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freetobeuandme
2008-02-15, 10:05 AM
I'm playing a half orc barbarian and I'm wondering if it's better to get a greataxe than a greatsword or another weapon. Could anyone give me their advise on a weapon for a starting out barbarian?

leperkhaun
2008-02-15, 10:11 AM
I think that a greatsword ends up slightly ahead...however to be honest, there really isnt that much of a difference. Go with whatever you feel is best (i would recomend against taking the weapon focus feat though).

Fronko
2008-02-15, 10:17 AM
IŽd take the great-axe, if only for fluff reasons.

Barbarians feels more like axe, rather than sword.

AslanCross
2008-02-15, 10:26 AM
They're practically the same. In terms of critical hits, the amount of damage the greataxe dishes out on its rarer crits puts it on the same ground as the greatsword's more often-but-weaker crits. I don't know the math, but it's mathematically proven. Greatswords deal slightly more damage on average, though. As in a negligible amount.

Just go with whatever you think would fit your character more. Both weapons are very similar in terms of damage output.

Adumbration
2008-02-15, 10:29 AM
Or if you like, you could get a War mace. 1d12 damage, x2 crit, one-handed weapon.

SoD
2008-02-15, 10:31 AM
It does, however, lower your AC by 1 point, and requires a feat (exotic weapon proficiency) to be used one handed.

Chronicled
2008-02-15, 10:34 AM
The greatsword does .5 more damage on average. I also find its 19-20/x2 to be better than a 20/x3 crit: a more active proc means that damage will be more spread out, and not dump an obscenely big crit on an already nearly defeated enemy.

That said, any barbarian I run will have a greataxe or bludgeoning weapon for fluff reasons.

Also, Weapon Focus is horrible after the early levels.

Tengu
2008-02-15, 10:35 AM
They're practically the same. In terms of critical hits, the amount of damage the greataxe dishes out on its rarer crits puts it on the same ground as the greatsword's more often-but-weaker crits. I don't know the math, but it's mathematically proven. Greatswords deal slightly more damage on average, though. As in a negligible amount.


That is true.

Assuming that all crits are automatically confirmed (whether a crit confirms or not does not affect the proportions of these numbers):

Greatsword has a 10% chance of dealing a critical hit that deals +100% damage. On average that's +10% damage with each blow.

Greataxe has a 5% chance of dealing a critical hit that deals +200% damage. On average that's +10% damage with each blow.

These numbers shift towards greataxe's favour against enemies with AC so high that the lowest number on the D20 needed to hit is higher than greatsword's minimal number needed to confirm a crit. However, greatsword deals 7 damage on average while greataxe deals 6.5 - the difference of half a point. Overall, these weapons are comparable, and the biggest difference between them is do you prefer to have more often crits, or bigger crits.

AslanCross
2008-02-15, 10:42 AM
It does, however, lower your AC by 1 point, and requires a feat (exotic weapon proficiency) to be used one handed.

I never understood why the Warmace did that. The weapon's description says its unwieldiness and weight make it difficult for the wielder to recover, hence the AC penalty. However, the Maul weighs twice as much, deals less damage, and yet can be wielded in pretty much the same way (two-handed as martial, one-handed as exotic.)

Weeeeird.

Flawless
2008-02-15, 10:48 AM
As a Barbarian you don't get too many feats, so you should avoid weapon focus since it doesn't give you much and there are so many other more interesting and useful feats out there. Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Karmic Strike, etc.
If you're planning to add a few levels of Fighter, it can be okay, because then you can get weapon spec. and martial weapon mastery, which is not really powerful, but gives you a nice bonus nonetheless.

SoD
2008-02-15, 10:52 AM
Yeah, I think they thought 'oh no! A one handed exotic weapon that deals 1d12 damage! That's too powerful! What can we do? I know! -1 to AC! Yeah! That'll fix it!' without thinking of a nice easy reason.

Jerthanis
2008-02-15, 11:55 AM
The more frequent crits might serve you better in the long run, if you Power Attack with a high enough Strength your 2x crits might still be fight-ending on their own. Gaining the Keen ability on your weapon benefits a Greatsword to a larger extent than the Greataxe, since it's a +10% chance to crit versus a +5% chance to crit. The Falchion is actually fairly popular thanks to being two handed and 18-20 crit. When most of your damage is coming from Power Attack and Strength anyway, the hit to average damage is sometimes worth the extra crit rate.

