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GryffonDurime
2008-02-14, 08:18 PM
So, in a game I'm playing, our party (two wizards, a cleric, a rogue, and a fighter) have just been subjected to a very annoying legend...we went off in search of a "juvenille" red dragon who wanted to learn wizardry.

We were treated to an old red dragon who liked to make "your mom" jokes.

I want it dead. We're going to be level 7 soon, and I'm a Conjurationist Wizard. We'll have wealth and time. Is there any way to slaughter this dragon with our current resources, short of Candle of Invocation cheese?

tyckspoon
2008-02-14, 08:25 PM
Shivering Touch (Frostburn, 3rd level, 3d6 Dex damage touch spell. Pure cheese.) Learn it, abuse, apply coup-de-grace until dead. Duck the books and/or dice bag your DM throws at you.

The_Snark
2008-02-14, 08:31 PM
1. Wait somewhere near its cave until the dragon is asleep.
2. Cast Silence and Invisibility on fighter or rogue.
3. Have fighter/rogue waltz in and coup de grace the dragon in its sleep. With a scythe.
4. Gloat.

0. Purchase scythe?

That should do it; I don't think Blindsense will detect you if the dragon is asleep. A high-Strength fighter is better for this than a rogue, since that dragon has a high Fortitude save—especially if they have Power Attack. But a rogue would have a pretty good shot as well.

Cons: Have to have a suitable party member, and convince them to help.

Pros: If the dragon rolls a natural 20 on the Fortitude save, you're not the one who gets toasted.

AslanCross
2008-02-14, 08:33 PM
Shivering Touch (Frostburn, 3rd level, 3d6 Dex damage touch spell. Pure cheese.) Learn it, abuse, apply coup-de-grace until dead. Duck the books and/or dice bag your DM throws at you.

If the DM adds scintillating scales to the dragon's spell list, you're screwed.

Voyager_I
2008-02-14, 08:58 PM
Assuming your DM doesn't allow ridiculous cheese and doesn't play the Dragon like a bag of hitpoints waiting at the bottom of a hole for you to kill it and take its treasure, there's probably not much you can do.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-14, 09:54 PM
in my oppinion...Dragons Don't Die.

played properly... a party of 4 lv 20 characters should fall to an Old Red hands down.

Reason A) A dragon without an escape route is a lizard. NOT a dragon.

Reason B) Blindsense technically works while sleeping no matter what. but as a house rule you may want to implement need for the dragon to make appropriate spot/listen checks except no penalty for sleeping (minimum +30 to check for old) either way walking on a pile of gold coins has to be bad for your rogues health as they skitter and scatter out of the range of the silence spell on the rogue as their movement also allerts said beast of utter destruction

Reason 3) Caster lv 11 equals at least 3 Stoneskin. How come nobody considers a dragon will have spells cast on itself BEFORE combat? Buffed dragon with SR so dispell probably fails for you but it can dispell just fine. Dismissal for summons and such... the list goes on

Reason D) If you expect an old red w/ massive hoard to not have a couple of useful magic items available to it... you're sadly mistaken.

Reason X)+52 grapple and 200 ft fly speed... separate party,eat, rinse repeat. sure it takes a few rounds to build up speed but no wizard (first target) beats the grapple check required to cast the spell to escape unless its silented and stilled in which case the player deserves many kudos.

Last Reason) He who fights and flies away lives to kill you at a later date when you're not expecting it and its the most bloody vengeance ever to be wrought unto your mortal soul by anything less than that of the gods.

In closing, older dragons are listed WELL under their CR... if you kill a dragon at or above your level of ability then you either had some super lucky tide turning factor (half xp for kill in that case) which is usually cheese, or DM error... as in didn't play to any extent of full potential. Usually the second one leads to the first one.

I think i just wrote an essay..... help me

Prometheus
2008-02-14, 10:18 PM
I agree, The DMs actions clearly indicate that the dragon has untouchable power over you, even if it is a nemesis. Very few like to make you very mad at a villain only right before you kill him. If you kill the dragon in a clever or long term manner, you DM may very well praise you for it. If you try to kill the dragon with cheese, I doubt he will accept it.

If you do like to see what you can do, and want the dragon dead more than you want its treasure, than I imagine toying with the idea of creating a collapse in dragons cave.

The trick is, to release as much rock down upon his at the same time as possible. To kill a dragon this involves much more than dropping stalagmites no his head, but engineering a rock slide that occurs from within the mountain and pins him to the earth as he slowly dies. You will probably need Transmute Rock to Mud for this, which means 9th level Wizards or 5th level scrolls (its shapeable so that you can effect a large area, but you intend to weaken the structure with it rather than drop mud on him). It may require several castings for it to be effective, in the meantime, you are probably making a lot of noise causing rocks to slide. Therefore use as many casters casting as many helpful spells as you can. As long as you have some Transmute Rock to Mud, even Soften Earth and Stone, blasting spells and water spells should help to some degree. If you wait till you get Disintegrate, you will be in good shape. If there is any gunpowder or alchemical blasting substances in your campaign, that may also help.

If your DM is skeptical about your expertise, hire NPCs with knowledge (engineering/architecture), knowledge (geography), and knowledge (local). You may also need to tunnel in from the top in order to target deep enough (depending on how deep the cavern is relative to the surface of the mountain and the spells you are using). This will be a long term project, which you perform some drilling and leave before you are caught. Either the dragon will put his wrath to the surrounding lands (see below), he'll leave (at least he's off your back and you get the treasure), or he'll do nothing, in which case you proceed with the plan.

