why they need to eat brains, is because of the way they take over bodies. Those bodies require certain energies, which normally would be produced by a brain. But the Mind Flayer's don't produce them.

So they eat people's brains.

Also, herding people tends to result in what more or less is pretty bland and flavorless. Wild Humanoid has a lot more "flavor".

Adventurers in this example are a delicacy.

Khanderas
2008-02-15, 03:55 AM
Mind flayers live off brains. Brains are mostly just fat.
If only the nutrients were important, they could just live off bacongrease.

Therefore: They need psionic sustenence, taken from a living, intelligent brain. (note: psionic sustenence does not equal psionic abilities).
So you need intelligent brains to feed from.

Now eating brains is a natural function for Illithids so with the same "logic" I don't count lions as evil, eating brains because your body requires it for you to survive, is not evil inherently. Intelligent or not. Remember: killing stuff is NOT evil in DnD. It is the reason why you kill that (sometimes) pushes your alignment one way or the other.


I remember a spelljammer novel series, where there was an illithid who was a nice guy, had a charmed kobold around. The protagonist asked him who that was and got the reply, "he is my food" (followed by the explanation he needed that to live, though he understood other humanoids were somewhat revolted). One day that kobold was not around anymore....
Many awesome points to that guy. Ethriss ? Something like that was his name. When they were boarded by pirates he ate one of the pirates IN BATTLE !

Annd im off rambling agin. Short answer: Needs intelligent brains.

Armoury99
2008-02-15, 05:01 AM
.... or maybe just a Ring of Regeneration and a devoted slave? Admittedly, its like eating the same meal over and over again, but if you're a member of METH you just have to make sacrifices.

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-15, 06:38 AM
Why has no-one suggested Hydras yet?

And to throw my 2cp into the alignment discussion:
Suppose I was dying of liver failure and couldn't find a donor. A willing donor, that is. Suppose I killed the guy across the room from me, the skinny guy in the red football shirt, and took his liver (ignoring questions such as tissue compatibility for the sake of the analogy).
Would this be evil or not? I am doing it to stay alive. Just one person killed and I can live out the rest of my natural span. I'm not don't have any malice towards him. Can wanting to save your own life be evil?

Now suppose it wasn't a case of one "donor" equals one natural span; suppose one "donor" equalled one month; suppose I knew the to sustain my existence, it would require one death every ~30 days. Does the fact that this process becomes "normal" make it more or less evil?

Substitute brains for liver where appropriate.

Reinboom
2008-02-15, 06:57 AM
I would consider the above evil, in that it is inherently selfish while still taking something against another person's free will that also jeopardizes the other person's standing.

You are also making a comparison value for human life. (I'm worth more than they are).

Then ends isn't even justifying the means here.
1 living while many die.

A justified end would be the eater letting themselves die so other live.
1 dead while many live.

It is difficult for me to conceive how that would not be evil.

PlatinumJester
2008-02-15, 07:00 AM
I think these brains would be OK to eat:

http://www.boomerangshop.com/dvdcover/imageweb12/EvilBrainFromOuterSpace11634_f.jpg


OR


http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/3/3d/205px-Futurama_ep39.jpg

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-15, 07:07 AM
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

Reinboom
2008-02-15, 07:18 AM
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

I now have the urge to write a comic featuring Superman as a mindflayer.

Freelance Henchman
2008-02-15, 07:56 AM
I now have the urge to write a comic featuring Superman as a mindflayer.

Superflayer? I love that guy!

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-15, 08:08 AM
Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Flayerman, eating your brain.

That works...

Ascension
2008-02-15, 08:16 AM
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

Grey Guard Mind Flayer! Finally, something the prestige class is really good for!

"Yes, I'm lawful good. Yes, I'm eating your brain. Now stand still just a moment..."

hewhosaysfish
2008-02-15, 08:20 AM
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

I wonder how he subsists when he can't find an evil murderer? Perhaps he makes his own?

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-15, 08:21 AM
That's what Death Row is for.

Oh, god help me, I'm reading too much Lovecraft...

Grey Guardian would definitely work- what are the prereqs?

Person_Man
2008-02-15, 10:35 AM
Can't make animal materials with minor creation, sorry. I suppose you could make a brain-shaped rock, though. Or a tree that grows brains.

