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View Full Version : Help concerning balance of a homebrew class?



RollFourDropOne
2008-02-16, 01:39 AM
My group has been playing for a while using premade settings, etc and we finally decided with the end of our current campaign to strike off on our own as it were in a homebrew setting.

I encouraged them to think outside the box and pick something they thought would be fun that they might not normally play. Needless to say it came up as a very caster-heavy party (Abjurer, Shadowmage, Totemist, Beguiler), so I'm going to be cranking the enemy difficulty up to balance it out.

However, one of my players handed me a class he wrote that he wanted to play, and I'm curious what you think of it. Skill wise it seems pretty powerful, but in the combat department I'd say it could almost use a boost.

In the next post is the class as I recieved it.

RollFourDropOne
2008-02-16, 01:40 AM
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills
The Infiltrator’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at First Level: (8+Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int Modifier.


BAB F R W Special
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 Evasion (Lesser), Perception, Trapfinding
2nd +1 +0 +3 +0 Track, Trap Sense +1
3rd +1 +1 +3 +1 Uncanny Stealth (Move At Full Speed)
4th +2 +1 +4 +1 Uncanny Dodge (Dex to AC)
5th +2 +1 +4 +1 Duck Out, Poison Use (Safety)
6th +3 +2 +5 +2 Trap Sense +2
7th +3 +2 +5 +2 Skill Mastery (3+Int)
8th +4 +2 +6 +2 Nimble Precision (Balance at Full Speed)
9th +4 +3 +6 +3 Uncanny Stealth (Mask Sounds)
10th +5 +3 +7 +3 Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Trap Sense +3
11th +5 +3 +7 +3 Uncanny Dodge (Unflankable)
12th +6/+1 +4 +8 +4 Blank Slate
13th +6/+1 +4 +8 +4 Skill Prodigy
14th +7/+2 +4 +9 +4 Skill Mastery (6+Int), Trap Sense +4
15th +7/+2 +5 +9 +5 Poison Use (Potency), Uncanny Stealth (Run)
16th +8/+3 +5 +10 +5 Nimble Precision (Climb and Swim at Full Speed)
17th +8/+3 +5 +10 +5 Traceless
18th +9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Trap Sense +5
19th +9/+4 +6 +11 +6 Improved Tracking
20th +10/+5 +6 +12 +6 Evasion (Improved), Nimble Precision (No Provocation)

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Infiltrators are proficient with simple weapons, and light armor.
Evasion (Ex): At 1st level, an Infiltrator can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead takes one-quarter damage. Evasion can be used only if the Infiltrator is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Infiltrator does not gain the benefit of evasion. At 10th level, an Infiltrator takes no damage from a successful reflex save that would normally deal half damage. At 20th level, the Infiltrator takes only half damage from a failed reflex save.
Perception (Ex): Nothing is more important to an Infiltrator than being aware of their surroundings. At 1st level, an Infiltrator gains the ability to make Listen and Spot checks as a free action once per round.
Trapfinding (Ex): Infiltrators can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20. Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. Infiltrators can also use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it. An Infiltrator who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.
Track (Ex): At 2nd level, an Infiltrator may use the survival skill to track an enemy as per the feat. At 19th level, this ability improves to allow the Infiltrator to track at his full speed, twice his full speed (-5), or while running (-20)
Trap Sense (Ex): At 2nd level, an Infiltrator gains an intuitive sense that alerts him to danger from traps, giving a dodge bonus to reflex saves and AC against the attacks of traps equal to his current trap sense bonus.
Uncanny Stealth (Ex): At 3rd level, an Infiltrator may move at full speed while hiding or moving silently at no penalty. At 9th level, this ability expands to allow the Infiltrator even more stealth, increasing the DC to hear other actions he takes (combat, opening locks and doors) by +5. Finally, at 15th level, the Infiltrator may run while hiding or moving silently at no penalty.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at 4th level, an Infiltrator can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. At 11th level, the Infiltrator can no longer be flanked.
Duck Out (Ex): At 5th level, once per round an Infiltrator may Hide as a free action, so long as he is not currently being observed.
Poison Use (Ex): At 5th level, Infiltrators are thoroughly practiced in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade. At 15th level, an Infiltrator increases the DC of their poisons by 2.
Skill Mastery (Ex): At 7th level, an Infiltrator becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
Nimble Precision (Ex): At 8th level, an Infiltrator may move at full speed while balancing at no penalty. At 16th level, this ability increases to allow the Infiltrator to Climb and Swim at full speed with no penalty. Finally, at 20th level, movement by the Infiltrator no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): At 10th level, an Infiltrator can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow or projecting object, an Infiltrator can hide himself.
Blank Slate (Ex): At 12th level, an Infiltrator gains a bonus to Will saves equivalent to his intelligence modifier against attempts to determine his thoughts. Additionally, the DC to use Sense Motive to gain a Hunch against the Infiltrator is increased by 5.
Skill Prodigy (Ex): At 13th level, an Infiltrator gains a single +2 bonus to use each round on a skill check of his choice. This bonus may only be used on skills at their maximum rank.
Traceless (Ex): At 17th level, an Infiltrator gains a bonus against scrying equal to his Infiltrator class level.

