Artimis Enterai vs. Zuko, a battle of the antiheros [Archive]

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-14, 10:18 PM

I KNEW this was coming! I was half thinking of an Entreri vs Obould one though,

Tricky...this time my principles let me argue for both characters (Entreri is neither angst nor an elf). So here's my thoughts on different factors.

Entreri doesn't have an explicitly anti-fire item, though that glove supposedly protects from magic. Firebending on the other hand is a type of martial arts that produces fire though, not magic.

Zuko's swords are (as far as I know) nonmagical. Nothing on the level of Charon's Claw or the Vampiric Dagger.

Both are good at the close quarters of in-city fighting. No issue there.

Entreri is very cold and emotionless while Zuko can get pretty bad tempered.

Firebending is an entirely new fighting style from what Entreri is used to, even if he's fought monks before.

Entreri fights dirty (didn't he once spit dirty water in Drizzt's eyes?) whereas Zuko is pretty honourable.

Zuko has a lot of power by third season. He fights evenly with Katara under the full moon, Aang, Azula and other ridiculously strong characters, beating them or at least drawing.

Those are my first thoughts.

Anteros

2008-02-14, 10:27 PM

Entreri's gauntless does work on psionics btw. I'm going to say no on fire-bending though, unless they ever specifically call it magic in the show. That said, he killed more than his share of mages and other things with access to flinging fire around before aquiring the gauntlet.

I think the straight on fight will go to Entreri just because he has a habit of throwing knives at people who display "magical" tendencies, and I don't think Zuko is fast enough to block a knife in the throat.

How quick/agile is Zuko? I've seen several episodes with him, but I haven't watched the entire series so I'm not really an expert.

As a side note, is this series really worth watching? The times I've seen it I have found it to be mildly interesting, but the characters annoy me.

EvilElitest

2008-02-14, 10:32 PM

Hmm...this is really important actually. Does Artemis have his magic-absorbing gauntlet still and does it work on bending? If he does thats a heavy tilt in his favor. I'm inclined to believe it wouldn't work on bending (doesn't work on psionics after all) but just clarifying. Also is it just the mind-set he has in Servants of the Shard or is he that old too? (He does admit that he has begun to slow down with age so thats pretty important.)

1. Yes he does have the magic absorbing gauntlet (would that work for bending? I think so) and the Carrion's Claw. However he also has his normal unholy saber and long sword if it ever comes to thtat
2. No, body wise he has been corrupted by the shade but thinks like he does in Servent of the Shard (less angst, more focused, maybe i should say the Halflings' Gem?)
Good questions

As a side note, is this series really worth watching? The times I've seen it I have found it to be mildly interesting, but the characters annoy me.
I'll level with you, i am an extremely harsh critic. I'm an Elitest (different from an elitist mind you) and i'm very harsh on most shows when it comes to quality. I also tend to distrust anime (death note season 1, Kenshin OVA and FMA are still amazing however). however i really wanted to watch an American anime and it was quite good. The first season is like a children's show with a lot of good ideas and is well rounded, if you can stomach the annoying bits (like aang) it is quite good. The second season is good in its own right, i can't say without spoiling it, but at the end i was able to say "wow, that was very good, even as an adult show". The third season is still quite good (a bit to much angst for my taste but..) it is very good as a normal show, amazing as a children's show

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EE

Anteros

2008-02-14, 10:38 PM

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-14, 10:39 PM

How quick/agile is Zuko? I've seen several episodes with him, but I haven't watched the entire series so I'm not really an expert.

There was one scene where he ran on a wall to avoid a trap. He's highly skilled at stealth techniques. And when fighting the highly skilled Yu Yan archer team he cut their arrows out of the air.

EvilElitest

2008-02-14, 10:44 PM

Entreri essentially gains "immortality" in one of the side stories to the main novels, so age isn't really an issue for him.

Also, I don't think Entreri has a saber any more EE, I think it's just Charon's claw (longsword) and his life draining dagger.

Also, the reason I said that Enteri's gauntlet couldn't stop fire bending is because we can't know either way, and it's no fun if they aren't somewhat evenly matched. (Let's admit it, without his firebending skills this is as one sided as Zuko vs Drizzt.)

1. Alright
2. Both characters have weapons even if the've never had them at the same time.
3. Alright good point, though a person who could argue for Zuko's victory with the glove would be pretty impressive

I wish i had access to avatar via internet, i could show some of Zuko's more elaborate moves

For weapon/fight style expert, yes you have permission to point out the absurdities of his style and use that to your advantage, but expect the other side to do the same
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Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-14, 10:55 PM

I don't think the gauntlet would work anyway. Theres nothing to suggest bending is magical in the FR sense. As for the city-fighting Artemis is far more likely to pull hit-and-run tactics there since...ya know...Charon's Claw suits something like that far better then normal with the ash screens it can make.

As for dodging a dagger to the throat...Zuko could do it. Especially in a more...level playing field where he can see Artemis coming. Of the two Zuko IS more of a straight-forward combat kind of person and Artemis does seem to prefer to attack from hiding...and to fight completely dirty.

EDIT: It's not too hard to argue. Fire bending could be used...well almost all the time since I'm not sure if the firebending is dependent upon the actual movements or exertion. Aside from that the gauntlet CAN only absorb so much energy before breaking so, while it may take a lot, Zuko could overload it.

Also, I believe they mention it in Servants of the Shard, but a magical effect needs to be targeted on the gauntlet wielder in order for it to be trapped and reversed and such. I believe the example used included it could suck up magic missiles but a fireball would work normally against Artemis.

EvilElitest

2008-02-14, 10:57 PM

through Artimis's fighting is not to underestimated in a straight fight, and he tends to have a more level head then Zuko
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Fuzzy_Juan

2008-02-14, 11:02 PM

Well...as far as we know, in the Avatar universe there are only a few firebenders stronger than Zuko...

Firelord Ozai, Azula, Jong Jong, and Iroh...of those...Zuko has potentially passed all of them due to his encounter with the Firebending Masters...except perhaps Iroh.

Feats of crazyness...firewhips that can slice through stone, flaming bursts that can rival Elminster's fireballs...and he can keep that up all day it seems...Only thing he hasn't masterd yet is lightning...and after meeting the masters...he likely will have that as well, and maybe even some more tricks. Aside from his impresive bending, he is a master martial artist, and a superb swordsman in fantastic shape. Able to stand toe to toe with some of the finest soldiers without resorting to bending...including the aforementioned slicing arrows out of the air from superior archers.

Entreri...pretty much everything Zuko has except the bending, but he wields magical weapons and has alot of experience against mages.

Plot immunity aside...the more I think about it...the more I think it could go either way. Entreri's experience and magic items matches Zuko's advantage due to bending...wh knows.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-14, 11:04 PM

I don't see why everyone is so down on Zuko's skills...I'm not saying they're necessarily better than Entreri's but hell, he once knocked out a soldier just by unsheathing a dao. He's very good with them. And he's shown great hand to hand abilities and stealth skills and things like that.

EDIT You know, maybe I should post faster so I don't have to correct myself. Apparently NOT everybody is down on Zuko's skills.

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-14, 11:04 PM

through Artimis's fighting is not to underestimated in a straight fight, and he tends to have a more level head then Zuko
from
EE

Artemis CAN be overcome with fury and such though...it just takes more effort is all...and I don't think it adversely affects his fighting much...if at all.

Anteros

2008-02-14, 11:14 PM

There was one scene where he ran on a wall to avoid a trap. He's highly skilled at stealth techniques. And when fighting the highly skilled Yu Yan archer team he cut their arrows out of the air.

Alright, in that case I'll concede that a thrown dagger wouldn't end it.

Another question. Has Zuko ever done anything to show he could match Entreri in melee?

EvilElitest

2008-02-14, 11:17 PM

Artemis CAN be overcome with fury and such though...it just takes more effort is all...and I don't think it adversely affects his fighting much...if at all.

it makes him irrational, but doesn't hinder his strength

And Anteros, he has blocked arrows form expert archers, fought groups of marshal artists, and defeated Aang but he hasn't been able defeat him. So against a single foe, no but has demonstrated sword play and marshal arts
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Mr. Scaly

2008-02-14, 11:19 PM

Alright, in that case I'll concede that a thrown dagger wouldn't end it.

Another question. Has Zuko ever done anything to show he could match Entreri in melee?

Aside from his skill in both armed and unarmed combat? He's good, but considering how different the worlds they're from, it's kind of hard to compare. I think Entreri once marveled at how well drow wielded two weapons of the same length at once, which is something Zuko does on a regular basis.

Was there any instance in particular you were looking for?