More likely than not, the effectiveness of the rock slide will be up to your DM's discretion. If he feels like you worked hard for it and weren't in it for the treasure, he'll let you. If he wants you to fear the dragon and keep it in the story, it will survive and come after you with a vengeance. Therefore, I suggest some mode of fast transportation or hiding as a backup. Also, the question needs to be asked about how much you care about the surrounding villages and farmlands should they get the fallout from your hubris. In my opinion, you'll have a lot of fun trying no matter how you look at it.

Chronos
2008-02-14, 10:19 PM
1. Wait somewhere near its cave until the dragon is asleep.
2. Cast Silence and Invisibility on fighter or rogue.
3. Have fighter/rogue waltz in and coup de grace the dragon in its sleep. With a scythe.
4. Gloat.
How do you know when it's asleep? Scrying and the like will only tell you trivial details like whether its eyes are closed, and whether it's snoring. And if it's not sleeping...

The_Snark
2008-02-14, 10:23 PM
in my oppinion...Dragons Don't Die.

played properly... a party of 4 lv 20 characters should fall to an Old Red hands down.

Reason A) A dragon without an escape route is a lizard. NOT a dragon.

Reason B) Blindsense technically works while sleeping no matter what. but as a house rule you may want to implement need for the dragon to make appropriate spot/listen checks except no penalty for sleeping (minimum +30 to check for old) either way walking on a pile of gold coins has to be bad for your rogues health as they skitter and scatter out of the range of the silence spell on the rogue as their movement also allerts said beast of utter destruction

The most money a dragon of standard treasure can have is 120,000 gold pieces (they can have more value in platinum, but we're just looking at volume here), which is not actually enough to have a mound of gold coins that an 80-foot dragon could sleep on; not one so tall that gold pieces will be slipping away out of a 20-foot radius of Silence, anyway. I don't think that's a problem.

Darkstalker is also a common feat for rogues, negating Blindsense—combine with Silence and Invisibility, and the rogue is effectively completely undetectable.


Reason 3) Caster lv 11 equals at least 3 Stoneskin. How come nobody considers a dragon will have spells cast on itself BEFORE combat? Buffed dragon with SR so dispell probably fails for you but it can dispell just fine. Dismissal for summons and such... the list goes on

The dragon's caster level is 11th, and its SR is 24, which is truly pathetic for a CR 20 creature; besides which, Dispel Magic is not affected by SR. I agree that dragons should buff up before combat and employ spells to good use*, but any PC spellcaster will be able to strip them of buffs without a problem. On the reverse side, its dispels will only have maybe a 10% chance of affecting the party spellcasters.

*Dragons with Blood Wind and/or Wraithstrike are terrifying. Full attack range suddenly becomes anywhere within 100 feet—and if you're within actual full attack range, you're doomed.


Reason D) If you expect an old red w/ massive hoard to not have a couple of useful magic items available to it... you're sadly mistaken.

Reason X)+52 grapple and 200 ft fly speed... separate party,eat, rinse repeat. sure it takes a few rounds to build up speed but no wizard (first target) beats the grapple check required to cast the spell to escape unless its silented and stilled in which case the player deserves many kudos.

Last Reason) He who fights and flies away lives to kill you at a later date when you're not expecting it and its the most bloody vengeance ever to be wrought unto your mortal soul by anything less than that of the gods.

In closing, older dragons are listed WELL under their CR... if you kill a dragon at or above your level of ability then you either had some super lucky tide turning factor (half xp for kill in that case) which is usually cheese, or DM error... as in didn't play to any extent of full potential. Usually the second one leads to the first one.

I think i just wrote an essay..... help me

I agree in general, especially about magic items and escape routes, but keep in mind that 20th level characters have an incredible amount of resources. A 20th level wizard who isn't protected by Freedom of Movement is lucky to have survived that long, and even if they do make that mistake Dimension Door will get them out of a grapple.

Older dragons are formidable and should never be approached without careful planning and good tactics, and maybe a little under-CRed especially when the DM plays them well, but they're beatable by well-played characters of the appropriate level.


How do you know when it's asleep? Scrying and the like will only tell you trivial details like whether its eyes are closed, and whether it's snoring. And if it's not sleeping...

You hope? And apologize to the player whose character got eaten if it goes wrong? :smallredface:

It's not perfect, but I don't think there is a perfect way for level 7 characters to kill a CR 20 creature.

sikyon
2008-02-14, 10:39 PM
in my oppinion...Dragons Don't Die.
Reason A) A dragon without an escape route is a lizard. NOT a dragon.


A wizard that can't block those routes isn't a wizard. Various dispels, force effects and anti plane shifting/teleport will do the trick.




Reason B) Blindsense technically works while sleeping no matter what. but as a house rule you may want to implement need for the dragon to make appropriate spot/listen checks except no penalty for sleeping (minimum +30 to check for old) either way walking on a pile of gold coins has to be bad for your rogues health as they skitter and scatter out of the range of the silence spell on the rogue as their movement also allerts said beast of utter destruction


You can have your character sleep with his eyes open, but he's still not going to see anything when he's asleep.



Reason 3) Caster lv 11 equals at least 3 Stoneskin. How come nobody considers a dragon will have spells cast on itself BEFORE combat? Buffed dragon with SR so dispell probably fails for you but it can dispell just fine. Dismissal for summons and such... the list goes on


Great that's less than 6 hours of stoneskin a day for 750GP a day. Yeah I'm sure the dragon's gonna do that.



Reason D) If you expect an old red w/ massive hoard to not have a couple of useful magic items available to it... you're sadly mistaken.


So is the party.



