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Thurbane
2008-02-15, 12:43 AM
Is there any simple way to add Mage Hand to a Beguiler's spell list? I'm looking to get a Beguiler to be able to qualify for the Arcane Trickster PrC (DMG p.177):

Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.

...I'm wondering if either of the follwing methods would allow him to qualify.

1. Wearing a Hand of the Mage. (DMG p.258)

Hand of the Mage: This mummified elf hand hangs by a golden chain around a character’s neck (taking up space as a magic necklace would). It allows the wearer to utilize the spell mage hand at will.

2. Taking the Spell Hand feat. (CArc p.83)

SPELL HAND
You possess a magical understanding of the manipulation of force.

Benefit: An innate talent for magic grants you the following spell-like abilities as a 1st-level caster: 1/day - mage hand, open/close, Tenser's floating disk. Save DC 10 + spell level + your Cha modifier.

...I'm looking for a RAW answer if possible, rather than houseruling that a Beguiler could use a feature similar to a Warmage's Electic Learning ability (PHBII p.67).

RTGoodman
2008-02-15, 12:51 AM
I'm not sure about the two methods you mentioned (I don't know if SLAs count as "cast" for the purpose of qualifying - I think CAr should have the answer somewhere), but there's one definite method: the Extra Spell feat, also from Complete Arcane.

Of course, it's probably a waste to spend a feat on 0-level spell.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-15, 01:07 AM
FRCS Magical Training (PGtF version better than FRCS version (Must be taken at first level)) feat at first level picks up Mage Hand for the PC plus the PC gets to lean one other bonus cantrips. There are a few other similar feats in game for cantrips.

DementedFellow
2008-02-15, 01:24 AM
Typically for a PrC, I wouldn't allow an item to substitute a prerequisite a PC should have. By that same token, I'm not totally unreasonable and I would consider a SLA as a "casting". You're either going to burn a feat or a level in wizard/sorc/bard.

Or if you have a lenient DM, you could swap out two or more 0-level Beguiler spells for access to the mage hand spell.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 02:05 AM
I don't know of any way to 'learn' mage hand as an actual 'known spell' as a beguiler.

You could always take a single level of sorcerer and pick up some other useful spells along with mage hand.

Fizban
2008-02-15, 02:11 AM
I'm not sure about the two methods you mentioned (I don't know if SLAs count as "cast" for the purpose of qualifying - I think CAr should have the answer somewhere), but there's one definite method: the Extra Spell feat, also from Complete Arcane.

Of course, it's probably a waste to spend a feat on 0-level spell.

Actually, Extra Spell has been clarified many times as to only provide a spell off your class list, meaning that for Beguilers and Warmages, it's completely useless. You could however use the Eclectic Learning variant to learn it as a level 1 spell if I've got it right (instead of getting an extra illusion spell or what have you from your class ability, you can get any spell at one level higher than normal).

Kizara
2008-02-15, 02:14 AM
The Spell Hand feat from Carc.

Nabs you mage hand, open/close and tenser's floating disk. Still bad, but it beats Extra Spell.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-15, 05:14 AM
1. Wearing a Hand of the Mage. (DMG p.258)
I believe RAW is unclear on the topic, but that most DMs would disallow this. However, it does appear to be legal to e.g. take Flyby Attack even if you cannot actually fly yourself, so that the feat only works while you're using a fly spell. But that's not quite the same thing.



2. Taking the Spell Hand feat. (CArc p.83)
That should work; Arcane Trickster doesn't say that Mage Hand has to be a known spell per se, so a SLA should qualify. Or, for instance, a warlock invocation that has the same effect (which doesn't actually exist to my knowledge, but in theory).


there's one definite method: the Extra Spell feat, also from Complete Arcane.
That actually does not work, since extra spell only gives you a spell from your class list (and hence, is pointless for beguilers).

raygungothic
2008-02-15, 07:01 AM
There's a PrC somewhere - I think in Complete Warrior - called Mindspy (?) which relies on Detect Thoughts. If I remember correctly, it specifically states that it's OK whether you cast it as a spell, have it as a spell-like ability, innate to your species, from a feat, or even from a magic item. Anyway, it raises an interesting question. Since that PrC permits the use of an item to fulfil the prerequisites, do others? Or, since only that one PrC specifically allows an item, does that imply all the others don't? (I don't think either reading is particularly justified in a D&D context)

My first thought, on reading it, was to think that spending levels on a class that depends on you keeping a certain item was a very problematic idea. Either the DM is kind and doesn't treat that magic item as something that can be stolen or lost or smashed or deactivated - thereby privileging it above other items - or he isn't, and entire levels become useless. This would be less of a problem for the Arcane Trickster, but if you lost nothing for losing the Mage Hand ability, it's a pretty feeble prerequisite!

