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Human Paragon 3
2008-02-15, 04:21 PM
Just read ToB and want to start up a discussion about the martial adept classes. Firstly, I like the book and I'm glad I finally got around to reading it.

Looking at the classes, it seems to me that swordsage is the weakest. Yes, they get access to more disciplines, especially the "supernatural" disciplines, but it seems to me that the other disciplines have just as much potential for damage output- in fact, almost always more. Coupled with the full BAB and faster manuever recovery methods of the other two initiator classes, swordsage seems like a trap.

On the other hand, people on the board seem rather enthusiastic about swordsage, so am I missing something, or is swordsage overrated?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-15, 04:40 PM
Four words: Balance in The Sky.

Many words: Time Stands Still, Thrall of Demogorgon, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip, Raging Mongoose, Belt of Battle, Suppah PWN weapon.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-15, 05:00 PM
Just read ToB and want to start up a discussion about the martial adept classes. Firstly, I like the book and I'm glad I finally got around to reading it.

Looking at the classes, it seems to me that swordsage is the weakest. Yes, they get access to more disciplines, especially the "supernatural" disciplines, but it seems to me that the other disciplines have just as much potential for damage output- in fact, almost always more. Coupled with the full BAB and faster manuever recovery methods of the other two initiator classes, swordsage seems like a trap.

On the other hand, people on the board seem rather enthusiastic about swordsage, so am I missing something, or is swordsage overrated?

It's almost taken for granted though, that if you're a serious Swordsage you'll take adaptive Style and be able to recover/ready all your manuevers as a full round action. It does mean that you'll be down one Feat, though.

One of the things in the Swordsage's favor is also the selection of the disciplines: Swordsage gets more mystical and supernatural attacks in their disciplines. At second level Swordsages also get to add their Wisdom bonus to their AC, making them more difficult to hit than even Monks usually are.

They also make a great dip class, because you get to start off with 6 manuevers at your ECL/2+1 initiator level if you dive into the class later on. They don't start off at level one, like you might expect. It's a quick wayto grab a bunch of useful mid level manuevers.

deadseashoals
2008-02-15, 05:09 PM
They don't really have problems with damage, though they are more dependent on TWF for damage dealing. They don't really have too many problems hitting either. The free weapon focus helps make up for the lost BAB, and they don't have to use Power Attack, and they are better able to take advantage of Weapon Finesse, so it's usually a wash. Also, since they have more maneuvers readied, they tend not to gas as fast as a Warblade (Crusaders are of course, the best at not running out of gas), and Adaptive Style means their recovery method is only a little worse than a Warblade anyway.

Meloku
2008-02-15, 05:58 PM
Also, since they have more maneuvers readied, they tend not to gas as fast as a Warblade (Crusaders are of course, the best at not running out of gas), and Adaptive Style means their recovery method is only a little worse than a Warblade anyway.

Warblade is a single swift action to recover all expended manuvers, so they're not very far behind crusader's at not running out of gas without a feat to compensate (They just can't use a boost or a counter on one of their turns after they've expended their manuvers, but otherwise aren't penalized)

Proven_Paradox
2008-02-15, 05:59 PM
Swordsage maneuvers also aren't solely dedicated to damage dealing, especially when you look at Shadow Hand and Setting Sun maneuvers. I personally think Devoted Spirit's combination of healing and excellent damage capabilities make it the strongest school, but Shadow Hand's maneuverability and crippling strikes make it a very, very close second. Also, for level 20, dual boosting is a BIG DEAL.

I do think that crusader is the strongest of the three classes (the random factor just means you need to ready maneuvers that are always useful, and there is no shortage of those in Devoted Spirit and White Raven) but I would put swordsage and warblade at the same level. Swordsage shouldn't be the party's primary front-liner--they have the lowest HP of the three and so wouldn't hold up long enough. However, skirmisher, opportunistic damage dealer, and damned hard to kill, there are few spots where the swordsage isn't going to do well.

Plus, as others have mentioned, light armor classes, especially ones that have some wisdom, get a rather crazy boost from a 2 level dip in swordsage in higher levels.

Jerthanis
2008-02-15, 06:05 PM
I do think the classes have some disparity in power, but it's not too extreme. I'd say Crusaders are the best by a narrow margin above Warblades, who are themselves a narrow margin above Swordsages from a pure mechanical power sense, but Swordsages have a lot of good stuff going for them. They're just hugely fun to play, and are themselves no slouch, especially when it comes to stances.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-15, 06:08 PM
Though, if you use baffling defense, a swordsage can be a brutal deflect tank, to the point of being unhittable if you use the 1 as -10 and 20 as 30's variant for crits and misses.

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-15, 06:11 PM
The thing with swordsages is that they take a bit more thinking than the other classes. They truly are on par with Warblade and Crusader. You just have to be good at looking out for combos. Also, I love swordsage because I just think its a cool class. I love sneaky warriors :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-02-15, 06:17 PM
Can a Warblade recover his maneuvers by using a swift action and following up with a Strike? Or does he have to perform a non-maneuver melee attack/charge in order to recover his maneuvers?

AslanCross
2008-02-15, 06:25 PM
Can a Warblade recover his maneuvers by using a swift action and following up with a Strike? Or does he have to perform a non-maneuver melee attack/charge in order to recover his maneuvers?

The rules explicitly say that you can't recover in the same round you do a strike.
You can do anything else during that turn, however. The rules say you can simply flourish with your weapon and that'll be enough.

In practice, I've seen the Swordsage do serious stuff (although this is a multiclass TWF Ranger/Scout/Swordsage). In her first battle with her Swordsage level, she cut a drow ninja to pieces while cauterizing the remains in one Burning Blade-enhanced full attack. I think the drow was at -32 after that.

Darrin
2008-02-18, 08:12 AM
The thing with swordsages is that they take a bit more thinking than the other classes. They truly are on par with Warblade and Crusader. You just have to be good at looking out for combos.

The Crusader is like a pick-up truck: simple workhorse, can carry a lot of weight, "git 'er done", etc.

The Warblade is more of a sports car, a little more optimized, suitable for "impress the ladies" kind of flash but also something you can drive over to the supermarket to pick up a carton of milk.

The SwordSage is a Formula 1 race car. Terrible for everyday street driving, definitely not something you can run errands in. However, if you know how to optimize it, it will blow all the other cars away. It takes a lot more effort, careful planning, and resource management to get a SwordSage to click, but once you figure out what you want it to do, it will do it easier and quicker than any of the other Martial Adept classes.