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Overlard
2008-02-15, 05:53 PM
I've started looking through the Eberron campaign setting and books, and now I've got half a dozen warforged character ideas, double that for changelings, and a couple of kalashtar ones too.

But when it comes to shifters, I'm drawing blanks. Obviously they'll make good barbarians and rangers, but what else? Maybe psychic warriors?

The hit to two mental stats means that arcane classes suffer. Clerics and druids less so I guess, but they've got better things to do in combat than use their shifting. Rogues would be OK, but they lose two very important stats, and will probably have a low Con so their shifting won't last long, and they're too feat-hungry to be able to spend many on shifter feats.

Really, all I've come up with is psychic warrior, and even then I'm not too sure.

Anyone know where else shifters can shine?

AslanCross
2008-02-15, 06:00 PM
They'd make good martial adepts too, especially Swordsage. They take hits to Int, though, which makes them slightly less effective as Warblades.

Zincorium
2008-02-15, 06:03 PM
Honestly, where shifters shine is in their choice of PrCs for a melee class.

Look at:
Warshaper (complete warrior)
Weretouched master (eberron campaign setting)

And think about how dangerous they'll end up.

But yeah, psychic warrior is solid, swordsage is pretty cool, and there's really no drawback to ranger. There's a feat out there called Serenity (I think it's in some dragon magazine) that allows all of a paladin's abilities to go off of wisdom, so if you can use that you can have a very unique character.

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-15, 06:05 PM
Hm...I've actually played a really good rogue shifter, and it would be better as a swordsage though. I played it as a dex-based thrower and it turned out great. Longstrider with Longstrider Elite, Shifter Agility, and Extra Trait (Cliffwalk). Right there I had a pretty good build at level 3 (with flaws). I was a master of hiding and not at all speced for traps. I was one of the most useful combatants since it was a dungeon crawl, I had amazing mobility. Though I guess if you don't have the flaws (which most shifter's need) I could have just gone with a cliffwalker and be done with it. Though, the Druid substitution levels are great for dipping.

If you want a heartier role, a warblade or crusader would probably work out very well. The int penalty doesn't mess too well with the warblade, but it's not that bad.

Leliel
2008-02-15, 06:06 PM
BAD JOKE ALERT:

"Shifters...What are they good for? Absolutely nuthin'...Unh!"

RTGoodman
2008-02-15, 06:08 PM
Absolutely nothing!

No, wait, that's War I'm thinking of...



If I remember correctly, there's some sort of Shifter variant in Races of Eberron (I think) that get a Wisdom bonus when they shift (so they make better Druids or Clerics). Either that, or someone was really trying to cheat last semester by just making stuff up...

And Warshaper definitely can't hurt if you're a melee class, as Zincorium said.



EDIT: Gah! Ninja'd by someone stealing my joke!

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-15, 07:50 PM
They're the best at what they do, and what they do ain't pretty.

Sorry.

Keld Denar
2008-02-15, 07:54 PM
The bear shifter can do some pretty sick stuff as a grappler. Weretouched master makes it even better. I haven't really played around with it much, but it looked like a lot of fun. There aren't too many ways to get Improved GRAB and that's one of them. Attack first, hug later.

Leon
2008-02-15, 08:32 PM
Oh Noes they have a -2 to the prime arcane stats well that is no reason to not play a Arcane using shifter, its like saying elves shouldn't be melee combatants due to the -2 con

Shifters have a nice sub class for druids, a really nice shifter only PrC for druids, do well in most martial classes aswell as spell casting ones

comicshorse
2008-02-15, 09:07 PM
The Reach Runner Prestige Career ( Races of Eberron p153) is damn good for a ranger, lots of class abilities to make you the fastest and most agile tracker in the business. Or attacker if you favour lots of hit and run attacks

Maerok
2008-02-15, 09:10 PM
What's the difference between a changeling and a shifter, and a doppelganger at that?

