Can a level 20 wizard kill

[Setra]

Bahamut? Out of curiosity I did a search for Platinum Dragon on a D&D Wiki and found the stats for Bahamut.

Now this is probably silly but.. basically.

Can you come up with ways to feasibly, without resorting to things that are beyond normal cheese (ie. Infinite Gating)

Bahamut (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Bahamut%2C_Great-Great-Great_Wyrm_Platinum_Dragon)

[Penguinizer]

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold researches an epic spell to make it stop from existing. No idea if this even would work.

Humm, no idea beyond that actually.

[RTGoodman]

Well, it's immune to ability drain, but not specifically to ability damage, so there's gotta be some way to take advantage of that (especially with his mighty draconic Dex of 10).

Unless immune to ability drain covers all types of ability damage and penalties, in which case I don't know.

[Keld Denar]

lol....Bahamut, the platnum father of all metalic dragons slain by a 3rd level spell....lol....

[Zincorium]

Honestly, I don't regard whether a level 20 wizard can kill it as a meaningful question.

It's CR 107. You'd have to be level 100 before you can even calculate how much experience you'd gain from killing this particular dragon-god.

Really, at level 20 you'd have to resort to killing it with anti-osmium.

[Reinboom]

First steps:
Find a way to surpass the spell resistance (134)

The saves:
Fort +92, Ref +72, Will +100

Hitting it:
Touch 31 (this isn't so bad...)

The Immunities:
Death from massive damage, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, cold;
...
The speed (480 ft, 1440 ft fly speed)
...
Then the Epic Spellcasting and a cleric level of 46...

Get those scaly kind Wizards with a few domination effects and sarrukh out!

[sikyon]

Diplomacy.

[Ganurath]

1. Go to a different plane of existence than Bahamut.
2. Cast Sculpted Wall of Iron in an open, flat area.
3. Cast Reverse Gravity in said area.
4. Set up a Contingency of a Gate opening in your proximity to greater dispel magic the nearest Reverse Gravity spell.
5. Open a Gate over Bahamut on the ground beneath the Iron Pillar, use scrying as needed.
6. Weight Damage + Falling Damage = Deicide.

[RTGoodman]

One other problem is this:


Epic — contingent resurrection

Also, he has contingent resurrection 1/day as a spell-like ability. So, once he's dead, you'd better find a way to prevent that from happening.

[Talic]

Step 1: Hire the War Hulk Hulking hurler from the wizards boards that throws rocks for about 1 trillion damage.

Step 2: Hire his friend.

Step 3: Gate them both to bahamut.

Step 4: Bahamut ices one with a vengeful gaze.

Step 5: Throw the rock with the Hurler ability that allows a save for half. Bahamut doesn't have Evasion.

Step 6: Bahamut becomes a splatter on the wall. to the tune of 500,000,000,000 damage.

[Ganurath]

One other problem is this:



Also, he has contingent resurrection 1/day as a spell-like ability. So, once he's dead, you'd better find a way to prevent that from happening.Oh! In that case, cast Magic Aura on a Trap the Soul gem especially made for Bahamut. Any decent Knowledge (religion) check would provide sufficient data to set it to irresistable mode. All that you need is getting a gem big and expensive enough to be worth offering to a deity in person.

[Chronos]

lol....Bahamut, the platnum father of all metalic dragons slain by a 3rd level spell....lol....I don't think that the standard dragonkiller spell will work here, since I'm reasonably certain that Bahamut has the cold subtype. Plus, Shivering Cheese still allows spell resistance, and 134 is an awful lot to try to Assay away.

The Dex does still look tempting, but the other obvious way to do dex damage is with poison, and he's outright immune to that... Hm, maybe some sort of maneuver or class feature or whatnot (similar to a rogue's Crippling Strike) that deals dex damage on a hit?

Even at that, though, reducing him to 0 dex wouldn't be enough. As a 46th-level cleric (and probably a good many sorcerer levels, too), he probably has more still, silent spells than you have spells, total. So rendering him unable to move (even if you manage it somehow) will still leave him kicking your butt.

[Douglas]

A Dweomercheater, excuse me, Dweomerkeeper could use Supernatural Spell to ignore the SR four times per day. That, plus the low touch AC and lack of immunity to ability damage, would allow Shivering Touch to work. Drop his dexterity to 0 in one hit, then Coup de Grace at leisure.

Of course, this still leaves the problem of how to survive getting close enough to use Shivering Touch in the first place.

Edit: According to the stats in the link given, he does not have the cold subtype. As for Still Silent spells, he doesn't even have those feats at all.

[Ganurath]

Of course, this still leaves the problem of how to survive getting close enough to use Shivering Touch in the first place.Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the god of dragons with cold immunity!

[Douglas]

Good luck beating his +154 Sense Motive check.

[RTGoodman]

I don't think that the standard dragonkiller spell will work here, since I'm reasonably certain that Bahamut has the cold subtype. Plus, Shivering Cheese still allows spell resistance, and 134 is an awful lot to try to Assay away.

Well, it's easy to change the energy descriptor of a spell. I don't know if shivering touch actually does cold damage, but either way the Energy Substitution feat only requires that the spell have the descriptor. So just give it one of the other energy descriptors.

The spell resistance is a problem, but there are probably ways around it, I think. The description of SR says that "The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks." Does that mean a natural 20 on the CL check means an automatic success. If so, you could either hope for that or find a way to get a natural 20 automatically (Surge of Fortune, maybe? I can't remember if it can be used for CL checks).

[Ganurath]

Well, it's easy to change the energy descriptor of a spell. I don't know if shivering touch actually does cold damage, but either way the Energy Substitution feat only requires that the spell have the descriptor. So just give it one of the other energy descriptors.

The spell resistance is a problem, but there are probably ways around it, I think. The description of SR says that "The defender’s spell resistance is like an Armor Class against magical attacks." Does that mean a natural 20 on the CL check means an automatic success. If so, you could either hope for that or find a way to get a natural 20 automatically (Surge of Fortune, maybe? I can't remember if it can be used for CL checks).An easier way is to cast this (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#trap-the-soul), disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

[Zona]

An easier way is to cast this (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#trap-the-soul), disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

You Aes Sedai You. :smallbiggrin:

[RTGoodman]

An easier way is to cast this (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#trap-the-soul), disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

An even better solution - cast the spell, have the gem, and all of that, cast magic aura to disguise it, and then trick an innocent worshiper into giving it to Bahamut. The way trap the soul sound to me, the gem is set for a specific person/deity, so you can pass it around as much as you like and it won't do anything until it gets to the target.

If the worshiper doesn't know about the gem's insidious purpose, I doubt the god would be able to use Sense Motive to figure out the gem's purpose. Of course, he might just cast a targetted dispel on it anyway before picking it up, so it might not work.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Using an incantatrix, sudden quicken, twin spell and a two rods of greater maximise it is possible, with Timestop and a twinned celerity twinned contingency (twin contingency whose each portion contains a twinned celerity), to get a grand total of 35 rounds of Timestop in a single round.

Now you have 35 rounds to employ any trick/massive spell combo that can defeat him.

[kemmotar]

Actually, just a note on all the 2 gate "tricks" above..bahamut is a god, all gods have the ability to reject teleportation, gates and divination spells it they want...so you have a problem right there...also if you mention his name he can see you and all the other nifty abilities gods have...

So my guess is go with the timestop thingy from far far away...use some kind of insane flight speed to get near him and then hope you have enough rounds to do the amazing spell combo you have planned...then hope you can get another 35 round timestop before his contingent res(both of them) makes him able to act again and procceed to kick your ass...

Bahamut casting a spell=death
Bahamut hitting you=death
Bahamut looking at you=probably death too...
Bahamut has an action=death

So the only way to actually beat him is to find a way to do something to him before he can hit you, and even if you do kill him to kill him again right after his 2 resurrections...so short of pupun you'll need equal cheese to get him...albeit more creative than usual...since you need to kill him 3 times before he can take any action against you...

And, in the case of you dealing enough dex damage, after by passing his SR, his touch AC(not very difficult anyway) and him not making his save...you still have to worry about a maximized, quickened, still, silent, heightened disintigrate with a save high in the hundreds...and that is the good scenario...

Maybe a party of 5 level 20 wizards working cheese together?

[Ganurath]

...An Elan Mystic Theurge using Persistant DMM cheese on Time Stop. Rest up your spells during the Time Stop, spend a power point to make food nonissue, do that trick with double Surge of Fortune for an instant decapitation with a +1 Unholy Vorpal Longsword, then let the cycle repeat after the next Time Stop.

[Weiser_Cain]

Being a god, wouldn't he know about the attack before you made it or something?
How would your magic even touch him at lvl 20?

[Collin152]

Can a level 20 wizard kill

Yes, and how!

[bugsysservant]

...An Elan Mystic Theurge using Persistant DMM cheese on Time Stop. Rest up your spells during the Time Stop, spend a power point to make food nonissue, do that trick with double Surge of Fortune for an instant decapitation with a +1 Unholy Vorpal Longsword, then let the cycle repeat after the next Time Stop.

The Persistent DMM time stop doesn't work. WoTC did a stealth errata with the FAQ making Time Stop essentially treated like a spell with instantaneous duration.

Edit: If anyone can think of a way of getting him to fail a fortitude save, using the time stop trick mentioned above and casting Flesh to Stone then Transmute Rock to Mud bypasses his contingency resurrections, IIRC. But again, +92 Fort save makes this ineffective without some way of lowering it.

[Rutee]

An easier way is to cast this (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsTtoZ.html#trap-the-soul), disguise it with Magic Aura, and explain to Bahamut that you wish for him to hold it so that it can be an icon of worship, a gemstone blessed by the presence of Bahamut. No need for a Bluff check if it isn't technically a lie, right?

Wrong. It's nto a lie, but it's still a con, and still calls for a Bluff Check.

[Collin152]

Wrong. It's nto a lie, but it's still a con, and still calls for a Bluff Check.

So bluff a worshipor into doing it. They don't know it's a con.
Course, maybe Epic Sense motive lets him do more.

[Rutee]

You have to bluff a worshipper who can reasonably access Bahamut. Which means a Cleric, in all probability..

[Citizen Jenkins]

Well, the way I see it, there are really four big obstacles to overcome before you can kill the Platinum Dragon.

1. Getting close enough for any magical attack.

2. Getting past SR.

3. Getting past it's insane saves.

4. Dealing with the contingent resurrection.

My entry is a,
Necropolitan Wizard 4/Cleric 1/Dweomekeeper 4/Tainted Scholar 1/Incantatrix 10

1. I use Belial_the_Leveler's time stop trick to get close enough. Mix in Celerity/Greater Celerity and getting a spell off won't be a problem.

2. 4 levels of Dweomekeeper ala what douglas suggested allows me to use Supernatural spell once to ignore it's SR.

3. Since I'm undead, my Tainted Scholar can rack up a silly Corruption score without penalty, so my save DCs can be in the 200-300 range easily.

4. This is where we get creative. I'm partial to the Magic Jar jar followed by using a Silent Flare using the soul as a spell component trick from BOVD but I'm sure there are other ways. Most of you will probably want to snag bugsysservant's Flesh to Stone then Transmute Rock to Mud trick.

[bugsysservant]

Course, maybe Epic Sense motive lets him do more.

I don't think so. The most Epic Sense motive will get you according to the SRD is the ability to detect alignment and thoughts. Maybe he could detect thoughts, and tell from the way that the worshiper was thinking of you that you were up to something, but considering its only surface thoughts, that would be a stretch.

[Collin152]

I don't think so. The most Epic Sense motive will get you according to the SRD is the ability to detect alignment and thoughts. Maybe he could detect thoughts, and tell from the way that the worshiper was thinking of you that you were up to something, but considering its only surface thoughts, that would be a stretch.

SO the guy offering the gift is standing in front of his God itself, and his surface thoughts are "Man, the guy who gave me this diddn't look very Good to me."

[Baxbart]

What a silly exercise.... why the hell did someone bother to try statting a god, really...?

As far as I'm concerned, no mortal being can get even close to harming a deity with Rank 17 Divinity - Not even a little bit. Anyone playing in one of my games who even considered going after a god would spontaneously combust and die on the spot, in a painful and spectacular fashion.

Only gods should be able to wage war on other gods.

[Collin152]

What a silly exercise.... why the hell did someone bother to try statting a god, really...?

As far as I'm concerned, no mortal being can get even close to harming a deity with Rank 17 Divinity - Not even a little bit. Anyone playing in one of my games who even considered going after a god would spontaneously combust and die on the spot, in a painful and spectacular fashion.

Only gods should be able to wage war on other gods.

But that totally defys the fantasy Genre, and makes Vecna impossible.

[Dan_Hemmens]

What a silly exercise.... why the hell did someone bother to try statting a god, really...?


Because D&D has very explicit rules for Gods?

Although actually statting gods is totally possible. "God" doesn't mean "indestructible" or even "competent". It always annoys me that people assume that Gods will be able to beat everybody at everything.

"Yeah, I've got this player whose character challenged the Goddess of Wisdom to a spinning contest. I was like: 'Dude, she's got a Wisdom score of 150 and a +90 to her Craft: Spinning check'. Players are such morons."

[Hectonkhyres]

Screw Bahamut. I want to see how you would kill the great dragon god Io. Bahamut's daddums.

FYI; I still see Tiamet as an angsty (billion year old) teenager with moodswings.

[sickler]

"Yeah, I've got this player whose character challenged the Goddess of Wisdom to a spinning contest. I was like: 'Dude, she's got a Wisdom score of 150 and a +90 to her Craft: Spinning check'. Players are such morons."
This gave me the best laugh of the day, only because I can imagine my DM talking to his friends about it.

[Setra]

Only gods should be able to wage war on other gods.Where does Raistlin fit in here?

[RTGoodman]

Because D&D has very explicit rules for Gods?

Exactly - I mean, there are several published books from officials sources with stats for gods. Look at Deities & Demigods - it has stats for all the D&D gods, plus whole other pantheons (including real-world ones).


Although actually statting gods is totally possible. "God" doesn't mean "indestructible" or even "competent". It always annoys me that people assume that Gods will be able to beat everybody at everything.

Yep - in D&D, "god" doesn't mean omnipotent or anything like people associate with the term in the real world. And really, fighting gods has always been a part of D&D as far as I know. I didn't play older editions, but were there whole official modules about deicide? ("Die Vecna Die" or something like that comes to mind.)