Still, Weapon Focus is more the type of feat you get when you've got one to spare. There are better options out there in the Completes and PHB2.

Person_Man
2008-02-15, 12:44 PM
I suggest a guisarme and a lance with armor spikes, a greatsword, heavy flail, and repeating heavy crossbow strapped to your back, and several nets on your belt.

Your guisarme is your primary weapon. As you gain levels, you'll invest in more powerful magic versions. Since its a reach weapon, you'll end up getting a few extra attacks of opportunity every combat by using it. This is far more valuable then a few extra points of average damage that you might get from a greataxe, greatsword, or similar weapon. If people close within 5 feet of you, take a 5 foot step back. Make sure that its made of adamantine, since you don't want your primary weapon to break, and you might come across enemies with adamantine damage reduction.

When outdoors, ride a warhorse and carry a lance. This will give you double damage on a charge for free. You can continue to fight with it and take 5 foot steps as needed, or you can drop it and draw your guisarme. When you're not outdoors, just leave it on your horse and tie it to a post.

The greatsword is for when you are corned in a dungeon and can't take 5 ft steps. You should also make it out of cold iron, in case you come across demons or fey.

The heavy flail is for when you come across enemies that have damage reduction that's defeated by bludgeoning. This is common among some undead. You should also make it out of silver, in case you come across lycanthropes or similar enemies.

The heavy repeating crossbow should be filled with bolts tipped with poison (FYI, there's "good" poisons that only work against Evil enemies in the BoED). You will only use this in the rare occasion that you're fighting an enemy that you can't reach (usually because it can fly). I usually don't waste money on this, I just wait until we fight Drow or a giant spider or whatnot, and then use their poison to coat my bolts and put them away for a special occasion.

The nets are for BBEG. The nifty thing about nets are that they're touch attacks, and once ensnared, an enemy takes a bunch of penalties until it spends a full round action to get out of it.

Also, you might want to take Quickdraw.

freetobeuandme
2008-02-17, 04:39 PM
don;t i get 1.5 times my str on the guisame because its a heavy weapon?

AslanCross
2008-02-17, 04:53 PM
don;t i get 1.5 times my str on the guisame because its a heavy weapon?

Two-handed melee weapons get Str Bonus x1.5 to their damage bonus.

Person Man brings up a good point: Players typically stick to one weapon, which often leads players to get stuck in a position where their weapons are ineffective.

freetobeuandme
2008-02-17, 05:09 PM
the max gold for a lvl 1 character is 240, a repeating crossbow is 250.
a greatsword is 50.
a guisame is like 25.
nets are pretty cheep and so is a lance

Kol Korran
2008-02-17, 05:27 PM
Personally, i tend to fit my character's main weapon/s to her style, and the way i imagine it. (Especially with the barbarian- the raging attack is such a distinctive roleplay feature in itself!)

However, if you look for the mechanically better weapon. why not check the following ideas:
- from Eberron: Talenta Tangat (sort of a realy big sharp scimitar, 1d10, 18-20/x2. It always reminds me the Bugs bunny & Duffy duck cartoon where they find a treasure cave, with an arabian guard with a huge sword who gos "HASAN CHOPS!") it lets you deal decent damage, but many critical hits. Or you can check out the Talenta Sarsash (1d10, 19-20/ x4!). it's a long scythe which has a devestative critcal damage, with resonable range. plus- it's a reach weapon (i know many don't like them when the enemy gets adjacent to you, but the 5 ft step usually solved the problem). both these weapons demand exotic weapon feat (unless you're a talenta halfling), but they can be quite nice, and effective.

- One of my players played a barbarian/fighter orc on one of my campaigns. he took the double orc axe as his weapon. he soon got the new nickname "Meat Blender". sure- he had to take the two weapon fighting feat, and some other as well, but he enjoyed it as hell! (especially when once, incredibly, he rolled two criticals against an advanced worg). the point is again- take what feels fun!

- as to feats. try looking for feats that improve your rage, grant you combat abilities based on strngth and such (power attackand cleave, or improved bull rush and such). also, for some races, there are feats that lend them weapon focus or such stuff with several "racial traditional" weapons. and later on any weapon feat you add (improved critical and such), immediatly applies to them all. i personally don't like these feats, but still, they are better than weapon focus.

