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View Full Version : Why is UMD considered so OP?



loopy
2008-02-14, 08:56 PM
I'm still a fairly new player, currently using a level 7 Human Rogue/Assassin(custom Dragonslayer variant), who duel-wields wands. He isn't particularly optomised (mainly thanks to me not knowing which particular feats to get) and he isn't exactly head-and-shoulders stronger than the party either.

However, recently I was dropped into a pit with a CR7 black dragon while on half health. Luckily I had a cats grace/blur effect on me from a previous fight, and plenty of health potions, so I didn't die instantly. I'm fairly sure the intent of the DM was to have the rest of the party rescue me while I avoided the dragon.

By the time the rest of the party had opened the trapdoor, the dragon was sitting dead on -64 hp (8d6 lightning wand + half again due to lightning weakness + 4d6 sneak attack damage) out of an original 110 and I was more or less unscathed.

This led me to wonder if this was the reason UMD is considered so cheesy? If not, why is it? Does anyone have any UMD-overpowered related stories? If so, please share.

martyboy74
2008-02-14, 08:59 PM
It's overpowered as a side effect of the overpoweredness of magic in D&D. If wielding magic is the most powerful thing in D&D, what's the next best thing? Being able to emulate that ability. UMD makes all classes more powerful, because there's no one class that has full access to all spell lists.

Nebo_
2008-02-14, 09:07 PM
By the time the rest of the party had opened the trapdoor, the dragon was sitting dead on -64 hp (8d6 lightning wand + half again due to lightning weakness + 4d6 sneak attack damage) out of an original 110 and I was more or less unscathed.

You can't sneak attack with lightning bolt.

If you use UMD well, it means you're always prepared, like a wizard. Keep scrolls and wands of useful spells ready at all times and you should always have the right tool for the job.

BRC
2008-02-14, 09:08 PM
Alright, Imagine this
Imagine a rogue, only they also have accsess to every spell list, on top of their abilities as a rogue, they also don't need any stat besides charisma and some skill points to get accsess to these spells, oh yes, and they suffer no arcane spell failure.

Woah, that sounds preety overpowered right, well what that is is your character, a rogue with UMD, and in some ways more powerful than a wizard without.

loopy
2008-02-14, 09:28 PM
Ah, thanks guys, especially BRK. I guess I didn't notice because I've only been using direct-damage wands, and our party doesn't have a blaster.

Party:
Rogue/Assassin (Me)
Bard
Cleric
Sorceror/Wizard/Whatever the dual-PRC is, who mainly focuses on CC.

And I didn't know you couldn't Sneak attack with lightning bolt. I thought you could sneak attack with spells like you can with ranged weapons as long as you are withing 30ft.

However, thanks for clearing up the OP aspect, though is it still massively overpowered if I only use one type of wand (Say, direct damage only, or whatever)? As I have no desire to eclipse my party.

Tequila Sunrise
2008-02-14, 09:40 PM
You can sneak attack with spells within 30 feet that require attack rolls. So scorching ray yes, lightning bolt no. And btw, was the dragon unique in any way because black dragons are not be default extra vulnerable to lightning.

TS

Worira
2008-02-14, 09:47 PM
I'm not sure how you were getting sneak attacks anyway. Blur doesn't give you them.

serow
2008-02-14, 09:49 PM
And I didn't know you couldn't Sneak attack with lightning bolt. I thought you could sneak attack with spells like you can with ranged weapons as long as you are withing 30ft.If your spell requires an attack roll and your target has been denied its Dex bonus to AC and you're within 30ft, then sure, Sneak Attack all the way! :smallbiggrin:

loopy
2008-02-14, 09:53 PM
You can sneak attack with spells within 30 feet that require attack rolls. So scorching ray yes, lightning bolt no. And btw, was the dragon unique in any way because black dragons are not be default extra vulnerable to lightning.

TS

Well, it may have been a unique black dragon, because the DM described the lightning damage doing more visible harm to it than the Scorching Ray wand I'd been using previously.


I'm not sure how you were getting sneak attacks anyway. Blur doesn't give you them.

I actually used improved feint ("Look over there, my reinforcements are here!") to deny the dex bonus. Blur was just so I didn't get clobbered by melee attacks.

Collin152
2008-02-14, 09:53 PM
If your spell requires an attack roll and your target has been denied its Dex bonus to AC and you're within 30ft, then sure, Sneak Attack all the way! :smallbiggrin:

Lightning bolt requires no attack roll.