Zincorium
2008-02-15, 09:20 PM
What's the difference between a changeling and a shifter, and a doppelganger at that?

Shifter - Distant descendant of lycanthropes.
Changling - Distant descendant of dopplegangers.
Doppleganger - Magically creature able to take shape of humanoids.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-02-16, 01:15 AM
More specifically:

Shifters have a minor shapeshifting ability X times per day that gives them an animal aspect and a small stat boost. In-character, many shifters dispute descent from lycanthropes.

Changelings have a minor shapeshifting ability at will that works like a Disguise Self spell, only with physical changes rather than illusory ones. In-character, many changelings dispute descent from doppelgangers.

Doppelgangers are these things (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/doppelganger.htm). No one really knows where they're from.

SadisticFishing
2008-02-16, 01:22 AM
Wolverine:

Shifter Fighter 4/Barbarian 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Weretouched Master 5/Warshaper 4.

Grab that feat that works when you're raging and shifting, the final build ends up with like.. 50 strength, 40 con, 32 dex... Yeah. Choose Tiger for the Weretouched thing.

Edit: Oh, and natural attacks of: 2 claws, 1 bite, unarmed strike +17/12/7/2. Power Attack, Leap Attack, crit on a 19 - hurt things. A lot.

Admiral Squish
2008-02-16, 01:25 AM
I made a shifter swiftwing sorcerer. He shifted quick, flew out of the way, and perched somewhere out of reach before raining fireballs on the guy. Took a turn to get set up, but he was pretty much untouchable, and he didn't have to waste a spell known slot on fly. He later also got the dreamsight trait, which got pretty interesting.

AslanCross
2008-02-16, 01:58 AM
Wolverine

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the artwork in the ECS for Shifters. A female Wolverine. D:

Hyrael
2008-02-16, 02:06 AM
Shifters are LA +0 lycanthropes/wolverene.

Changelings are LA +0 dopplegangers.

Both are cool races.

There is indeed a Wis-bonus shifter trait. It's good for druids.

Shifters make good scouts too, as well as rogues. they really benefit from the longstrider trait. not bad ninjas either, though that does kind of break my brain.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-16, 03:18 AM
My group solved it this way.

High Charisma Shifters?

Catgirls.
Bunnygirls
Foxgirls

:-)

Gorbash
2008-02-16, 07:56 AM
Wolverine:

Shifter Fighter 4/Barbarian 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Weretouched Master 5/Warshaper 4.

Grab that feat that works when you're raging and shifting, the final build ends up with like.. 50 strength, 40 con, 32 dex... Yeah. Choose Tiger for the Weretouched thing.

Edit: Oh, and natural attacks of: 2 claws, 1 bite, unarmed strike +17/12/7/2. Power Attack, Leap Attack, crit on a 19 - hurt things. A lot.

Fist of the Forest? Where's that from?

Talic
2008-02-16, 07:58 AM
Fist of the Forest? Where's that from?

The real question is, why post a level 20 build that can get beat by a level 12 wizard?

Leon
2008-02-16, 08:13 AM
Fist of the Forest? Where's that from?

Complete Champion

Talya
2008-02-16, 08:54 AM
Their main racial ability needs to scale in uses per day, or perhaps have a feat available for extra shifting. Once per day for that paltry time is pathetic. To be balanced, they need to be shifting in combat as the norm.

The Demented One
2008-02-16, 09:03 AM
Their main racial ability needs to scale in uses per day, or perhaps have a feat available for extra shifting. Once per day for that paltry time is pathetic. To be balanced, they need to be shifting in combat as the norm.
The more shifter feats you have, the more you can shift and the longer you stay shifted.

Zincorium
2008-02-16, 09:05 AM
Their main racial ability needs to scale in uses per day, or perhaps have a feat available for extra shifting. Once per day for that paltry time is pathetic. To be balanced, they need to be shifting in combat as the norm.

Shifter feats, Talya, shifter feats.