Good luck breaking stuff, people, rules, enemy's teeth, your teeth, and so on.
damn! i just remembered- you can't even read this post, can you?

freetobeuandme
2008-02-17, 08:35 PM
why not? it seems like good advice.

Chronos
2008-02-17, 09:00 PM
Because barbarians are illiterate, of course.

shadow_archmagi
2008-02-17, 09:12 PM
In the interest of getting a somewhat accurate average, I compared 90000 d6s vs 45000 d12s via the d20 dicebag.

The results were:

45000d12= 291215

90000d6= 314830

Kompera
2008-02-18, 12:07 AM
I'm playing a half orc barbarian and I'm wondering if it's better to get a greataxe than a greatsword or another weapon. Could anyone give me their advise on a weapon for a starting out barbarian?

You do want a 2-H weapon for use with Power Attack, and both of those are great options. If it's really down to those two, I'd suggest the Greatsword. The 2d6 gives a bit of a bell to the curve, rather than the flat distribution of a D12.

What that gives you is more consistent moderate damage. Adding this to your STR bonus and Power Attack damage and you'll be better able to count on a good solid hit, rather than mourning the low rolls and rejoicing at the high rolls. Consistency has a value. The same logic applies to the crits. The Greatsword give you more often but less spectacular criticals, while the Greataxe gives you fewer but more criticals, which can be spectacular but not if you rolled low on the D12.

As you advance levels these differences tend to disappear, as your PA and other Feat damage starts to overtake the amount done by the weapon alone and make it less relevant.

Ok, all that said, go with the Spiked Chain.

For the cost of an EW Feat you gain much of the versatility laid out by Person_Man, without having to buy and continually upgrade multiple weapons. He listed 5 melee weapons, far more than you'll be able to easily keep track of, carry, and craft out of special materials and enchant as your character advances.

Reach attack? Check.
Adjacent attack with no need to take the Short Haft Feat or to purchase and enchant and/or craft out of special materials armor spikes? Check.
Bell curve damage (2d4 averages 5 points, just 1.5 less than the Greataxe and 2 less than the Greatsword) for consistent damage output? Check.
Trip weapon? Check.
Disarm weapon? Check.
Attacks vs. Touch Armor? Check (trip).

It's got it all with very little drawback, and those are in place of the other drawbacks of multiple weapon purchase, multiple weapon enchantment and/or special materials, no need for Half Haft or Quick Draw Feats.

And as you advance in level, if you chose to, you can purchase other Feats which offer a lot of synergy with the Spiked Chain:

Combat Expertise
- Improved Trip
- Improved Disarm
Power Attack (you already have this)
- Cleave - Really great synergy here, your Cleave attack can reach any enemy in one of the 24 squares surrounding you, better than any other weapon in the game.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-18, 12:10 AM
Great Cleave, too. Just because.

Throw in Rombilar's Gambit if you want to be really cheesy.

And the best part? The spellcasters will love you for it. :smallcool:

Kompera
2008-02-18, 03:58 AM
Great Cleave, too. Just because.

Throw in Rombilar's Gambit if you want to be really cheesy.

And the best part? The spellcasters will love you for it. :smallcool:
Great Cleave is not usually worthwhile. Against any foes you can expect to get more then a single kill against in a single round, you don't need to spend a Feat just to kill them faster. And against any more challenging opponent it'll be a rare event for you to get more than a single kill in a single round, so you won't get much use out of your Feat.

Chronicled
2008-02-18, 09:30 AM
It's got it all with very little drawback, and those are in place of the other drawbacks of multiple weapon purchase, multiple weapon enchantment and/or special materials, no need for Half Haft or Quick Draw Feats.

Um, how is negating the need for weapons made from special materials? You'll need a spiked chain of adamantine, silver, and cold iron. All of which need to be at least +1.

Also, unlike EWP: Spiked Chain, Quick Draw has tactical advantages such as being able to full attack in a round you don't have a weapon drawn (surprise!), being able to full attack with thrown weapons, and instantly replacing a disarmed weapon. One of my friends has commented that it's a favorite feat of his, not due to its power but because of its versatility; I've seen him make better use of Quick Draw than I thought possible. Neither is a great feat, but there's been worse printed.

Talic
2008-02-18, 09:52 AM
I'm playing a half orc barbarian and I'm wondering if it's better to get a greataxe than a greatsword or another weapon. Could anyone give me their advise on a weapon for a starting out barbarian?

