Barbarian weapon focus

[freetobeuandme]

I'm playing a half orc barbarian and I'm wondering if it's better to get a greataxe than a greatsword or another weapon. Could anyone give me their advise on a weapon for a starting out barbarian?

[Draz74]

I'm playing a half orc barbarian and I'm wondering if it's better to get a greataxe than a greatsword or another weapon. Could anyone give me their advise on a weapon for a starting out barbarian?

As long as you pick a two-handed martial weapon, the differences are pretty small and you can pretty much choose based on your character's style. Greatsword is best, but not by much. Personally I think the heavy flail needs more use. :smallsmile:

If you're talking about the Weapon Focus feat, though, it's pretty weak. Look for something else for your starting feat. (Something more fun, that lets you do more.)

[Irreverent Fool]

Mechanically, I find the greatsword to be superior. I'm sure someone can stat it out mathematically for you, but a d12 isn't all that much better than a d10 and I'd rather crit more often than have bigger crits since they tend to be overkill regardless.

Plus, most DMs have an easier time putting magic swords all over the place than axes.

[Roderick_BR]

Weapon Focus looks nice at first, but in the long run it's weak. Good ony for fighters to qualify for others feats, and even then it's not all that good. You are better off picking something that gives you bonus in battle. Power Attack is good not only for the extra damage and Shock Trooper cheese, but it's a prereq for several feats like Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun, Improved Bullrush, and Cleave.

For weapon choice, go for the greatsword for extra criticals, or greataxe if you prefer to overkill with less frequency.
Or my favorite exotic weapons: Either a goliath greathammer (damage 2d6, critical x4!) or a dwarven warpike (reach, trip, AND can be used against charges, with the only flaw of being unable to attack adjacent enemies).
Spiked chain is good if you want to bother your DM.
I second the heavy flail if you want variety.

[Tortoise262]

One time, I worked out the math on this: IIRC, as long as you're adding 10 to your damage rolls, on average, scythe wins over greataxe. 10 is not hard to pull off. With an 18 STR, that's +6 already. The other 4 are easy to cover with Power Attack, enhancement, and Weapon Specialiation (if you have 4 available to put into fighter)

[Da King]

I did a brief experiment with some of my dice. I rolled a d12 and 2d6 both a equal amount of times. The average roll for the d12 was about 5.8, while the average roll for the 2d6 was about 7.4. So, obviously a greatsword does more damage on a normal hit.

[Kekken]

I did a brief experiment with some of my dice. I rolled a d12 and 2d6 both a equal amount of times. The average roll for the d12 was about 5.8, while the average roll for the 2d6 was about 7.4. So, obviously a greatsword does more damage on a normal hit.

Funny, I did a brief experiment with some of my dice. I rolled a d12 and 2d6 an equal amount of times (10). The average for the d12 was 7.2. The average for the 2d6 was 6.7. So, obviously a greataxe does more damage on a normal hit.



Okay, sorry if that sounded sarcastic. I just wanted to show that just because one lot of random results says one thing, doesn't mean that's the rule. Randomness is... well... random.

[Muyten]

A d12 rolls 6.5 on average and 2d6 is 7 on average however you get high(and low numbers) a lot more often on a d12.

On average a greatsword is always better than a greataxe.
A scythe is indeed better if your damage-bonus is high enough (higher than 10).

[playswithfire]

Over the long run, 2d6 averages out to 7 and d12 averages out to 6.5. Not a huge difference; 2d6 should tend towards the average value more while d12 will vary more wildly

[The_Snark]

At 1st level, I've generally found that the greatsword is a bit better. You're far less likely to do maximum damage, but maximum damage is generally overkill at 1st level anyway, and the greatsword is much less likely to do minimum damage and leave the enemy alive. The same goes for critical hits at that level; a critical is almost certainly going to kill the target, whether it's x2 or x3. Of course, the designers seem to have factored this in: the greatsword costs 50 gp, while the greataxe is only 20—not insignificant at that level.

Once you get a couple levels under your belt and your enemies have enough health that they aren't supposed to be one-hit kills, it stops mattering as much.

[Chronos]

In general, consistency favors the PCs, and variance hurts them. The key is that, as a PC, most of the fights you get into are fights that you should probably win. If you do exactly as well as you expect to, you will win, but if you have a fluke result, it might mean that you lose. Where variance benefits you, is when you're in a fight which you don't expect to win: If the only way you can win is via a lucky fluke, then you want to make flukes as likely as possible. But then, you (and your DM) should probably be trying to avoid getting into those situations in the first place.