Reason X)+52 grapple and 200 ft fly speed... separate party,eat, rinse repeat. sure it takes a few rounds to build up speed but no wizard (first target) beats the grapple check required to cast the spell to escape unless its silented and stilled in which case the player deserves many kudos.


Ring of Freedom of movement is a STAPLE. Every single wizard should have it, precisly because grapple is so dangerous. Doesn't matter if you have +100000000 to grapple. Contingency as you wish as well for other situations, trigger feather fall and have the contingency be dimension door or teleport.



Last Reason) He who fights and flies away lives to kill you at a later date when you're not expecting it and its the most bloody vengeance ever to be wrought unto your mortal soul by anything less than that of the gods.


Smart parties don't let this happen. Scry the dragon to your content, grab a scale it dropped and cast nightmare on it every day until you find it. -10 to the will save, if it fails then it doesn't get arcane spells back for 24 hours, at which point you nightmare it again. Actually, just get 1 nightmare off and it's out of arcane spells, which lets you find it eaisily and hunt it down.




In closing, older dragons are listed WELL under their CR... if you kill a dragon at or above your level of ability then you either had some super lucky tide turning factor (half xp for kill in that case) which is usually cheese, or DM error... as in didn't play to any extent of full potential. Usually the second one leads to the first one.


Full Caster IS cheese. The only thing that keeps dragons from being totally dominated is their sorcerer levels.

13_CBS
2008-02-14, 10:55 PM
The above is true.

But level 7? Taking on an Old RED dragon?

I...I don't think they have a chance, except by maybe striking a deal with a nearby Silver or Gold...

sikyon
2008-02-14, 11:20 PM
The above is true.

But level 7? Taking on an Old RED dragon?

I...I don't think they have a chance, except by maybe striking a deal with a nearby Silver or Gold...

I concur this is the easiest way to do it, save cheese.

ashmanonar
2008-02-14, 11:32 PM
Ooh! Ghoul Touch (if you have access to it, which may not be possible).

We were leaving a Dwarven city (long story short, we are level 4/5/6, we have several people who can't come every week.)

A red dragon (only a juvenile, it was large) tried to do a flyby attack. It was just about 5 feet off the ground, whacked each of us (if we failed the reflex save) for about 20 hp.

I raged (Barb/Fighter/Tribal Protector) and made one attack with the Adamantine +1 Holy greataxe I just got. Subtract 25 hp.

Our Duskblade (yea, cheese, I know.) hit with a ghoul touch. Paralysis. Crit on the ranged touch, at least 9 rounds of paralysis.

We subdualed it down. Then the Duskblade "questioned" it.

>.> I choose not to know anything about it.

dyslexicfaser
2008-02-14, 11:44 PM
I doubt you could take it on face-to-face.

Do you have Minor Creation? Use it to create vast quantities of poisonous plant matter (Belladonna, one leaf of which in unaltered form can kill a grown human; how much would it take to kill an Old Red?), and find a way to feed it to the dragon. See what happens.

Find reinforcements. The local paladins, a roving hobgoblin band, whatever. Promise them whatever it takes: gold, land, status, women.. men. Whatever. Send them in. Find more dupes. Repeat.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-15, 02:25 AM
A wizard that can't block those routes isn't a wizard. Various dispels, force effects and anti plane shifting/teleport will do the trick.

I must apologize for not clarifying that as well as 1 or 2 counterable by magic means of escape, there should be 3 or 4 mundane means of escape. you can only cast so fast so its easy to wink away while you're distracted trying to bring down the back door on it or vice versa.


You can have your character sleep with his eyes open, but he's still not going to see anything when he's asleep.

Does not matter with blindsense actually. smell, thermal and movement can all potentially be involved in this ability. the rolls were merely as an in house means to give pc's the impression that they were about(and sadly a slight chance) to sneak up on a dragon. Oh yes and Darkstalker is truly the best answer.


Great that's less than 6 hours of stoneskin a day for 750GP a day. Yeah I'm sure the dragon's gonna do that.

So snippy...Dragon scry's on tunnels and casts long duration buffs prior to your entering, not every day. sorry for not clarifying.


So is the party.

true... no added comment necessary same as with the darkstalker feat except that i added one.


Ring of Freedom of movement is a STAPLE. Every single wizard should have it, precisly because grapple is so dangerous. Doesn't matter if you have +100000000 to grapple. Contingency as you wish as well for other situations, trigger feather fall and have the contingency be dimension door or teleport.

STAPLE for many, true but those foolish enough to not have one run the risk of not being able to cast once grapling... obviously there is some counter to every situation but you cant be prepared for everything try as you might.


Smart parties don't let this happen. Scry the dragon to your content, grab a scale it dropped and cast nightmare on it every day until you find it. -10 to the will save, if it fails then it doesn't get arcane spells back for 24 hours, at which point you nightmare it again. Actually, just get 1 nightmare off and it's out of arcane spells, which lets you find it eaisily and hunt it down.

dont forget to clean up after yourself...filthy scale droping dragons. oh and nondetection stands a good shot to stop your scrying if permanently on an item created by one with a higher cl than the dragon. So in retrospect smart dragonss don't let that happen either.


Full Caster IS cheese. The only thing that keeps dragons from being totally dominated is their sorcerer levels.

Yeah, i was basically trying to say the same thing about dragons but good on you for being up on your wizard cheese.

Sorry if i upset any avid dragon haters and slayers out there but i was really just trying to point out that in no way is it easy to defeat a dragon on par and is nigh impossible to do so at party lv 7 vs dragon cr 20

Any attempt to do so would be munchkining or at the verry least, would require far to much metagaming to ever be legal. BIG dragon... kinda scary... walk away now.

