Nale's multiple classes

[Ash Williams]

Okay, we all know he's a fighter/rogue/sorcerer. But any idea as to which class has the higher rank?

[Wolfie_1066]

probly fighter since he seems to start out with it followed my sorcerer and then rogue

because simply i have'nt seen him use rogue much and he seems to do front line combat more

[Querzis]

because simply i have'nt seen him use rogue much and he seems to do front line combat more

Actually I think he got more level in rogue because his sneak attack seems nasty:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0360.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0056.html

I dont remember what level was the police chief but he almost one-hit Elan.

[Dire Cohort]

I'd guess he has more levels in Rogue than Fighter or Sorceror. His spells are pretty low level (Exp. Retreat, Charm Person), so he hasn't displayed high Sorceror levels. He might be a good Fighter, but running away from Roy in the Pit of Outdated Monsters or whatever suggests he wasn't too confident in his fighting skills (though Roy probably did roll a high Intimidate check).

I think he's mostly Rogue because he's been most effective with his social skills. Successfully Bluffing and Disguising his way past the Order after the Cliffport incident must've been pretty tough (at least in Haley's case). Getting Sabine to not kill him when he was caught with Haley probably took a high Diplomacy check. Also (though not a social skill), killing the Chief with one blow suggests a half-decent Sneak Attack (assuming the Chief had multiple warrior or fighter levels).

[Shishnarfne]

Okay, we all know he's a fighter/rogue/sorcerer. But any idea as to which class has the higher rank?

Well, there's a thread already devoted to this and similar questions: Class and Level Geekery Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61354). For those of you who don't want to spend the time, note that Nale cast a level 3 spell (Suggestion) on Elan, and Sorcerors don't get those until level 6. So, assuming Nale is not much higher than level 12 (the order is level 13), he has nearly half of his levels (or more!) in Sorceror.

[Chronos]

I think he's mostly Rogue because he's been most effective with his social skills. Successfully Bluffing and Disguising his way past the Order after the Cliffport incident must've been pretty tough (at least in Haley's case). Getting Sabine to not kill him when he was caught with Haley probably took a high Diplomacy check. Also (though not a social skill), killing the Chief with one blow suggests a half-decent Sneak Attack (assuming the Chief had multiple warrior or fighter levels).Actually, getting Sabine to not kill him was also Bluff. But if he was clever about which levels he took when, he could keep his important skills maxed, or close to it, despite the multiclassing.

We know he has at least 6 levels of sorcerer, due to the Suggestion spell. And assuming Thog learned about multiclassing from Nale, he probably has exactly two fighter levels, since "fighter level 3 is stupid level". So we're probably looking at four rogue levels. If his first level was in rogue, that means 63 skill points from rogue levels (when he could buy Bluff and Disguise at cost). His strategy is probably something like taking one rogue level every three character levels, and topping off his rogue skills at every such level. Assuming no Int modifier, he could keep three rogue skills maxed that way, without having to deal with cross-class penalties.

[Faramir]

But given that Nale is built as an AD&D bard he probably started as fighter, then went to rogue, then went to sorcerer.

[Souju]

he's just needlessly complicated, which is cool but still LOL

[Animefunkmaster]

Optimal he is probably first level rogue (can't beat the skill points).

I am think Rogue 1 (maybe 2 if we ever see evasion), Fighter1 (maybe 2 at most), Sorcerer #, Eldritch Knight (or other full bab full spellcasting prc)#.

I think the Cop was a low level, and gutting elan in a single blow I feel is more dramatic than actual sneak attack damage.

[factotum]

But given that Nale is built as an AD&D bard he probably started as fighter, then went to rogue, then went to sorcerer.

Why do you think that? Nale thinks Bards are underpowered (see strip #50), he obviously doesn't want to actually be one. The fact he's picked a multiclass combination that happens to mirror exactly what a Bard can do anyway is just part of the "evil opposites" joke.

[Tempest Fennac]

We know the Ploice Chief had 6 Warrior levels, but we don't have any information on his Con or HPs to really comment about how much damage Nale was able to do.