A greatsword is more consistent than a greataxe, in two regards. First, rolling two dice gives you a distribution that's peaked in the middle, while rolling one die gives you a distribution that's spread out evenly. Second, a greatsword gives you more reliable criticals, compared to a greataxe's more powerful criticals. And a greatsword also does slightly more damage, on average. So mechanically, the sword is superior to the axe.

However, it's not superior by very much. A greataxe is very close to being as good as a greatsword, and any other two-handed weapon is very close to being as good as a greataxe. So if there's some other weapon which you feel would be a better fit for your character, it doesn't cost you much to use it instead.

[Uthug]

Why not use a falchion instead? 2d4 damage isn't that far off, and the increased chance of critting (18-20) should be quite worth it. Critting can get really scary if you get imp. crit later on.

[Cuddly]

Make sure you pick up a truedeath crystal if you're going the critical route.

[Fax Celestis]

Probabilities:

Greataxe:
{table=head]Damage | Chance of Rolling
1 | 8.3%
2 | 8.3%
3 | 8.3%
4 | 8.3%
5 | 8.3%
6 | 8.3%
7 | 8.3%
8 | 8.3%
9 | 8.3%
10 | 8.3%
11 | 8.3%
12 | 8.3%
[/table]

Greatsword:
{table=head]Damage | Ways to Roll | Chance of Rolling
2 | 1 | 2.7%
3 | 2 | 5.5%
4 | 3 | 8.3%
5 | 4 | 11.1%
6 | 5 | 13.8%
7 | 6 | 16.6%
8 | 5 | 13.8%
9 | 4 | 11.1%
10 | 3 | 8.3%
11 | 2 | 5.5%
12 | 1 | 2.7%
[/table]

This means you have a better chance of dealing average damage with a greatsword, and a very low chance to deal very little or a lot of damage with one. On the other hand, a greataxe has a flat chance of any amount of damage.

[Bayar]

Orc barbarian with greatsword...it has +4 STR, but -2CHA/WIS/INT.

Still, with 18 STR+4 racial+4 rage+4 Bull's strenght=30 STR

Attack: +10 attack, +BAB + weapon focus. If the weapon is masterwork...then add +1 MW...and you can thus hit a theoretical AC of 32 at level 1.

Damage: +10 damage for a one handed weapon, and a +15 on 2 H weapon...

Combine that with power attack + weapon focus, and you will get some sick scores for level 1.

Now, about greatswords and greataxes...do the maths... you have 1/12 chance to roll good/bad at damage with greataxe. Min damage 1, max damage 12.

Greatswords: 2 damage minimum, 12 maximum, but higher chances to roll 3-11, depending on the dice combination.

Dont bother with criticals...you wont get them everytime, and with a big threat range...that will be useful at low levels when you encounter things with low AC...try to use imp critical on a dragon...

Partial ninja'd...

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Make sure you pick up a truedeath crystal if you're going the critical route.

That and a Demolition crystal; same thing only Vs Constructs :smallsmile:

[Crow]

Play what you think would be cool and would go with the character!

Most fights are over in 2-3 rounds anyways, so the .5 extra damage on average you get from the greatsword isn't all that much. Most of your consistent or average damage is going to come from your strength bonus anways.

I would rather have the potential explosiveness of the Greataxe (slightly better chance of high damage roll, and greater crit modifier). Of course you won't crit so often (5% as opposed to 10% before the confirmation roll), and you have a greater chance of rolling low on your damage. But like I said before, most of your damage is going to come from strength bonus anyways, and x3 crit hurts like hell when it hits. There's nothing I hate more than hitting on a crit and the enemy keeps fighting like nothing happened.

Weapon Focus is not a great feat, but just pick one that sounds good to you. The problem with taking Power attack at level 1 is that you can only power attack up to your Base Attack bonus. I usually wait until level 3 to pick it up.

[Fiery Diamond]

Weapon Focus is very good for a fighter, not so much for a barbarian. Greatsword is statistically "better" for the player than greataxe. But personally, I think flavor and attitude matters more than statistical things. Greataxes are just that awesome. Especially for orcs.

-Fiery Diamond

[sickler]

Pick what you think your character would use. Personally, I always imagine my barbarians with huge greatswords (think Conan). However, when I was in an all dwarf campaign, I couldn't resist but take a greataxe instead, which turned out kind of funny because my very first attack in the game was against a monster would was supposed to beat us senseless three times at once, but I rolled higher initiative, power attacked away my BAB and rolled a nat 20, then rolled max damage.