[Icewalker]

How bout trying to take on Ouroboros instead! He's a CR 272 with a divine rank of 68!

Of course, that would be problem, as:
The Ouroboros is a Demiurge, a part of the universe itself. The Phoenix's legends say that the Ouroboros represents the Milky Way, a band that stretches in a circle around the entire world. But in truth, it isn't just the physical world he surrounds, it's the temporal world as well. Ouroboros exists in at least 5 dimensions, if not more. Ouroboros is considered to BE time itself. Killing him is impossible without destroying all of time itself (which is also impossible). Imprisoning him would freeze all time in the universe he resides in.


I like the tricking someone else to bringing him the trap the soul gem, that seems plausible.

[Inhuman Bot]

One way to kill bahumat: "Oh mighty god, DM. Lord of all lord gods. He who is unstoppable. Kill that B dragon guy. please?

[puppyavenger]

Screw Bahamut. I want to see how you would kill the great dragon god Io. Bahamut's daddums.

FYI; I still see Tiamet as an angsty (billion year old) teenager with moodswings.

Ah Io, creator of the multiverse in havlf of Planescapes crackpot theories....
also Pull a Venca, and become a Diety, I mean it'l be pretty easy to get people worshipping you...

[Mordokai]

No, he couldn't. Bahamut can't be defeated!

Of course, I am a little biased on the matter :smalltongue:

[Illiterate Scribe]

It's not a wizard 20, but the good ol' archivist 21/Cosmic Descryer 7 can pull an infinitely high CL blasphemy or word of chaos to kill anything.

[Chronos]

...An Elan Mystic Theurge using Persistant DMM cheese on Time Stop. Rest up your spells during the Time Stop, spend a power point to make food nonissue, do that trick with double Surge of Fortune for an instant decapitation with a +1 Unholy Vorpal Longsword, then let the cycle repeat after the next Time Stop.Here is where I remind everyone that you can't directly affect anyone while in a Time Stop.


It's not a wizard 20, but the good ol' archivist 21/Cosmic Descryer 7 can pull an infinitely high CL blasphemy or word of chaos to kill anything.How does that one work? I don't think I've seen that trick before.

[martyboy74]

The 7th level ability of the Cosmic Descryer PrC allows to to get a boost to his saving equal to the damage taken/5 with no limit. The archivist is to get Delay Death, and a Diehard equivalent is presumably in there somewhere. Holy Word and its clones have no CL limit.

It's a 40' radius insta-death zone.

[Hawriel]

[QUOTE=Baxbart;3946809]What a silly exercise.... why the hell did someone bother to try statting a god, really...?

QUOTE]


I would like to point out all of Norse and Greek Myth and how gods have been beated by mortals and one time or another. Sure most of the time it was gods messing with each other but mortals have had their wins over the gods.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

In my setting, there was one point where the gods were scared witless of one man. The legend was that this man stole magic from the gods. Really, magic existed before him, he was just the first powergamer.

[puppyavenger]

The 7th level ability of the Cosmic Descryer PrC allows to to get a boost to his saving equal to the damage taken/5 with no limit. The archivist is to get Delay Death, and a Diehard equivalent is presumably in there somewhere. Holy Word and its clones have no CL limit.

It's a 40' radius insta-death zone.

coughimunetodeatheffectscough

[Ganurath]

No, he couldn't. Bahamut can't be defeated!

Of course, I am a little biased on the matter :smalltongue:Trap the Soul veiled by Magic Aura.

[Collin152]

Trap the Soul veiled by Magic Aura.

Bahamut, being a deity, knows you were going ot try weeks before you even started looking for the diamond.

[Ganurath]

Bahamut, being a deity, knows you were going ot try weeks before you even started looking for the diamond.And that's why you're a lich. Not even deities have photographic memories good enough to keep track of the material components of every lich in existence... Especially if that lich makes TtS specials for every deity.

[Worira]

coughimunetodeatheffectscough

Good thing Holy Word isn't a death effect.

[Voyager_I]

Also, Batman has Mindblank (or whatever).

Always





Yes, even then.

[Wizardzo]

It's simple really.

Step one: Get your self a high grade at least 100ft. Portable Hole®.

Step Two: Throw said Hole over the top of the Dragon Via a fly spell, assuming said Dragon is not already hostile.

Watch as Your Dragon problem is erased from the dimensions of height and Width via the good old fashion dimensional hole. In other words, The Dragon cannot exist in a place where matter cannot exist.

[AslanCross]

Err, if a portable hole worked that way, you'd never be able to get stuff out of it. And isn't it typically used for storage?

[Tokiko Mima]

Ok, I'll take a shot at this. Granted, if Bahamut is omniscent then there would literally be no way to kill him, but I'm going by the stat block provided, and ignoring all the fluff on gods being unkillable I'll take a stab at it. Or a dance, as I'll be dancing the Dragon to death.

Oh yes, and before someone remarks about how cheesy this is, I know. A level 20 character does not take on a 107-HD epic spell casting dragon god without 8973458734573735+ cans of cheez wiz.

Ingredients:


You, a Warlock level 20. A damage focused Hellfire Glaivelock could make this happen twice as fast, but for arguments sake, a normal Warlock, with Vitriolic Blast essense and Dark Foresight.
Enough magic items/Feats to boost the Warlocks ranged or melee attack bonus to +20 or more.
Unlimited use item of Embrace the Dark Chaos
Unlimited use item of Shun the Dark Chaos
2 single use items of Celerity
A scroll of Mage's Disjunction.
A small village of cooperative Pixies, at least 800 of them.
A method of teleporting 3 creatures to directly above where ever Bahamut is, out of range of his ability to prevent teleportation.
A flying mount with Perfect manueverability, probably a Large or Medium Air Elemental.
Enough candles of invocation to teleport 79 or more creatures directly to Bahamut, or some other method to get them in range once Bahamut is unable to take any action.


How this works:

Once you have your Pixie village, you'll find that one in ten Pixies can cast Irresistable Dance as a racial Spell-like ability. This is awesome, but it would still trigger Bahamut's massive SR. This is why you take use your preprepared unlimited use items to Dark Chaos shuffle them and transform a useless Feat (I recommend Dodge) into a very useful Feat called Supernatural Transformation. Making their ability Supernatual allows the Pixies to bypass SR with their Irresistable Dance. Now even Mighty Bahamut will dance in the right conditions.

You will want to prepare at least one of the Pixies to help you on the initial round. This should be the one with the least problems using the 4th level spell Celerity to get a round in before Bahamut, cheesing your way around his Shining Scales by gaining your action before Bahamut can use his abilities. As other posters have pointed out, if Bahamut gets even a single action in you've lost and are probably dead.

Bahamut has a spell of note that would prevent all this from happening, Mind Blank, but you'll note he is missing an important spell from his list: Foresight meaning he can be surprised.

You and the Pixie you selected earlier with board your flying mount and teleport to directly above Bahamut, high enough that you aren't stopped from making the trip. The flying mount will ready an action to begin flying as soon as it comes within touch range of Bahamut. Hopefully, this will allow you a surprise round. If not it will be a race to see who casts Celerity first. I recommend readying an action to cast Celerity the moment you close to 75ft or less. You need to use Disjunction on Bahamut before the faerie casts Celerity and uses her Irresistable Dance. This will wipe out Bahamut's trump card versus this type of attack, Mind Blank, and keep your pixie's celeity item out of range when all Bahamut's magical effects and magic items within the radius of the spell are disjoined. Incidently, Contingent spells are taken down at this point too.

Once Bahamut's Mind Blank is down, the Pixie uses her Irresistable Dance and Bahamut begins dancing. This prevents him from taking any useful action, and allows your other Pixie pals to jump in and keep the Irresistable Dance flowing. When you recover from your daze, you get to begin Blasting. Bahamut's touch AC is not spectacular, vitriolic Blast bypasses his SR, and he doesn't list any appreciable acid resistance. The warlock continues pounding on him, round after round, while the Pixies keep him dancing and virtually helpless. It will take close to 30 minutes, but eventually Bahamut will go down.

Summary:

Drop in, cheese the rules on falling, initiative and readied actions to go first. Zap Bahamut with a no Save/no SR spell, and continue to cycle them. Kill him at leisure by exploiting a weakness in his defense.


P.S. I know no DM would ever allow this. It's an intellectual conjecture based on RAW, not RAI. Plus, I like the idea of Bahamut dancing to doom. What type of dance do you think a dragon god would do?

[Aquillion]

10 dex, not immune to ability damage, only problem is the SR. Find a way to overcome the SR or raise your CL, then just Maximized Shivering Touch it (metamagicked to change the [cold] descriptor to something else) and kill it. Repeat again when it resurrects.

Sort of sad. It has all of those immunities and absurd scores, and it still dies the exact same way every other dragon dies.

...and why does it only have 10 dex? It's almost like the author wanted it to be killed this way.

[Gralamin]

And that's why you're a lich. Not even deities have photographic memories good enough to keep track of the material components of every lich in existence... Especially if that lich makes TtS specials for every deity.

You may manage to trick Bahamut, but no one can trick Vecna -He has an ability that overrides all forms of protection, and that is "when a secret affects over 500 people, Vecna automatically learns it." (Paraphrased). Then remember he usually has over 500 worshipers. Then remember the theory known as the butterfly effect.

[Tokiko Mima]

10 dex, not immune to ability damage, only problem is the SR. Find a way to overcome the SR or raise your CL, then just Maximized Shivering Touch it (metamagicked to change the [cold] descriptor to something else) and kill it. Repeat again when it resurrects.

Sort of sad. It has all of those immunities and absurd scores, and it still dies the exact same way every other dragon dies.

...and why does it only have 10 dex? It's almost like the author wanted it to be killed this way.

Well, there was speculation earlier that Bahamut's immunity to cold damage would make him immune to Shivertouch, just like Silver and White dragons are immune to Shivertouch because of their cold subtype. I mean, all cold subtype does is provide immunity to cold and vulnerability to fire. Maybe not giving him cold subtype was just a way to avoid making him vulnerable to fire?

[AslanCross]

10 dex, not immune to ability damage, only problem is the SR. Find a way to overcome the SR or raise your CL, then just Maximized Shivering Touch it (metamagicked to change the [cold] descriptor to something else) and kill it. Repeat again when it resurrects.

Sort of sad. It has all of those immunities and absurd scores, and it still dies the exact same way every other dragon dies.

...and why does it only have 10 dex? It's almost like the author wanted it to be killed this way.

One also has to CDG him for over 112 damage to be absolutely sure that Bahamut fails his saving throw. Sure, that's easily accomplished by a specialized fighter with a scythe and Power Attack, but will a Wizard really be able to do that on his own? He'd still need help or will have to resort to using a weapon he most likely won't have proficiencies in.

(Then again, shapechange to Balor for the Vorpal sword :P)

[Rutee]

10 dex, not immune to ability damage, only problem is the SR. Find a way to overcome the SR or raise your CL, then just Maximized Shivering Touch it (metamagicked to change the [cold] descriptor to something else) and kill it. Repeat again when it resurrects.

Sort of sad. It has all of those immunities and absurd scores, and it still dies the exact same way every other dragon dies.

...and why does it only have 10 dex? It's almost like the author wanted it to be killed this way.

Immunity to Ability Drain doesn't explicitly ('cause it sure does /implicitly/) grant immunity to damage?

[Illiterate Scribe]

How does that one work? I don't think I've seen that trick before.


The 7th level ability of the Cosmic Descryer PrC allows to to get a boost to his saving equal to the damage taken/5 with no limit. The archivist is to get Delay Death, and a Diehard equivalent is presumably in there somewhere. Holy Word and its clones have no CL limit.

It's a 40' radius insta-death zone.


coughimunetodeatheffectscough

Exactly, y'see, Holy Word isn't a death effect.

The whole delay death thing can work, but a nice refinement is to go to the positive energy plane, stock up on a large number of temporary hit points (using Diamond Mind maneuvers to get a constant Fort saving throw and avoid natural ones - there's a feat that means you don't fail on natural ones, as well, which obviates the need for ths), and then swing in and start chucking the word spells. The whole point of that last trick is somewhat moot, since you can always use an epic heal spell to heal yourself out of the infinite damage that you've just incurred.

It gets even more fun if you can acquire time manipulation effects - either by arcane genesis spells, or by (:shudder:) an at-will timestop item. Go onto your major-positive-dominant, flowing time personal plane, stock up on an arbitrarily large (infinitely large, depending on how a DM's willing to interpret it) number of positive hit points, then BAM!, you appear next to an enemy, and release one with infinite CL.

Fun fact: the use of this trick by me and a friend is the reason that these spells have been junked over on the Dicefreaks boards. Even their hyper-powered deities with dozens of divine ranks (Piscaethes and Asmodeus spring to mind) get ganked by this usage. Furthermore, it allows you to use spells against the various creatures which have 'infinite spell resistance'.

[Rutee]

I don't think temporary hit points can qualify as "Lost hit points". Can you back that up with RAW?

[Captain van der Decken]

So what happens when he uses his true resurrection? Does he appear in the same spot? Is it instantaneous? Because now you've pulled the trick off he can just do the same to you, with his CL 107 Holy Word/Dictum.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't think temporary hit points can qualify as "Lost hit points". Can you back that up with RAW?

Sure - you gain hitpoints -


In addition, those at full hit points gain 5 additional temporary hit points per round.

... then you take damage -


The cosmic descryer can draw off excess energy from the multiverse itself to increase his or her effective caster level or enhance any attack roll, saving throw, skill check, or ability check. Drawing off excess energy from the multiverse is dangerous, and it deals the cosmic descryer 5 points of damage for each +1 bonus applied to a single roll or +1 caster level on a single spell.

I don't see where the problem is.


So what happens when he uses his true resurrection? Does he appear in the same spot? Is it instantaneous? Because now you've pulled the trick off he can just do the same to you, with his CL 107 Holy Word/Dictum.

Meh, might have to quicken a Mordekainen's disjunction at him, first (although if he was packing any artifacts, could be a problem, what with our very high CL). I think that truenaming has some anti-resurrection tricks - is it the Bereft that can unname dead people?