The_Snark
2008-02-15, 02:41 AM
Ooh! Ghoul Touch (if you have access to it, which may not be possible).

We were leaving a Dwarven city (long story short, we are level 4/5/6, we have several people who can't come every week.)

A red dragon (only a juvenile, it was large) tried to do a flyby attack. It was just about 5 feet off the ground, whacked each of us (if we failed the reflex save) for about 20 hp.

I raged (Barb/Fighter/Tribal Protector) and made one attack with the Adamantine +1 Holy greataxe I just got. Subtract 25 hp.

Our Duskblade (yea, cheese, I know.) hit with a ghoul touch. Paralysis. Crit on the ranged touch, at least 9 rounds of paralysis.

We subdualed it down. Then the Duskblade "questioned" it.

>.> I choose not to know anything about it.

Uh? I think your duskblade ignored just about every restriction on the Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) spell.

Firstly, target: one living humanoid. It doesn't work on a dragon at all.

Secondly, ranged touch? Ghoul touch is melee. I guess the duskblade could have been using Reach Spell, except that that's a fourth level spell and duskblades don't have those until level 13.

Thirdly, did the dragon not get a save? I know there's some debate about this, so this one is actually questionable, but the spell description says Fortitude negates. Not Fortitude negates (see text), not Fortitude partial, plain negates. Negates everything about the spell, as I see it. It goes on to specify a second save for the secondary targets, but I don't think that means that the first effect doesn't allow a save.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-15, 02:48 AM
without jumping into possibilities, a dragon's weakness is it's dexterity... dexterity damage is the way to go. If you are buds with it, just keep on chatting and surprise round him with some dexterity damage. Then its only a matter of time before you can cut off it's head.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-15, 03:33 AM
I must apologize for not clarifying that as well as 1 or 2 counterable by magic means of escape, there should be 3 or 4 mundane means of escape. you can only cast so fast so its easy to wink away while you're distracted trying to bring down the back door on it or vice versa.
Ideally, the dragon has no status between "ready to eat you" and "unable to take actions". Even if you run dragons who are so cowardly they'd Teleport away after you dispel them, the cleric can throw out a dispel and then the wizard can hit it with an arcane-reached Irresistible Dance.
In any case, it fleeing just means you take its hoard.
ETA: and that you've defeated it, barring it popping back in a few rounds later, and that's what Anticipate Teleport is for.



Does not matter with blindsense actually. smell, thermal and movement can all potentially be involved in this ability. the rolls were merely as an in house means to give pc's the impression that they were about(and sadly a slight chance) to sneak up on a dragon. Oh yes and Darkstalker is truly the best answer.
Suggesting that Blindsense wakes you up has no basis in the rules. Even if you're going to say that a sleeping creature can sense you with blindsense (which isn't stated), that doesn't mean it *wakes up*.

There's also teleporting in, Ethereal Jaunting in, and so on. The blindsense has a range of 60 feet, to boot, which means a dispel can be cast from outside that range and then the wizard can move in and hit the ranged touch (and GTFO via quickened or swift-action spell if he rolls a natural 1 or something) before the dragon gets to go.



So snippy...Dragon scry's on tunnels and casts long duration buffs prior to your entering, not every day. sorry for not clarifying.
The dragon scries on one tunnel at a time--when it's not sleeping, entertaining itself, or otherwise. I don't think dragons live their life in constant paranoia. Alarm spells are reasonable, of course, but rogues can find and disable those. It's also not reasonable for the dragon to use multiple buffs--especially costly buffs; dragons are greedy!--every time someone approaches it: the dragon is confident in its ability to eat people (non-player-characters don't have the PC "guarantee" of nearly-CR-appropriate encounters, after all).
The dragon's low CL means the buffs are easy to dispel in any case.


STAPLE for many, true but those foolish enough to not have one run the risk of not being able to cast once grapling... obviously there is some counter to every situation but you cant be prepared for everything try as you might.
The Ring is so potent, who *doesn't* have one at high levels?
Only the people who can cast the spell themselves and have it last all day then (like druids). They can even cast it on others before the party gets near the dragon.


dont forget to clean up after yourself...filthy scale droping dragons. oh and nondetection stands a good shot to stop your scrying if permanently on an item created by one with a higher cl than the dragon. So in retrospect smart dragonss don't let that happen either.
Nondetection at the dragon's CL isn't a barrier. It also has a GP cost. That same GP cost, combined with a high CL, makes a high-CL Nondetection item REALLY EXPENSIVE. It may be more than the dragon could reasonably spend from his horde; it's definitely going to be more than it *would*.
Besides which, "being loaded down with a whole bunch of useful items" had damn well better be accounted for by an Encounter Level increase.




Sorry if i upset any avid dragon haters and slayers out there but i was really just trying to point out that in no way is it easy to defeat a dragon on par and is nigh impossible to do so at party lv 7 vs dragon cr 20

Any attempt to do so would be munchkining or at the verry least, would require far to much metagaming to ever be legal. BIG dragon... kinda scary... walk away now.
Level 7 without horrible cheese? Yeah, no way.
Level 15+ party? It can get pretty easy.

Exceptions are made for dragons who are in an AMF, but Dragon In An AMF is what they term "totally broken"; if that's not okay for PCs, it's not okay for DMs.