Risk taker: Greataxe
Sure thing: Greatsword

Pick whichever one suits you most.

Greataxes will crit targets with an AC less than your attack bonus +20 about half as often, but do about, on average, 50% more damage when they hit.

Greataxes will crit targets with an AC equal or greater than your attack bonus +20 about the same as greatswords (1 in 400 odds), and will also do about 50% more damage.

Because the greataxe isn't a x4 crit, the parity does slightly fall to the greatsword, though a greatsword's damage distribution will be close to 7 much more often than the greatsword, which is statistically more likely to roll a 12. Or a 1.

(odds for 2d6 rolling a 12 are 1 in 36. odds of 1d12 are 1 in 12. However, greatswords cannot roll a 1, and have a 1 in 36 chance of rolling a 2, whereas the chance of a 1 or 2 with a greataxe is 1 in 6. So greatsword comes out slightly ahead in damage distribution as well, albeit with a lower chance for the flashy max damage hits.)

Talic
2008-02-18, 09:54 AM
Great Cleave is not usually worthwhile. Against any foes you can expect to get more then a single kill against in a single round, you don't need to spend a Feat just to kill them faster. And against any more challenging opponent it'll be a rare event for you to get more than a single kill in a single round, so you won't get much use out of your Feat.

Occasionally, creatures with low defenses and status effect attacks, like shadows, will warrant this. Still, it's remarkably situational.

Idea Man
2008-02-18, 06:01 PM
So, keeping a weapon with mighty cleaving for those off occasions would be a good idea, rather than use one of your feats.

Person_Man
2008-02-19, 10:35 AM
the max gold for a lvl 1 character is 240, a repeating crossbow is 250.
a greatsword is 50.
a guisame is like 25.
nets are pretty cheep and so is a lance

All of the weapons I suggested can be purchased or found by level 3ish using standard wealth by level. You can buy or find the situational stuff (heavy repeating crossbow, poison, special materials) last, since its unlikely that a 1st level character would have to fight a flying enemy, werewolves, etc.

A very common mistake for players is to invest all of their money in 1 or 2 items, to the exclusion of all other items. While this is often a good idea at high levels, when a meatshield could conceivably have access to flight, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc., at low-mid levels you're usually much better off having a diverse set of situational weapons, and investing the bulk of your gp in armor and other cheap items. Damage reduction in particular is a huge issue for mid-level characters, but in many cases its a joke once you get to higher levels and have a reasonable damage combo going.

Also, Cleave is a great feat at low levels when you have few attacks and your enemies have few hit points. But at higher levels, you're much better off with other feats, which provide scaled damage or extra attacks virtually every round.

Great Cleave is almost always a poor idea. It's highly unlikely for a PC to threaten more then 2 enemies and drop 2 enemies in 1 round. So its a highly inefficient way to spend a feat.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-19, 10:50 AM
Two-handed melee weapons get Str Bonus x1.5 to their damage bonus.

Person Man brings up a good point: Players typically stick to one weapon, which often leads players to get stuck in a position where their weapons are ineffective.
Then people complain of the "golf bag" syndrome.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-19, 01:03 PM
I've found that a raging half orc barbarian punches through DR as little more then a joke most of the time. That said, keeping a cold iron weapon, having someone that can align your weapon in a pinch, or toting around oils of bless weapon at low levels is very useful, cause demons and devils can sport nasty DR mixed with nasty abilities at surprisingly low CRs. Still, usually such DR heavy creatures tend to give the party that doesn't have the raging barbarian along for the ride the problems.

As to your weapons: I've drawn the conclusion that the Falchion and the Spiked Chain are the best two two-handed weapons in core. The Falchion for it's 18-20 crit range (which becomes 15-20 when you make it keen), and the spiked chain because it has 10' and 5' reach. The true powers of a spiked chain don't really come into play however until you combine it with Enlarge Person, which lends you 20' reach. The reason I don't like most reach weapons is because they don't stack very well with enlarge person and hence make you monk/rogue bait.

Still, if you're not going for mechanically the most powerful weapon, go with whatever feels right. Does your barbarian come from a nomadic tribe, or is he just a gaurdsman with a really bad temper?

Crow
2008-02-20, 03:47 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you don't select a weapon focus or exotic proficiency.