[Weiser_Cain]

Wouldn't he reform on his home plane? Wouldn't you then be attacked by ever non-evil dragon Half-Dragon and Dragon Worshiper from this and the next two planes over before he tore your soul apart?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Wouldn't he reform on his home plane? Wouldn't you then be attacked by ever non-evil dragon Half-Dragon and Dragon Worshiper from this and the next two planes over before he tore your soul apart?

A pitiful challenge for a batman archivist.

[Weiser_Cain]

A pitiful challenge for a batman archivist.

I don't get that reference?

[AslanCross]

I don't get that reference?

Batman is a general term for a prepared spellcaster who has the right spells for anything. It's usually applied to Wizards, but since Archivists prepare spells like Wizards do, I guess it can apply to them as well.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Batman is a general term for a prepared spellcaster who has the right spells for anything. It's usually applied to Wizards, but since Archivists prepare spells like Wizards do, I guess it can apply to them as well.

Exactly - there are a couple of ways of getting prepared arcane spells into divine slots or vice versa. One usually goes archivist because there are some awesome reduced level domain spells.

[Noble Savant]

If you really want to irk your DM, take Maximum ranks in Knowledge: Physics. Then use Fabricate to create Anti-Matter, with a contingency spell that teleports you away in its presence.

Logically Bahamut should take around a trillion damage.

[kemmotar]

Well...just a note on the irresistible dance trick as well as the shivering touch trick that was mentioned again....
a)even if you get him to dance or be unable to move he can still cast silent still spells thus defeating the purpose...ok it's a dancing/still massive silver dragon god king that still flings spells at you like nothing happened...and Bahamut's magic missile is probably deadly to any level 20 character
b) ok you managed to kill him once...how long do you think the trick will work so you can kill him again...and then again...

One possible way of getting around bahamut knowing your preparations is taking the vecna blooded template after preping the plan, then all the memories of your existence are erased from the world and only vecna knows of you(ie even gods forget about you)...then again there's still the matter of killing Bahamut 3 times...and again, why assume that bahamut is unguarded?what are you doing?challenging him to single combat? What has to be done is kill him ine one round before he can act and then in the next round teleport before anyone else has time to realise what the hell just happened...Ofc timestop is fine as long as it gets you near him...the problem is you can't harm him while in timestop...

Oh maybe create an epic spell that can:
a) make it possible to cast spells while in timestop that will affect the target or
b) make an epic timestop variant that allows you to affect the target of the spell while in timestop

Then buff the timestop so it lasts as many rounds as possible...hopefully you have 3-4 times so you can kill him and then actually escape...

[Reinboom]

I have just realized another thing missing from this discussion.
A level 20 wizard... what?

You could be a level 20 wizard/level 1 archmage.
Of course, if you want to say it's "wizard caster level 20"
level 20 wizard/level 1 sorcerer. You only need to get your skills to 24 and level to 21.
Or maybe a...
Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab Wizard 20.
:smallconfused:

Aside, you could use a lot of wall of iron castings, and some electricity to produce an awfully large rail gun.
Perhaps this could do something?

[Ganurath]

I have just realized another thing missing from this discussion.
A level 20 wizard... what?

You could be a level 20 wizard/level 1 archmage.
Of course, if you want to say it's "wizard caster level 20"
level 20 wizard/level 1 sorcerer. You only need to get your skills to 24 and level to 21.
Or maybe a...
Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab Wizard 20.
:smallconfused:

Aside, you could use a lot of wall of iron castings, and some electricity to produce an awfully large rail gun.
Perhaps this could do something?You forgot that the Crab needs to be Awakened. And a Half-Fiend.

[lord_khaine]

If you really want to irk your DM, take Maximum ranks in Knowledge: Physics. Then use Fabricate to create Anti-Matter, with a contingency spell that teleports you away in its presence.


that wont work, you would require some anti-matter to start with before you could create anti-matter with fabricate.

even if you took escrew material component it wouldnt work, as i doubt you could convince anyone in your group to place the value of anti-matter below the 1gp limit.

[Vexxation]

Well...just a note on the irresistible dance trick as well as the shivering touch trick that was mentioned again....
a)even if you get him to dance or be unable to move he can still cast silent still spells thus defeating the purpose...ok it's a dancing/still massive silver dragon god king that still flings spells at you like nothing happened...and Bahamut's magic missile is probably deadly to any level 20 character

Can he, though? I see he has Automatic Metamagic Capacity but can he use it to automatically metamagic a spell with a metamagic he doesn't have? If he can't, then both Still and Silent are out of the question.

Further, can he stack two different metamagics in this way?
The rules that I dug up mention neither of these, and a DM might rule that you couldn't do it if it doesn't say you can. The idea that "you can't apply a metamagic you don't have" would make perfect sense as a rule, to me.

[sikyon]

You may manage to trick Bahamut, but no one can trick Vecna -He has an ability that overrides all forms of protection, and that is "when a secret affects over 500 people, Vecna automatically learns it." (Paraphrased). Then remember he usually has over 500 worshipers. Then remember the theory known as the butterfly effect.

I don't think the butterfly effect is explicitly included. If you factor it in, then he knows every single secret in the universe.

[puppyavenger]

Good thing Holy Word isn't a death effect.
'isn't something that kills someone regardless of how many hit points they have the definition of a death effect? and how would a wizards be ableto cast holy word anyway?

[Illiterate Scribe]

'isn't something that kills someone regardless of how many hit points they have the definition of a death effect?

Due to WotC's wondrous editing, no, it isn't. Things are specifically flagged up as such in the SRD.


and how would a wizards be ableto cast holy word anyway?

By a number of means; either by the arcane disciple feat, or by being an Archivist, like I specifically stated above.

[Rutee]

I don't see where the problem is.
I thought it worked off HP lost, not by dealing HP Damage. My mistake.

[TRM]

I don't know... It seems that most of these strategies assume that Bahamut is sitting around and not employing any of his epic spells, high-level spells, and spell-like abilities.
For the wizard's plan to really be foolproof it has to be able to function when Bahamut has buffs and divinations and protections operating; the dragon god, while his dex is only 10, has an intelligence of 37 and I imagine that he would fight with a strategy that fits his massive Int.

[Chronos]

The pixie trick still has a glaring flaw: Even Bahamut's touch AC is pretty darned high (31, according to that link), thanks to his divine rank and deflection bonus. And pixies have an attack bonus of only +5. So the pixies are only going to be able to get off an Irresistible Dance on him on a natural 20. Even if you can get them True Strike, and even if Bahamut doesn't have any long-term AC buffs up, they still have a 25% chance of missing.

You also have the question of how to get a bunch of Always Neutral Good creatures to help you kill a good deity. Diplocheese to make them Helpful would lead to them locking you up away from Bahamut for your own good, since that's the best help you can give to someone so clearly insane, and good luck with Dominate, since that's an order which is clearly both against their natures and suicidal.

Oh, and just to nitpick, but Bahamut is of course immune to Holy Word. You probably want to use Blasphemy, instead.

[Captain van der Decken]

Here's a question - is this version of Bahamut harder to kill than WotC's version?

WotC Bahamut has immunity to ability damage, for a start.

[Mewtarthio]

You also have the question of how to get a bunch of Always Neutral Good creatures to help you kill a good deity. Diplocheese to make them Helpful would lead to them locking you up away from Bahamut for your own good, since that's the best help you can give to someone so clearly insane, and good luck with Dominate, since that's an order which is clearly both against their natures and suicidal.

You're trying to kill the Lawful Good Dragon God of Lawful Good Dragons. I'm pretty sure that you won't be too squeamish to resort to programmed amnesia and/or mind rape to brainwash them all.

The trick, of course, is to somehow brainwash 800 pixies.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I don't know... It seems that most of these strategies assume that Bahamut is sitting around and not employing any of his epic spells, high-level spells, and spell-like abilities.
For the wizard's plan to really be foolproof it has to be able to function when Bahamut has buffs and divinations and protections operating; the dragon god, while his dex is only 10, has an intelligence of 37 and I imagine that he would fight with a strategy that fits his massive Int.

Lower than many an epic wizard. Really, given that the Charop boards have come damn close to finding a way to kill Pun-Pun herself, and the infinite number of clones throughout time, using temporal tricks, it shouldn't be too hard to circumvent the defences of a mere DR 17 deity.


Oh, and just to nitpick, but Bahamut is of course immune to Holy Word. You probably want to use Blasphemy, instead.

Yes, I know, but for some reason everyone treats Holy Word as the archetypal one (also, it's most commonly wheeled out against the biggest enemies). I would actually go for Word of Chaos, to be honest - it would be eminently possible to convince some CG types to attack an LG god, if you framed it in the right terms.

[RTGoodman]

I think that truenaming has some anti-resurrection tricks - is it the Bereft that can unname dead people?

The Bereft can, but there's also just the Unname spell (Sor/Wiz 9) that does the same, but is slightly harder to pull off (two saves, I think).

One thing I was thinking about - how long does this contingent resurrection take? A regular ol' resurrection takes 10 minutes to cast, so unless the contingent resurrection thing is different that gives you 10 minutes between his death and when he comes back. Surely you can do something in those 10 minutes of "respawn time" (especially as an epic/nigh-epic wizard, archivist, or whatnot) to stop him.


Also, another thing - people mention how hard it would be to do some of these things because of his godhood. Well, there's always the option of getting your own divine help, and I'm sure Tiamat might be willing to help you rid her of her brother/arch-nemesis.

[Emperor Tippy]

I can do it with a level 17 straight wizard.

Step 1: Cast Shapechange
Step 2: Shapechange into a Zodar
Step 3: Use the Zodar's SU wish to wish for a scroll of Gate at CL 40.
Step 4: Shapechange into a Lilitu
Step 5: I would use my Item Use extraordinary ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use my CL 40 Scroll of Gate.
Step 6: I would gate in a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon
Step 7: I order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to not resist any spells I cast at him in any way and to lower any and all defenses he may have up.
Step 8: I would cast Mind Rape on the dragon adn reprogram him to be forever loyal to me.
Step 9: I would order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to return to me as quickly as it possible can as soon as the gate spell ends.

I would then repeat until I had a goof hundred or so Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons under my control. Each one has a CL of 38 so I can have them use Epic Magic.

I use Epic Magic cheese to kill Bahamut.

[Chronos]

Yes, I know, but for some reason everyone treats Holy Word as the archetypal one (also, it's most commonly wheeled out against the biggest enemies). I would actually go for Word of Chaos, to be honest - it would be eminently possible to convince some CG types to attack an LG god, if you framed it in the right terms.For reasons I can't quite fathom, there's a subtle asymmetry in the Word spells, which means that there's actually a complete defense against Word of Chaos and Holy Word, which is not subject even to Disjunction, and which oddly does not apply to Dictum or Blasphemy. Holy Word and Word of Chaos only kill targets who can hear the word, a restriction which does not apply to the other two. So if Bahamut knows what you're planning, and knows that you intend to use a Word of Chaos on him, he can just cast Deafness on himself, and then cure it after you're splattered in a submicroscopic mist across the walls of his cavern.

Actually, come to think of it, dragons are usually immune to the element of their breath weapon(s), and Bahamut has a sonic breath weapon. So he really ought to be immune to everything sonic, in the first place.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I can do it with a level 17 straight wizard.

Step 1: Cast Shapechange
Step 2: Shapechange into a Zodar
Step 3: Use the Zodar's SU wish to wish for a scroll of Gate at CL 40.
Step 4: Shapechange into a Lilitu
Step 5: I would use my Item Use extraordinary ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use my CL 40 Scroll of Gate.
Step 6: I would gate in a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon
Step 7: I order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to not resist any spells I cast at him in any way and to lower any and all defenses he may have up.
Step 8: I would cast Mind Rape on the dragon adn reprogram him to be forever loyal to me.
Step 9: I would order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to return to me as quickly as it possible can as soon as the gate spell ends.

I would then repeat until I had a goof hundred or so Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons under my control. Each one has a CL of 38 so I can have them use Epic Magic.

I use Epic Magic cheese to kill Bahamut.

Yeah, but chaingating's your answer to everything :smallsigh: :smallwink:.


For reasons I can't quite fathom, there's a subtle asymmetry in the Word spells, which means that there's actually a complete defense against Word of Chaos and Holy Word, which is not subject even to Disjunction, and which oddly does not apply to Dictum or Blasphemy. Holy Word and Word of Chaos only kill targets who can hear the word, a restriction which does not apply to the other two. So if Bahamut knows what you're planning, and knows that you intend to use a Word of Chaos on him, he can just cast Deafness on himself, and then cure it after you're splattered in a submicroscopic mist across the walls of his cavern.

Good point - I'd quite forgotten about that. It doesn't really matter, though - archivists can cast aligned spells with no problem.


Actually, come to think of it, dragons are usually immune to the element of their breath weapon(s), and Bahamut has a sonic breath weapon. So he really ought to be immune to everything sonic, in the first place.

Subtype immunity only applies to damage - or it would, by extension from the 'Cold Immunity' and 'Fire Immunity'.

[Aquillion]

I have just realized another thing missing from this discussion.
A level 20 wizard... what?

You could be a level 20 wizard/level 1 archmage.
Of course, if you want to say it's "wizard caster level 20"
level 20 wizard/level 1 sorcerer. You only need to get your skills to 24 and level to 21.
Or maybe a...
Divine Pseudonatural Paragon Advanced Monstrous Crab Wizard 20.
:smallconfused:

Aside, you could use a lot of wall of iron castings, and some electricity to produce an awfully large rail gun.
Perhaps this could do something?Wizard 20, divine rank 20? Just use your Alter Reality salient divine ability to erase him from existance.

[Collin152]

I can do it with a level 17 straight wizard.

Step 1: Cast Shapechange
Step 2: Shapechange into a Zodar
Step 3: Use the Zodar's SU wish to wish for a scroll of Gate at CL 40.
Step 4: Shapechange into a Lilitu
Step 5: I would use my Item Use extraordinary ability to auto succeed on the UMD check to use my CL 40 Scroll of Gate.
Step 6: I would gate in a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon
Step 7: I order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to not resist any spells I cast at him in any way and to lower any and all defenses he may have up.
Step 8: I would cast Mind Rape on the dragon adn reprogram him to be forever loyal to me.
Step 9: I would order the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon to return to me as quickly as it possible can as soon as the gate spell ends.

I would then repeat until I had a goof hundred or so Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons under my control. Each one has a CL of 38 so I can have them use Epic Magic.

I use Epic Magic cheese to kill Bahamut.