I want that tree for my cubical.

It will solve a lot of problems for my co-workers.

Keld Denar
2008-02-15, 01:41 PM
Large communities of mind flayers often construct Extractatoriums. These are large amplitheater style chambers with a raised stage at the front. The community gathers in the theater while one mind flayer (usually a community leader or just the lucky winner of the weekly lottery). The head of a captured living powerful adventurer is raised up through a hole in the center of the stage, and the chosen mind flayer opens a telepathic link between himself and all the other mind flayers in the theater. He then devours the brain of the unlucky adventurer, savoring it and sharing the sensation with everyone in the room via telepathy.

Doesn't that just paint a wonderful mental picture? The final screams of the victim. The sickening sucking slurps of the mind flayer. The silent cheer of hundreds of mind flayers sharing the taste. The collective salivation of an entire community.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-15, 07:09 PM
people eat meat all the time. illithids eat brains all the time

people justify eating cows as theR not that sMart so it doN't not maTter no mUch.

illithids think pretty much all creatures are beneath them to the point where they can't even comprehend the infinite level of their inadequacies...like we view cows.

we eat, they eat. only vegetarians can validly argue against this, at which point...

DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY VEGETABLES HAD TO DIE FOR YOUR SALAD!?!?

13_CBS
2008-02-15, 07:25 PM
I now have the urge to write a comic featuring Superman as a mindflayer.

Do so, and I'll buy every single issue you ever write. :smallbiggrin:

PollyOliver
2008-02-15, 07:45 PM
I should preface this by saying that I don't know all that much about mind flayers, but I do know a fair amount about brains. Does a mind flayer's meal have to be fully conscious? Because, really, the brain of someone who died recently (very recently) is still usually alive for several minutes. It is not until several minutes after "death" that technical and final brain death occurs (this is when you get the typical release of the bowel muscles). So, theoretically, if you just killed someone, their brain, while not conscious, is still alive. So as long as whatever you were fighting didn't sustain any massive head trauma, and not long has passed since you dropped him, you should be free to have a quick snack after the fight. (This is, of course, assuming the victim doesn't have to be fully conscious. If they do, ignore me and my crazy suggestions.)

FlyMolo
2008-02-15, 08:06 PM
Actually, in LoM, which is the Illithid sourcebook, in that it contains everything you never wanted to know about illithids, it says that illithids eat other things besides brains, but they need the brains to survive.

I don't like that. I like the position of the Dungeonomicon writers who think that illithids just eat brains, and the absorbed psychic energy lets them go without food. That just rings more sensibly for me. I like that version of mind flayers.

A Good act: letting yourself die slowly so that others might live.

An Evil act: killing others so that you might live.

A Neutral Act?: eating the brains of fallen enemies? or comrades?

The brain just has to be mostly fresh. Kind of like steak has to be mostly fresh.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-15, 08:07 PM
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

that mind flayer reminds me of Judge Dredd.

Mewtarthio
2008-02-15, 09:39 PM
A Good act: letting yourself die slowly so that others might live.

Wow. No wonder the Forces of Evil are so successful.

I think I'll introduce a new viewpoint: Who are we to judge what should be considered Food Good for an Illithid? After all, we are but simpletons an fools next to none of us have ever been in a position where we had to cause a death every month to survive.

Or so I assume, at any rate. I suppose conscripts would fall into that category. Are you saying that conscripts are evil?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-15, 09:48 PM
Wow. No wonder the Forces of Evil are so successful.

I think I'll introduce a new viewpoint: Who are we to judge what should be considered Food Good for an Illithid? After all, we are but simpletons an fools next to none of us have ever been in a position where we had to cause a death every month to survive.

Or so I assume, at any rate. I suppose conscripts would fall into that category. Are you saying that conscripts are evil?

well, most people eat some meat...so, they are at least in part responsible for the death of a mammal of lesser intelligence by our standards...and this is done to eat.

An Illithid is responsible for the death of a mammal of lesser intelligence also...and it is also done to eat... (yes there are more than just mammals, don't get snarky. :smalltongue: )

I do kinda liek the idea of an Illithid Paladin...they have some great Charisma scores, so they would fit well...To keep them as 'evil', I might have one be a blackguard, or a paladin of Tyranny. I will say the idea of a LG Illithid who eats the brains of evil doers is quite amusing...If I run an evil campaign, or have PC's adventuring in a city that is mostly evil...I will have to use this Illithid as an NPC...it would just be too good...the avenging Illithid for METH that ferrets out evil, scans minds for truth and intent to bring about a better order...one who seeks those behind all the major evils of the society and carefully 'judging' them for their crimes.