Not becasue they suck, but because in my experience, a non-specializing barbarian just rocks. You can use any weapon you find (non-exotic), and keep a golf bag of weapons in different materials without having to go through the trouble of looking for one weapon type specifically. Anything that pops up in a random treasure hoard can be of use to you!

If you have that random +4 Flaming Burst light flail show up, you don't have to sell it becasue nobody "uses" that weapon.

leperkhaun
2008-02-20, 04:06 AM
multipule weapons are easy.

you need 1 big bad highly enchanted weapon.

then all you need are....

1 adamantine
1 cold iron
1 silver

1 wand of magic weapon
1 wand of align weapon

OR....get the mettline weapon property and just need a wand of align weapon.

Crow
2008-02-20, 04:10 AM
Good luck finding those with a DM who doesn't have "magic shoppes". Your chances of finding a "useless" weapon tend to be much higher.

sikyon
2008-02-20, 04:23 AM
The more frequent crits might serve you better in the long run, if you Power Attack with a high enough Strength your 2x crits might still be fight-ending on their own. Gaining the Keen ability on your weapon benefits a Greatsword to a larger extent than the Greataxe, since it's a +10% chance to crit versus a +5% chance to crit.

Nope, it benifits both about equally. Greatsword gets a better threat range increase than greataxe, but greataxe deals more damamge on a crit so it makes more out of the threatrange.

Smaller critrange is better if you fight monsters with High AC, so that you've basically reduced the crit range of the greatsword because you can't hit on your lower crits.

Larger critrange helps in general if your opponent is low enough on health so that a normal hit won't kill him, but a 2x crit will kill him, but 3x crit is just discarding some of the damage.

I suggest Greatsword. You're already introducing randomness into the system by rolling dice, so tactically it is far more sound to go with the greatsword thanks to the better damage distribution. It lets you plan more accuratly, so that's a huge help.

Unless hulk smash, in which case go for the axe as it is awsome.

alexl86
2008-04-20, 10:02 PM
I did some statistics for this a while back to see which weapons would perform best in combat, with the focus on two-handed melee weapons. A Greatsword always performs better than a Greataxe, if they have similar properties.

The average damage of a Greatsword is 7, while the average of a Greataxe is 6.5. The chance of getting a critical hit is 10 and 5% respectively. A critical hit with a Greatsword would deal on average 14 damage, while the greataxe 19.5. We multiply the extra damage with the chance of a crit to find the average damage you can expect. The average damage you can expect from the weapons are 7,7 and 7,15 respectively.

Other weapons of interest are Scythe and Falchion. Both deal less damage, but have better criticals and threat range respectively. They both deal an average of 5 damage, the Scythe has x4 criticals, while the Falchion has a 15% chance to score one. The scythe will do an average of 20 damage on a critical hit, while the Falchion will do 10. The Falchion will score critical hits much more often. The average increase to both are 0,75 damage, which is higher than either Greatsword or Greataxe. But the average damage is still only 5,75 with either... so why bother?

Well, if your character makes it to level 8 and you invest in the improved critical feat(well worth it with a Scythe or Falchion), your chance of a critical hit doubles with the weapon of your choosing. If you then proceed to getting the weapon enchanted by flaming burst(just an example), you'll either land higher damage crits consistently or higher damage. Since these enchants doesn't relate to the base damage, only the base threat range or crit multiplier, an enchanted Scythe or Falchion will make better use of the enchant... but it still won't do more damage.

At least not until we add the strength damage. Strength damage, like damage from enchantment takes no consideration to base damage and due to the nature of critical hits with the Scythe and falchion will have a more significant increase to damage than a Greatsword or a Greataxe. That said, you also need a significant increase in strength to surpass the Greatsword, but it's doable. Of course, this is strictly high level talk, but with a strength of 22 and a an enchant your falchion will deal as much damage as a Greataxe with the same properties. Any increase in damage that affects critical hits is in general better for a Scythe or Falchion, than for a Greatsword or Greataxe.

If you doubt you'll make it to level 8, greatsword is the best pick from a roll playing perspective. Beyond 8, a Falchion will take better advantage of certain damage bonuses.

Talya
2008-04-20, 10:18 PM
Gaining the Keen ability on your weapon benefits a Greatsword to a larger extent than the Greataxe, since it's a +10% chance to crit versus a +5% chance to crit.