Isn't that basically your answer to everything?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It's an answer that allows a ECL 17 to kill a CR 107. There's a reason it's the best brand of cheese.

[Emperor Tippy]

Isn't that basically your answer to everything?

It's my answer to any stupid cheese challenge that is lacking in any limit's beyond "No titan gate chains" and to any other power game challenge with similar limits.

It's quick, its easy, its RAW legal, and it beats most everything (there is no problem that can't be solved by 1 creature with epic spellcasting, much less 100 Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons with epic spellcasting).

---
What energy immunities does he have? Cause I have an 18th level Incantatrix build that can prolly do enough HP damage in 1 round to off Bahamut.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The problem is the True Resurrection, which means you have to do it 3 times. Frankly, I prefer just dropping a level 13 small unarmed halfling crusader on him and putting him unconscious for eternity with it. But maybe that's just me.

[Renegade Paladin]

I note from the fact that this thread has reached four forum pages that there are probably people who think the exercise outlined in the OP is possible.

It isn't.

Know why? The stats linked to in the OP include divine rank 17. This means that Bahamut becomes aware of any and all plots against him, including yours, 17 weeks in advance. And kills you first.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I note from the fact that this thread has reached four forum pages that there are probably people who think the exercise outlined in the OP is possible.

It isn't.

Know why? The stats linked to in the OP include divine rank 17. This means that Bahamut becomes aware of any and all plots against him, including yours, 17 weeks in advance. And kills you first.

Live in a time stop.

I'm not exactly sure how that will help, but I know it will.

EDIT:Got it - you conceive of your plan to kill him in a timestop (which explicitly, simply states, that nothing can detect you or your actions in it), prepare inside it, and then bam, before he knows it, you've sprung on him.

[Rutee]

Live in a time stop.

I'm not exactly sure how that will help, but I know it will.

EDIT:Got it - you conceive of your plan to kill him in a timestop (which explicitly, simply states, that nothing can detect you or your actions in it), prepare inside it, and then bam, before he knows it, you've sprung on him.

Your plan still exists when you come out of the Time Stop. He's still aware.

I recommend a Death Note-ish Memory Gambit, wherein you delete your plan from your memory with a trigger. That MIGHT keep you safe. Depends on the wording of the ability though, and the plan /does/ still exist, even mind wiped from your memory with triggers to recover it.

Also, it's a non-epic spell. Srs question: Do we know what happens when God rules collide with spell rules?

[Collin152]

Your plan still exists when you come out of the Time Stop. He's still aware.

I recommend a Death Note-ish Memory Gambit, wherein you delete your plan from your memory with a trigger. That MIGHT keep you safe. Depends on the wording of the ability though, and the plan /does/ still exist, even mind wiped from your memory with triggers to recover it.

Also, it's a non-epic spell. Srs question: Do we know what happens when God rules collide with spell rules?

Programmed Amnesia to the rescue. It supresses the main plot you have, but reveals the next step as you come upon them.
It can do that, right?

[Rutee]

No idea, but the plan /still exists/. Depending on the wording of this precog Divine ability, that might not save you.

[Collin152]

Portfolio Sense
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.



So, if Bahamut's porfolio includes himself somehow, he'll know about the plan 18 weeks before you come up with it yourself.

[Ninja Chocobo]

It's simple really.

Step one: Get your self a high grade at least 100ft. Portable Hole®.

Step Two: Throw said Hole over the top of the Dragon Via a fly spell, assuming said Dragon is not already hostile.

Watch as Your Dragon problem is erased from the dimensions of height and Width via the good old fashion dimensional hole. In other words, The Dragon cannot exist in a place where matter cannot exist.

I have a variation on this theory, sort of.

You take a Portable Hole and tape it to a Tower Shield, opened.
Then you stuff Bahamut's head in it.
Then you remove the Tower Shield, and since the Portable Hole can only be opened on a surface, it closes, with Bahamut's head inside.

This may or may not be viable; I'm AFB right now.

And didn't the Vecna-blooded template remove the Portfolio Sense issue? If not, then I've misread the posts that suggested it.

Edit: You may be able to use an Enveloping Pit (MIC), if the Portable Hole isn't big enough.

[kemmotar]

Vecna blooded erases every memory of your existence from the minds of everyone except vecna. This happens at the time you gain the template. So once you make the plan, then the knowledge anyone else had of it is also erased. However, this does nto preclude them from rediscoering the plan...

[puppyavenger]

Vecna blooded erases every memory of your existence from the minds of everyone except vecna. This happens at the time you gain the template. So once you make the plan, then the knowledge anyone else had of it is also erased. However, this does nto preclude them from rediscoering the plan...

what about the stuff you do after you gain the template, and does haveing a higher DvR than Venca negate the effect?

[Quorothorn]

So, if Bahamut's porfolio includes himself somehow, he'll know about the plan 18 weeks before you come up with it yourself.

Leaving aside my personal vitriolic dislike of powers such as that, I'm pretty certain Bahamut's portfolio does not include, say, "plans to kill him". However, I think it's more "things affecting Good dragons"...which would most likely include him, and therefore things affecting him, like deicide plans.


...I ****ing hate "future-seeing" powers, if you'll excuse my language.

[Cuddly]

10 dex, not immune to ability damage, only problem is the SR. Find a way to overcome the SR or raise your CL, then just Maximized Shivering Touch it (metamagicked to change the [cold] descriptor to something else) and kill it. Repeat again when it resurrects.

Sort of sad. It has all of those immunities and absurd scores, and it still dies the exact same way every other dragon dies.

...and why does it only have 10 dex? It's almost like the author wanted it to be killed this way.

Well, first you have to get past his ability to see and hear and sense anything to do with his portfolio that occurs from 17 weeks in the past, to 17 weeks in the future.

Then you have to get through is 17 mile wide radius of death. And all the wyrms that probably hang out in his divine realm.

Then you have to contend with all the 24hour self buff spells that a level 46 cleric would have, including immunity to fire, col, acid, lightning, and sonic, which means no shivering touch for you.

Then you also have to contend with his 2 to 4 million year old stash of magical treasure, his ability to make artifacts, and the 10 free actions he can take every round.

Then you can start thinking about crunching numbers to even hurt him.

[puppyavenger]

a ring of three wishes
1. Wish for the multiverses best lawer, who is totaly loyal to you, will help you to the full extent of his abilitites, will not attampt to hinder you in any way, through action or inaction, magicly, physicly, phsycologicly, or by telling others about your plans.
2. useing the above lawer to avoid loop holes make a wish to remove bahumats divine ranks, powers and immunities
3. Wish Bahumat was dead, useing the above lawee to aoid loop holes.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Leaving aside my personal vitriolic dislike of powers such as that, I'm pretty certain Bahamut's portfolio does not include, say, "plans to kill him". However, I think it's more "things affecting Good dragons"...which would most likely include him, and therefore things affecting him, like deicide plans.


...I ****ing hate "future-seeing" powers, if you'll excuse my language.

Yeah, they're very annoying. There is a way to circumvent them, involving timestop, since that's what Lord of Procrastination &co over at the WotC boards Monty/Neo-Terminator (don't ask) used against Pun-Pun, who has his portfolio as 'everything', but it's really complicated. It had quintessence, I believe.

Also, Rutee - I'm depressed that you used Death Note as your example, and not The Manchurian Candidate. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

& Cuddly - what do you think CharOp and Batman are for? Trust me, there are easy (well, possible) ways of getting round those things.

& Puppyavenger - those wishes allow a lot of scope to be messed around with. They're recursive - assuming that they're even feasible (I don't think so - stripping divine ranks is pretty much the biggest power possible), you'll need your 'ultimate lawyer' to give the wording for the spell to summon him. You'd end up, with you're conditions, with an animated object, probably - it's the best lawyer that is incapable of hindering you or revealing you.


I'm also wondering if we couldn't do something with a Planar Bubble to the Outlands (thus negating all magical effects). That, at least, takes away his divine ranks, although you'll still be hard pressed to beat him then, even in non-magical, non-supernatural, non-divine form. Be ... I dunno, a Hetacheirontes Wizard 20? They're one of the nastiest non-magical things I can immediately think of.

[Rutee]

...Funny, all those look well beyond the scope of Wishes. The trick though is that if he sees your plan /before it can be formulated/, how do you form a defense, as he can use his Wishes, Miracles, and Divine powers to foil your plan-in-progress..

[Quorothorn]

Yeah, they're very annoying. There is a way to circumvent them, involving timestop, since that's what Lord of Procrastination &co over at the WotC boards Monty/Neo-Terminator (don't ask) used against Pun-Pun, who has his portfolio as 'everything', but it's really complicated. It had quintessence, I believe.

D&D's Noodle Incident, is it? Cool.

[Cuddly]

& Cuddly - what do you think CharOp and Batman are for? Trust me, there are easy (well, possible) ways of getting round those things.

Except that as a multimillion year old epic caster, you've already seen everything the char-op board came up with, probably twice. Anything the char op can do, a major deity can also do, except easier and faster.

I mean, as an epic caster, the Platinum Dragon already wins. Everything you bring up, Bahamut can already do, if he hasn't already.

[Emperor Tippy]

Except that as a multimillion year old epic caster, you've already seen everything the char-op board came up with, probably twice. Anything the char op can do, a major deity can also do, except easier and faster.

I mean, as an epic caster, the Platinum Dragon already wins. Everything you bring up, Bahamut can already do, if he hasn't already.

That's why my way works. I get epic casting by proxy.

And I can make some very wicked things with Epic Casting, especially Origin of the Species.

To the point where my new race has a CR of well over 200 based on stats and abilities before I am changed into in permanently. And I have an army of the things.

Hell, my guy can create solar systems at will as a standard action.

[Cuddly]

That's why my way works. I get epic casting by proxy.

And I can make some very wicked things with Epic Casting, especially Origin of the Species.

To the point where my new race has a CR of well over 200 based on stats and abilities before I am changed into in permanently. And I have an army of the things.

Hell, my guy can create solar systems at will as a standard action.

Well, right. And as soon as you start doing that, it turns out Bahamut was doing 17 weeks before you began, and as soon as your first epic ritual begins, bam, you're dust.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, right. And as soon as you start doing that, it turns out Bahamut was doing 17 weeks before you began, and as soon as your first epic ritual begins, bam, you're dust.

See thats why I'm smart enough to not even contemplate offing any god until after I already have the power to do so, and have had said power for a good year or so.

As for Bahamut doing it 17 weeks before I began. Well he has to conform to his role, god of dragons, and has already been statted out. How much he can abuse epic spellcasting to change all that is very DM dependent.

[Collin152]

Well, first you have to get past his ability to see and hear and sense anything to do with his portfolio that occurs from 17 weeks in the past, to 17 weeks in the future.

Then you have to get through is 17 mile wide radius of death. And all the wyrms that probably hang out in his divine realm.

Then you have to contend with all the 24hour self buff spells that a level 46 cleric would have, including immunity to fire, col, acid, lightning, and sonic, which means no shivering touch for you.

Then you also have to contend with his 2 to 4 million year old stash of magical treasure, his ability to make artifacts, and the 10 free actions he can take every round.

Then you can start thinking about crunching numbers to even hurt him.

I thought it said one week plus one week per divine rank, ergo, 18 weeks. I could be wrong, though.

[Cuddly]

See thats why I'm smart enough to not even contemplate offing any god until after I already have the power to do so, and have had said power for a good year or so.


...
Fail.


As for Bahamut doing it 17 weeks before I began. Well he has to conform to his role, god of dragons, and has already been statted out. How much he can abuse epic spellcasting to change all that is very DM dependent.

As is getting to wish for a CL40 scroll of wish and that cheese.
But with even a fraction of that cheese, he still crushes you months before your plan is ready.

[Collin152]

He's a good diety, though, right? Would he really kill you before you know what you did to offend him yourself?

[Chronos]

He's a good diety, though, right?Yes, but he's also a dragon. You know how the old saying goes, meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

[Khanderas]

lol....Bahamut, the platnum father of all metalic dragons slain by a 3rd level spell....lol....
I don't think that the standard dragonkiller spell will work here, since I'm reasonably certain that Bahamut has the cold subtype. Plus, Shivering Cheese still allows spell resistance, and 134 is an awful lot to try to Assay away.

Sad that it IS considered the standard dragonkiller. (or that there is a standard dragonkiller spell at all, no matter what level).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Guys, guys. Bahamut is in his Divine Realm and a Greater Deity. The following impediments are in effect:

1) He controls ALL astral links. You can't use Teleport-type powers, Gate, Astral Projection and the like unless he wants you to. He also controls ALL planar portals The only way to enter his domain is via Miracle and Wish.
2) His domain is in an Outer Plane. As such, it is not coexistent with the transitive plains, barring the Astral. So, you can't use shadow and ethereal -based spells at all.
3) He may apply the Enhanced Magic trait to up to four groups of spells. He has thus applied Purify or Sanctify Spell to Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination, making all those 4 schools of magic get the good descriptor.
4) He may limit magic of one school, descriptor or type. Because he's smart, he has limited good spells. Because Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination have the good descriptor, they are limited. NOONE can use them except for him within his domain.


So, here how's your plans are modified by the above:

1) All attempts to enter his domain fail except for Wish/Miracle.
2) All attempts to Timestop/celerity cheese automatically fail.
3) All attempts to the most useful buffs automatically fail (they're almost always transmutation or abjuration)
4) All attempts to dispel his defences automatically fail. So he has Deathward, Mind Blank, Energy Immunity (all) and Veil of Undeath and you can do nothing about it.
5) All attempts to find him within his domain by divinations fail. So you got to succeed in spot checks from 17 miles away (the range he can sense and attack you automatically.
6) All attempts to summon, call or otherwise transport creatures fail. No reinforcements.
7) All attempts to move magically automatically fail. You have to follow him on foot. He can still teleport.
8) All Pun-Puns entering his domain automatically lose their powers (they did get them through permanent transformations)
9) All attempts to boost your AC, saving throws and the like with spells or magic items do not function because item abilities are spell-like and they are limited if they are transmutation/abjuration/divination/conjuration.
10) You are no longer able to cast abjuration spells so you lose your incantatrix class abilities.
11) You are no longer able to cast spells from at least 5 schools of magic so you lose your archmage class abilities.
12) You are no longer able to leave his domain unless he wants you to except for Miracle and Wish.