EvilElitest

2008-02-14, 11:22 PM

Anyone have video clips?
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Rogue 7

2008-02-15, 12:03 AM

Zuko vs. Jet, one of his main swordfights. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQtCqfbvfM4) Speeded up a bit, but you get the gist. Only other major swordfight is that bit in "Zuko alone". Couldn't find any clips of that.

Zuko vs. Zhao, firebending. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUMgtABkDRE&feature=related)

Zuko and Azula vs. Aang and Katara. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7npmDn5yY3I&feature=related) Serious firepower, to say the least.

Anteros

2008-02-15, 12:58 AM

Well, I watched that first video and thought "maybe he can keep up with Entreri after all..." Then I read where the author said he doubled the speed.

From what I've seen, Zuko is no slouch...but Entreri should still eat him up in melee. When you add in the fire bending it's much more even.

Rogue 7

2008-02-15, 01:16 AM

Take a look at the last one. He's throwing around massive amounts of fire there, it's absolutely epic.

Adumbration

2008-02-15, 01:29 AM

Oh dear, I can imagine one situation... Where Entreri tosses Zuko the Charon's Claw. Soul-suckety goodness!

Anyway, I don't know enough about Zuko to argue on this one.

Haruspex

2008-02-15, 06:45 AM

I also don't know much about Zuko, except one or two episodes where he seems kind of conflicted. Like a bad guy trying to be good. And with something to prove. His fighting skills seem pretty good, though I got the impression that his firebending is his true edge. Maybe I'm wrong.

Artemis on the other hand has no such innate magic to back him up. He does have a life-draining dagger, Charon's Claw, and the gauntlet. I don't have the books with me, but did Charon's Claw have some kind of corrosive effect? I'm not so sure now.

About throwing the Claw at Zuko, it depends on how 'strong' Zuko is. Kane picked up the sword with no problem, but then he was a grandmaster monk who even dragons were afraid of. I don't know if Zuko is at that level.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-15, 08:38 AM

EvilElitest

2008-02-15, 11:21 AM

thank you mr. Scaly, just one thing i want to point out, Zuko is good but it seems to me that the people he fights are a little too flashy. Any fighter experts know more?
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Querzis

2008-02-15, 11:44 AM

I think this clip between Zuko and Jet is much closer to normal speed. Hard to see much though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMz1jE4JVSg&feature=related

And here's that big fight scene in 'Zuko Alone'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtpJnBOdMgE&feature=related

Judging from this, Zuko is totally dead against Entreri in melee thats for sure. Entreri is the guy who attack so fast you have trouble seeing his weapons while Zuko got trouble evading rocks. I give Zuko ten seconds against the mean killing machine in melee (which is still a lot better then most warriors could do)...but Entreri could get killed before he get in melee. As long as his gauntlet cant absorb Zuko fire he could be toast before he can attack him.

I'm still giving it to Entreri because with his speed and reflexe I'm pretty sure he'll manage to get in melee...hell, even if Zuko roast him, I can totally see Entreri still running after Zuko even if he is on fire and regenerating thanks to his dagger.

By the way, battle of the antiheros? Even in Servants of the Shards, Entreri is still pretty much a villian and I would argue that Zuko is a hero. Hes just a hero who is not on the same side as the protagonist.

Rogue 7

2008-02-15, 01:44 PM

Zuko's probably the best "melee" bender we've seen on the show. Heck, none of the other benders we've seen ever used weapons. And he can still kick nine shades of hell out of Aang's ass with firebending. If he's seen this guy fight at all previously, he's not going to get into melee- he'll be keeping his distance and attempting to roast the guy into a cinder.

Azerian Kelimon

2008-02-15, 02:00 PM

In my opinion, if Entreri can get remotely close to Zuko, or can make him touch the Boatmaster's claw, Zuko loses. Nothing I've seen from him suggests he can beat such a powerful artifact. So, the question is, can Entreri take enough damage and dodge well enough to get close?

In my opinion, yes. I believe he has Evasion (The ability that lets you avoid all damage if you succeed on a roll) and a pretty high Reflex roll. Unless Zuko can generate something that cover every bit of an area, the odds are stacked against him. And considering the amount of cover in Helm's deep, he loses there. In Termina, he might have a better chance, though.

Anteros

2008-02-15, 02:15 PM

It says in one of the books that the gauntlet can only absorb magic that is directly aimed at Entreri. Since Zuko's style is much more "hitting a large area with fire" the gauntlet wont do anything. (Although it does absorb a lightning bolt in one of the books. Also, what does it say about Entreri's speed if he can catch lightning?

I think it all comes down to whether or not Zuko can keep Entreri at range (or whether he would even know to try.) In my opinion Entreri wins, but I'm sure someone will come along and contradict me soon.

Also, I just noticed this...Zuko keeps trying to attack with the wrong side of his sword in that video. (look at around 1 minute in.) A master swordsman he aint.

Rogue 7

2008-02-15, 02:50 PM

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-15, 03:10 PM

I'm still giving it to Entreri because with his speed and reflexe I'm pretty sure he'll manage to get in melee...hell, even if Zuko roast him, I can totally see Entreri still running after Zuko even if he is on fire and regenerating thanks to his dagger.

Point of Fact: Entreri can only regenerate whenever he STABS somebody with his dagger and focuses on draining their life-force away. He uses that ability less in combat and more to heal AFTER combat or for intimidation then anything else.

And just touching Charon's Claw isn't enough for the whole....sucking the skin off your face and burning bit, thats actually trying to wield it. Unless Artemis is handing his sword over to Zuko it's an equal non-issue. Zuko may catch a disease by being cut by Charon's Claw, but that's something to deal with after either fight.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-15, 05:04 PM

EE, I know nothing about sword fighting myself. Some of the moves on TV are doubtlessly exaggerated but that's just for visual effect, on the viewer's behalf.

Also, I'm pretty sure Firebending isn't magic. Wikipedia describes it as a form of martial arts...that makes fire...

Azerian Kelimon

2008-02-15, 05:16 PM

Yeah. And swordsages can't do supernatural maneuvers, The Godfather is a samaritan, and Harry Potter is a muggle.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-15, 05:53 PM

Sarcasm will get you nowhere.

Querzis

2008-02-15, 05:56 PM

Point of Fact: Entreri can only regenerate whenever he STABS somebody with his dagger and focuses on draining their life-force away. He uses that ability less in combat and more to heal AFTER combat or for intimidation then anything else.

But I'm talking about after combat. I'm not saying his dagger will regenerate him while he is on fire, just that people on fire become useless mainly because of the pain. Even if hes on fire, a guy like Entreri will still run toward Zuko and try to kill him. When you can regenerate from pretty much everything by killing a random civilian, you dont care about the wound inflicted in battle as much as just winning the battle. Beside, he just have to kill Zuko WITH the dagger and the fire wont finish him off. Focusing on draining their life-force might help but since Regis drained the life-force of a drow warrior without even knowing about the dagger power, I really doubt it matter.

EvilElitest

2008-02-16, 12:02 PM

1. mr scaly, how is bending not magic

2. The real question is who's fighting style is better
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Mr. Scaly

2008-02-16, 03:16 PM

1. mr scaly, how is bending not magic

2. The real question is who's fighting style is better
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EE

Because bending is a fighting style. The ability to shoot fire or waves of water comes from manipulating the energies around them by focusing energy. Compare it to monks...they focus their bodily energy to great effect.

It's sort of relevent, given Entreri's anti-magic gauntlet.

EvilElitest

2008-02-16, 04:28 PM

Because bending is a fighting style. The ability to shoot fire or waves of water comes from manipulating the energies around them by focusing energy. Compare it to monks...they focus their bodily energy to great effect.

It's sort of relevent, given Entreri's anti-magic gauntlet.

But monks can't shoot fire, they seem to me more like Shunjai (or whatever you call them) who also use magic
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Mr. Scaly

2008-02-16, 07:50 PM

But monks can't shoot fire, they seem to me more like Shunjai (or whatever you call them) who also use magic
from
EE

What's a Shunjai?

Anyway, monks don't shoot fire but their unarmed strikes become supernaturally powerful. Instead of empowering their strikes (which firebenders often do anyway), benders attack with their power itself.

EvilElitest

2008-02-16, 11:47 PM

What's a Shunjai?

Anyway, monks don't shoot fire but their unarmed strikes become supernaturally powerful. Instead of empowering their strikes (which firebenders often do anyway), benders attack with their power itself.