Khanderas
2008-02-15, 03:35 AM
How do you know when it's asleep? Scrying and the like will only tell you trivial details like whether its eyes are closed, and whether it's snoring. And if it's not sleeping...
Does a Coup de Grais autokill really ? Seems kinda cheap for a creature covered in harder-then-iron scales, with the size of 3 minivans and hitpoints to match.
And if it isn't an autokill.... it will be a rogue vs a very angry dragon. NOT an even fight. Even if invisible (that wont help when the dragon does a 360 degree tailswipe.

Reel On, Love
2008-02-15, 03:40 AM
Let's see, Fighter (or something 7), 22 STR (buff!), Power Attack, +1 Scythe... 2d4 (5) + 1 + 14 = 20, x4 = 80 points of damage.

The dragon's odds of making a DC 90 Fort. save... 5%.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-15, 03:54 AM
Does a Coup de Grais autokill really ? Seems kinda cheap for a creature covered in harder-then-iron scales

Answer to Question 1: Yes, unless it is immune.

It isn't cheap, if someone where able to paralyze a bull while you sawed it's head off you would kill it... no matter how much stronger the bull would be in a fair fight.

If your talking about his scales on his neck, they still have to hit, and natural armor still applies.

Edit: I am not even sure if it would be metagaming to play towards the dragon's weakness, that is assuming that the party does the appropriate research and/or has sufficient knowledge of the dragons. In the real world you play toward your strengths and a tasks weaknesses, thats just how life is... can't really call it metagaming. And all dragons have the same weakness... dexterity damage. I am sure there is more than one way to get dex damage, poisons come to mind.

Then you just play toward your strengths... you don't have the hp, you don't have the fighting ability, most spells won't work... so attack when he is perceived to be the most vulnerable, slap some dispel magics for good measure, buy a scroll of force cage if you are worried about survival... get the tools you know are out there to help you.

The_Snark
2008-02-15, 04:03 AM
Even a 7th-level rogue with below-average Strength at that level will probably have a 95% chance of killing it with a scythe coup de grace. 2d4 (average 5) -1 (8 Str) times 4=16; add in 4d6 sneak attack (average 14), and you have a DC 40 Fortitude save, which an old red dragon makes on... a 20. Of course, if the rogue rolls poorly on damage they may be in trouble, but then again if they have a Strength bonus rather than a penalty it'll help make up for that.

A coup de grace is not exactly an auto-kill, but with a scythe it might as well be.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-15, 05:20 AM
Ideally, the dragon has no status between "ready to eat you" and "unable to take actions". Even if you run dragons who are so cowardly they'd Teleport away after you dispel them, the cleric can throw out a dispel and then the wizard can hit it with an arcane-reached Irresistible Dance.
In any case, it fleeing just means you take its hoard.
ETA: and that you've defeated it, barring it popping back in a few rounds later, and that's what Anticipate Teleport is for.

if severely threatened it's reasonable that a dragon scoots as a last resort. you get a portion of its hoard, whatever doesn't fit in its hoard gullet or isn't an item on it.


Suggesting that Blindsense wakes you up has no basis in the rules. Even if you're going to say that a sleeping creature can sense you with blindsense (which isn't stated), that doesn't mean it *wakes up*.

There's also teleporting in, Ethereal Jaunting in, and so on. The blindsense has a range of 60 feet, to boot, which means a dispel can be cast from outside that range and then the wizard can move in and hit the ranged touch (and GTFO via quickened or swift-action spell if he rolls a natural 1 or something) before the dragon gets to go.

if a successful listen check, highly penalized though it may be, allows a character to wake up it's reasonable to assume if a dragon senses you it can wake as well. And blindsense isn't dispellable as far as i know. so unless your rogue has the darkstalker feat, no dragon... except maybe an encased in ice hibernating white (for roleplay reasons), should ever be succeptable to a coup de grace at the start of combat. should that happen or any other super cheese be used, modify experience reward accordingly. as in 1 hit kill no dragon reaction cheese equals 10percent xp at most. fair and balanced due to cheese loot.


The dragon scries on one tunnel at a time--when it's not sleeping, entertaining itself, or otherwise. I don't think dragons live their life in constant paranoia. Alarm spells are reasonable, of course, but rogues can find and disable those. It's also not reasonable for the dragon to use multiple buffs--especially costly buffs; dragons are greedy!--every time someone approaches it: the dragon is confident in its ability to eat people (non-player-characters don't have the PC "guarantee" of nearly-CR-appropriate encounters, after all).
The dragon's low CL means the buffs are easy to dispel in any case.

Dragons are greedy, true, but that is second to being self-preservationists at all cost. not paranoid. watchful


Nondetection at the dragon's CL isn't a barrier. It also has a GP cost. That same GP cost, combined with a high CL, makes a high-CL Nondetection item REALLY EXPENSIVE. It may be more than the dragon could reasonably spend from his horde; it's definitely going to be more than it *would*.
Besides which, "being loaded down with a whole bunch of useful items" had damn well better be accounted for by an Encounter Level increase.

hypothetically, looting a foolish and greedy rogue's corpse is free. and as far as i can tell an item not used during the encounter but after to avoid scrying doesn't boost ECL since it doesn't affect the encounter. plus if it was soooooo easy to scry on dragons, everyone and their proverbial momma would then be after said dragon all the time.

it is pointless to keep thinking of... well i can do this or that as cheese to always win. well i can beat that with this... but then i can just do this................ two times of that is too much. everything is beatable. everything can beat anything on circumstance but it's just not likely so choose wisely. sometimes the best solution is avoidance and always maintain a healthy respect and fear of dangerous things like dragons

Voyager_I
2008-02-15, 06:49 AM
There are plenty of ways to kill Dragons, yes, but most of them aren't available to a 7th level party. Even if he wasn't a Dragon, an 11th level Sorcerer would be a respectable challenge for you guys (depending on relative optimization), with a pretty good chance of killing some party members. Now, put that potentially deadly encounter into a Gargantuan pile of fire and claws that has met you personally, probably has a decent read of your party (thanks to a massive Sense Motive, etc) and has every reason to except you to be angry at it. You probably wouldn't be the first people to try that, after all, so don't be surprised if it does something crazy like, say, following you, just to see how well you take his jokes. It's somewhere between 400 and 600 years old, so you can be pretty sure it's had to deal with the "little people trying to kill me while I'm asleep" scenario before.