[Morgan Wick]

And assuming Thog learned about multiclassing from Nale, he probably has exactly two fighter levels, since "fighter level 3 is stupid level".

That's a pretty big assumption, but even if true don't you think Nale would have learned from personal experience, which would mean he's at least Fighter 3?

[Souju]

That's a pretty big assumption, but even if true don't you think Nale would have learned from personal experience, which would mean he's at least Fighter 3?

or maybe thog taught nale about fighter level 3?

[Manga Shoggoth]

I'd guess he has more levels in Rogue than Fighter or Sorceror. His spells are pretty low level (Exp. Retreat, Charm Person), so he hasn't displayed high Sorceror levels. He might be a good Fighter, but running away from Roy in the Pit of Outdated Monsters or whatever suggests he wasn't too confident in his fighting skills (though Roy probably did roll a high Intimidate check).

Nope: check Transference (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) again. Nale is quite happy to swap opponents (and go up against a specialised fighter) until Roy points out "I've been suppressing the urge to beat the crap out of someone who looks EXACTLY like you for a long, long time."

Then Nale runs like hell.

Mind you, I agree about the indimidate roll - that was a really nasty smile...

[Morgan Wick]

or maybe thog taught nale about fighter level 3?

You do realize how ridiculous "thog taught nale" sounds, right? Besides:
:thog: (in #64): fighter level 3 is dumb level. thog not take.
So if that were the case, it wouldn't be from personal experience.

[Souju]

You do realize how ridiculous "thog taught nale" sounds, right? Besides:
:thog: (in #64): fighter level 3 is dumb level. thog not take.
So if that were the case, it wouldn't be from personal experience.

secondary experience from a wise elderly barbarian/warrior at the barrbaryunz guild?

[smart thog]

Hey, what if nale is perfectly balenced in all three classes, and took a variant class feature that gave him access to spells of higher levels like a wizard, put he had to give up some boomy spell schools. The question is, what prestige class will he take to remain evil opposites?

[Souju]

Hey, what if nale is perfectly balenced in all three classes, and took a variant class feature that gave him access to spells of higher levels like a wizard, put he had to give up some boomy spell schools. The question is, what prestige class will he take to remain evil opposites?

Evil Sheriff?

[The Extinguisher]

He seems like the Blackguard type.

[Fitzclowningham]

He seems like the Blackguard type.

It would fit in with the "Eeevil potential" line, but I still don't buy it.

I tend to go along with Nale being a higher-level rogue than fighter because of the sneak damage, but it's completely baffling how he thought he could take Roy.

[EricDerKonig]

It would fit in with the "Eeevil potential" line, but I still don't buy it.

I tend to go along with Nale being a higher-level rogue than fighter because of the sneak damage, but it's completely baffling how he thought he could take Roy.

I think his plan was to just hold off Roy until Thog killed Elan in a few rounds.

[Souju]

It would fit in with the "Eeevil potential" line, but I still don't buy it.

I tend to go along with Nale being a higher-level rogue than fighter because of the sneak damage, but it's completely baffling how he thought he could take Roy.

if you go back and read the comic, he doesn't think he can BEAT roy, his intention is to keep roy at bay (which he can do, under normal circumstances) until thog finishes off Elan

[factotum]

I tend to go along with Nale being a higher-level rogue than fighter because of the sneak damage, but it's completely baffling how he thought he could take Roy.

We don't know what their respective levels were at the time--Nale didn't use the Suggestion spell until later, so he might have had a different balance of class levels during that fight. He might even have changed how he laid out his levels purely BECAUSE of that defeat.

[Kish]

if you go back and read the comic, he doesn't think he can BEAT roy, his intention is to keep roy at bay (which he can do, under normal circumstances) until thog finishes off Elan
And he thought he could hold off Roy better than Elan could hold off Thog.

In other words, he was stupid, but this is not unusual.

[hajo]

we all know he's a fighter/rogue/sorcerer. But any idea as to which class has the higher rank?