Douglas
2008-02-14, 09:59 PM
By RAW feinting only works for melee attacks. So, there's another reason why you shouldn't have gotten sneak attacks on those lightning bolts unless your DM houseruled differently.

But, back to the original question, it's considered powerful because it can give spellcasting, the most powerful thing in the game, to anyone. It is particularly frowned upon in many optimization discussions around here because it a) burns through wealth much faster than just about anything else and b) is in many cases not something the class in question is "supposed" to be doing (ie, Giacomo's Monk with maxed out cross-class UMD).

loopy
2008-02-14, 10:07 PM
Yeah, the Imp Feint would be a house rule, as a feint is really just "a distracting or deceptive maneuver" which could be pretty much anything, if you think about it. My DM seems happy as long as I keep creating new and exciting feints to use against my opponents.

BRC
2008-02-14, 10:11 PM
Even if you only use damage spells it's still overpowered. What most wizards do is just blasting things anyway. Even though you don't get abunch of other nifty stuff like buffs, Ive never heard anybody say "I want to play a wizard so I can buff people and cast Animate Rope". And you still can do that, just buy a wand of those spells.
Also, you can't sneak attack with lightning bolt.

loopy
2008-02-14, 10:15 PM
Also, you can't sneak attack with lightning bolt.


You can sneak attack with spells within 30 feet that require attack rolls. So scorching ray yes, lightning bolt no.


You can't sneak attack with lightning bolt.

So I hear... :smallbiggrin:

Hario
2008-02-14, 10:28 PM
UMD makes all classes more powerful, because there's no one class that has full access to all spell lists.
Artificer, though yes through UMD. Warlock after lvl 12, same way, just more messy. Archivist is pretty darn close to having all spells

Telonius
2008-02-15, 09:55 AM
Well, it may have been a unique black dragon, because the DM described the lightning damage doing more visible harm to it than the Scorching Ray wand I'd been using previously.


Sounds like somebody used a Mithral dragon (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Adult_Mithral_Dragon_(Metal-Clad_Brass_Dragon)). (Base creature would have been a Black Dragon instead of a Bronze). Either that or the DM screwed up and thought Black Dragons were vulnerable to electricity.

Burley
2008-02-15, 10:25 AM
If you want to sneak attack with a Lightning Bolt wand, there is some rule somewhere about melee attacks with a wand. Melee touch attack that deals 1d6 damage+the effect of the wand. It might actually be a feat, and I think it might expend two charges instead of one, but you'll get your sneak attack + wand damage from a melee touch attack, which (per the rules in Complete Arcane) applies to weapon finesse, if you're Dex heavy...
Can anybody give the feat name, or page number if it's just a rule? I'm going from memory and a pocket full of miracles.

SpikeFightwicky
2008-02-15, 11:30 AM
I'm still a fairly new player, currently using a level 7 Human Rogue/Assassin(custom Dragonslayer variant), who duel-wields wands. He isn't particularly optomised (mainly thanks to me not knowing which particular feats to get) and he isn't exactly head-and-shoulders stronger than the party either.

However, recently I was dropped into a pit with a CR7 black dragon while on half health. Luckily I had a cats grace/blur effect on me from a previous fight, and plenty of health potions, so I didn't die instantly. I'm fairly sure the intent of the DM was to have the rest of the party rescue me while I avoided the dragon.

By the time the rest of the party had opened the trapdoor, the dragon was sitting dead on -64 hp (8d6 lightning wand + half again due to lightning weakness + 4d6 sneak attack damage) out of an original 110 and I was more or less unscathed.

This led me to wonder if this was the reason UMD is considered so cheesy? If not, why is it? Does anyone have any UMD-overpowered related stories? If so, please share.

Here's what I noticed:

1) Wand of Lightning Bolts (8th level) = 18,000 gold (Major Magic Item)
Expected Wealth of a 7th level character = 19,000 gold

That wand takes up 95% of the cash you should have at your level (and theoretically, 7th level characters shouldn't - in general - have access to major magic items). If you have alot of other equipment, then it's sort of your DM's fault for giving some very powerful magic items.

2) No sneak attack... it's been mentioned ad nauseum, so I won't re-iterate.

3) Reflex saving throw VS a magic wand lightning bolt = 14
Reflex save bonus of a Juvenile Black dragon (that's the one with 110 HP) = +8
So he only fails on a 5 or lower. Statistically, he should take half damage on 3 out of 4 lightning bolts.