Just for reference, an Old Red Dragon's breath weapon does 16d10 Fire damage, averaging out to about 88 in a 60 foot cone that can potentially cover your entire party. Your Fighter and Cleric probably have around 71 and 49 hit points respectively, while your Rogue's looking at a DC 31 Reflex save. In other words, if the Dragon decides at any time during the fight that you might somehow pose a threat, he will be able to kill however many of you he can fit in his Cone with one shot (which, in a narrow tunnel, could be all of you), with very good reliability.

On top of that, it has a reach advantage over your melee warrior and an Attack Bonus that's almost certainly higher than your Armor Class. Assuming it hits with all its attacks (which it most likely will), you're looking at a routine of 4d6+12 + (2d8+6)*2 + (2d6+6)*2 + (2d8+18), or an average of 109 damage with a Full Attack. And it can Snatch three of you in one turn, if it so chooses. On the bright side, it would only be grappling with a +32. It also flies.

Assuming you ever actually get a chance to attack the Dragon, you'll probably be needing twenties on everything that isn't a Touch Attack (which should be near-automatic hits). Furthermore, it has something in the neighborhood of 378 hit points, so you have basically no chance of damaging it to death outside of a Coup De Grace. No save, no SR ability damage is basically your only in-combat option, and your Wizards will likely have a single turn to disable it before it butchers you all (courtesy of its +0 to initiative).

So yeah, you're not beating this without major DM Fiat or all the cheese in France. Come back when you've doubled your levels, and maybe you can do it.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-15, 07:33 AM
i'd agree with the idea that you guys are toast.
i threw a CR7 red dragon against a level 6 gestalt party and they only won because their fighter had already killed its 3 half-dragon ogre offspring the day before so it was naturally scared a little of him.
toe to toe a dragon of that level could use powerattack for -5 and still hit with every attack on a 2 or more. it also had on mage armour as soon as they appeared.
i find dragon CR is a little low, in melee they are absolute monsters (rightly so i feel) but they're even worse from range once they get the right spells. that said i have never gone for a dragon-slaying adventure anyway.
i also do not allow stupid stuff like shivering touch.

wraith-strike using dragons would be disgusting

Charity
2008-02-15, 08:31 AM
As for alarms and such, I imagine Dragons wouldn't be above dominating various nasties to act as sentrys with some method of alerting him, creatures that could move through rock would be favourite I guess.
Sans gorganzola this would be an impossible task for level 7 characters I imagine.

sikyon
2008-02-15, 08:49 AM
I must apologize for not clarifying that as well as 1 or 2 counterable by magic means of escape, there should be 3 or 4 mundane means of escape. you can only cast so fast so its easy to wink away while you're distracted trying to bring down the back door on it or vice versa.

Fair enough. Mundane escape routes are forgotten all too eaisily.



Does not matter with blindsense actually. smell, thermal and movement can all potentially be involved in this ability. the rolls were merely as an in house means to give pc's the impression that they were about(and sadly a slight chance) to sneak up on a dragon. Oh yes and Darkstalker is truly the best answer.



Mm.... after re-reading I'll concur blindsense is on all the time.



So snippy...Dragon scry's on tunnels and casts long duration buffs prior to your entering, not every day. sorry for not clarifying.
Well, scry doesn't work on areas...




STAPLE for many, true but those foolish enough to not have one run the risk of not being able to cast once grapling... obviously there is some counter to every situation but you cant be prepared for everything try as you might.



I know, I'm just saying that ring of freedom of movement is one of the standard items any decent character will be carrying around. Even tanks should have it, as monster grapples tend to get obscene no matter how hard the monk tries to be good at them.




dont forget to clean up after yourself...filthy scale droping dragons. oh and nondetection stands a good shot to stop your scrying if permanently on an item created by one with a higher cl than the dragon. So in retrospect smart dragonss don't let that happen either.

Knock a few off it in combat :smallwink: or it sheds or something like that. Won't stop nightmare either, and eventually you'll beat nondetection with scrying.




Yeah, i was basically trying to say the same thing about dragons but good on you for being up on your wizard cheese.

Oh yeah, I didn't even mention metamagic rod - maximize timestop - scrolls of delayed blast fireball/cast it. Spend the 5th round of timestop to ready an action to cast timestop as soon as the current one ends, and repeat until dragon is dead.




Any attempt to do so would be munchkining or at the verry least, would require far to much metagaming to ever be legal. BIG dragon... kinda scary... walk away now.

Really? Ring of freedom of movement is common, nightmare is a smart idea to take down escaped enemies, and timestop + fireball is anything big and scary dead anyways.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-15, 08:56 AM
As for alarms and such, I imagine Dragons wouldn't be above dominating various nasties to act as sentrys with some method of alerting him, creatures that could move through rock would be favourite I guess.
Sans gorganzola this would be an impossible task for level 7 characters I imagine.

my favourite would be thoqqua (i think thats spelt correctly) because it has tremorsense and won't die in fire, therefore dragon can use its breath as much as it wants.anything fire immune would be good though.
plus nesting in a volcano, so the only way actually into its lair without the dragons 'secret way out' is by swimming through....oh 400 feet of lava...good luck with that!