This is mathematically wrong.

Let's look at 2 scenarios:

Standard Greatsword
Let's say over four rolls you luck out and get: 17, 18, 19, 20
Let's say you confirm all crits.
Let's say you roll average damage on every die.

You do: 7 + 7 + 14 + 14 = 42 damage.

Standard Greataxe
Let's say over four rolls you luck out and get: 17, 18, 19, 20
Let's say you confirm all crits.
Let's say you roll average damage +0.5 on every die.

You do 7 + 7 + 7 + 21 = 42 damage.

With me so far? Now let's apply the keen ability (or improved crit) to both of those weapons above:

Damage for Keen Greatsword: 14 + 14 + 14 + 14 = 56
Damage for Keen Greataxe: 7 + 7 + 21 + 21 = 56.

They are both the same, even with Keen.

The long term advantage for the greatsword is only the + 0.5 damage it does per hit.
The long term advantage for the greataxe is a negligible crit advantage when the AC of the opponent is so high you need to roll a natural 20 to hit it. (The odds of a crit in these cases are a paltry 1-in-400 in both cases, but the greataxe will do more damage in those rare instances.)

The greatsword is also more consistent in its damage, the greataxe will have more hits at the extremes. This is neither an advantage or disadvantage, but a lot of people like predictability.

Kompera
2008-04-20, 11:05 PM
This is mathematically wrong.
Your model is flawed because you're only looking at four possible outcomes out of 20, which when modified by keen/improved crit skews the results by giving more weight to crits than will appear in practice.

You also are rounding the damage for the Battleaxe up, further skewing the results.

You have to consider all 20 possible outcomes, and use actual averages, to give accurate results:

Let's say you confirm all crits.
Let's say you roll average damage on every die.

Standard Greatsword (2x crits on 19-20)
You do: ((7 * 18)+(14 * 2))/20 = 7.7 damage on average

Standard Greataxe (3x crits on 20)
You do ((6.5 * 19)+(19.5))/20 = 7.15 damage on average

(Note that these figures are exactly as stated by alexl86)

Now apply Keen/Improved crit:

Keen/Improved Crit Greatsword (2x crits on 17-20)
You do: ((7 * 16)+(14 * 4))/20 = 8.4 damage on average

Keen/Improved Crit Greataxe (3x crits on 19-20)
You do ((6.5 * 18)+(19.5 * 2))/20 = 7.8 damage on average


The greatsword is also more consistent in its damage, the greataxe will have more hits at the extremes. This is neither an advantage or disadvantage, but a lot of people like predictability.
The weapon which contributes a more average damage has the advantage in situations where a low damage roll may not penetrate DR but a moderate roll will.

FlyMolo
2008-04-20, 11:38 PM
The weapon which contributes a more average damage has the advantage in situations where a low damage roll may not penetrate DR but a moderate roll will.

Mark up the DR a bit, and the chances of rolling enough to break DR 10, frinstance, with a greatsword are very low (1/9). However, a greataxe will have a 1/6 chance of bypassing DR. You see where I'm going.

And people, it's mathematically very simple, and despite Kompera's rather facetious DR example, their math works out right. (Third person indeterminate? Yo? They? What the heck, right.)

Greatsword has more predictability, but Greataxes have more fun.

"Gentlemen prefer Greataxes"

Kompera
2008-04-21, 01:04 AM
And people, it's mathematically very simple, and despite Kompera's rather facetious DR example, their math works out right.

Care to show some examples of how my example is 'facetious'?

I'll go first, using your 10 DR example.

10 DR to overcome
STR 18 = +6 damage
Greatsword chance to roll 2-4 damage and 'bounce' off of the DR 10 = 4 in 36 or ~11%
Greataxe chance to roll 1-4 damage and 'bounce' off of the DR 10 = 4 in 12 or ~33%
This example ignores criticals, which tends to show the Greataxe in a better light as on any critical the Greatsword only rolls 4 or less damage 1 chance in 36 while the Greataxe rolls 4 or less (3, actually) damage 1 chance in 12.

Greataxe net chance to be ineffective: Three times that of Greatsword

Conclusion: The high average damage for the Greatsword is superior at overcoming DR 10.

alexl86
2008-04-22, 12:01 PM
Actually, the chances are 19%, there are 21 possible combinations and 4 of them adds up to a 4 or less. Even if you're to consider criticals, the Greatsword's chance is twice that of a Greataxe, which cancels out that advantage.