So, how about slightly changing those plans?

[Cuddly]

Sad that it IS considered the standard dragonkiller. (or that there is a standard dragonkiller spell at all, no matter what level).

It's over-hyped, unless the DM runs his monsters as meat sacks waiting to be harvested for their XP. Dragons have to be run intelligently and given access to just as wide a selection of feats, spells and the like as the party, or else they can get wiped out by rays and the like.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Guys, guys. Bahamut is in his Divine Realm and a Greater Deity. The following impediments are in effect:

1) He controls ALL astral links. You can't use Teleport-type powers, Gate, Astral Projection and the like unless he wants you to. He also controls ALL planar portals The only way to enter his domain is via Miracle and Wish.
2) His domain is in an Outer Plane. As such, it is not coexistent with the transitive plains, barring the Astral. So, you can't use shadow and ethereal -based spells at all.
3) He may apply the Enhanced Magic trait to up to four groups of spells. He has thus applied Purify or Sanctify Spell to Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination, making all those 4 schools of magic get the good descriptor.
4) He may limit magic of one school, descriptor or type. Because he's smart, he has limited good spells. Because Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination have the good descriptor, they are limited. NOONE can use them except for him within his domain.


So, here how's your plans are modified by the above:

1) All attempts to enter his domain fail except for Wish/Miracle.
2) All attempts to Timestop/celerity cheese automatically fail.
3) All attempts to the most useful buffs automatically fail (they're almost always transmutation or abjuration)
4) All attempts to dispel his defences automatically fail. So he has Deathward, Mind Blank, Energy Immunity (all) and Veil of Undeath and you can do nothing about it.
5) All attempts to find him within his domain by divinations fail. So you got to succeed in spot checks from 17 miles away (the range he can sense and attack you automatically.
6) All attempts to summon, call or otherwise transport creatures fail. No reinforcements.
7) All attempts to move magically automatically fail. You have to follow him on foot. He can still teleport.
8) All Pun-Puns entering his domain automatically lose their powers (they did get them through permanent transformations)
9) All attempts to boost your AC, saving throws and the like with spells or magic items do not function because item abilities are spell-like and they are limited if they are transmutation/abjuration/divination/conjuration.
10) You are no longer able to cast abjuration spells so you lose your incantatrix class abilities.
11) You are no longer able to cast spells from at least 5 schools of magic so you lose your archmage class abilities.
12) You are no longer able to leave his domain unless he wants you to except for Miracle and Wish.

So, how about slightly changing those plans?

Uh, no, not really. Even if what you say is true, he's trapped in his divine realm, for fear of being got at while he's out. That's even assuming that we pull the hit when he's turtled up there. Your objections rely on him being in his divine realm.

I'd call that a win.

Sure, he can sic everything he has against us, but that will be comparatively easy to avoid - far realms tricks can help us, for example.

Also, what about my earlier idea - planar bubble? It doesn't explicitly state that it overwrites the existing plane, but that would be taken care of by making it to the outlands, which nullify divine traits and stuff. I don't know how the two would interact - which would take out the other first - but it's still an idea. Longcat knows how you grapple Bahamut within your field, but that's stage 2.

[Emperor Tippy]

Guys, guys. Bahamut is in his Divine Realm and a Greater Deity. The following impediments are in effect:

1) He controls ALL astral links. You can't use Teleport-type powers, Gate, Astral Projection and the like unless he wants you to. He also controls ALL planar portals The only way to enter his domain is via Miracle and Wish.
Or Epic casting. And it doesn't really matter anyways. Wish's are easy to get.


2) His domain is in an Outer Plane. As such, it is not coexistent with the transitive plains, barring the Astral. So, you can't use shadow and ethereal -based spells at all.
Again, doesn't really matter.


3) He may apply the Enhanced Magic trait to up to four groups of spells. He has thus applied Purify or Sanctify Spell to Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination, making all those 4 schools of magic get the good descriptor.
4) He may limit magic of one school, descriptor or type. Because he's smart, he has limited good spells. Because Transmutation, Abjuration, Conjuration and Divination have the good descriptor, they are limited. NOONE can use them except for him within his domain.
Again, while nice it doesn't really matter because all of the stuff I use is instantaneous.


So, here how's your plans are modified by the above:

1) All attempts to enter his domain fail except for Wish/Miracle.
Not a problem.

2) All attempts to Timestop/celerity cheese automatically fail.
Yes but my epic super time ability works just fine seeing as it is an ex ability. So I can speed up or slow down time for 5 rounds at will.


3) All attempts to the most useful buffs automatically fail (they're almost always transmutation or abjuration)
Actually none of my buffs are either. They are all racial.


4) All attempts to dispel his defences automatically fail. So he has Deathward, Mind Blank, Energy Immunity (all) and Veil of Undeath and you can do nothing about it.
Incorrect seeing as I can at will disjunction as an ex racial ability.

5) All attempts to find him within his domain by divinations fail. So you got to succeed in spot checks from 17 miles away (the range he can sense and attack you automatically.
All uses of the divination school fail. Not ex racial abilities so this isn't a problem either.


6) All attempts to summon, call or otherwise transport creatures fail. No reinforcements.
Yes but they either came in with me or aren't needed.


7) All attempts to move magically automatically fail. You have to follow him on foot. He can still teleport.
Again, unless you are abusing Origin of the Species.


8) All Pun-Puns entering his domain automatically lose their powers (they did get them through permanent transformations)
Actually no. Pun-Pun is of higher divine rank and all of his stuff is instantaneous. He is also immune to all divine abilities.


9) All attempts to boost your AC, saving throws and the like with spells or magic items do not function because item abilities are spell-like and they are limited if they are transmutation/abjuration/divination/conjuration.
Again, mine are all racial.

10) You are no longer able to cast abjuration spells so you lose your incantatrix class abilities.
Actually, so long as you have a single abjuration spell with the good descriptor or can cast one your fine. And Wall of Good has the good descriptor so that isn't a problem.

11) You are no longer able to cast spells from at least 5 schools of magic so you lose your archmage class abilities.
Again, you just need 1 spell from each school that has a good descriptor and your fine.

12) You are no longer able to leave his domain unless he wants you to except for Miracle and Wish.
Yet again, no real problem.


So, how about slightly changing those plans?
Nope. My plan still works just fine.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Or Epic casting.
Nope. Epic Spells still have schools of magic. If an Epic Spell falls into the limited magic school, it is limited by RAW.


Again, while nice it doesn't really matter because all of the stuff I use is instantaneous.
Nope. Origin of Spieces is permanent. Any creature you make is a permanent Conjuration. And because it is conjuration, it goes poof every time it enters Bahamut's domain. It doesn't matter what abilities it has or that its abilities are extraordinary because the creature itself is a Conjuration. Incidentally, Origin of Spieces can be dispelled-it is NOT instantaneous.



Yes but my epic super time ability works just fine seeing as it is an ex ability. So I can speed up or slow down time for 5 rounds at will.
No, you can't. You can't give abilities to yourself with Origin of Spieces-and any other creatures you create will go poof anyway. If you are such a created creature yourself, then you automatically go poof.


Actually none of my buffs are either. They are all racial.
No-see above. And it is impossible to give buffs like Mind Blank, Deathward, Deflect Ray and the like via Epic Magic. There are no rules for anything beyond giving numerical bonuses. That's one of the problems of epic magic. For example, there is no way to replicate Disjunction either.


Actually no. Pun-Pun is of higher divine rank and all of his stuff is instantaneous. He is also immune to all divine abilities.
No, he is not. Manipulate Form can give him Ex, Sp and Su abilities. Divine abilities do not fall under these categories so he can't have them. In addition, for him to grant an ability via Manipulate Form, that ability must exist and he must know that it exists-so, he CAN have all the EX/SU/SP abilities of all living creatures but not abilities that don't exist or that he doesn't know they exist. Finally, a Pun Pun cannot gain divinity for three reasons: a) he needs parts of a deity's body to copy a deity with Ice Assasin and deity bodies simply dissolve as deities are outsiders. b) even if he does copy a deity with Ice Assasin, the copy reverts to divine rank 0 as it has no worshippers so he can't make him a proxy. c) even if he does manage to "gain" DvR, he automatically reverts to rank 0 as he has no worshippers.


Uh, no, not really. Even if what you say is true, he's trapped in his divine realm, for fear of being got at while he's out. That's even assuming that we pull the hit when he's turtled up there. Your objections rely on him being in his divine realm.

I'd call that a win.

Sure, he can sic everything he has against us, but that will be comparatively easy to avoid - far realms tricks can help us, for example.
He is not trapped. He is at his most powerful. He simply casts Gate-you're extraplanar for his realm you know-and FORCES you to enter his realm with the added benefit of him automatically controlling you for 80+ rounds.
He could alternatively cast miracle and you'd have to make a DC 80 save or be brought before him outright-sans your items.


Also, what about my earlier idea - planar bubble? It doesn't explicitly state that it overwrites the existing plane, but that would be taken care of by making it to the outlands, which nullify divine traits and stuff. I don't know how the two would interact - which would take out the other first - but it's still an idea. Longcat knows how you grapple Bahamut within your field, but that's stage 2.
You can't planar bubble to the Outlands. The Outlands limit all magic before they limit deific power. The moment you try to replicate that effect, whatever magic you're trying to replicate ceases to function-and you're left where you started.

[Chronos]

Also note that Emperor Tippy's favorite gaterape trick doensn't work in the first place, since any 16th-level spellcaster has defenses against it. What these defenses are, I don't know, but I know they exist. Thus:

1: Someone else has gotten to high level before you.
2: At least some of those someone elses are immoral enough to use tricks like gaterape, if they're possible.
3: All of those someone elses must necessarily be paranoid and plan in great depths, or they would never have survived that far.
4: Those high-level someones would know that up-and-coming characters would try to challenge them, and would therefore take measures against this possibility.

Therefore, as soon as Emperor Tippy's wizard reached 16th level, some 18th-level wizard would have tried the gaterape trick on him. From the fact that Tippy's wizard is now 17th level, we know that he managed to counteract the trick somehow. And the prismatic dragons he's trying to get are much higher level than 16th, so whatever defense the tipzard pulled off, the prismatic dragons can pull off, too. Which presumably leaves the tipzard surrounded by a bunch of very angry and uncontrolled great wyrm prismatic dragons, with his best spell slots significantly depleted. Anyone want to take bets on the outcome?

[Vexxation]

Okay, so to throw more fuel to the fire:
It seems Bahamut can see 17 or 18 weeks into the future. It doesn't matter which.

How often, on average, would you suppose he would get a little, "Ding! Someone wants to kill me" message. I mean, he's a Good god, and there's lots of people worshiping Evil gods. Logically he'd get a lot of "Ding"s. So is he that likely to even bother investigating further into your plan? Remember, what we have here is one of the most powerful creatures in the multiverse, so powerful that people go so far as to say killing him is impossible. Wouldn't that arrogance leave him to the point where he just sort of says, "Bring it on, buddy"? If he's impossible to kill in the eyes of so many, why should he believe any different?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Nope. Epic Spells still have schools of magic. If an Epic Spell falls into the limited magic school, it is limited by RAW.

What about psionics?


No, he is not. Manipulate Form can give him Ex, Sp and Su abilities. Divine abilities do not fall under these categories so he can't have them. In addition, for him to grant an ability via Manipulate Form, that ability must exist and he must know that it exists-so, he CAN have all the EX/SU/SP abilities of all living creatures [quote]but not abilities that don't exist

Er, re-read the debate over manipulate form. The poorly parsing, loop-hole filled text goes against you, I'm afraid. See here -http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801.


or that he doesn't know they exist.

Infinite knowledge checks.


Finally, a Pun Pun cannot gain divinity for three reasons: a) he needs parts of a deity's body to copy a deity with Ice Assasin and deity bodies simply dissolve as deities are outsiders.

Wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin of a deity with components built in. Sure, such a scroll can never be crafted, and it isn't - it's being created via the wish.


b) even if he does copy a deity with Ice Assasin, the copy reverts to divine rank 0 as it has no worshippers so he can't make him a proxy. c) even if he does manage to "gain" DvR, he automatically reverts to rank 0 as he has no worshippers.

Point me to the rule that states that you lose DvR if you lose followers.


He is not trapped. He is at his most powerful. He simply casts Gate-you're extraplanar for his realm you know-and FORCES you to enter his realm with the added benefit of him automatically controlling you for 80+ rounds.
He could alternatively cast miracle and you'd have to make a DC 80 save or be brought before him outright-sans your items.

Re-read gate. You can't.


Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.


You can't planar bubble to the Outlands. The Outlands limit all magic before they limit deific power. The moment you try to replicate that effect, whatever magic you're trying to replicate ceases to function-and you're left where you started.

By that token, you can't cast antimagic field, since it negates itself. Evidently you can, though, so the above point is wrong. It's the same problem as the Dragon Disciple, who, upon gaining 10th level, can no longer qualify for the class. In that case, however, he loses the ability that stopped him from qualifying, and thus qualifies again, etc.

Also, are we now arguing whether PUN-PUN can defeat Bahamut?

[Rutee]

Okay, so to throw more fuel to the fire:
It seems Bahamut can see 17 or 18 weeks into the future. It doesn't matter which.

How often, on average, would you suppose he would get a little, "Ding! Someone wants to kill me" message. I mean, he's a Good god, and there's lots of people worshiping Evil gods. Logically he'd get a lot of "Ding"s. So is he that likely to even bother investigating further into your plan? Remember, what we have here is one of the most powerful creatures in the multiverse, so powerful that people go so far as to say killing him is impossible. Wouldn't that arrogance leave him to the point where he just sort of says, "Bring it on, buddy"? If he's impossible to kill in the eyes of so many, why should he believe any different?

The Precog doesn't give him a vague idea, from what I gatherred. It is actually quite accurate; If Tippy's plan were valid, Bahamut would know ahead of time.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Also note that Emperor Tippy's favorite gaterape trick doensn't work in the first place, since any 16th-level spellcaster has defenses against it. What these defenses are, I don't know, but I know they exist. Thus:

1: Someone else has gotten to high level before you.
2: At least some of those someone elses are immoral enough to use tricks like gaterape, if they're possible.
3: All of those someone elses must necessarily be paranoid and plan in great depths, or they would never have survived that far.
4: Those high-level someones would know that up-and-coming characters would try to challenge them, and would therefore take measures against this possibility.