Shunja are casters from Oriental Adventures, they are like Benders in a sense, but they use tradical divine magic
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Anteros

2008-02-17, 03:14 AM

Well, the gauntlet has been shown to absorb psionics along with other non magical but super-natural things, so it probably would work on firebending. Again though, he can only absorb what is aimed directly at him. so if Zuko does any type of large area blasting, Entreri will not be able to absorb it.

EvilElitest

2008-02-17, 11:33 AM

Basically Enterai needs to literally catch the flames
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Mr. Scaly

2008-02-17, 03:27 PM

Which isn't the easiest thing in the world, I imagine. Training and reflexes aside, if he's using one hand to constantly catch flames that's one hand he can't attack or defend with.

I'm not really convinced that it's magic though...they would have said somewhere, in the series or on the main site if it was.

EvilElitest

2008-02-17, 03:56 PM

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-17, 06:27 PM

1. True
2. Even if no body calls it magic, that doesn't change the fact taht fire is coming out of his body
from
EE

Nobody would call a Kamehameha wave magic either.

EvilElitest

2008-02-17, 08:07 PM

Nobody would call a Kamehameha wave magic either.

who what now?
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nothingclever

2008-02-17, 11:13 PM

He's saying you wouldn't call dragon ball z moves magic. You also probably wouldn't call moves in Naruto magic because they never really say anything about magic and instead call what they use spiritual energy.

So would you consider spirtual energy/chi/chakra/whatever magic is the question.

EvilElitest

2008-02-17, 11:38 PM

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-17, 11:46 PM

Yes, i'd call all of that magic. Would salvator? I can't say

from
EE

Ah, the inevitable moment where lack of evidence locks things down. :smallsmile: Setting aside that topic for now...

Is Entreri particularly good at sneaking and being stealthy? I'd imagine so, since he's an assassin. Zuko is pretty good at it too, so it may very well turn into a 'seek and destroy' kind of thing.

EvilElitest

2008-02-18, 12:13 AM

Ah, the inevitable moment where lack of evidence locks things down. :smallsmile: Setting aside that topic for now...

Is Entreri particularly good at sneaking and being stealthy? I'd imagine so, since he's an assassin. Zuko is pretty good at it too, so it may very well turn into a 'seek and destroy' kind of thing.

Yeah he seems pretty good, though he doesn't seem to sneak much, but he did trick an expert thief by sneaking around her back and shanking her so...
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dwaro

2008-02-18, 03:50 AM

Charon's Claw is a magical item created in Toril. Therefore, it is subject to the Weave and won't work outside it. This is evident in the fact that magic items don't work in dead magic areas. However, if the battleground is on Faerun, then the Claw will work.

However, bending is completely outside the influence of the Weave. Mystra has no influence on the spirit of the Sun that strengthens and empowers firebenders. I would say that Charon's Claw would not work against firebending. I would even say that firebending works in dead magic areas.

Anyway, Charon's Claw is a crutch, one that Entreri doesn't need. He's got decades of fighting experience on Zuko. Zuko has a very direct style that lacks subtlety. He might surprise the older fighter with his bending, but Entreri would crush Zuko in melee. Zuko's skill with his broad swords is nothing compared to Entreri's skill. Anyway, Entreri doesn't use two weapon fighting in the traditional sense. In the books, he mainly uses the dagger for defense, in the main-gauche style, perhaps making a few distracting scratches here and there to replenish his own health. Most of the major damage would come from his sword, however.

Notice in the series how very few people get burned. Granted, they could negate the fire with their own bending skills, which Entreri lacks, but the only people who were burned were Katara and Toph, both of whom were surprised by people who didn't even mean to burn them.

Anyway, a little potion of protection from energy (fire) will put set things even, and trust me, Entreri has plenty of those, especially after going against a red dragon in order to destroy the Crystal Shard.

Job

2008-02-18, 04:15 AM

is Bending Magic?

I’m inclined to say no. In the first episode Katara corrects her brother when he mentions “magic water”, and then suggests that bending is simply a martial art.

Converting that over to d20, if Enterai can’t absorb say, a monk’s quivering palm ability then nix on the firebending.

Overall?

Lets call it a draw.

Arang

2008-02-18, 04:45 AM

Entreri draws his sword but Zuko speeds off in Greased Lightning. I'd call it a draw.

EvilElitest

2008-02-18, 10:32 AM

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-18, 12:01 PM

1. The general assumption about magic (including Charon's Claw) is that it works as per normal in the demi plane that is vs. threads
2. Why isn't bending magic? Shivering Palm is a move that kills a dude, but i don't think that is magic, thats killing a dude with one hit pressure point style
3. Enterai has better fighting skills as already demonstrated
from
EE

It hasn't really been demonstrated that he has better fighting skills, just that he uses his dagger as a defensive/alternate attack method and that his sword does most of the main damage while Zuko attacks and blocks with both of his weapons. He's certainly got more experience than Zuko, but considering that Drizzt could only tie with the much younger Obould experience doesn't count for as much as it might otherwise.

Still not touching the bending vs magic issue.

Haruspex

2008-02-18, 11:04 PM

It hasn't really been demonstrated that he has better fighting skills, just that he uses his dagger as a defensive/alternate attack method and that his sword does most of the main damage while Zuko attacks and blocks with both of his weapons. He's certainly got more experience than Zuko, but considering that Drizzt could only tie with the much younger Obould experience doesn't count for as much as it might otherwise.

Still not touching the bending vs magic issue.

Well, Obould did have crazy magic items and was ritually empowered by his god. Or did you mean a later battle? I haven't read the most recent book.

The monk's quivering palm is supernatural (Su), as is the ki strike, poison immunity, and abundant step. The increased unarmed damage is not given a label, so we can assume it is (Ex), the same goes for disease immunity (WTF?) and increased speed.

So if bending is a martial art, and quivering palm is a martial art, martial arts can be supernatural.

On the other side, Ki Blast (PHB 2), which is exactly what the name suggests, is a DnD feat that can be taken by non-monks, not needing any supernatural power whatsoever. So it could go either way.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-19, 07:52 PM

Well, Obould did have crazy magic items and was ritually empowered by his god. Or did you mean a later battle? I haven't read the most recent book.

The monk's quivering palm is supernatural (Su), as is the ki strike, poison immunity, and abundant step. The increased unarmed damage is not given a label, so we can assume it is (Ex), the same goes for disease immunity (WTF?) and increased speed.

So if bending is a martial art, and quivering palm is a martial art, martial arts can be supernatural.

On the other side, Ki Blast (PHB 2), which is exactly what the name suggests, is a DnD feat that can be taken by non-monks, not needing any supernatural power whatsoever. So it could go either way.

No, that's the battle I meant. It's also worth noting that Drizzt had his own crazy magical items and that Obould took off his armour part way through the battle and still kept pace with him.

This Ki Blast feat...what are the requirements to take it?

Haruspex

2008-02-19, 08:15 PM

No, that's the battle I meant. It's also worth noting that Drizzt had his own crazy magical items and that Obould took off his armour part way through the battle and still kept pace with him.

This Ki Blast feat...what are the requirements to take it?

I'll confirm it when I get to my books later, but I'm fairly sure Stunning Strike (which is not supernatural in any way) and a Base Attack of +6 were included. Monks can ignore some of those requirements, though.

The thing to remember is that DnD is a fairly high magic universe. Even if you don't cast spells there literally is magic in the air. Your farm could have magic soil in it. That bird could be a druid in disguise. So I think that's why they classfied the more exotic aspects of fantasy martial arts as supernatural.

Whether Avatar would consider this magic/supernatural is another matter, and one best answered by a person more familiar in the series than I.

Rogue 7

2008-02-19, 08:33 PM

The thing with avatar is that bending is the avatar world's shtick. We've got nothing in the universe to compare it to, so we don't really know one way or another.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-19, 09:17 PM

This is why I'm trying to avoid the anti-magic gauntlet entirely. ^^

EvilElitest

2008-02-19, 11:48 PM

How about this, Enterai can deflect any fire that he can block with his gauntlet and nothing else?
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Haruspex

2008-02-20, 02:09 AM

How about this, Enterai can deflect any fire that he can block with his gauntlet and nothing else?
from
EE

Under that condition, and an open field, Zuko can attack with indirect blast fire if he detects that a direct attack (or lightning) doesn't work. Against the rock throwing man, Zuko was struggling until he used fire, so it's circumstantial evidence that his fire will be his primary mode of attack. Entreri will use his blades as he has nothing else.

From what I know of Entreri, he might have fared better against the rock throwing man, but that's just my guess based on what I read.

Area effect attacks, assuming that Entreri has evasion, which we can deduce from his lifestyle, are less effective. Is one of Zuko's eyes injured (by that burn mark, maybe)? If so, the assassin will probably attack from that side.