An additional round for every feat, another use per day for every two feats taken, and many of the feats, like shifter healing, get better the more feats you spend on them.

You get 7 general feats. Spend 6 of those on shifter feats, and surely you can find that many that'll be useful, and you'll be shifting for 9+con rounds and can do so four times per day.

Considering that:

A. The game is balanced for 4 encounters per day by default.
B. Shifting has no drawbacks when it ends, so if combat lasts more than the number of rounds you have you're not totally screwed.

I don't think it's a major problem.

Collin152
2008-02-16, 02:02 PM
BAD JOKE ALERT:

"Shifters...What are they good for? Absolutely nuthin'...Unh!"

I wanted to do that...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-16, 02:15 PM
That's the first thing I thought when I saw the artwork in the ECS for Shifters. A female Wolverine. D:You mean X-23?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/X-23Unleashed.jpg/250px-X-23Unleashed.jpg

Gorbash
2008-02-16, 02:16 PM
I played a Shifter (Longstride and Beasthide or Wildhunt, can't remember) Ranger/Barbarian/Reach Runner once, and he was a-wesome. With a charge range of about 140 ft and getting a full attack at the end of that at the beggining of the round with a raging, shifting, power attacking and two-handed weapon wielding monster, let me tell you, he was pretty good. Not to mention his obvious skill and tactical advantages...

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-16, 02:38 PM
BAD JOKE ALERT:

"Shifters...What are they good for? Absolutely nuthin'...Unh!"

"Well, freein' slaves..."

Collin152
2008-02-16, 03:44 PM
You mean X-23?


What purpose could a foot claw possibly serve?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-16, 03:46 PM
She has monk levels and needs to be able to make unarmed attacks with anything?

Serpent
2008-02-16, 03:46 PM
I wouldn't wanna get kicked in the head by that.

Mx.Silver
2008-02-16, 03:52 PM
What purpose could a foot claw possibly serve?

Well, it would have some uses for climbing walls/cliffs/etc.

Gorbash
2008-02-16, 04:18 PM
Wolverine:

Shifter Fighter 4/Barbarian 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Weretouched Master 5/Warshaper 4.

Grab that feat that works when you're raging and shifting, the final build ends up with like.. 50 strength, 40 con, 32 dex... Yeah. Choose Tiger for the Weretouched thing.

You do know there's an errata for Eberron Campaign Setting, and Werethouched Master now doesn't get those insane stat bonuses (like +12 str for Tiger)?

Collin152
2008-02-16, 04:19 PM
Well, it would have some uses for climbing walls/cliffs/etc.

Has wolverine ever had problems in those regards?

Zincorium
2008-02-16, 04:33 PM
You do know there's an errata for Eberron Campaign Setting, and Werethouched Master now doesn't get those insane stat bonuses (like +12 str for Tiger)?

Indeed, but now wolf is just as legitimate an option as tiger or bear is. Frankly it was pretty dang lopsided before. The class is still totally worth it, if only for improved grab or the wolf tripping ability (add improved trip if you don't see why it's so cool).

Annarrkkii
2008-02-16, 05:36 PM
You can do fun things with Shifters. There primary function, sadly, is that they have a good cinematic feel for Eberron, and are fun to RP with the world's history. You can enhance this uselessness with similarly useless feats that seem to have been designed with them in mind—the Tiger Claw feats from ToB come to mind. Dramatic, but not particularly potent.

However, almost unintentionally, the Shifter can have some sick builds, most of which center around that shifting ability. On its own, it is only nice. Properly emphasized, it's very impressive.

Reaping Mauler can be nifty, though it's not a great PrC, if you go Unarmed Swordsage. Otherwise, you'll have MAD issues on its odd WIS dependency. Warshaper is a GREAT option, especially in conjunction with Weretouched Master. Reach Runner can be good if you're a Ranger-based or Ranger-dipped build, as has been mentioned. The Races of Eberron offer nifty new options for Druids—and you can have some gorgeous combatants if you combine shifting with Wildshaping, Warshaper, Unarmed Swordsage for the WIS synergy and maneuvers, and whatever else you care to season it with.