Therefore, as soon as Emperor Tippy's wizard reached 16th level, some 18th-level wizard would have tried the gaterape trick on him. From the fact that Tippy's wizard is now 17th level, we know that he managed to counteract the trick somehow. And the prismatic dragons he's trying to get are much higher level than 16th, so whatever defense the tipzard pulled off, the prismatic dragons can pull off, too. Which presumably leaves the tipzard surrounded by a bunch of very angry and uncontrolled great wyrm prismatic dragons, with his best spell slots significantly depleted. Anyone want to take bets on the outcome?

Firstly, I'd sort of prefer you to call that tactic by a different name. It's fairly unpleasant and belittling, as it stands. We're also presuming a vacuum, here as well; we're taking wizard vs. Bahamut, not wizard vs everything above his ECL.


Okay, so to throw more fuel to the fire:
It seems Bahamut can see 17 or 18 weeks into the future. It doesn't matter which.

How often, on average, would you suppose he would get a little, "Ding! Someone wants to kill me" message. I mean, he's a Good god, and there's lots of people worshiping Evil gods. Logically he'd get a lot of "Ding"s. So is he that likely to even bother investigating further into your plan? Remember, what we have here is one of the most powerful creatures in the multiverse, so powerful that people go so far as to say killing him is impossible. Wouldn't that arrogance leave him to the point where he just sort of says, "Bring it on, buddy"? If he's impossible to kill in the eyes of so many, why should he believe any different?

Especially when you consider the Abyss - there are infinite demons there. What percentage of the population wake up with the intention to kill Bahaumt? 1 in 1 billion?

That means that Bahamut gets an infinite, neverending stream of threats.

Sure, we may only consider what happens with ones who actually make an attempt, but that still leaves infinite balors.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Antimagic field does not affect antimagic field-that is specifically stated in the spell. That is why an AMF doesn't shut down itself. For the Dragon Disciple, it is just bad rules design.


Wish for a scroll of Ice Assassin of a deity with components built in.
You can only Wish for something with a cost of 25.000 gp or less. Scrolls are priced according to their components. The Ice Assasin scroll costs already 20.000 gp for the base component, 25.000 gp for its XP cost, an additional 3.000 gp for the scroll itself. And the deity's body part is priceless. And don't forget that, when you Wish for items, you pay in XP twice the normal crafting XP cost in addition to the XP component of the Wish. Because the additional cost is part of the Wishes' effect and not the standard XP component, it does not go away if it is spell-like or supernatural. That means someone has to pay up ~20.000 XP when wishing for a standard Ice Assasin cost, much more if the body part would be costly as well.


Er, re-read the debate over manipulate form. The poorly parsing, loop-hole filled text goes against you, I'm afraid
Hey, no problem. The trick requires use of Savage Spieces which was a 3.0 book that wasn't upgraded to 3.5 so Pun Pun does not exist in 3.5 edition anyway. Also, by RAW:
A sarrukh may use this ability... Since the dreaded kobold is NOT a sarrukh but a kobold, technically it cannot use this ability even if it has it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

You can only Wish for something with a cost of 25.000 gp or less.

Got to go now, but one quick thing - I'm afraid not. The monetary restriction is on non-magical items.

[quote]Scrolls are priced according to their components. The Ice Assasin scroll costs already 20.000 gp for the base component, 25.000 gp for its XP cost, an additional 3.000 gp for the scroll itself. And the deity's body part is priceless. And don't forget that, when you Wish for items, you pay in XP twice the normal crafting XP cost in addition to the XP component of the Wish. Because the additional cost is part of the Wishes' effect and not the standard XP component, it does not go away if it is spell-like or supernatural. That means someone has to pay up ~20.000 XP when wishing for a standard Ice Assasin cost, much more if the body part would be costly as well.

Eh, supernatural spell.

[Collin152]

You can only Wish for something with a cost of 25.000 gp or less.

Wish just says it can create a mundane object of that price. It then states that it can create magic items or add to the powers of existing magic items. NO price limit is given for magic items.

Edit: Ninja'd!

[Citizen Jenkins]

Also, are we now arguing whether PUN-PUN can defeat Bahamut?

I would like to second this. There's nothing in the OP which indicates that Bahamut was in his own realm, or had any of his allies with him. Nor can I think of any reason to assume this; whenever these kinds of hunts come up, be it the GiTP Hunt Club or Fax's Crab, it's always essentially a one-on-one match up in neutral territory. This keeps it fair, as Bahamut would be just as screwed up in a Wizard's privately made plane as they would in his.

The only relevant point is his precognitive ability. I will agree it's dangerous but it can be defeated (transitioning to the Far Realms for example) and from what Collin152 posted I'm not sure how much information Bahamut would actually have. It says he knows that the event is occurring and where but he does not receive any sensory information. As it furthers says that after he knows of the event he may observe it through his remote sensing powers to perceive the event. The specific mention of the remote sensing power, along with its specific use with this, indicates to me that the information from the precognitive ability is extremely limited, likely to include knowledge of an attack and possibly a hint regarding it's nature but nothing more. After reading the remote sensing ability here,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#remoteSensing
I would like to note two apparent problems with Bahamut knowing about planning in advance. First, the remote sensing, while crossing planes and magical barriers, does not cross time and I can see no reason to interpret it so. Second, it is limited to events within one mile of his sacred sites, worshipers, holy sites, etc (which is fairly easy to do) or an event related to his portfolio. Here I would like to draw a distinction because the event (attacking Bahamut) which has not occurred yet, and the planning, which does not directly affect his portfolio. It is related to the event which affects Bahamut but is not directly related and so, by my reading, should not be subject to his precognitive ability. To be blunt, if deities can sense things which may affect things which will affect their portfolio, then we might as well toss out the limitation of portfolios altogether , since deities will sense the events which may affect the people of the island which in the future will affect the small child who one day may come within a mile of a place where someone said Bahamut's name within the last hour. So the way I see it, there are two interpretations. First, the designers were at least mildly competent, intended deities to only be able to sense things directly related to their portfolio, and wrote it so. Second, the designers were penniless crack addicts and every deity knows everything that ever happened anywhere. So it seems to me that while Bahamut would have warning about the event (an attempt on his life), the existence of the Remote Sensing ability indicates that it is highly limited knowledge (so no exact knowledge of plans) and his Remote Sensing ability is limited enough that any clever wizard could simply isolate himself and therefore be safe. However, the point, while interesting to me, is rather moot because the wizard still has various methods of avoiding even the most liberal reading to Bahamut's precognitive ability.

Third, the original posting and the title of the thread are "Can a Level 20 Wizard kill Bahamut", to which the answer seems to be yes. Some of them are far less likely than others (mostly dependent on how much cheese was used) but there are at least three builds in the thread which can get around his defensive actions, spell resistance, saves, immunities, and contingent resurrection ability, meaning that they all have a chance of killing him. It doesn't really matter whether you use the Trap the Soul method (low cheese), the Dweomerkeeper-Tainted Scholar method (mid-high cheese), or Tippy's mindraped super-dragon epic magic silliness (silly cheese), they all have varying chances of killing him. Trying to get a confirmed kill out of this is an exercise in futility because there are simply too many variables. The original question, to rephrase it slightly, is whether a level 20 wizard can muster a magical offensive strong enough to best the defenses of Bahamut, a question which appears quite settled at this point.

[Collin152]

Wooh! Something I said was deemed relevant!

[Emperor Tippy]

Nope. Epic Spells still have schools of magic. If an Epic Spell falls into the limited magic school, it is limited by RAW.
Yep. Except once the thing created by Origin of the Species pops out a kid all of those abilities become racial and are of no school. Besides, if you were inclined you could make them all from the Necromancy school and have the good descriptor if you wanted.


Nope. Origin of Spieces is permanent. Any creature you make is a permanent Conjuration. And because it is conjuration, it goes poof every time it enters Bahamut's domain. It doesn't matter what abilities it has or that its abilities are extraordinary because the creature itself is a Conjuration. Incidentally, Origin of Spieces can be dispelled-it is NOT instantaneous.
Yes. But the broken line is origin of the species is "Any creature created by an Origin of the Species spell breeds true". You don't get mind switched with the original, you get mind switched with a descendant. Which can't be dispelled.


No, you can't. You can't give abilities to yourself with Origin of Spieces-and any other creatures you create will go poof anyway. If you are such a created creature yourself, then you automatically go poof.
Again, no. See above about the poofing. As for you gaining the abilities. Thats why the species you create has a nice little instantaneous duration, true mind switch and has racial loyalty to you. You use Origin of the Species. The creation pops out a kid. You order the kid to use its Mind Switch ability on you. You are now whatever form you wanted, with all the nice Ex abilities.


No-see above. And it is impossible to give buffs like Mind Blank, Deathward, Deflect Ray and the like via Epic Magic. There are no rules for anything beyond giving numerical bonuses. That's one of the problems of epic magic. For example, there is no way to replicate Disjunction either.
Incorrect. You can. Read origin of the species. You can give them any epic spell as any type of ability you want. Ex just multiply the DC by 5.


No, he is not. Manipulate Form can give him Ex, Sp and Su abilities. Divine abilities do not fall under these categories so he can't have them. In addition, for him to grant an ability via Manipulate Form, that ability must exist and he must know that it exists-so, he CAN have all the EX/SU/SP abilities of all living creatures but not abilities that don't exist or that he doesn't know they exist. Finally, a Pun Pun cannot gain divinity for three reasons: a) he needs parts of a deity's body to copy a deity with Ice Assasin and deity bodies simply dissolve as deities are outsiders. b) even if he does copy a deity with Ice Assasin, the copy reverts to divine rank 0 as it has no worshippers so he can't make him a proxy. c) even if he does manage to "gain" DvR, he automatically reverts to rank 0 as he has no worshippers.
Read the Pun-Pun thread. He has unlimited Divine Ranks and can give himself any ability he wants up to and including "I win".


He is not trapped. He is at his most powerful. He simply casts Gate-you're extraplanar for his realm you know-and FORCES you to enter his realm with the added benefit of him automatically controlling you for 80+ rounds.
He could alternatively cast miracle and you'd have to make a DC 80 save or be brought before him outright-sans your items.
Except for my nice little epic ability which makes me immune to any non epic spell and any epic spell has to make a CL check to work.


You can't planar bubble to the Outlands. The Outlands limit all magic before they limit deific power. The moment you try to replicate that effect, whatever magic you're trying to replicate ceases to function-and you're left where you started.
Again, with epic magic its possible.

------
Before you argue things you really should look at how they work.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Read the Pun-Pun thread. He has unlimited Divine Ranks and can give himself any ability he wants up to and including "I win".

Tippy - not up to date with Pun-Pun's power source, eh? Tut, tut. :smallannoyed: :smalltongue:

Pun Pun's true, game-smashing nastiness actually comes from a completely different source* now - Monty (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-690806)

He's a 20th level psion (not a wizard, but close), which fulfils the brief.



*(well, the time-scrubbing concept behind him - the Terminator, NeoTerminator, and Temporal Workshop builds came first, but Monty's remarkable for not needing divine ranks or 'I win' - nor, indeed, manipulate form).

[BadJuJu]

One also has to CDG him for over 112 damage to be absolutely sure that Bahamut fails his saving throw. Sure, that's easily accomplished by a specialized fighter with a scythe and Power Attack, but will a Wizard really be able to do that on his own? He'd still need help or will have to resort to using a weapon he most likely won't have proficiencies in.

(Then again, shapechange to Balor for the Vorpal sword :P)

Or have a BDF w/ a Scyth and PA Dominated in advance. Then bring him out of your Portable Hole and have him wail away.

[Chronos]

Firstly, I'd sort of prefer you to call that tactic by a different name. It's fairly unpleasant and belittling, as it stands.He's using Gate to force a creature to undergo mindrape. I think that the name "gaterape" for that tactic is suitably descriptive. And yes, it's unpleasant, but it's applied to a tactic which is incredibly evil.

Still, the point remains: If that tactic, whatever it's called, worked, then someone would have already tried it on Emperor Tippy's wizard, and that wizard either successfully defended against it, or he didn't.

Heck, this general argument applies to any tactic by which a mortal might attempt to defeat Bahamut: If you're a powerful enough character to even attempt such a trick, then there are sure to be those in the multiverse who would desire your defeat, and some of them would try such a tactic on you. If the tactic is sufficient to defeat the defenses of a rank 17 deity with a caster level over twice yours and a bunch of other goodies, then the same tactic is sufficient to defeat your own defenses.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

All attempts so far seem to give the advantage to the wizard. The wizard can plan for as long as they like while Bahamut, a deity in war with other deities-including Tiamat-is assumed to be completely unprepared.



The only relevant point is his precognitive ability. I will agree it's dangerous but it can be defeated (transitioning to the Far Realms for example) and from what Collin152 posted I'm not sure how much information Bahamut would actually have.
Bahamut senses any events pertaining to dragonkind 17 weeks before they happen. He is a dragon. So, he can sense events relating to him. He senses that those events will happen and when and he can concentrate to find where by focusing his remote sensing. The problem with hiding your plan is:
Event: You try to discover Bahamut's defences so you can plan to fight him specifically. (your character needs to somehow find your OOC knowledge that Bahamut is not immune to acid-he is not supposed to know it even though you do)
Event: You prepare specifically against Bahamut, making the required spells/item purchases.
Event: You attack Bahamut.
Evant: You manage to kill Bahamut.

Bahamut senses every one of the above events. Your preparation you could hide in the Far Realms. Unfortunately (for you), Bahamut is not in the Far Realm. He is either in the Prime, aiding the mortal dragons or in his home plane. Neither of those locations are out of time. So, Bahamut automatically senses the attack, 17 weeks before the attack happens. Moments later, Bahamut senses his imminent death, 17 weeks before he is slain.

Naturally, sensing a lethal attack means Bahamut will immediately take matters seriously. He will fall back to his domain, prepare as much as possible with his epic magic and precast spells, then surprise you by being fully prepared for the fight.

As a result, giving a wizard time for preparation and not Bahamut is not realistic. Ofcourse, you can put both Bahamut and the wizard in an arena without preparation. In that case, the wizard dies horribly in 1 round. Otherwise, you have to put both Bahamut and the wizard fully prepared in neutral ground-in which case the wizard dies horribly.