Close terrain favors Entreri unless it is significantly flammable. If it is, Zuko can burn down the house and Entreri in it.

What attack forms does Zuko know for certain? Fireballs, fire darts, fire whips, firebreathing, flame avatars, shooting lightning, shrouding himself in fire? If I knew I would be able to make a better judgment.

Not Serious:
For practice, Entreri can just look for Reshar, or his ghost, and learn Desert Wind from him. Then it would be a more even battle.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-20, 08:28 AM

How about this, Enterai can deflect any fire that he can block with his gauntlet and nothing else?
from
EE

That seems a reasonable compromise that doesn't completely nerf both contestants.

EvilElitest

2008-02-21, 08:32 PM

Under that condition, and an open field, Zuko can attack with indirect blast fire if he detects that a direct attack (or lightning) doesn't work. Against the rock throwing man, Zuko was struggling until he used fire, so it's circumstantial evidence that his fire will be his primary mode of attack. Entreri will use his blades as he has nothing else.

Ah but i think Entreri is a bettwer swordsmen than Zuko

From what I know of Entreri, he might have fared better against the rock throwing man, but that's just my guess based on what I read.

seconed

Area effect attacks, assuming that Entreri has evasion, which we can deduce from his lifestyle, are less effective. Is one of Zuko's eyes injured (by that burn mark, maybe)? If so, the assassin will probably attack from that side.

I don't think that Zuko's eye is useless however

Close terrain favors Entreri unless it is significantly flammable. If it is, Zuko can burn down the house and Entreri in it.
This takes place in helm's deep or Clock Town

What attack forms does Zuko know for certain? Fireballs, fire darts, fire whips, firebreathing, flame avatars, shooting lightning, shrouding himself in fire? If I knew I would be able to make a better judgment.

um, he can make fire burst out of his feet, um yeah

Not Serious:
For practice, Entreri can just look for Reshar, or his ghost, and learn Desert Wind from him. Then it would be a more even battle.
Sounds good

Can anyone figure out who is a better swordsmen/more intellegent?
from
EE

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-21, 10:47 PM

Under that condition, and an open field, Zuko can attack with indirect blast fire if he detects that a direct attack (or lightning) doesn't work. Against the rock throwing man, Zuko was struggling until he used fire, so it's circumstantial evidence that his fire will be his primary mode of attack. Entreri will use his blades as he has nothing else.

In defence of the rock throwing incident, given a constant hail of projectiles nobody is going to be able to block everything. Human reflexes are only so good.

Area effect attacks, assuming that Entreri has evasion, which we can deduce from his lifestyle, are less effective. Is one of Zuko's eyes injured (by that burn mark, maybe)? If so, the assassin will probably attack from that side.

I don't think specific DnD mechanics should be included since Avatar doesn't follow those rules...it's the old 'why do your rules work and mine don't' argument. In cases like this I think we should rely on common sense. Dodging fire is feasible. Being enveloped by a wall of fire and coming through unharmed is something else entirely.

And Zuko seems unable to cryout of that eye, but his vision doesn't seem impaired.

Close terrain favors Entreri unless it is significantly flammable. If it is, Zuko can burn down the house and Entreri in it.

Close terrain tends to fill quite easily with fire. Not everything in Helm's Deep is made of stone, I guess.

What attack forms does Zuko know for certain? Fireballs, fire darts, fire whips, firebreathing, flame avatars, shooting lightning, shrouding himself in fire? If I knew I would be able to make a better judgment.

All of those except for lightning (he knows how to redirect it, but hasn't actually thrown any yet). Also he can make put fire on his limbs

EvilElitest

2008-02-22, 10:32 PM

Oh i forgot, Enterai has that cape that lets him fly, should we allow that (more like gliding but still)
from
EE

Hallavast

2008-02-22, 10:42 PM

In defence of the rock throwing incident, given a constant hail of projectiles nobody is going to be able to block everything. Human reflexes are only so good.
The tactic of trying to block every rock thrown in that scene is flawed. Entreri wouldn't even try it. He'd dodge while closing distance or seek some kind of cover/portable hole.
This upstart, Zuko doesn't seem to have the head for battle.

I don't think specific DnD mechanics should be included since Avatar doesn't follow those rules...it's the old 'why do your rules work and mine don't' argument. In cases like this I think we should rely on common sense. Dodging fire is feasible. Being enveloped by a wall of fire and coming through unharmed is something else entirely.
Fine, but Entreri has shown that he can dodge fireballs and/or lure high-level casters into meleerific death without using his shiney gauntlet/sword combo.

Close terrain tends to fill quite easily with fire. Not everything in Helm's Deep is made of stone, I guess.
Close terrain tends to fill quite easily with a certain dagger/sword combo as well.

Entreri would break Zuko in a sword fight. Judging by youtube clips, I'd say Berg'inyon Baenre could beat Zuko. And Entreri beat Berg'inyon.

Does anyone know how old Zuko is? Entreri has 30+ human years of swordfighting/skirmish battle experience. He was born for this.

Edit:

Oh i forgot, Enterai has that cape that lets him fly, should we allow that (more like gliding but still)
The cape is a "cloak of the bat". It allows him to fly like a bat. I don't see it being very useful in such a fight though.

EvilElitest

2008-02-22, 11:00 PM

1. Zuko is 16 i think
2. Well flying can always help
from
EE

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-22, 11:27 PM

EE:

Didn't Regis destroy that cape after the second battle with Drizzt or did he get another one?

Halavast:

It's easy to say that he can dodge every rock thrown or seek cover. But human reflexes are only so good. Against a continuous stream of projectiles that can smash through cover and hit from under the ground as well, moving forward isn't a viable option.

I seem to recall that Entreri has also been lured into 'death magic' range by high level casters before too. Also Zuko isn't a caster that falls over at one good hit.

My point about the close terrain was that there's much less room to dodge.

If I'd read that book I could say something about Berg'inyon, but all I really know is that he was obsessed with fighting Entreri and was killed by him... But I said it before, experience doesn't prove anything. Zuko's father is probably the strongest most experienced firebender around and Zuko deflected his attacked with relative ease. Obould is probably a third of Drizzt's age and fought him to a standstill without his magic armour.

EvilElitest

2008-02-22, 11:48 PM

EE:

Didn't Regis destroy that cape after the second battle with Drizzt or did he get another one?

Technically enterai lost it when he fell, but both combatants would have all the equipment they have ever had

Halavast:

It's easy to say that he can dodge every rock thrown or seek cover. But human reflexes are only so good. Against a continuous stream of projectiles that can smash through cover and hit from under the ground as well, moving forward isn't a viable option.

From what we have seen of him however, he is very good at that

from
EE

Hallavast

2008-02-23, 12:06 AM

It's easy to say that he can dodge every rock thrown or seek cover. But human reflexes are only so good. Against a continuous stream of projectiles that can smash through cover and hit from under the ground as well, moving forward isn't a viable option.
And you can only knock big rocks at someone with a hammer as fast as human strength will allow... unless there is something... Magical? about it.

Also Zuko isn't a caster that falls over at one good hit. Why not? A sword in the chest is a sword in the chest... unless you are referring to some kind of Hit Point mechanic?

My point about the close terrain was that there's much less room to dodge. And my point is that it works both ways.

If I'd read that book I could say something about Berg'inyon, but all I really know is that he was obsessed with fighting Entreri and was killed by him... He was the weaponmaster for the most powerful house of the most powerful drow city on the continent. He's a step or two under Entreri, though.

But I said it before, experience doesn't prove anything. Zuko's father is probably the strongest most experienced firebender around and Zuko deflected his attacked with relative ease. Obould is probably a third of Drizzt's age and fought him to a standstill without his magic armour.

This is foolish. Drizzt had several distinct disadvantages to offset his superior ability. Experience matters. Especially when it pertains directly to the type of battle at hand. Entreri is a battle-hardened veteren of countless skirmishes over the course of 30+ years. Zuko is a 16 year-old upstart fire spitter that tries to block boulders with a sword...

Hallavast

2008-02-23, 12:20 AM

Technically enterai lost it when he fell, but both combatants would have all the equipment they have ever had

So does that mean Entreri has Crenshinnibon?

Querzis

2008-02-23, 12:25 AM

Scaly you can argue all you want but if Entreri get in close range, Zuko is dead in a matter of seconds. Even if Zuko would actually manage to roast when Entreri get really close of him, hes still going to get killed one second after that. Pain from being burned doesnt stop a man like Entreri. If you want Zuko to win then try to find a way for him to stay away from Entreri. I read the book, I saw the video and a guy like Zuko is a really good warrior. He got great reflexe, speed and strength...but hes just about as good as a normal drow warrior (which is incredible from real world standard) but Entreri can kill 2of those in 10 seconds quite easely.