Selrahc
2008-02-16, 05:51 PM
What purpose could a foot claw possibly serve?

Her fighting style is a lot more agile than Wolverines. So shes doing crazy jumps around combat, off enemies. And those enmies are left with giant stab wounds as a result.

It also means she brings in a lot of kicking moves, rather than being limited to hands as her only means of deadly attack.

And when you're fighting mooks, it helps that you're slicing at one with your hands, and then can just kick out and slit the throat of another, without even turning.

AslanCross
2008-02-16, 07:05 PM
You mean X-23?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/33/X-23Unleashed.jpg/250px-X-23Unleashed.jpg

Nope.
http://wizards.com/dnd/images/eb_gallery/82092.jpg Female wolverine with the same amount of body hair as the original.

That doesn't mean they can't look awesome, though.
http://wizards.com/dnd/images/ForgeWar_Gallery/105857.jpg

Charles Phipps
2008-02-16, 08:27 PM
I think this is a good example of a Shifter with the Longstrider feat.


http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9233/normalmopklkotmklhgsl4.jpg

mabriss lethe
2008-02-17, 02:19 AM
Shifters are fun, they're hard to optimize, but fun.

If you aren't playing TOB classes, they actually get a lot of milage out of Fighter. Even if they just use it as a few levels of dipping sauce for extra feats.

Monk makes for a pretty solid but slightly nonsensical choice, they do well enough with divine casting classes and can make for some odd, but fun warlock builds.

Of course, better minds than mine have already touched on Ranger and Rogue.

If you're afraid of those nasty -2's in arcane casting abilities but still want to play one, there are two ways to do it, play a sorceror or wizard and damn the consequences. (focus on buffs and things that don't require a save if you don't think you're up to snuff for the other spells) or the second option is to play an arcane casting class that doesn't absolutely need a super-high intelegence or charisma, (Warlock/d.fire adept comes to mind, as does hexblade and spellthief.)

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-17, 08:17 PM
Oh Noes they have a -2 to the prime arcane stats well that is no reason to not play a Arcane using shifter, its like saying elves shouldn't be melee combatants due to the -2 con

Shifters have a nice sub class for druids, a really nice shifter only PrC for druids, do well in most martial classes aswell as spell casting ones

Con is usually said to be the only stat that every class needs(I disagree, since casters seldom need to actually worry about being hit). However, for a fighter, it's usually somewhere in second or third place. Comparing a -2 in arcane casting stats is more akin to saying Halflings or Gnomes(can't find too many Medium races with -2 Strength) shouldn't enter melee combat because they have -2 Strength.

SadisticFishing
2008-02-17, 08:27 PM
Hah, oh no, a level 20 wizard beats me, most of the time. That's true of everything, and this is better at lower and mid levels. Your saves are incredible, your touch AC is ridiculous (50+)... Even a wizard'll have a hard time killing you if you keep some Rods of Cancellation.

Fist of the Forest is a rather stupid prestige class from Complete Champion, it's very... VERY strong, but it's... stupid. It actually suits this character though.

SadisticFishing
2008-02-17, 08:29 PM
Con is usually said to be the only stat that every class needs(I disagree, since casters seldom need to actually worry about being hit). However, for a fighter, it's usually somewhere in second or third place. Comparing a -2 in arcane casting stats is more akin to saying Halflings or Gnomes(can't find too many Medium races with -2 Strength) shouldn't enter melee combat because they have -2 Strength.

No it isn't. Being small gives you a +1 to hit, which cancels out the major drawback of -2 strength, and if you take Weapon Finesse, you actually gain +hit.

-2 to a casting stat is dreadful. -1 to DCs, not as many spells cast per day, lowers the effective of some random spells, and weakens your most important skills (knowledge and spellcraft, as well as bluff for sorcerers).