Level20Commoner
2008-02-16, 03:55 AM
Regarding the Perception and Duck Out abilities, you will probably want to change them so that they allow the character only one free check per round. Quick Reconnoiter, which is a feat from Complete Adventurer that is a direct analog to the Perception ability, allows only one free check per round for good reason, and that is that free actions take little or no time to complete. Taking this to its logical conclusion, a character with Perception could continue to make Listen and Spot checks until he rolled a "20" in each, which would force the DM (you) to reveal useful information such as the fact that there are bandits at the end of a trail lying in wait to waylay the party or the square that an invisible creature is in. There is also a feat called Keen-Eared Scout from the Player's Handbook II which could be abused by making multiple Listen checks until a "20" was rolled. An interesting class nonetheless, although I wonder what good Uncanny Dodge will be to a character who is obviously not going to want to get mixed up in combat.
I agree with you completely, this class is not going to do much in combat. It swings a sword like a Wizard and bleeds like one too. If I were you, I would have the player take the Ranger class, erase all of the special abilities, then add in different ones until you can both agree on an appropriate power level. If he still wants to be a ninja smooth skill monkey, you can lower the hp to a d6, remove the good Fort save, or maybe nix the spells. That's my two cents.

RollFourDropOne
2008-02-16, 10:15 AM
fixed the free action stuff.

In regards to the ranger part, I'm not going to rewrite a class he doesn't want to be and force him to play it just because it might be easier.

Considering giving him use magic device on his skill list. That should go a long way towards evening him out.

Fiery Diamond
2008-02-16, 10:21 AM
I agree with Level 20 Commoner on some things. However, assuming you want to stick as close to what you have as possible, here's my critique (and I mean critique in as good a way as possible-not just saying bad stuff).


Hit Die: d4
For any non-primary-spellcaster, a d4 hit die is a bad idea. Make it a d6.


Class Skills
The Infiltrator’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Appraise (Int), Autohypnosis (Wis), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at First Level: (8+Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 8 + Int Modifier.
Sounds Ok. I would add Use Magic Device, though, because otherwise this character will die. He'll have about the offensive ability of a commoner otherwise.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Infiltrators are proficient with simple weapons, and light armor.
That's good.


Evasion (Ex): At 1st level, an Infiltrator can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If they make a successful Reflex saving against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, they instead takes one-quarter damage. Evasion can be used only if the Infiltrator is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless Infiltrator does not gain the benefit of evasion. At 10th level, an Infiltrator takes no damage from a successful reflex save that would normally deal half damage. At 20th level, the Infiltrator takes only half damage from a failed reflex save.
This is actually underpowered - if this person is in amongst a bunch of arcane spellcasters, you want this class to be able to beat the stuffing out of a regular rogue in order to keep up, quite honestly. Just make this exactly the same as Evasion is for a rogue.


Perception (Ex): Nothing is more important to an Infiltrator than being aware of their surroundings. At 1st level, an Infiltrator gains the ability to make Listen and Spot checks as a free action.
Limit it to 1 check of each per round - same reasons as Level 20 Commoner said.


Trapfinding (Ex):
Good, moving on...


Track (Ex): At 2nd level, an Infiltrator may use the survival skill to track an enemy as per the feat. At 19th level, this ability improves to allow the Infiltrator to track at his full speed, twice his full speed (-5), or while running (-20)
I'm not really sure how this fits into the character concept...but different people think differently, and I suppose this fits into the concept in your player's mind. Since it does, leave it in. This is good.


Trap Sense (Ex):
Very well, no problems here.