Still, I just pick flavour each time I choose weapons. Once and a while, when the mood strikes me, I'll spend a long afternoon trying to min/max a build but you always have to remember, there's more variety of monsters out there than there are of PCs. Any good DM will learn your weakness and can patiently let you swath through hordes of monsters with ease until he finally pulls out the trump card on you.

[Tortoise262]

Pick what you think your character would use. Personally, I always imagine my barbarians with huge greatswords (think Conan). However, when I was in an all dwarf campaign, I couldn't resist but take a greataxe instead, which turned out kind of funny because my very first attack in the game was against a monster would was supposed to beat us senseless three times at once, but I rolled higher initiative, power attacked away my BAB and rolled a nat 20, then rolled max damage.

Still, I just pick flavour each time I choose weapons. Once and a while, when the mood strikes me, I'll spend a long afternoon trying to min/max a build but you always have to remember, there's more variety of monsters out there than there are of PCs. Any good DM will learn your weakness and can patiently let you swath through hordes of monsters with ease until he finally pulls out the trump card on you.

You rolled 36 on 3d12?? That's fantastic!

[bugsysservant]

You rolled 36 on 3d12?? That's fantastic!

Maybe he just uses the multiplier and rolls once. I don't know what you are supposed to do by RAW, but that's what I do. Still lucky, but not so much so.

[sickler]

Maybe he just uses the multiplier and rolls once. I don't know what you are supposed to do by RAW, but that's what I do. Still lucky, but not so much so.

Normally, to save time (and since you usually have only 1d12 given its minimal use) we just roll one and multiply. However, when the DM saw the 12, he told me to roll the others, so I borrowed my friend's d12 and tossed both over the table, then my DM's jaw dropped.

[Tortoise262]

Average Damage on a Normal Hit
{TABLE=head]Dmg Mod|Greataxe(1d12)|Scythe(2d4)|%
+0|6.5|5|76.9%
+1|7.5|6|80.0%
+2|8.5|7|82.4%
+3|9.5|8|84.2%
+4|10.5|9|85.7%
+5|11.5|10|87.0%
+6|12.5|11|88.0%
+7|13.5|12|88.9%
+8|14.5|13|89.7%
+9|15.5|14|90.3%
+10|16.5|15|90.9%
+15|21.5|20|93.0%
+20|26.5|25|94.3%
+100|106.5|105|98.6%[/TABLE]

Average Damage on a Critical Hit
{TABLE=head]Dmg Mod|Greataxe(1d12x3)|Scythe(2d4x4)|%
+0|19.5|20|97.5%
+1|22.5|24|93.8%
+2|25.5|28|91.1%
+3|28.5|32|89.1%
+4|31.5|36|87.5%
+5|34.5|40|86.3%
+6|37.5|44|85.2%
+7|40.5|48|84.4%
+8|43.5|52|83.7%
+9|46.5|56|83.0%
+10|49.5|60|82.5%
+15|64.5|80|80.1%
+20|79.5|100|79.5%
+100|319.5|420|76.1%
+1,000,000|3,000,019.5|4,000,020|75.0%
+infinity|3*x|4*x|75%[/TABLE]

Just throwing in some numbers for fun. The "%" in the first table represents what % of the axe's damage the scythe does, and in the second chart it represents how much % of the scythe's damage the axe does.

I did this to show: The higher the damage bonus, the closer the scythe is to the greataxe on a normal hit, and the farther the axe is from the scythe on a critical hit. So, the better the damage bonus, and the higher the AC of your enemy, the better the scythe is. If you're fighting something that requires a 20 to hit, then the scythe is even better than the greatsword!

On average, though, it seems like the Scythe and Greataxe are pretty close. Now, someone should draw up a chart showing the average damage of any hit based on the likelihood that the hit is a critical!

EDIT: According to RAW, if you score a crit, you roll the damage multiple times. ie, (1d12+6)x3 = 3d12+18

DOUBLE-EDIT: Of course! I'm so dumb... I should've realized that the second chart would approach 75%... Doi... And, obviously, the first chart approaches 100%

[shadow_archmagi]

I used the SRD's dicebag to simulate rolling 20000 d6s vs 10000 d12s.

d6s never rolled below 69882, and the d12's never managed to come within 2000 of it.