To Emperor Tippy:


Yes. But the broken line is origin of the species is "Any creature created by an Origin of the Species spell breeds true". You don't get mind switched with the original, you get mind switched with a descendant. Which can't be dispelled.

Again, no. See above about the poofing. As for you gaining the abilities. Thats why the species you create has a nice little instantaneous duration, true mind switch and has racial loyalty to you. You use Origin of the Species. The creation pops out a kid. You order the kid to use its Mind Switch ability on you. You are now whatever form you wanted, with all the nice Ex abilities.
Why would it have racial loyalty to you? It is an experiment you, a mortal wizard, created for the sole reason of stealing its body to use against a deity. In addition, it is several orders of magnitude stronger than you-why would it give its abilities to you for the exchange of a useless wizard's body?


Incorrect. You can. Read origin of the species. You can give them any epic spell as any type of ability you want. Ex just multiply the DC by 5.
First, you have to make the Origin of Spieces for the base creature. The base DC for an Archierai is 755-that is for a 4 HD creature with no abilities of note. To make something capable of fighting Bahamut, the DC would be around 750.000.
Secondly, you have to replicate with an Epic Spell the abilities you want. Guess what? There is no way to replicate Mind Switch, Disjunction or Deathward/Mind Blank buffs with RAW Epic Magic.


Read the Pun-Pun thread. He has unlimited Divine Ranks and can give himself any ability he wants up to and including "I win".
I read the thread. Just because a thread claims something is possible doesn't mean it actually is. Go ahead, tell me: how will you become a Pun Pun? The ability that could make someone into a Pun Pun cannot be used by anyone except a Sarrukh even if you do get it and Sarrukh are immune to it themselves. So, you can't become one. The author of that thread ofcourse disregarded that.


Again, with epic magic its possible.
Go ahead-make me a RAW Epic Spell that can replicate the effects of the Outlands.

Finally, if you start Gating a large amount of Solars or Planar Dragons or other extraplanar creatures to get unwilling, via Dominate, participants in a ritual, you're doomed. Those creatures do not exist in a vacuum-and anyone who misses them will certainly oppose your attempts to enslave them. Anything that doesn't fall under Leadership that gives you willing followers will be unwilling to help you without a reward. And as long as you assume there are other creatures you can find and enslave to help you with your ritual, we can always assume they have friends, allies and superiors that will oppose you. The natural consequences of enslaving even ONE dragon include Bahamut sensing you enslaved a Dragon-seeing as his portofolio includes Dragonkind and he is a Greater Deity. Furthermore, Bahamut senses you will enslave that dragon 17 weeks before you enslave him. It is simple for Bahamut to alert said dragon to cast a Dimensional Anchor on itself so it cannot pass through a Gate and thus it can't be called and enslaved.
Naturally, the same principle applies to any Epic Monster/NPC you wish to enlist unwillingly-their own deities, seeing as most epic outsiders and dragons are their direct servants-will simply warn them.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well, I've just thought of another idea, that could help us, Tippy.

Quintessence.

Make/acquire tons of the stuff (which you could do without planning the attack). Put it, I don't know, in your bags of holding or something.

Enter timestop/temporal acceleration.

Approach Bahamut. Cover him in the stuff (note that this isn't prevented by Timestop, since we are neither attacking him nor casting a spell at him).

Restart time, and you've separated Bahamut from the time stream.

I'm not sure how this would interact with portfolio sense - from Bahamut's own timeline, he never experiences an attack. What do the people think?

[Setra]

I'm just going to.. revise something or two.

First off, I did not JUST limit Titan Gate Chaining, I limited anything OF THAT LEVEL OF CHEESE. Gateraping is the same level of cheese, therefore I don't think it counts.

Second off, my original thought was level 20 Wizard (or just level 20 Character of some sort, Wizard/Archmage if you will, whatever) prepares a bunch of spells and basically sets off to kill Bahamut.

I was curious to see if someone could come up with a build to kill something with the stats listed, not necessarily something that could see 17(18?) weeks into the past. That's no fun, because nothing could kill it (Which of course would be why that rule exists for deities I'd imagine), if you understand what I mean?

I believe there WAS a build like this earlier though that didn't include ubercheese.. next time I make a thread like this I'm disallowing the spell 'Gate' in and of itself.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm just going to.. revise something or two.

First off, I did not JUST limit Titan Gate Chaining, I limited anything OF THAT LEVEL OF CHEESE. Gateraping is the same level of cheese, therefore I don't think it counts.

Second off, my original thought was level 20 Wizard (or just level 20 Character of some sort, Wizard/Archmage if you will, whatever) prepares a bunch of spells and basically sets off to kill Bahamut.

I was curious to see if someone could come up with a build to kill something with the stats listed, not necessarily something that could see 17(18?) weeks into the past. That's no fun, because nothing could kill it (Which of course would be why that rule exists for deities I'd imagine), if you understand what I mean?

I believe there WAS a build like this earlier though that didn't include ubercheese.. next time I make a thread like this I'm disallowing the spell 'Gate' in and of itself.

Your asking for an ECL 20 to take out a CR 107, DR 17, god. Anything that allows that is on the same level of cheese as Titan Gate chaining or gateraping.

Even at ECL 100 the wizard wouldn't get any XP for offing Bahamut.

[Citizen Jenkins]

I shall be limited to a short reply.

Chronos: Nope, I don't have to argue that the Tippywizard, the Dweomer-Scholar, or any of them have an adequate defense against their own strategies. I'm perfectly willing to accept that making these kinds of builds commonplace would result in widespread death and destruction equivalent to passing out anti-ossmium bats to three year-old ADD sociopaths. I'm perfectly willing to accept that a large group of Tippywizards would gleefully butcher themselves as well as the gods and any other powerful magical force in existence in an orgy of death and destruction, leaving behind only a large mass of commoners and low level PCs who weren't involved. My sole argument is that Bahamut would die in this insane world just like everyone else because the offensive power and effectiveness of these techniques would make even the strongest defenses meaningless. I don't play that kind of game, most people don't, but it is supported by my reading of RAW.

Belial: I disagree, Bahamut can only sense one of those events. I am not seeking special knowledge of him because I don't need to know if he has resistance to acid or any other specific spells, the kind of magical attacks I use (again, Magic Jar is a favorite) are so rarely defended against that just generally assume no one bothers. Second, I do not prepare any spells specifically against him, I'm just using the same standard spell selection I use when I usually commit deicide or cull the ranks of the Infernal elite. On both these points, I will acknowledge that the Trap the Soul strategy does run afoul of these problems but both the Dweomer-Scholar and the Tippywizard are not preparing specifically for Bahamut as using generic deicide tactics, with all the creepiness that phrase implies (see my response to Chronos). Finally, I do acknowledge that the Tippywizard, as I understand it, has a certain kill so Bahamut might be sufficiently frightened by that but the Dweomer-Scholar does not have an assured kill. If Bahamut gets a natural 20 on his saving throw he survives and since we cannot know the outcome of that roll, we are faced with two possible futures. While I'm willing to accept some of your analysis on his precognition, I see absolutely nothing to indicate that Bahamut is capable of sensing potential futures and outcomes.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Portfolio Sense
Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

This is under deity rules in the SRD. So, Bahamut, whose portofolio includes dragons and he is a dragon himself, automatically senses any event involving dragons (and thus himself) seventeen weeks before it happens. He also knows where the event will happen. Once he notices the event (and he will), he can use his remote sensing to perceive it (even if it still is 17 weeks into the future.


Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location

In addition to the above, also under divine rules:


Always Maximize Roll
Greater deities (rank 16-20) automatically get the best result possible on any check, saving throw, attack roll, or damage roll. Calculate success, failure, or other effects accordingly. When a greater deity makes a check, attack, or save assume a 20 was rolled and calculate success or failure from there. A d20 should still be rolled and used to check for a threat of a critical hit. This quality means that greater deities never need the Maximize Spell feat, because their spells have maximum effect already.

So Bahamut automatically succeeds in his saving throws and attack rolls regardless of the DC or AC of the opponent.

[Aquillion]

So Bahamut automatically succeeds in his saving throws and attack rolls regardless of the DC or AC of the opponent.Untrue. Saving throws don't auto-succeed on a 20.

[Collin152]

Untrue. Saving throws don't auto-succeed on a 20.

Which is why Epic Magic is out of the question altogether.

[martyboy74]

To Emperor Tippy:

I read the thread. Just because a thread claims something is possible doesn't mean it actually is. Go ahead, tell me: how will you become a Pun Pun? The ability that could make someone into a Pun Pun cannot be used by anyone except a Sarrukh even if you do get it and Sarrukh are immune to it themselves. So, you can't become one. The author of that thread ofcourse disregarded that.

Apparently you didn't read it well enough. He gives his familiar (or whatever the hell it is now...) this ability.

Manipulate Form (Ex):
This creature can give any creature any ability.


Also, you guys are going about this in a far too complicated fashion. All you have to do is teleport an unholy sword into Bahamut's heart!

[Collin152]

Apparently you didn't read it well enough. He gives his familiar (or whatever the hell it is now...) this ability.

Manipulate Form (Ex):
This creature can give any creature any ability.


Also, you guys are going about this in a far too complicated fashion. All you have to do is teleport an unholy sword into Bahamut's heart!

Nah, Bahamut cast that spell that replaces his heart with a stone. His heart is more protected than he is, so don't even bother.

[Aquillion]

The only real way I can think of involves some cheese.

First, foiling portfolio sense. This can be difficult. The 'easy' way would be to get the protection of an equal or greater deity somehow, but we'll leave that aside for now and see how we can do it entirely on our own at level 20.

We need to understand what we're dealing with. How much information does he get? How sensitive is it? Does Bahamut know 17 weeks in advance whenever anyone even thinks of killing him?

My interpretation is that he only knows about things that directly impact his portfolios (if it works more broadly, it's useless, because he could never follow up on every single person who ever considered fighting him.) That means he only gets a warning ~17 weeks before he is actually attacked. So, if we put together our plan and put it into motion 18 weeks or more in advance, he can't stop us. Another possibility is to make our plan in someplace that is barred to deities -- Sigil in particular comes to mind. While Bahamut may be aware of it, it is unlikely given his personality that he would attack Sigil just to stop a potential threat. However, operating out of Sigil places constraints on some of the things we can do, as well.

In any case, we just need a plan that (1) can be delayed for 18 weeks, and (2) Bahamut won't be able to do anything about, with 18 weeks to prepare.

There is only one plan I can even remotely think of that will satisfy both these requirements, and it involves cheese. We will have to use Ice Assassin + Dweomerkeeper (to eliminate all the components, including material and XP.) At least twice, since we want our Ice Assassins to have enough advantage to counterbalance his treasure (note that ice assassins are under our complete control and are filled with an all-consuming need to kill the original, so they won't attack each other.) Since these assassins are under our direct control, they won't attack until we order them to, which makes waiting 18 weeks easy. Once enough time has passed for Bahamut to find out about them, it's too late -- attacking would just be exposing himself to them, since with multiple duplicates of him under our control we have the advantage in any fight (and will be forewarned if he does decide to attack.) Additionally, they have all of Bahamut's abilities, so his divine realm helps them just as much as it helps him.

[RedShift zX]

LOL...im sorry, but after reading through soo many threads about how epic (levels 20-40 or so) characers can take over the world, are gods among mortals...Seeing these stats just makes me laugh..

Now SPELLCASTING aside...Could you even think of the rediculous kind of characters you would need to even scratch him? Especially melee oriented ones?... like Homebrew'd-up-the-a$$ +35 Adamantine Greatsword..With about 12 different Epic special abiliites added on...Same goes for armor... And even then, you'd need to be around level 100, have rolled 18's on ALL of your stats right from the beginning...Then Just given your uber-godwarrior the "Monster of Legend" template (+10 Str & Con, +6 dex, +2 Int Wis Char and some other choice abilities) for added uberness...Even THEN....are you joking? Like immagine a Multi-class 20 Warblade/ 20 Barbarian/ 20 Fighter (ff6shadow's version) / 15 Ranger / 20 Sorcerer (ff6 shadow's version too)/ Divine rank 1...With every item on the "Major Epic Artifact" level..Like what i mentioned above....

Even then?

Bahumut casts " Vengful gaze of god "
Godwarrior : Fails will save
'Dies'

Pointless much?

EDIT: Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons have a CR of 68.

[Weiser_Cain]

Fighter 20 Wizard 20 Eldritch Knight 20 Divine rank 1
Still die

[the_tick_rules]

absolutely not. unless the wizard kills tiamat in round one which is impossible tiamat is like 5 level 20 wizards and 5 dragons at once. There's just no way

[Illiterate Scribe]

absolutely not. unless the wizard kills tiamat in round one which is impossible tiamat is like 5 level 20 wizards and 5 dragons at once. There's just no way


LOL...im sorry, but after reading through soo many threads about how epic (levels 20-40 or so) characers can take over the world, are gods among mortals...Seeing these stats just makes me laugh..

Now SPELLCASTING aside...Could you even think of the rediculous kind of characters you would need to even scratch him? Especially melee oriented ones?... like Homebrew'd-up-the-a$$ +35 Adamantine Greatsword..With about 12 different Epic special abiliites added on...Same goes for armor... And even then, you'd need to be around level 100, have rolled 18's on ALL of your stats right from the beginning...Then Just given your uber-godwarrior the "Monster of Legend" template (+10 Str & Con, +6 dex, +2 Int Wis Char and some other choice abilities) for added uberness...Even THEN....are you joking? Like immagine a Multi-class 20 Warblade/ 20 Barbarian/ 20 Fighter (ff6shadow's version) / 15 Ranger / 20 Sorcerer (ff6 shadow's version too)/ Divine rank 1...With every item on the "Major Epic Artifact" level..Like what i mentioned above....

Even then?

Bahumut casts " Vengful gaze of god "
Godwarrior : Fails will save
'Dies'

Pointless much?

EDIT: Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragons have a CR of 68.

Read the thread. At least four methods of killing Bahamut have been isolated.


Death by Pun Pun (OK ...)
Death by Tippy's origin of species monster
Death by High CL Blasphemy (Madness!)
Defeat by Quintessence immersion

[RedShift zX]

Read the thread...

I did, most of it.

You'll also notice that there is a word in all capitals in my post too...Which throws out most of those ideas. If not all.