Try to find a strategy or a power Zuko could use to stay away from Entreri because hes not gonna win against the mean killing machine with swords, he can only win with fire and he must strike him from very far away.

EvilElitest

2008-02-23, 12:31 AM

So does that mean Entreri has Crenshinnibon?

no because never uses it in the book. Also he doesn't get anything after the book Servents of the shard, other than shade powers
from
EE

Hallavast

2008-02-23, 12:49 AM

no because never uses it in the book. Also he doesn't get anything after the book Servents of the shard, other than shade powers
from
EE

:smallcool: I see you're trying to keep a modicum of fairness...

But he DOES use the crenshinibon once... he uses it to send a message to teh orcs.

EvilElitest

2008-02-23, 12:59 AM

:smallcool: I see you're trying to keep a modicum of fairness...

But he DOES use the crenshinibon once... he uses it to send a message to teh orcs.

1. If Enerai gets the crystal, Zuko is dead
2. Yeah but it is a separate being, so no.
from
EE

Anteros

2008-02-23, 03:40 PM

no because never uses it in the book. Also he doesn't get anything after the book Servents of the shard, other than shade powers
from
EE

So Entreri doesn't get his dragon breath trap, or his hellfire steed? He seems to like using that trap on enemies ,so I can totally see it being a factor.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 03:42 PM

And you can only knock big rocks at someone with a hammer as fast as human strength will allow... unless there is something... Magical? about it.

Ha ha ha. I've already covered the magic issue and I'm not touching it again since people seem to ignore what I say...and besides, I've already openly agreed to EE's compromise. But to an experienced earthbender like that guy and others in the show, pitching boulders that size and speed is easy. Their training makes it so, not any magic.

Why not? A sword in the chest is a sword in the chest... unless you are referring to some kind of Hit Point mechanic?

Are you deliberately misunderstanding me? Look at it this way...who is more liable to survive a close encounter with an experienced assassin? Aun unprepared wizard who's spent his whole life studying books, leaving him relatively weak and unagile, or a skilled swordsman who, though surprised, has at least a decent chance of fighting him off himself?

And my point is that it works both ways.

Yes. I never denied that.

He was the weaponmaster for the most powerful house of the most powerful drow city on the continent. He's a step or two under Entreri, though.

Okay, cool. What makes you think he was better than Zuko though? I'd really like to know.

This is foolish. Drizzt had several distinct disadvantages to offset his superior ability.

Such as?

Experience matters. Especially when it pertains directly to the type of battle at hand. Entreri is a battle-hardened veteren of countless skirmishes over the course of 30+ years. Zuko is a 16 year-old upstart fire spitter that tries to block boulders with a sword...

A 16 year old firebender who beat three armed men without even drawing his weapon, but you were almost right there. I'm speaking of a fact in fantasy settings...the one with the most experience doesn't always win because of that. How much older than Entreri was Berg'inyon, and look what happened to him?

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 03:44 PM

Querzis

2008-02-23, 04:07 PM

But why??? I'm trying to understand this...everyone is saying how much better he is but isn't offering anything to back it up! A little proof that I can work with...that's all I'm asking for.

What do you want us to offer to back it up except what we already said? We read the books, we saw the videos and Entreri could kill a warrior like Zuko in 10 seconds maximum...Do you want us to post the entire books?

Look, can Zuko do lightning fast attack? Does he have a quasi-perfect combat technique? Does he have superhuman agility? Can he fight something else then dumb peasants with spears who charge aimlessly without using his fire? Is he a one-man army, a mean killing machine that everybody fears? Does he have 30 years of experience? Did he killed hundred if not thousands of warriors and mages? Does he have two of the most powerfull magic weapons in the world? No, no, no, no, no, no, no and no.

Our proof is that we read the books and saw the videos...nothing else. Zuko hasnt done anything especially impressive with his swords, especially since most of the people he fight are really weak. Its up to you to post a video were he actually does something impressive without using his fire. I havent watched the entire Avatar series after all so maybe he become some kind of ultimate warrior later. Until then, try to find a way he could manage to stay really far away from Entreri.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 04:13 PM

What do you want us to offer to back it up except what we already said? We read the books, we saw the videos and Entreri could kill a warrior like Zuko in 10 seconds maximum...Do you want us to post the entire books?

Look, can Zuko do lightning fast attack? Does he have a quasi-perfect combat technique? Does he have superhuman agility? Can he fight something else then dumb peasants with spears who charge aimlessly without using his fire? Is he a one-man army, a mean killing machine that everybody fears? Does he have 30 years of experience? Did he killed hundred if not thousands of warriors and mages? Does he have two of the most powerfull magic weapons in the world? No, no, no, no, no, no, no and no.

Our proof is that we read the books and saw the videos...nothing else. Zuko hasnt done anything especially impressive with his swords, especially since most of the people he fight are really weak. Its up to you to post a video were he actually does something impressive without using his fire. I havent watched the entire Avatar series after all so maybe he become some kind of ultimate warrior later. Until then, try to find a way he could manage to stay really far away from Entreri.

You're really taking this personally, aren't you?

And by 'proof' I meant 'specific incidents.'

Anteros

2008-02-23, 04:16 PM

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-23, 04:24 PM

What do you want us to offer to back it up except what we already said? We read the books, we saw the videos and Entreri could kill a warrior like Zuko in 10 seconds maximum...Do you want us to post the entire books?

Look, can Zuko do lightning fast attack? Does he have a quasi-perfect combat technique? Does he have superhuman agility? Can he fight something else then dumb peasants with spears who charge aimlessly without using his fire? Is he a one-man army, a mean killing machine that everybody fears? Does he have 30 years of experience? Did he killed hundred if not thousands of warriors and mages? Does he have two of the most powerfull magic weapons in the world? No, no, no, no, no, no, no and no.

Our proof is that we read the books and saw the videos...nothing else. Zuko hasnt done anything especially impressive with his swords, especially since most of the people he fight are really weak. Its up to you to post a video were he actually does something impressive without using his fire. I havent watched the entire Avatar series after all so maybe he become some kind of ultimate warrior later. Until then, try to find a way he could manage to stay really far away from Entreri.

Minor nit-pick, see the bolded part, but neither does Artemis.

Anteros

2008-02-23, 04:57 PM

The dagger is able to kill a commoner and completely heal a L20ish fighter rogue, how is that not powerful? And Charon's claw has to be at least +5 or so in addition to its other abilities.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 05:14 PM

Mr. Scaly, as it's a book character, we can't really offer a video or anything to back it up. However, when you read the books, you often see words that are used to describe Entreri's fighting that you could not use to describe Zuko's unless you were greatly exaggerating. Would you describe his attacks as "blindingly" or "lightning" quick? Most wouldn't. Would you describe him as being able to vanish and reappear instantly behind his target? Of course not.

If you really want to get technical, he matches Drizzt for speed, and Salvatore specifically states in one of his early books that Drizzt slashes an opponent twelve times before he can complete a swing.
Also, when Salvatore writes about them fighting one another, he describes the blades as moving so fast that they create one constant clanging sound rather than seperate ones. He is fast.

Is it unbelievable? Yes. Mary-Sueish? Yes. But the character's still do it.

Well...it's not impossible to back up something a book character can do. We know that Sauron can change shape because he's done it before, for example. Your Drizzt example is like that, and something I can work with. That's all I was asking for.

And speaking of which, that's very fast. I'm guessing it was against someone who knew what they were doing with a sword? Zuko is a better than average warrior though. He's beaten dozens of Fire nation soldiers without using bending at all...tough guys in armour with weapons and firebending of their own. So yes, he's very fast too. Maybe not that fast, but enough to defend from it, I'm sure. The specific scene is from about 14:00 to 19:00.

http://www.avatarchapter.net/52/

By the way...since people seem to be taking this overly seriously...Entreri is good. I never denied that. And it may surprise a LOT of people in here to hear me say this...I think he would beat Zuko too. BUT, I definitely don't think it's a definitive thing. Zuko is good too. I think he can beat him...maybe 40-60 odds. I'm just trying to show that this isn't a shut out.

Querzis

2008-02-23, 05:14 PM

You're really taking this personally, aren't you?

Not really, I'm just rude, overbearing and I'm a bastard. Hell, if it wasnt for the fact that I'm french and I dont know how to translate most of my favorite insults in english, I would have been banned from the forums a year ago.