[bugsysservant]

Alright, this is what I calculate: assuming that you hit on a ten or greater, the scythe is better than the ax if you can add 28 bonus damage, and better than the sword if you can add 39. I'm not quite sure how you came up with the greater than ten rule stated above unless my math is wrong (very possible).

[Kizara]

Probabilities:

Greataxe:
{table=head]Damage | Chance of Rolling
1 | 8.3%
2 | 8.3%
3 | 8.3%
4 | 8.3%
5 | 8.3%
6 | 8.3%
7 | 8.3%
8 | 8.3%
9 | 8.3%
10 | 8.3%
11 | 8.3%
12 | 8.3%
[/table]

Greatsword:
{table=head]Damage | Ways to Roll | Chance of Rolling
2 | 1 | 2.7%
3 | 2 | 5.5%
4 | 3 | 8.3%
5 | 4 | 11.1%
6 | 5 | 13.8%
7 | 6 | 16.6%
8 | 5 | 13.8%
9 | 4 | 11.1%
10 | 3 | 8.3%
11 | 2 | 5.5%
12 | 1 | 2.7%
[/table]

This means you have a better chance of dealing average damage with a greatsword, and a very low chance to deal very little or a lot of damage with one. On the other hand, a greataxe has a flat chance of any amount of damage.

On a somewhat unrelated note, would you mind doing this same progression on 1d20 vs 2d10? Or link me to one online, it would be of great use to me.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Probabilities:

1D20:
{table=head]Number | Chance of Rolling
1 | 5%
2 | 5%
3 | 5%
4 | 5%
5 | 5%
6 | 5%
7 | 5%
8 | 5%
9 | 5%
10 | 5%
11 | 5%
12 | 5%
13 | 5%
14 | 5%
15 | 5%
16 | 5%
17 | 5%
18 | 5%
19 | 5%
20 | 5%[/table]

2D10:
{table=head]Number | Ways to Roll | Chance of Rolling
2 | 1 | 1%
3 | 2 | 2%
4 | 3 | 3%
5 | 4 | 4%
6 | 5 | 5%
7 | 6 | 6%
8 | 7 | 7%
9 | 8 | 8%
10 | 9 | 9%
11 | 10 | 10%
12 | 9 | 9%
13 | 8 | 8%
14 | 7 | 7%
15 | 6 | 6%
16 | 5 | 5%
17 | 4 | 4%
18 | 3 | 3%
19 | 2 | 2%
20 | 1 | 1%
[/table]

[Tortoise262]

Alright, this is what I calculate: assuming that you hit on a ten or greater, the scythe is better than the ax if you can add 28 bonus damage, and better than the sword if you can add 39. I'm not quite sure how you came up with the greater than ten rule stated above unless my math is wrong (very possible).

That "greater than ten" thing I said initially was just me trying to remember how I crunched the numbers before.

[Chronos]

Assuming that the threat range of a weapon is never higher than the hit range, and denoting the probability of hitting as P and the extra damage (strength, enhancement, Power Attack, etc.) as X:

A greataxe has an average damage per swing of P*1.1*(6.5 + X)
A greatsword has an average damage per swing of P*1.1*(7 + X)
A scythe or falchion has an average damage per swing of P*1.15*(5 + X)

A keen greataxe has an average damage per swing of P*1.2*(6.5 + X)
A keen greatsword has an average damage per swing of P*1.2*(7 + X)
A keen scythe or falchion has an average damage per swing of P*1.3*(5 + X)

P is a common factor in all of these (since it's also the probability of confirming the critical), so we can factor it out to compare them. So a scythe or falchion is, on average, as good as a greatsword when 1.1*(7 + X) = 1.15*(5 + X). Solving for X, we have 1.95 = 0.05*X, or X = 39 points of bonus damage (as bugsysservant found). This is difficult to attain under most circumstances, but possible for a high-level character using Power Attack.

If the weapon is keen, however (or equivalently, the character has Improved Critical), the equivalence comes when 1.2*(7 + x) = 1.3*(5 + X). Solving, 1.9 = 0.1*X, or X= 19 points of bonus damage. This is quite achievable by mid-levels, using strength-boosting items, magical weapons, and Power Attack.

Of course, the situation can change, depending on other factors. If you have some situation where a critical is guaranteed (such as a Coup de Grace), the scythe is almost always the best choice, due to its high multiplier. And if you have some situation where a critical hit triggers some bonus effect (such as the Telling Blow feat), the falchion is almost always the best choice (due to its high chance of critting).