In the Class and Level Geekery III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3420916&postcount=3) threat, Nale is listed as just "Fighter 1+ - Rogue 1+ - Sorcerer 6+"

I'm pretty sure the experts there would have spotted any further evidence by now, and would have used it for a more precise specification of him :smalltongue:

[mockingbyrd7]

What if maybe, just maybe, Nale is higher than level 12? What if he's, say, level 15? There's nothing that says he isn't something like Sorcerer 6/Rogue 5/Fighter 4, just because the OotS are supposedly level 13. It would explain one-hitting the police chief, almost one-hitting Elan, casting Suggestion, being confident in his ability to hold off Roy (although he's already extremely cocky anyways), etc.

[SoD]

What proof is there of Nale being a level 6+ sorcerer? I would've thought that'd be his lowest level class...

[MorkaisChosen]

As mentioned earlier in this topic, Suggestion, which he could only learn at level 6.

[SoD]

It was already mentioned on this topic? Oops, I guess I didn't read it as thouroghly as I thought...:smallredface:

[FujinAkari]

What if maybe, just maybe, Nale is higher than level 12? What if he's, say, level 15? There's nothing that says he isn't something like Sorcerer 6/Rogue 5/Fighter 4, just because the OotS are supposedly level 13. It would explain one-hitting the police chief, almost one-hitting Elan, casting Suggestion, being confident in his ability to hold off Roy (although he's already extremely cocky anyways), etc.

Thats where it was mentioned :P

[MorkaisChosen]

Before that, actually:


Well, there's a thread already devoted to this and similar questions: Class and Level Geekery Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61354). For those of you who don't want to spend the time, note that Nale cast a level 3 spell (Suggestion) on Elan, and Sorcerors don't get those until level 6. So, assuming Nale is not much higher than level 12 (the order is level 13), he has nearly half of his levels (or more!) in Sorceror.

Emphasis is mine.

[Bayar]

nale's classes are the Giant's way to show us how overly complicated Nale is, since all his choice classes emulate the Bard....in a unnecessary complicated way...

[Tempest Fennac]

Don't forget that Nale can't take Bard levels due to being Lawful. To be honest, I'd probably pick Hexblade/Beguiller if I wanted the skills which Nale wanted (admittedly, the joke is that his probably weaker then a Bard, so that combination wouldn't work for the comic).

[the_tick_rules]

well his levels can't be more than 2 apart or he'll start taking xp penalties. I'm thinking he emphasizes fighter the most.

[Raging_Pacifist]

well his levels can't be more than 2 apart or he'll start taking xp penalties.

So Sor6 Fgt3 Rog3

[Querzis]

well his levels can't be more than 2 apart or he'll start taking xp penalties.

Its not because it says that in the rules that its true in the OOTS world. Rich, as well as any DM, can and should ignore some rules and create new ones. We already got three others peoples who obviously had more then 2 levels apart in their multiclass (Thog, Miko and Belkar) and since it doesnt seems to bother any of them at all, we can assume Rich doesnt use that rule in his world.

[The Extinguisher]

Or maybe they just don't care about them?

[Quorothorn]

Its not because it says that in the rules that its true in the OOTS world. Rich, as well as any DM, can and should ignore some rules and create new ones. We already got three others peoples who obviously had more then 2 levels apart in their multiclass (Thog, Miko and Belkar) and since it doesnt seems to bother any of them at all, we can assume Rich doesnt use that rule in his world.

A Half-Orc's Favored Class is Barbarian, so Thog wouldn't take multi-class XP penalties from just one extra class (he's a Barbarian?-Fighter2, apparently). And since Miko's Human, her Favored Class is her highest-level one (geez, Humans rock in versatility). So unless they took levels in a third class we don't know about, they don't take XP penalties.

Belkar, on the other hand...well, his WIS is about 9, IIRC.

[Raging_Pacifist]

That is a good point Qourothon.

[Quorothorn]

Thanks, Raging_Pacifist.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Thanks, Raging_Pacifist.