And by 'proof' I meant 'specific incidents.'

Lightning fast attack: Basically, normal people cant even see his sword or his dagger when he attack. my favorite exemple is the first time we see him (and remember, he got stronger since then.) «Cattie-brie didnt saw his sword but she saw the red line on Grollo neck. Without understanding why, Grollo suddenly wasnt able able to breath but he continued fighting for a moment. Then, surprised, he suffocated in his own blood». Its probably not the real translation, I got the french version.

Quasi-perfect combat tecnique: the simple fact that his combat tecnique is better then hundreds of years old drow who did nothing but fight and train all their life is proof enough on that I think.

Superhuman agility: Hes fast enough to catch lightning and agile enough to evade big fireballs. Lets just say those rocks would have never hit him.

Dumb peasants: Sorry but those spearman in your video cant even be called militia. No armor or tecnique whatsoever, they were just running toward him with their spears pointed toward him...and they werent even fast and coudnt hold their spear steady.

Killing machine: hes an assassin without feelings. Dont expect him to panic no matter what happen.

30 years of experience:...do I need a proof on that one or his age is enough? And you can say whatever you want but Zuko is still 16. And please dont talk about Obould again, Zuko is not a warrior greatly empowered by a god and magic.

Killed hundred if not thousands: There is no doubt he killed at least a hundred warriors, he killed more then that in the books until now. But when we see Entreri for the first time, hes already a feared assassin in his thirty. He obviously had to kill lots of people to get there, near a thousand isnt much of a stretch.

Two of the most powerfull weapons: Go read his wikipedia page if you want to hear more about it but basically, even if Entreri doesnt hit Zuko vital organs, hes still going to die. A minor wound from his dagger is more then enough.

But my favorites are still when he fight Drizzt. Those are combat so epic most of the time everyone pause to watch them.

Zuko is a good warrior for REAL world standard. Our standard. He never done anything impossible (if we dont count his fire). Entreri is not someone that could actually, you know, exist. His speeds and agility are superhuman. Even from D&D standard, which are a lot higher then real world standard, Entreri is epic. Once again, find a way for Zuko to stay far away from Entreri.

Go read my first post, I think Zuko can win...with his fire! Entreri is a superhuman in close combat, the only way you can beat him is with other superhuman power and thats definitly not his fighting ability. Find a way for him to stay away from Entreri and he'll be able to roast him before entreri even come close.

Edit: Callos...what the hell? I never saw any weapons in the books more powerfull then Entreri dagger, not even Aegis-fang. His dagger kill someone and eat his souls from any wound, completely heal the one holding the dagger and it even work on creatures like shades. It cant be more powerfull then that.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 05:43 PM

Not really, I'm just rude, overbearing and I'm a bastard. Hell, if it wasnt for the fact that I'm french and I dont know how to translate most of my favorite insults in english, I would have been banned from the forums a year ago.

That explains a few things... And I suppose it wouldn't help to point out that people listen better if you don't go out of your way to be rude?

Lightning fast attack: Basically, normal people cant even see his sword or his dagger when he attack. my favorite exemple is the first time we see him (and remember, he got stronger since then.) «Cattie-brie didnt saw his sword but she saw the red line on Grollo neck. Without understanding why, Grollo suddenly wasnt able able to breath but he continued fighting for a moment. Then, surprised, he suffocated in his own blood». Its probably not the real translation, I got the french version.

Cool. I also liked Anteros' comment about Drizzt hitting someone twelve times before they hit the ground. And Zuko easily smacked around a bunch of people (Earth Kingdom soldiers, Fire Nation soldiers) who weren't on his skill level either. That does sound a lot faster than Zuko though, but he's fought with those much faster than him too (Azula for one) and done well.

Quasi-perfect combat tecnique: the simple fact that his combat tecnique is better then hundreds of years old drow who did nothing but fight and train all their life is proof enough on that I think.

That assumes that drow really do spend centuries doing nothing but fighting and training. Even they have lives outside killing.

Superhuman agility: Hes fast enough to catch lightning and agile enough to evade big fireballs. Lets just say those rocks would have never hit him.

Hmm? When did he do that? As I remember it, Merle Pariso had him on the ropes with a pair of flaming swords.

Dumb peasants: Sorry but those spearman in your video cant even be called militia. No armor or tecnique whatsoever, they were just running toward him with their spears pointed toward him...and they werent even fast and coudnt hold their spear steady.

The episode summary describes them as soldiers. http://www.tv.com/avatar-the-last-airbender/zuko-alone/episode/589943/recap.html

But no, they weren't as fast, strong, or skilled as Zuko. That's the point. Entreri also killed some other assassin called Dog Perry (or something) who was far below his level. Both were a display of skill, not a massive test of ability.

Killing machine: hes an assassin without feelings. Dont expect him to panic no matter what happen.

No argument there.

30 years of experience:...do I need a proof on that one or his age is enough? And you can say whatever you want but Zuko is still 16. And please dont talk about Obould again, Zuko is not a warrior greatly empowered by a god and magic.

Yes, he does have more experience than Zuko. That's just common sense, since he's that much older. And for Pete's sake, what's wrong with using him as an example?

Killed hundred if not thousands: There is no doubt he killed at least a hundred warriors, he killed more then that in the books until now. But when we see Entreri for the first time, hes already a feared assassin in his thirty. He obviously had to kill lots of people to get there, near a thousand isnt much of a stretch.

Again, no argument. He's had more experience. It's worth pointing out that Zuko has very rarely deliberately killed anyone...just beaten them up.

Two of the most powerfull weapons: Go read his wikipedia page if you want to hear more about it but basically, even if Entreri doesnt hit Zuko vital organs, hes still going to die. A minor wound from his dagger is more then enough.[?QUOTE]

Charon's Claw and the Vampiric Dagger, yes those. Hitting him is the problem though, with Zuko using both sword work and fire bending to keep Entreri on his toes.

[QUOTE]But my favorites are still when he fight Drizzt. Those are combat so epic most of the time everyone pause to watch them.

Yep. I regret that I've only read two books with Entreri in them...both times he fought Drizzt right at the end, and both were insanely epic.

EDITS

Go read my first post, I think Zuko can win...with his fire! Entreri is a superhuman in close combat, the only way you can beat him is with other superhuman power and thats definitly not his fighting ability. Find a way for him to stay away from Entreri and he'll be able to roast him before entreri even come close.

The way that Zuko fights though, mizes fire bending and swordsmanship togetjer.

Hallavast

2008-02-23, 07:03 PM

That assumes that drow really do spend centuries doing nothing but fighting and training. Even they have lives outside killing.
It's a fair assumption. Drow really don't ahve lives outside of killing... And they aren't like surface elves. They train everyday from adolescence. There isn't a drow swordsman alive that can compare to Entreri's skill in swordsmanship (beside's Drizzt). This has been proven again and again when Entreri was living in Menzoberranzan and the fact that he's slain each drow that crossed him in a sword fight (save Drizzt).

Hmm? When did he do that? As I remember it, Merle Pariso had him on the ropes with a pair of flaming swords.
1. Parizo did not beat him with fireballs and lightning bolts (Entreri dodged both).
2. Entreri would have won if not for Parizo's stoneskin/fireshield combo (something that Zuko doesn't have).
3. The swords Parizo used were magical they are driven by magical force. Does Zuko have similar magical aid?

But no, they weren't as fast, strong, or skilled as Zuko. That's the point. Entreri also killed some other assassin called Dog Perry (or something) who was far below his level. Both were a display of skill, not a massive test of ability. I like the comparison. Entreri kills Dog Perry (a chief Lieutentant in a prominent thieve's guild who is no slouch with a dagger) with the same ease as Zuko defeats two idiot spearmooks.

Yes, he does have more experience than Zuko. That's just common sense, since he's that much older. And for Pete's sake, what's wrong with using him as an example? Good. So when Zuko grows up, he might be able to present Entreri with some sort of challenge.

Also, in Obould vs. Drizzt, I believe Drizzt was strapped for time (a huge disadvantage considering the favored form of attack would be to defend until you wear the bigman down). Other than that, there are a lot of factors that intermingle enough as to force inconclusion. There aren't enough constants to judge one variable alone.

EvilElitest

2008-02-23, 08:35 PM

People, i believe in Enterai's victory, but quote sections that show off his ability

My main point is that he was able to take down a trio of highly trained elite drow warriors all of whome were using duel weapons (sword and dirk) and still was able to fight Drizzt to a standstill

Also about the dagger, in order for him to draw health it needs to be in the target for a long period of time, he slashes Drizzt with it without healing, if he can get it in him for a few seconds yeah but it isn't instant

from
EE

Callos_DeTerran

2008-02-23, 08:58 PM

The dagger is able to kill a commoner and completely heal a L20ish fighter rogue, how is that not powerful? And Charon's claw has to be at least +5 or so in addition to its other abilities.