Higher DR should give the Greataxe an advantage though.

Lets put this theory to the test, I'll start at DR 8 and stop at 15. There's no point below 8 because the Greatsword doesn't go that low if the wielder's strength is 18.

DR vs. Greataxe

DR 8: 2/12=16,6% chance to be ineffective
DR 10: 4/12=33,3% as pointed out above
DR 12: 6/12=50% Down to 50% damage
DR 14: 8/12=66,6% 2/3rd chance to have no effect
DR 15: 9/12=75% 1/4 chance to deal damage... have your Wizard blast it with a fireball

DR vs. Greatsword

DR 8: 1/21=4,7% which is much better.
DR 10: 4/21=19% still much better
DR 12: 9/21= 42,8% it's still better, but not by as much
DR 14: 15/21= 71,4% Greataxe is better than the Greatsword now
DR 15: 17/21= 80,9% Go with the fireball approach

As you can see, the Greataxe performs better against high DR, but it's not really noticeable to warrant a change. By the time you encounter high DR, your weapon is probably enchanted anyway.

Using a greataxe is riskier, but there's some fun to be had because of that. You'll roll high more often, but also low. Your crits will deal high damage, but they're more rare.

Jasdoif
2008-04-22, 02:32 PM
I'll just get some of the math out of the way....

A greataxe's damage is rather straightforward, there's a one-in-twelve chance of each possible outcome.

A greatsword, meanwhile has 36 possible outcomes, because it's based on two d6s.{table]|(1)|(2)|(3)|(4)|(5)|(6)
(1)|2|3|4|5|6|7
(2)|3|4|5|6|7|8
(3)|4|5|6|7|8|9
(4)|5|6|7|8|9|10
(5)|6|7|8|9|10|11
(6)|7|8|9|10|11|12[/table]


Conveniently 12 is a factor of 36, so by multiplying by 3/3 on the greataxe we get the same scale.{table=head]Exact|Greatsword(out of 36)|Greataxe[br](out of 36)
1|0|3
2|1|3
3|2|3
4|3|3
5|4|3
6|5|3
7|6|3
8|5|3
9|4|3
10|3|3
11|2|3
12|1|3[/table]

But more useful is the odds of getting a particular number or [b]better.

{table=head]Minimum|Greatsword[br](out of 36)|Greataxe[br](out of 36)
1|36|36
2|36|33
3|35|30
4|33|27
5|30|24
6|26|21
7|21|18
8|15|15
9|10|12
10|6|9
11|3|6
12|1|3[/table]

So if you need the weapon's base damage to come out higher then 8, you'll be better off with the greataxe. However the odds aren't exactly good in that case; even if you need "just" a minimum of 9 you're looking at only a one-in-three chance of success.

As for crits, it's true that a good x3 crit from a greataxe can take a problem straight out, but on the other hand the greatsword is more likely to have a decent number to be doubled, and is more likely to score a threat as well.

Chronos
2008-04-22, 02:34 PM
But it's more than just a question of "effective" or "not effective". You also want to look at the average damage. If, for instance, the DR is 6 more than your bonus damage (e.g., if bonus damage is +4 from Str etc., but the DR is 10), then the Greatsword has a 7/12 chance of doing damage, but the Greataxe has only a 1/2 chance (6/12) of doing damage. So just looking at chance to do damage, the greatsword would be better.

However, if we look at average damage, the picture changes. The greatsword has a 15/36 chance of doing 0, a 6/36 chance of doing 1, a 5/36 chance of doing 2, a 4/36 of doing 3, a 3/36 chance of 4, a 2/36 of 5, and a 1/36 chance of doing 6. This gives the greatsword an average damage of 1.5 points, after DR. With the axe, on the other hand, we have a 6/12 chance of doing 0, a 1/12 of 1, a 1/12 of 2, a 1/12 of 3, a 1/12 of 4, a 1/12 of 5, and a 1/12 of 6. This gives us an average damage of 1.75, clearly superior to the sword.

In other words: The sword has a greater chance of overcoming the DR. But when the axe does overcome the DR, it's more likely to overcome it by a lot (it's also more likely to fail to overcome it by a lot, but if you fail to overcome DR, it doesn't matter how close you were). So the greataxe is actually better vs. DR.