Uncanny Stealth (Ex): At 3rd level, an Infiltrator may move at full speed while hiding or moving silently at no penalty. At 9th level, this ability expands to allow the Infiltrator even more stealth, increasing the DC to hear other actions he takes (combat, opening locks and doors) by +5. Finally, at 15th level, the Infiltrator may run while hiding or moving silently at no penalty.
My biggest issue is here. Depending on what this player does, this can be broken as h--l. It's a good idea, but the ability to hide while running, even at 15th level, is incredibly good, if he can move silently at the same time. (I have experience with this - one of my players is a halfling rogue with a cloak of elvenkind; at 4th level he had a +19 bonus to hide) I'd have hide be one step behind the move silently, and add another point at level 20 for him to gain the ability to hide at full speed.


Duck Out (Ex): At 5th level, an Infiltrator gains the ability to Hide as a free action, so long as he is not currently being observed.
This works well, as long as he can't hide more than once in sequence (prevents him from rolling until he gets a 20).


Poison Use (Ex): At 5th level, Infiltrators are thoroughly practiced in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade. At 15th level, an Infiltrator increases the DC of their poisons by 2.
All in order.


Skill Mastery (Ex): At 7th level, an Infiltrator becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that he can use them reliably even under adverse conditions. When making a skill check with one of these skills, he may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.
You haven't said how many skills. Assuming this is like the rogue ability and it is 3, all's well and good.


Nimble Precision (Ex): At 8th level, an Infiltrator may move at full speed while balancing at no penalty. At 16th level, this ability increases to allow the Infiltrator to Climb and Swim at full speed with no penalty. Finally, at 20th level, movement by the Infiltrator no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
The 8th and 16th level abilities are fine. The 20th level one isn't, because it isn't clear what's meant. Do you mean he no longer provokes attacks of opportunity from balancing, climbing, or swimming? Then that's perfect. If you mean that he doesn't provoke AT ALL, then that's not fine.


Hide in Plain Sight (Ex):
This class would have been incomplete without it.


Blank Slate (Ex): At 12th level, an Infiltrator gains a bonus to Will saves equivalent to his intelligence modifier against attempts to determine his thoughts. Additionally, the DC to use Sense Motive to gain a Hunch against the Infiltrator is increased by 5.
Skill Prodigy (Ex): At 13th level, an Infiltrator gains a single +2 bonus to use each round on a skill check of his choice. This bonus may only be used on skills at their maximum rank.
Traceless (Ex): At 17th level, an Infiltrator gains a bonus against scrying equal to his Infiltrator class level.
Nothing particularly wrong with any of these.

Add UMD, clear up some confusion, and change a couple things. This is viable as a class, but keep in mind that it will be good only in high-roleplaying settings, and terrible in high-combat settings.

-Fiery Diamond

RollFourDropOne
2008-02-16, 10:54 AM
For any non-primary-spellcaster, a d4 hit die is a bad idea. Make it a d6.
Yeah, done.


Sounds Ok. I would add Use Magic Device, though, because otherwise this character
Already added.


Limit it to 1 check of each per round - same reasons as Level 20 Commoner said.
Already fixed.


You haven't said how many skills. Assuming this is like the rogue ability and it is 3, all's well and good.
Actually it says on the level progression 6+Int is the maximum.


The 8th and 16th level abilities are fine. The 20th level one isn't, because it isn't clear what's meant. Do you mean he no longer provokes attacks of opportunity from balancing, climbing, or swimming? Then that's perfect. If you mean that he doesn't provoke AT ALL, then that's not fine.
Its "movement", so climbing, balancing, swimming, jumping, walking, running, etc. Activating objects, attacking with ranged weaponry, etc etc etc etc all still provoke.

jagadaishio
2008-02-16, 11:55 AM
In order to make this class even remotely playable (though I do love the concept) you need to add some combat abilities. I suggest a half-sneak attack progression (every other odd level), the ability to make a strike which would cause a Silence effect (useful against spellcasters and characters you want to take out without them calling for help), and/or (as weird as this may sound) grappling.

Grappling is used with garrotes, something which this class would find very useful. Even without garrotes, making a silencing blow to the throat, pulling the enemy silently to the ground, and strangling them seems like a stealthy way to take out guards without leaving revealing bloodstains or causing loud noises.

Give it some ability to survive combat and it's playable. As it stands now, this is a character that hides behind a statue in the boss fight. This is a character that is an equal in combat to a commoner of its level.

But I really do love the concept.

RollFourDropOne
2008-02-16, 01:33 PM
Considering granting more poison related abilties rather than direct combat enhancements. Will post those up once i finish them.

Cormac
2008-02-17, 02:15 PM
I also like the idea of making them focused on poisoning. I think that a steady increase in the DC's of poisons they use would be awesome. Perhaps you could couple that with class abilities that let them craft poisons more quickly and less expensively (but you dont want to make the class too poison heavy if that is not the character's concept).