No problem. If someone presents a decent theory against all others credit is due. But one stupid post and I will turn on you like THAT.

[Quorothorn]

No problem. If someone presents a decent theory against all others credit is due. But one stupid post and I will turn on you like THAT.

Good to know these things. :smallsmile:

[Raging_Pacifist]

Isn't it though, isn't it?

On topic: So can we come to a come to a consensus on his levels?

[Raging_Pacifist]

Isn't it though, isn't it?

On topic: So can we come to a come to a consensus on his levels?

[Souju]

I'd like to bring Nale's line in the last panel to everyone's attention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.htm)
it's probably just him being an ass but perhaps it DOES mean he's a tad higher level than everyone else.

[Kish]

Belkar, on the other hand...well, his WIS is about 9, IIRC.
Considering his behavior in the strip, it being anywhere near that high strikes me as really unlikely.

It's never stated, beyond that he has an ability score penalty.

[Irbis]

Don't forget that Nale can't take Bard levels due to being Lawful. To be honest, I'd probably pick Hexblade/Beguiller if I wanted the skills which Nale wanted (admittedly, the joke is that his probably weaker then a Bard, so that combination wouldn't work for the comic).

Um, weaker? Given how weak Bard is [since all Nale would be missing is the ability to sing and some knowledge] I'd expect that he is much stronger, since intelligent multiclassing will always beat single weak class. :smallsigh:

[Tempest Fennac]

Are Bards that weak in large parties, though? I would have thought that their skills would be useful in that situation (admittedly, I know Bards are weak on their own due to their "Jack of all trades, master of none" roll).

[Chronos]

Um, weaker? Given how weak Bard is [since all Nale would be missing is the ability to sing and some knowledge] I'd expect that he is much stronger, since intelligent multiclassing will always beat single weak class.What does intelligent multiclassing have to do with fighter/rogue/sorcerer? Yes, intelligent multiclassing makes a character significantly stronger, but by the same token, stupid multiclassing makes a character much weaker.

Not to mention that Bard is actually one of the stronger classes available. Oddly, they just seem to have bad PR.

[factotum]

Considering his behavior in the strip, it being anywhere near that high strikes me as really unlikely.

It's never stated, beyond that he has an ability score penalty.

However, we know that a single Owl's Wisdom (which only grants a +4 Wisdom bonus) made Belkar able to cast Cure Serious Wounds from scrolls, which I think would require him to have a Wisdom of 12 or 13 (not sure which). Therefore his base Wisdom can't be more than 4 less than that.

[ShellBullet]

However, we know that a single Owl's Wisdom (which only grants a +4 Wisdom bonus) made Belkar able to cast Cure Serious Wounds from scrolls, which I think would require him to have a Wisdom of 12 or 13 (not sure which). Therefore his base Wisdom can't be more than 4 less than that.

That might just mean that Owl's wisdom can be casted lower level than in your typical D&D setting...

[Kurald Galain]

Not to mention that Bard is actually one of the stronger classes available. Oddly, they just seem to have bad PR.

Well, you go into a dungeon and you sing at people. Who could take that seriously?

Btw, the bit about Belkar's wisdom has been exhaustively discussed in the Class and Level Geekery threads. Consensus is that 'funny trumps rules' but there are a few (somewhat unlikely) rules-based explanations available, such as that it was a 3.0-version Owl's Wisdom, which can do a +5 on a lucky roll rather than a +4.

[Lupy]

He tried to fight Roy up close, so I think fighter. He could've flanked with Thog.

[Sixscimitars]

I'll go with sorcerer. It's unlikely, being the munchkin that he is to take more than two levels in fighter-you think Thog of all people came up with that?-, and his sneak attack looks decent. He can cast Suggestion, and putting him at level 13-the average Order level- he's a Ftr2/Rog5/Sor6. With a build this bad I doubt he'd have cared about XP at this point.
Also, to those who are bringing up the "tried to melee Roy" example-all that implies is that Nale is an idiot. By your logic, Leeroy Jenkins (sorry) was some sort of superbeing.