All in all, it looks like the main problem was:
A) The DM either gave out or allowed to powerful a magic item for your level.
B) The spell rules weren't really followed very well and the wand acted even more powerful than it should have been.

Riffington
2008-02-15, 06:17 PM
Just to clarify, it's only overpowered if the DM gives out excessive magic items (such as allowing you WBL to commission whatever items you want). This board seems to assume this, since it's simplest in the abstract.

But if your DM gives out items that he thinks are fun (or randomly) and doesn't let you buy unlimited cheese, then Use Magic Device is cool but not overpowered at all.

tyckspoon
2008-02-15, 06:28 PM
If you want to sneak attack with a Lightning Bolt wand, there is some rule somewhere about melee attacks with a wand. Melee touch attack that deals 1d6 damage+the effect of the wand. It might actually be a feat, and I think it might expend two charges instead of one, but you'll get your sneak attack + wand damage from a melee touch attack, which (per the rules in Complete Arcane) applies to weapon finesse, if you're Dex heavy...
Can anybody give the feat name, or page number if it's just a rule? I'm going from memory and a pocket full of miracles.

Wandstrike, Complete Arcane. It's pretty useless, in large part because it specifically excludes bonus damage from things like Sneak Attack. If you want to Sneak Attack with a wand spell, get a wand of Acid Splash or Ray of Frost or one of the 1st level Lesser Orb of (X) spells.

TK-Squared
2008-02-15, 06:40 PM
Hey guys, can I sneak attack with a Lightning Bolt?

Cuddly
2008-02-15, 06:41 PM
Just to clarify, it's only overpowered if the DM gives out excessive magic items (such as allowing you WBL to commission whatever items you want). This board seems to assume this, since it's simplest in the abstract.

But if your DM gives out items that he thinks are fun (or randomly) and doesn't let you buy unlimited cheese, then Use Magic Device is cool but not overpowered at all.

I roll a lot of random treasure (well, I let my players do it), and they find quite a few scrolls and wands. 3/4 of the party can use them, since we've got a CoDzilla and Batman, but CoDzilla is busy buffing/being a dire lion, and the wizard spams save-or-lose, so the scrolls don't get used. If there was a UMD char who could put those items to use in combat, it would be a lot better, since that would increase the number of casters, and remove some of their WBL so they could roll more of it.

Roland St. Jude
2008-02-15, 08:09 PM
Hey guys, can I sneak attack with a Lightning Bolt?

I've submitted this question to Wizards Customer Service. We'll have to wait and see what they say.

UserClone
2008-02-15, 08:29 PM
Nay, for it does not require an attack roll.

Saph
2008-02-15, 08:40 PM
UMD's very useful, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered (cheesy rules abuses aside).

You need to be able to hit a DC 20 check every time for it to be reliably effective in combat, which requires a fair bit of investment. It also costs money (lots of money, if you go for anything beyond a 1st- or 2nd-level spell).

By the time you have enough skill bonus to be able to succeed on the check every time, and enough money to be able to afford whatever scrolls and wands you like, you'll probably be at a high enough level that the skillmonkeys will need UMD to have any chance of keeping up with the casters anyway.

- Saph

Cuddly
2008-02-15, 08:41 PM
A level of exemplar is a pretty damn solid choice for any skill-monkey, though the reqs are a little stiff.

Kizara
2008-02-15, 08:52 PM
I've submitted this question to Wizards Customer Service. We'll have to wait and see what they say.

And who says mods don't have a sense of humor?

Starbuck_II
2008-02-16, 10:00 AM
UMD's very useful, but I wouldn't say it's overpowered (cheesy rules abuses aside).

You need to be able to hit a DC 20 check every time for it to be reliably effective in combat, which requires a fair bit of investment. It also costs money (lots of money, if you go for anything beyond a 1st- or 2nd-level spell).

By the time you have enough skill bonus to be able to succeed on the check every time, and enough money to be able to afford whatever scrolls and wands you like, you'll probably be at a high enough level that the skillmonkeys will need UMD to have any chance of keeping up with the casters anyway.

- Saph

By level 12, my Warlock can reliably hit DC 34. Take 10 ability + 15 ranks + 4 (18 Cha)= 29 so far. Get Skill Focus for +3 and Magucal Aotitude (I'm going for Wild Mage) so +2= total 34.
Meaning, I hit caster level 14 scrolls without a issue (7th level spells).