You have to remember that the books don't use D&D stats as stringently as the stats drawn up after the character has been recognized. If Enterai was shot in the head with an arrow, he'd die. No if's ands or buts about it. No hit points or anything.

The dagger killing a commoner and healing Artemis is not as impressive when you remember that. Aside from that even in D&D stats the dagger comes out to about a +3 (life-stealing enhancement here cause I forget the name) dagger. Thats it. There are quite literally oodles of weapons more powerful then that.

Charon's Claw is a minor artifact. Powerful but still minor. If I remember the actual stats right, it might not even be +5 but has lots of little abilities some of which Artemis hasn't even seen yet.

Edit: Callos...what the hell? I never saw any weapons in the books more powerfull then Entreri dagger, not even Aegis-fang. His dagger kill someone and eat his souls from any wound, completely heal the one holding the dagger and it even work on creatures like shades. It cant be more powerfull then that.

Did you just read the Salvatore books or other FR books as well? Off the top of my head...Panodyrm, the Ring of Winter, the Crystal Shard, a rod that can spawn armies (forget the name, Elminster uses it), and moonblades all strike me as being more powerful then the vampiric dagger. A lot more powerful.

See the above though about the dagger and actual D&D effects being interchangable. Also has been noted using it on the shade tainted Artemis. And as EE pointed out it's not instantenous, the dagger has to be held in them, he has to be holding unto it, and he needs to concentrate to do it. Not useful mid-battle unless he pins Zuko down and starts doing it, which requires him standing still which means no more dodging the fire-bending.

I'd give Zuko 30-70 odds the first time they fought. Not very good but there IS a chance since Zuko is a capable warrior. The second time (if there was a second) I'd give it more of a 40-60.

EvilElitest

2008-02-23, 10:53 PM

Just as a reminder, Carron's claw is plus 5 just to let you know, and is nasty when it by it because of the soul thing
from
EE

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-23, 11:40 PM

It's a fair assumption. Drow really don't ahve lives outside of killing... And they aren't like surface elves. They train everyday from adolescence. There isn't a drow swordsman alive that can compare to Entreri's skill in swordsmanship (beside's Drizzt). This has been proven again and again when Entreri was living in Menzoberranzan and the fact that he's slain each drow that crossed him in a sword fight (save Drizzt).

Not that I'm convinced that drow do nothing but train to fight (I can think of a few other activities, like politics, religious stuff, serving their matron in non-killing matters) I think the drow's inability to beat Entreri says more about their own deficiency. I mean, they're ethnocentrists at best. They're going to assume that their skill is better than anyone else's and thatthey have no reason to study other fighting styles. This puts them at a big disadvantage.

1. Parizo did not beat him with fireballs and lightning bolts (Entreri dodged both).
2. Entreri would have won if not for Parizo's stoneskin/fireshield combo (something that Zuko doesn't have).
3. The swords Parizo used were magical they are driven by magical force. Does Zuko have similar magical aid?

1) The point was that Entreri has killed high level wizards by drawing them out unprepared. Pariso did the same to Entreri and handed his rear to him.
2) Would have, could have, should have, didn't. And If you'll watch the Zuko vs Earth kingdom guys again, he does have a fireshield effect around him, and wikipedia states that firebenders use it as a physical shield too.
3) They were magical FIRE. Zuko wields FIRE. If Entreri could not avoid damage from Pariso's FIRE what makes you think he could protect himself from Zuko's FIRE?

I like the comparison. Entreri kills Dog Perry (a chief Lieutentant in a prominent thieve's guild who is no slouch with a dagger) with the same ease as Zuko defeats two idiot spearmooks.

I hate to break this to you but...Dog Perry was as much of a mook as those Earth Kingdom guys. If he was so great how come nobody knew who he was unless they were exceptionally well informed?

Good. So when Zuko grows up, he might be able to present Entreri with some sort of challenge.

This comment is officially ignored since it doesn't actually add anything.

Also, in Obould vs. Drizzt, I believe Drizzt was strapped for time (a huge disadvantage considering the favored form of attack would be to defend until you wear the bigman down). Other than that, there are a lot of factors that intermingle enough as to force inconclusion. There aren't enough constants to judge one variable alone.

Why was he strapped for time? I admit, I only skimmed through the end. And there were other factors...Obould was being magically assaulted by his priestess for one.

Anteros

2008-02-24, 05:43 PM

Not that I'm convinced that drow do nothing but train to fight (I can think of a few other activities, like politics, religious stuff, serving their matron in non-killing matters) I think the drow's inability to beat Entreri says more about their own deficiency. I mean, they're ethnocentrists at best. They're going to assume that their skill is better than anyone else's and thatthey have no reason to study other fighting styles. This puts them at a big disadvantage.

Except the books specifically say that they do hardly anything but train...and whenever one of them fights an average (skilled) human warrior in the books he is cut apart.

1) The point was that Entreri has killed high level wizards by drawing them out unprepared. Pariso did the same to Entreri and handed his rear to him.
2) Would have, could have, should have, didn't. And If you'll watch the Zuko vs Earth kingdom guys again, he does have a fireshield effect around him, and wikipedia states that firebenders use it as a physical shield too.
3) They were magical FIRE. Zuko wields FIRE. If Entreri could not avoid damage from Pariso's FIRE what makes you think he could protect himself from Zuko's FIRE?

1. I'm not sure who this Pariso is...but if you're referring to that battle mage who get the drop on Entreri in one of the books, we don't know how it would have ended because the fight ended pre-maturely.
2. Having a magical DnD barrier and an Avatar fireshield are totally not the same thing. I don't think that fireshield can stop a dagger to the throat, or an arrow to the face, while the DnD one certainly does.
3. Pariso (if I am thinking of the correct fight) got the drop on Entreri. I don't think any one has said that Zuko couldn't burn Entreri if he caught him by surprise in a highly flammable building like Pariso did. But since Pariso can't just scry Entreri's location and teleport in, I don't see it happening.

I hate to break this to you but...Dog Perry was as much of a mook as those Earth Kingdom guys. If he was so great how come nobody knew who he was unless they were exceptionally well informed?

Are you being intentionally obtuse here?
I don't know....maybe because he is the leader of a crime syndicate? And it's his job to stay a secret?! If anything, that no one knows who he is, is more of a sign of his talent than anything. Entreri is the exception rather than the rule in these things...people know who he is because he lets them know...because they cannot possibly be a threat to him.

Why was he strapped for time? I admit, I only skimmed through the end. And there were other factors...Obould was being magically assaulted by his priestess for one.

You're comparing someone who is literally a god powered avatar of his people to Zuko. It's a ridiculous comparison. I'll freely admit that if a god decides to back Zuko in this fight that his chances improve dramatically. Until then, find a better example.

EvilElitest

2008-02-24, 10:09 PM

Except the books specifically say that they do hardly anything but train...and whenever one of them fights an average (skilled) human warrior in the books he is cut apart.

That is an explanation for their plus 2 LA more than anything else

Are you being intentionally obtuse here?
I don't know....maybe because he is the leader of a crime syndicate? And it's his job to stay a secret?! If anything, that no one knows who he is, is more of a sign of his talent than anything. Entreri is the exception rather than the rule in these things...people know who he is because he lets them know...because they cannot possibly be a threat to him.

In terms of fighting he is a mooky however

You're comparing someone who is literally a god powered avatar of his people to Zuko. It's a ridiculous comparison. I'll freely admit that if a god decides to back Zuko in this fight that his chances improve dramatically. Until then, find a better example.
Um, Drizzt isn't god powered, some priest think so, however there is no evidence that is circumstantial
from
EE

Anteros

2008-02-24, 10:16 PM

That is an explanation for their plus 2 LA more than anything else

In terms of fighting he is a mooky however

Um, Drizzt isn't god powered, some priest think so, however there is no evidence that is circumstantial
from
EE

How can you say he is or is not a mooky? We never see him fight. All we do know is that he rose to the top of a very successful crime syndicate, so it can be assumed he is a better fighter than your average spearman.

Also I was not referring to Drizzt, I was referring to Obould.

EvilElitest

2008-02-24, 10:51 PM

How can you say he is or is not a mooky? We never see him fight. All we do know is that he rose to the top of a very successful crime syndicate, so it can be assumed he is a better fighter than your average spearman.

Also I was not referring to Drizzt, I was referring to Obould.