Kinda like Morpheus...but brains and not blood...

Jothki
2008-02-15, 11:25 PM
Would Awakening a cow and then eating its brain be evil?

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-16, 06:08 AM
Would Awakening a cow and then eating its brain be evil?

Killing an eating a sapient being such as an Awakened animal would be Evil in my opinion (and my campaign). Killing and eating a sentient (not sapient) animal would not be Evil.

A sentient animal is aware of the world around them (Int score of 1 or 2). A sapient animal is self-aware (Int 3+). Killing sentient animals for food is a moral act. Killing and eating sapient animals is an immoral act. Eating a sapient animal after it is dead would be a neutral act.

So a Mind Flayer that scavenged the dead post-battle would be acting in a neutral manner. I would allow a Good Mind Flayer to do this without issue. Of course it isn't likely to be perceived as a socially acceptable act by many other people...

Side note: I would allow a Thri-Kreen (or other sapient carnivore) to do the same without issue. Though a Thri-Kreen probably wouldn't consume a pack mate.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-16, 07:30 AM
I think it could even eat the cows brain without the awakening. Though I'm not certain of this.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-16, 07:42 AM
Clearly what's needed are those animals from the restaurant at the end of the universe,

"Hello, I'll be your dish of the day. May I recommend my left parietal lobe, I've been doing lots of sums so it should be nicely fattened up" (or whatever area, you know what I mean)

Creatures that aare intelligent, intelligable and actually WANT to be eaten as the cumulation of their existance. If only the Illithids had intelligent, long-term planning, a society wide slave breeding programme and psionic powers with which to manipulate their subjects.... Oh, hang on:smallbiggrin:

Tetsubo 57
2008-02-16, 07:52 AM
I think it could even eat the cows brain without the awakening. Though I'm not certain of this.

They would receive nutrients from cow brains but not psionic energy. Unless of course they were especially bred Psionic Bovines...

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-16, 08:31 AM
They would receive nutrients from cow brains but not psionic energy. Unless of course they were especially bred Psionic Bovines...

No, I think it fulfills that requirement too. But I'm not 100% sure of this.

Tola
2008-02-16, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by MorkaisChosen
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

Venom of Marvel Comics was like this for a time.(It's the source of one of his win quotes for Marvel vs Capcom: "We want to eat your brain!") I don't know how many brains he ended up actually eating, though.

Collin152
2008-02-16, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by MorkaisChosen
How's this for an idea- Mind Flayer Paladin who exacts justice by eating brains?

In fact he doesn't even need to be a Paladin, just a Judge-type (Vigilante, maybe...). You are an evil murderer, therefore I eat your brains.

Venom of Marvel Comics was like this for a time.(It's the source of one of his win quotes for Marvel vs Capcom: "We want to eat your brain!") I don't know how many brains he ended up actually eating, though.

12 brains, but to be fair, he thought one of them was a cheeseburger.
It kind of was.

F.H. Zebedee
2008-02-17, 12:31 AM
This makes me think of Illithids surviving as a wealthy minority in cities, paying people to let them eat their brains and then paying the costs for resurrecting people. They wouldn't only be neutral, they'd be helping out the poor. Possibly making brain eating a good act.

Next thing you know, professional brain donors begin cropping up, and a Brain Eaters Ethics Assosciation is monitoring the trade in brains, making sure that nobody gets shorted on resurrections and healings.

That'd be flipping awesome.

And then we would need to figure out how much a character can charge for a brain loaded with INT skills and such...

#Raptor
2008-02-17, 09:53 AM
Probably not as much as for a brain that got 2 or even 3 high mental stats. Remember 31# (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)!
A good balanced meal is preferable to one that has only one high stat. So I guess a Paladin, Cleric or Archivist would be preferable to a Wizard or a Druid. (I know - the flayer in #31 doesn't seem to go for Durkon. Thats cause he dumped cha, wich is usually not the case with Clerics.)