Douglas
2008-02-15, 09:06 AM
Uh? I think your duskblade ignored just about every restriction on the Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) spell.

Firstly, target: one living humanoid. It doesn't work on a dragon at all.

Secondly, ranged touch? Ghoul touch is melee. I guess the duskblade could have been using Reach Spell, except that that's a fourth level spell and duskblades don't have those until level 13.

Thirdly, did the dragon not get a save? I know there's some debate about this, so this one is actually questionable, but the spell description says Fortitude negates. Not Fortitude negates (see text), not Fortitude partial, plain negates. Negates everything about the spell, as I see it. It goes on to specify a second save for the secondary targets, but I don't think that means that the first effect doesn't allow a save.
Fourthly, dragons are immune to magical paralysis. Even Hold Monster just fails, no save required.

Charity
2008-02-15, 09:10 AM
I think Thoqqua (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm) only get burrowing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#burrow), which doesn't allow them to go through stone... unless there is extra text in the MM, the computerSRD says no.

Although Thoqqua are excellent, My fav low level summon.

AslanCross
2008-02-15, 09:29 AM
Uh? I think your duskblade ignored just about every restriction on the Ghoul Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghoulTouch.htm) spell.

Firstly, target: one living humanoid. It doesn't work on a dragon at all.

Secondly, ranged touch? Ghoul touch is melee. I guess the duskblade could have been using Reach Spell, except that that's a fourth level spell and duskblades don't have those until level 13.

Thirdly, did the dragon not get a save? I know there's some debate about this, so this one is actually questionable, but the spell description says Fortitude negates. Not Fortitude negates (see text), not Fortitude partial, plain negates. Negates everything about the spell, as I see it. It goes on to specify a second save for the secondary targets, but I don't think that means that the first effect doesn't allow a save.

Furthermore, aren't dragons immune to paralysis?

Duke of URL
2008-02-15, 09:30 AM
Does a Coup de Grais autokill really ? Seems kinda cheap for a creature covered in harder-then-iron scales, with the size of 3 minivans and hitpoints to match.
And if it isn't an autokill.... it will be a rogue vs a very angry dragon. NOT an even fight. Even if invisible (that wont help when the dragon does a 360 degree tailswipe.

No, a coup de grace is not an auto-kill. Per the RAW, it is:


Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Khanderas
2008-02-15, 09:31 AM
Answer to Question 1: Yes, unless it is immune.

It isn't cheap, if someone where able to paralyze a bull while you sawed it's head off you would kill it... no matter how much stronger the bull would be in a fair fight.

If your talking about his scales on his neck, they still have to hit, and natural armor still applies.
I assumed that it was the sleeping scenario. Sawing though the neck will wake him up. Alternative then would be to (atleast almost) slice his whole head off in one go.
With dragonscales I dont see that happen. Even with a magical scythe (sides an axe is the only alternative that makes sense there) and str bonuses and the neck is perfectly still... I dont see that happening.

Yes ruleswise that is perfectly legal. But then why not go out and Coup de gras some trees ? They are standing pretty still too. Edit: Ok. trees are not subject to critical hits, But the dragon in the example is getting hit so hard his head flops off. Doesn't seem too far off to me to compare it to a treetrunk.

Now if we are talkingn to a paralyzed dragon yes, eventually you would get to the creamy center, but if it just asleep, you get one chance to get your scythe stuck in his neck before you are firebreathed to hell and back.

sikyon
2008-02-15, 09:33 AM
Furthermore, aren't dragons immune to paralysis?

Big debate if it's magical or all paralysis.

Voyager_I
2008-02-15, 09:44 AM
I assumed that it was the sleeping scenario. Sawing though the neck will wake him up. Alternative then would be to (atleast almost) slice his whole head off in one go.
With dragonscales I dont see that happen. Even with a magical scythe (sides an axe is the only alternative that makes sense there) and str bonuses and the neck is perfectly still... I dont see that happening.

Yes ruleswise that is perfectly legal. But then why not go out and Coup de gras some trees ? They are standing pretty still too.

Now if we are talkingn to a paralyzed dragon yes, eventually you would get to the creamy center, but if it just asleep, you get one chance to get your scythe stuck in his neck before you are firebreathed to hell and back.

CDG doesn't work like that. The rules are pretty clear cut, really. You get an automatic critical hit, and the thing has to Roll a Fortitude Save or Die vs a DC of 10 + Damage dealt. You can do it to a Dragon as easily as a Toad, and the Dragon's scales will take no part in the matter.

I'm sure you could come up with a rationalization for how that works on something big enough to eat you if you really wanted to.


Also, the Paralysis thing wasn't really a debate so much as a classic "Everyone in the Forum vs One Rogue Opinion" (and no, it wasn't Giacomo). It doesn't even matter, because everyone involved would agree that Ghoul Touch, being a paralysis effect, doesn't work on Dragons. That little sickening bit might, but not the rest. The question still remains as to how the Duskblade even managed to get it off, since the Dragon presumably Flyby Attacked them...

Voyager_I
2008-02-15, 09:50 AM
I assumed that it was the sleeping scenario. Sawing though the neck will wake him up. Alternative then would be to (atleast almost) slice his whole head off in one go.
With dragonscales I dont see that happen. Even with a magical scythe (sides an axe is the only alternative that makes sense there) and str bonuses and the neck is perfectly still... I dont see that happening.

Yes ruleswise that is perfectly legal. But then why not go out and Coup de gras some trees ? They are standing pretty still too.