1. um, didn't we see him fight Enterai
2. Oh, ok then
from
EE

Hallavast

2008-02-25, 02:50 AM

1. um, didn't we see him fight Enterai
from
EE

Not really... we just read about him jumping off a roof and Entreri stabbing him a couple times...

One could infer that he has some skill though. Way more than those idiot spearmen for sure...

EvilElitest

2008-02-25, 12:28 PM

Fair enough, shaking style

from
EE

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-25, 02:59 PM

Except the books specifically say that they do hardly anything but train...and whenever one of them fights an average (skilled) human warrior in the books he is cut apart.

Hmm...well wikipedia says that "most Drow plot endlessly to murder or otherwise incapacitate their rivals and enemy Drow using deceit and betrayal" as opposed to fighting and training. I can see warrior drow as being very skilled, but not every drow you happen to see on the streets.

1. I'm not sure who this Pariso is...but if you're referring to that battle mage who get the drop on Entreri in one of the books, we don't know how it would have ended because the fight ended pre-maturely.
2. Having a magical DnD barrier and an Avatar fireshield are totally not the same thing. I don't think that fireshield can stop a dagger to the throat, or an arrow to the face, while the DnD one certainly does.
3. Pariso (if I am thinking of the correct fight) got the drop on Entreri. I don't think any one has said that Zuko couldn't burn Entreri if he caught him by surprise in a highly flammable building like Pariso did. But since Pariso can't just scry Entreri's location and teleport in, I don't see it happening.

1) Yeah, that's him. He did have Entreri on the run before Jarlaxle intervened, though.
2) "master Firebenders are shown to be able to create walls of fire to absorb incoming attacks" (wikipedia), and Zuko is constantly referred to as a master firebender.
3) True, but the two of them are in a confined location...one would find the other quickly enough. That's when things get interesting.

Are you being intentionally obtuse here?
I don't know....maybe because he is the leader of a crime syndicate? And it's his job to stay a secret?! If anything, that no one knows who he is, is more of a sign of his talent than anything. Entreri is the exception rather than the rule in these things...people know who he is because he lets them know...because they cannot possibly be a threat to him.

He wasn't a leader...he was an assassin for a crime syndicate. And a skilled diviner (I think he was Giunta?) described him as brash, headstrong and out to make a name for himself. He was certainly better than three anonymous henchmen though, but all four were beaten easily.

You're comparing someone who is literally a god powered avatar of his people to Zuko. It's a ridiculous comparison. I'll freely admit that if a god decides to back Zuko in this fight that his chances improve dramatically. Until then, find a better example.

I'm not comparing him to Zuko...I'm comparing his fight with Drizzt to Zuko's with Entreri. He and Obould have much less experience. Obould drew with Drizzt, God powered or not, so it's at least possible that Zuko can draw with Entreri.

Anteros

2008-02-25, 04:44 PM

You really don't see where the part about "powered by a god" makes a difference there?

Also, in reference to my point about the Drow, I was speaking about the weapon masters and their elite warriors who literally spend all day, every day training. Obviously the vast majority of Drow society does not. Zuko could probably even beat the average Drow. The difference is that Entreri can beat about 4 of the average drow at the same time.

Entreri's combat ability is no more within the realms of normal human ability than Zuko's fire bending is.

I'll admit that if Zuko manages to somehow corner Entreri, or catch him off guard then he will probably win (through fire bending) But if it's the other way around (more likely since Entreri is a trained assassin, who is much better at stealth.) Or in an open field match, Entreri wins as well.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-26, 01:47 PM

You really don't see where the part about "powered by a god" makes a difference there?

Yes, I do. But since Drizzt was also ridiculously strong, that sortof evens it out.

Also, in reference to my point about the Drow, I was speaking about the weapon masters and their elite warriors who literally spend all day, every day training. Obviously the vast majority of Drow society does not. Zuko could probably even beat the average Drow. The difference is that Entreri can beat about 4 of the average drow at the same time.

Okay. I thought you were a bit unclear on that...it sounded to me like you meant the entire drow race. To be honest, I never quite trusted Salvatore's description about drow warriors being superior to all, particularly since they're somewhat fragile, but I have read parts where Entreri pastes quite a few of them. Too bad there's no Zuko vs Drow threads to compare the two. :smallwink:

Entreri's combat ability is no more within the realms of normal human ability than Zuko's fire bending is.

But he is human after all...how about this? We agree that he's not superhuman, but at the very uper limits of what humans are capable of?

I'll admit that if Zuko manages to somehow corner Entreri, or catch him off guard then he will probably win (through fire bending) But if it's the other way around (more likely since Entreri is a trained assassin, who is much better at stealth.) Or in an open field match, Entreri wins as well.

Not sure about the open field, but the rest acceptable to me. I said earlier that I gave Entreri 60-40 odds over Zuko.

Hallavast

2008-02-26, 11:09 PM

Yes, I do. But since Drizzt was also ridiculously strong, that sortof evens it out. Ok. So we can all agree that experience alone is not the end all be all of combat, but it's my assertion that it plays a big role in nonetheless. And, in Entreri's case, his experience is extremely relavent to the situation. He's been trained to fight agile swordsmen and mages in skirmish/stealth type fights for 30+ years. Nothing to scoff at.

Okay. I thought you were a bit unclear on that...it sounded to me like you meant the entire drow race. To be honest, I never quite trusted Salvatore's description about drow warriors being superior to all, particularly since they're somewhat fragile, but I have read parts where Entreri pastes quite a few of them. Too bad there's no Zuko vs Drow threads to compare the two. :smallwink: Yes, you have a point. There is a bit of fuzzy conjecture about exactly how powerful an average drow warrior is... Depends on who you ask. A good topic for another thread.

But he is human after all...how about this? We agree that he's not superhuman, but at the very uper limits of what humans are capable of? This is another point of contention. We're not sure about what exactly changed within entreri when he absorbed the shade's essence... He may indeed have heightened abilities due to his infusion of shadowstuff... But again, this is speculation. We can't know for certain, because Bob hasn't told us yet...
Also, there's the question of whether a 18th+ level character is still subject to human limitations or not...

Not sure about the open field, but the rest acceptable to me. I said earlier that I gave Entreri 60-40 odds over Zuko.

I'd push it to 80:20 odds, but you obviously know more about Zuko, and I've a feeling I know more about Entreri than you do... so alas... we need someone with a broader knowledge base to settle it.

If Zuko did manage to get the jump on Entreri in an abandoned warehouse that he could somehow magically seal (doesn't seem likely to me), things would get very interesting. Entreri would have to get very lucky to win that fight if Zuko can indeed completely stop a blow from Artemis Entreri's artifact-level sword.

Mr. Scaly

2008-02-27, 09:18 AM

Ok. So we can all agree that experience alone is not the end all be all of combat, but it's my assertion that it plays a big role in nonetheless. And, in Entreri's case, his experience is extremely relavent to the situation. He's been trained to fight agile swordsmen and mages in skirmish/stealth type fights for 30+ years. Nothing to scoff at.

Yes, you have a point. There is a bit of fuzzy conjecture about exactly how powerful an average drow warrior is... Depends on who you ask. A good topic for another thread.

This is another point of contention. We're not sure about what exactly changed within entreri when he absorbed the shade's essence... He may indeed have heightened abilities due to his infusion of shadowstuff... But again, this is speculation. We can't know for certain, because Bob hasn't told us yet...
Also, there's the question of whether a 18th+ level character is still subject to human limitations or not...

I'd push it to 80:20 odds, but you obviously know more about Zuko, and I've a feeling I know more about Entreri than you do... so alas... we need someone with a broader knowledge base to settle it.

If Zuko did manage to get the jump on Entreri in an abandoned warehouse that he could somehow magically seal (doesn't seem likely to me), things would get very interesting. Entreri would have to get very lucky to win that fight if Zuko can indeed completely stop a blow from Artemis Entreri's artifact-level sword.

Yeah...I actually want to read more books about Entreri. Drizzt always sort of annoyed me, but he was so much more interesting.

I'm thinking...in a seek and destroy stealth mission Entreri has it. Like you say, he's got more experience in that regard and Zuko's only had to try it a couple of times, albeit with pretty good success. In close sword on sword combat, Entreri also probably has it but it's closer since Zuko regularly mixes firebending in with swordplay, like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Zuko_On_Fire2.png

...and though Entreri is ridiculously fast he'll be in constant danger of getting burned. From a distance, or in a smaller, confined space, Zuko has the advantage. But again...Entreri's reflexes and skills. So yeah, I think it would be a pretty good match either way.