Maybe a solution would be to allow it - but rule that that Ranged Legerdemain is powered by Mage Hand. If ever the item is lost or stolen or damaged, Ranged Legerdemain won't work until you get it back. This would make it *slightly* easier to be an Arcane Trickster, but not impossibly, and Arcane Trickster's requirements are relatively harsh for such a cool concept so it's probably fair.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-15, 07:14 AM
Is there any simple way to add Mage Hand to a Beguiler's spell list? I'm looking to get a Beguiler to be able to qualify for the Arcane Trickster PrC (DMG p.177):
1. Wearing a Hand of the Mage. (DMG p.258)

Drawback, if you lose it or if dispelled you lose class features till you can regain it.


2. Taking the Spell Hand feat. (CArc p.83)


...I'm looking for a RAW answer if possible, rather than houseruling that a Beguiler could use a feature similar to a Warmage's Electic Learning ability (PHBII p.67).
Warlock is example in CA that says it works. It was Darkness, that means spell or Darkness Invocation.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-15, 09:20 AM
The Magical Training feat page 41 Player's Guide to Faerun (Not the original feat in FRCS) unfortuneately the feat was not posted on realms help dandello. The PC gets a choice of picking up 3 cantrips cast as a wizard (Int 10+) with a 3 cantrip spellbook using the spellbook as a wizard with ASF or 2 extra cantrips known and cast as a sorcerer (Char 10+) with 3 castings a day as a 1st level caster with ASF.

The feat has a special that if you already have levels in sorcerer or wizard, increase the the number of 0-level spells you can cast by three. (The sorcerer class gets two bonus known spells)

Since the PGtF was published in March 2004 and the Beguiler class was published in May 2006 I would treat the Beguiler class as a "sorcerer" class for the spellcasting as a spontaneous caster. Just like a Battle Sorcerer variant taking the feat the PC would not receive ASF in armor due to the base class and gets two bonus known spells and three extra cantrip daily castings.

Chronicled
2008-02-15, 10:42 AM
There's also a Knowstone from Dragon Magazine, that works (and is priced) like a Pearl of Power, but for spells known instead of spells/day. Similarly cheesy to Hand of the Mage and similar, but whatever.

KoDT69
2008-02-15, 12:57 PM
Arcane Trickster is not all that powerful anyway. I have 1 player that took it up and I cut her a lot of breaks on stuff like that. We took up 3 Rogue levels for Evasion (she insisted it was TEH 1337PWNZ0rWTFBBQ ability she must have), then a couple Sorcerer Levels, a level of Unseen Seer, and AT for the rest. Nowhere near as strong as the Cleric with Time and Travel domains who incidentally has stuff like Fly and Dimension door to cover for her loss of arcane caster levels. So her power level is now pretty much on par with a good Rogue build with maxed UMD, except she didn't have to spend any gold to get the casting. Sneak attacks on 0 levels spells make her happy, so I'm good with that! :smallsmile: Yah yah yah, suboptimal, but fun!

Ascension
2008-02-15, 01:03 PM
Easiest way would be to have your Beguiler be a Whisper Gnome... or would it not count if Mage Hand is a spell-like ability? 'course, the fact that the Whisper Gnome has -2 CHA would pretty well screw you over anyway, but at least you could have your prestige class...

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-15, 01:19 PM
Actually, Extra Spell has been clarified many times as to only provide a spell off your class list, meaning that for Beguilers and Warmages, it's completely useless. You could however use the Eclectic Learning variant to learn it as a level 1 spell if I've got it right (instead of getting an extra illusion spell or what have you from your class ability, you can get any spell at one level higher than normal).

Is there an official ruling that says this?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-15, 01:37 PM
Is there an official ruling that says this?

Yes, in the FAQ.


Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the
Extra Spell feat?

No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells
known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list.
Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class
spell list, this feat has no effect.

Turbit
2008-02-15, 04:02 PM
Wasn't there a feat in either complete arcane or complete mage that gave mage hand and several other spells as SLA?