Now if we are talkingn to a paralyzed dragon yes, eventually you would get to the creamy center, but if it just asleep, you get one chance to get your scythe stuck in his neck before you are firebreathed to hell and back.

CDG doesn't work like that. The rules are pretty clear cut, really. You get an automatic critical hit, and the thing has to Roll a Fortitude Save or Die vs a DC of 10 + Damage dealt. You can do it to a Dragon as easily as a Toad, and the Dragon's scales will take no part in the matter.

I'm sure you could come up with a rationalization for how that works on something big enough to eat you if you really wanted to.

Furthermore, Trees are not subject to Critical Hits or Coup de Graces :smalltongue:

Also, the Paralysis thing wasn't really a debate so much as a classic "Everyone in the Forum vs One Rogue Opinion" (and no, it wasn't Giacomo). It doesn't even matter, because everyone involved would agree that Ghoul Touch, being a paralysis effect, doesn't work on Dragons. That little sickening bit might, but not the rest. The question still remains as to how the Duskblade even managed to get it off, since the Dragon presumably Flyby Attacked them...

its_all_ogre
2008-02-15, 09:56 AM
i think they're described as burning their way through rock with their intense heat (thoqqua this is btw) however i never used them this way, they were just lying in the shallower parts of a lava filled cave....awaiting pcs to come within range.
it was just my instant idea.
of course the best guards would be half-dragons. now a truly evil one would be a (twisted) red dragon that mates with a hydra to create a 12 headed half-dragon cryo-hydra (you'd need some pretty inventive storyline)
immune fire and cold, with fire and cold breath weapons....
party all geared up with fire immunity would get a shock!
or for the truly evil dm shocker lizard half-dragons with their lightning shock!
(no rulebooks to hand don't know if these would work...worth a thought though!)

Charity
2008-02-15, 10:55 AM
Top notch evil DMness there Ogre, (I like it) though I would go with Earth elementals, when piles of rocks and the walls start attacking you, you know you're in trouble... and I doubt they need sleep or much in the way of feeding.
... Are spectres immune to dominate? they would make excellent sentrys.

I don't practice evil DMness with my players, they have trouble enough staying alive with me warning them of the dangers, let alone springing suprises on them all over the show.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-15, 01:49 PM
Rise above it. for a party of level 7 they may as well take on a god as try to take on an old red. Sure there are cheestastic ways to try it but if the DM plays it to its Int you may as well run your characters through a shredder. Just walk away, if it REALLY got on your nerves come back in ten levels and kick its ass, otherwise you're Roy taking on Xykon all by your lonesome hundreds of feet in the air without any sneakiness. :smallfrown: And then you write up new characters.

Krusty Kobold
2008-02-15, 06:46 PM
Well, scry doesn't work on areas...

Knock a few off it in combat :smallwink: or it sheds or something like that. Won't stop nightmare either, and eventually you'll beat nondetection with scrying.

yes but minions are scryable... i was trying to be brief. (thanks to those who mentioned minions keeping a lookout, also valid tactic)

i was joking about cleaning up scales and giving you a quiet good call. but i also forgot scrying gets a will save too which the DC at 10 + 4(spell lv) + 7(high-ish int/cha mod) + 10 (dragon scale) is 31 which an old red passes 70 percent of the time so hopefully non-detect fills in the other 30


I know, I'm just saying that ring of freedom of movement is one of the standard items any decent character will be carrying around. Even tanks should have it, as monster grapples tend to get obscene no matter how hard the monk tries to be good at them.

I am used to and tend to prefer low magic item campaigns so the concept of a standard anything magic in those worlds is shaky at best. i suppose in more powerladen campaigns everyone can be permanently slippery but im just not used to it. i did not know.


Oh yeah, I didn't even mention metamagic rod - maximize timestop - scrolls of delayed blast fireball/cast it. Spend the 5th round of timestop to ready an action to cast timestop as soon as the current one ends, and repeat until dragon is dead.

i dont usually see metamagic rods in light magic item campaigns not to mention that the method described is total cheese and nets 10 percent xp in my book for making an encounter far too easy. metamagic rods are near broken as is, i still think you shouldn't be able to metamagic outside your spell levels


Really? Ring of freedom of movement is common, nightmare is a smart idea to take down escaped enemies, and timestop + fireball is anything big and scary dead anyways.

as for nightmare...allows the same save as scrying +1. oh and unless you're a long lived species like elf.. i don't think dragons technically need to sleep until after your dead. rest and sleep differ, technically. but i think that's just me being cruel and unusual.

the munckining / metagaming comment was directed at lv 7 party vs cr 20 old red and even trying to think of a plausible way to beat it and how you should really just be happy you were not served extra-crispy

lv20 party vs cr 20 anything will almost always tip in party favor. my schpeal is just the long way of saying that a dragon, especially a red, is more likely to be nearly a coin toss. they just tend to be a little more dangerous than some high cr counterparts is all.

GryffonDurime
2008-02-15, 08:11 PM
Rise above it. for a party of level 7 they may as well take on a god as try to take on an old red. Sure there are cheestastic ways to try it but if the DM plays it to its Int you may as well run your characters through a shredder.

See, now, therein lies the rub.

This is a juvenile old red dragon. This particular dragon is sophomoric to the extreme, and has about as much common sense as a jar of mayonnaise. Therein, I believe, lies the party's best chance.

Besides which, I'm not going to take him on right now. I'm just going to find a Scroll of Glibness, and spend an afternoon chatting up everyone in the nearby city-state about rumors of the old red dragon who's plotting against the Invincible Overlord.