So what im speaking of...Is a hypothetical situation on the prime plane, in a 1 on 1 battle. And the sorc levels on that immaginary characters are mainly for the will save & a blaster type. No gating & Prismatic dragon cheese.

Read the post. *wink*

EDIT: WTF is "Pun-pun"?

[Illiterate Scribe]

I did, most of it.

You'll also notice that there is a word in all capitals in my post too...Which throws out most of those ideas. If not all.

The way I read it, you were saying that it was impossible with spellcasting AND combat. My bad.

So what im speaking of...Is a hypothetical situation on the prime plane, in a 1 on 1 battle. And the sorc levels on that immaginary characters are mainly for the will save & a blaster type. No gating & Prismatic dragon cheese.[/quote]

A blaster?? You're going to have to find a way of dealing 4280 damage in one round then, before he gets you.


Read the post. *wink*

Meh, it would be eminently possible using an ubercharger build, provided you could get round the aura.


EDIT: WTF is "Pun-pun"?

Meet the deity of optimisation. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801)
:smallbiggrin:

[Talic]

Fighter 20 Wizard 20 Eldritch Knight 20 Divine rank 1
Still die

No there is a Hulk hurler build that gets over 1 trillion damage. Wizard dominates two of those. Bahamut can only Venge 1. The other throws a rock for 1 trillion damage (reflex save for half).

Bahamut doesn't have evasion.

Get the idea? 500 billion damage still goes through.

The build involves a 4 legged template, modified with a subtemplate, a ring of major spellstoring with the 9th level wu jen spell for enlargement, the feat that doubles carrying capacity, all the strength boost items you can get, enough mental boost to get your mentals to around 25, some wine that boosts strength and saps mental stats, the hulking hurler ability overburdened heave, the one that gives your attack a reflex save for half, and a spell that shrinks a weapon, by D&D doubling, reducing the weight by a factor of 4,000 (encumbrance and size to weight ratios are one of the few areas where the D&D "2 doublings = a tripling" does not apply). That spell also returns the object to normal size when it leaves your grasp. So you take this rock, at weight for a 4 legged colossal creature with over 80 strength, and you multiply the weight by 4000. That's the weight of the object when it hits. Now, using the weight to damage ratios in Complete Warrior, I believe, you get a +1d6 for every 200 pounds over a specific weight.

80 strength has a medium load of the same as 20 (266 lb) x 4^6, or 4096. That's 1,089,536 pounds. That number is x24 for colossal quadrupeds. That's now 26,148,864 pounds. Now multiply that by 4,000, for the item weight multiplication. 104,595,456,000 pounds. Assuming the 1d6/200 pounds begins at 1000 pounds (I don't have books handy), That's the total there, minus 1,000 pounds, and divided by 200. So, bonus dice for damage, not including the first 1,000 pounds, which is only 4-5d6 anyway, is 522,977,275d6, plus 35Str, plus max power attack with power throw, using 2 handed throwing for 1 for 2, for +36 more damage. Average damage should be 1,830,420,533.5. Can't recall how they got it higher on wizards forums, but it's all laid out over there. Still, that there is almost a billion damage on a PASSED save.

[Aquillion]

I did, most of it.

You'll also notice that there is a word in all capitals in my post too...Which throws out most of those ideas. If not all.

So what im speaking of...Is a hypothetical situation on the prime plane, in a 1 on 1 battle. And the sorc levels on that immaginary characters are mainly for the will save & a blaster type. No gating & Prismatic dragon cheese.

Read the post. *wink*

EDIT: WTF is "Pun-pun"?Well, there is the unbounded-damage halfling-punch trick. Although I would still argue that that simply causes the game to "hang" instead, per RAW, since you are never allowed to stop rolling dice without a DM fiat otherwise. But either way, Bahamut is effectively dead.

You have to hit him for it to work, though...

You might be able to do it with Leadership cheese, too, to indirectly access cheese from another class... although that isn't a 1-on-1 battle.

Actually, what about psychological tricks? Bahamut has all those high stats, but looking at the description, his alignment is "lawful stupid" no matter what his stats say.


Bahamut has always been a kindly and righteous soul, loving all that is good. He is compassionate and highly respected for his great wisdom. He has nearly limitless compassion for the weak, downtrodden, unloved, and the helpless. He forgives easily, yet has no tolerance for evil in any form.


My character is a level 1 commoner 10-year-old little girl with a lame leg and a terminal illness, blind in one eye and nearly blind in the other, who desperately needs a medicine that can only be made from Bahamut's heart (which must be obtained via Bahamut's actual, permanent death from which he never comes back ever). I ask him to kill himself for me and he obliges (or, more properly, he detects that I need his heart 17 weeks in advance and promptly delivers it to me.)


Bahamut would rather not fight personally, believing that others should fight battles- not for reasons of honor, although that is important, but rather so that they may become stronger, and able to themselves defend others.

However, he will offer protection to those who seek it and have cause. When possible, he will ask his friends, or the friends of his friends, to offer the protection, but when the danger is too great even for them, he will step in personally.

Valiant and courageous, if the need arises, Bahamut will target the strongest foes first. Once the battle has reached a stage that he believes could be handled by someone weaker, he will step back and allow them to have the rest of the glory. My character is a little orphan boy who is about to be attacked by the infinity + 1 dragon, who is just like Bahamut except evil and one point higher in all respects. I pray to Bahamut for protection with my last breath, and Bahamut arrives (17 weeks in advance), even though this is detected by the evil dragon 18 weeks in advance and it is a fight Bahamut cannot possibly win. Bahamut dies.

...am I the only one who finds reading it a bit cringe-inducing? No offense in case the person who wrote it happens to be here, reading this forum, but it reads like some 12-year-old's self-insertion DBZ character. This is part of the reason why I have no qualms about using absurd cheese to splatter it all over the walls, but still.


Furthermore, his divine power is not derived from worship at all- he is self existant and self powerful, needing no one to even remember his name to retain his full potential. Instead, his divine energies were syphoned from the universe itself over the course of his many eons of life.

His scales are more than perfect mirrors, reflecting every nuance of those who gaze into them, right down to their very souls. He glows even in the dimmest light, seeming to amplify any thing that is good. His cat-like eyes are stark blue, varying in hue from the icy-cold indigo of a glacier, to the deep azure or cerulean glow of the sky. In the center of his forhead is a long, spiral horn resembling that of a unicorn's.
However, the specifics of what his friends accomplish are also hidden from sight or lost to time, or perhaps instead are so established that people might believe that things were always this way, and would scoff to think that the wonderful things in their life were made available because of the efforts of Bahamut.I propose a new challenge: Bahamut vs. Dominic Deegan. Whoever loses... we win.

[RedShift zX]

As far as DBZ levels go...I think you start to hit that level of stupid once you can automatic still, silent, & quickened Meteor Swarm 3 times in one round....So around the mid 40's for caster? lol...Melee classes is around 70-80 I think.

[Weiser_Cain]

No there is a Hulk hurler build that gets over 1 trillion damage. Wizard dominates two of those. Bahamut can only Venge 1. The other throws a rock for 1 trillion damage (reflex save for half).

Bahamut doesn't have evasion.

Get the idea? 500 billion damage still goes through.

What's to stop him from creating a Divine Epic spell that turns anyone that slays Bahamut into a avatar of Bahumut with a fort or will save (whichever is smaller) well beyond mortal means (DC = Dragon God)?
Also if this isn't on him plane it doesn't count, He's going to come back and if he's really tiffed destroy your soul.

[Quorothorn]

This is under deity rules in the SRD. So, Bahamut, whose portofolio includes dragons and he is a dragon himself, automatically senses any event involving dragons (and thus himself) seventeen weeks before it happens. He also knows where the event will happen. Once he notices the event (and he will), he can use his remote sensing to perceive it (even if it still is 17 weeks into the future.

Hmmm...if he senses something (say, his death at the hands of uber-cheese) 17 weeks before it happens, doesn't that mean that he can't do anything to prevent it? Because it's going to happen, he sensed it, and divine future-sensing does not lie: from his perspective it's effectively already happened.

Bahamut's portfolio-sense does not protect him. :smallamused:

[Captain van der Decken]

Well obviously Bahamut just senses the failed attempt on his life and his retaliation. :smalltongue:

If he decides to make a pre-emptive strike, 17 weeks prior, given that he still comes under his own portfolio, does he know that he'll make a pre-emptive strike against you 34 weeks before you attack him (and thus possibly make a pre-emptive strike even earlier)? Does he know he'll know he'll make a pre-emptive strike against your attack 51 weeks before you attack him, and so on?

It depends how much information portfolio sense gives, I guess.

[Weiser_Cain]

DnD gods aren't infallible, just ridiculously, overwhelmingly powerful.

[Quorothorn]

Well obviously Bahamut just senses the failed attempt on his life and his retaliation. :smalltongue:

If he decides to make a pre-emptive strike, 17 weeks prior, given that he still comes under his own portfolio, does he know that he'll make a pre-emptive strike against you 34 weeks before you attack him (and thus possibly make a pre-emptive strike even earlier)? Does he know he'll know he'll make a pre-emptive strike against your attack 51 weeks before you attack him, and so on?

It depends how much information portfolio sense gives, I guess.

And that is one reason why future-sensing powers fail horribly in my view.:smallsmile:

[Weiser_Cain]

They're good for AC bonuses this just being an extreme example...

[Khanderas]

DnD gods aren't infallible, just ridiculously, overwhelmingly powerful.
Shouldn't they be ?
Because I find it worse to have a rediculously powerful spellcaster, who starts killing kobolds on new years day, ogres around easter and gods around christmas.

[AslanCross]

An aside. Can anyone link me to the Hulking Hurler build? I never saw how it can reach arbitrarily high amounts of damage.

[Weiser_Cain]

Shouldn't they be ?
Because I find it worse to have a rediculously powerful spellcaster, who starts killing kobolds on new years day, ogres around easter and gods around christmas.

It should take a little longer than that but over a magically extended lifetime you should be able to challenge a (very) minor deity and thumb you nose at all but direct intervention by the gods. At least in my book (on sale in 2010!).

[Eldritch_Ent]

In the end, possibly the most important factor IS just how much information the portfolio sense gives. It's clear that if the Deity "remote senses" the event further, he'd immediately realized what was up. The trick would be doing it so he somehow doesn't take it seriously. In the end, it's how much information he gets that's important. There's a big difference between "Attacks you" and "Ports in an army of prismatic wyrms to attack you", or "Starts planning" and "Starts a completely hopeless/incredibly brilliant plan".

Of course, being a deity he probably remote senses all plans to kill him, on the of chance any are good. And of course he'll probably remote sense attacks, and he'll DEFINITELY remote sense his own death. Either way, he'll have 17 weeks (or more) to prepare, and this can range between simply having an Avatar in his holy plane that day to countering with Divine, artifact-fueled Epic spellcasting cheese, or acquiring/creating a "Prismatic Dragon Orb" to instead have your army do HIS bidding.

Especially if his portfolio sense gives him lines like "Tipton the Gnomish Wizard begins his ascent to power today which will eventually lead to your death" or "Tipton, the wizard with an army of prismatic dragons, will decide to kill you."...

[Weiser_Cain]

Might I recommend the orphan backpack™ to shield you from holy strikes out of the blue?

[Dan_Hemmens]

Shouldn't they be ?
Because I find it worse to have a rediculously powerful spellcaster, who starts killing kobolds on new years day, ogres around easter and gods around christmas.

How is that a problem with Gods not being powerful enough, instead of a problem with casters being too powerful. The guy's still destroying cities in summer and nations by late October.

[Weiser_Cain]

How is that a problem with Gods not being powerful enough, instead of a problem with casters being too powerful. The guy's still destroying cities in summer and nations by late October.

Not true, there are presumably other spellcasters to stop you, and unexpected knives in the dark night of remain remarkably effective no matter how many fireballs you have prepared.

[Illiterate Scribe]

lol at the Bahamut = Mary Sue.


Well obviously Bahamut just senses the failed attempt on his life and his retaliation. :smalltongue:

If he decides to make a pre-emptive strike, 17 weeks prior, given that he still comes under his own portfolio, does he know that he'll make a pre-emptive strike against you 34 weeks before you attack him (and thus possibly make a pre-emptive strike even earlier)? Does he know he'll know he'll make a pre-emptive strike against your attack 51 weeks before you attack him, and so on?

It depends how much information portfolio sense gives, I guess.

Also, at what point does this become Minority Report; is it a good act to just start slaughtering random good wizards, psions, and archivists, and then, when Heironeous comes a knockin', will he accept that 'oh, trust me, my portfolio sense tells me that these good guys are going to turn evil and kill me!'


An aside. Can anyone link me to the Hulking Hurler build? I never saw how it can reach arbitrarily high amounts of damage.

I give you the pinnacle of optimisation - the campaign smashers thread. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897351)


What's to stop him from creating a Divine Epic spell that turns anyone that slays Bahamut into a avatar of Bahumut with a fort or will save (whichever is smaller) well beyond mortal means (DC = Dragon God)?

If it is possible to create an epic spell that gives you divine ranks, you've just handed Tippy all of the ammunition that he needs to rule the material plane.


Also if this isn't on him plane it doesn't count, He's going to come back and if he's really tiffed destroy your soul.

That's why we destroy his soul first, with unname.

[Aquillion]

and unexpected knives in the dark night of remain remarkably effective no matter how many fireballs you have prepared.But not if you have Contingency and Quickened Teleports and Celerity and Foresight prepared / in effect.

[Burley]

Okay. Wish/Miracle and request that Bahamut be reverted back into a frestly-laid egg. Make an omelet.
I read once, somewhere that you probably didn't know about, that if you consume the yolk of a Dragon God's egg, scrambled with bacon, peppers and 50gp worth of crushed diamond and pepper, you gain enough EXP to reach your next level.

[Chronos]

An aside. Can anyone link me to the Hulking Hurler build? I never saw how it can reach arbitrarily high amounts of damage.The Hulking Hurler does not reach arbitrarily high amounts of damage. Its damage is strictly finite and bounded (well, barring infinite loops to increase Strength, but that's a separate exploit); it's just that the bound is very, very large. The basic idea is that a HH can throw a rock up to the limits of his heavy-load carrying capacity, and the rock's damage is proportional to its weight. Heavy-load carrying capacity scales exponentially with strength, so if you can boost your strength stupidly high, you can get damage which grows very quickly. From there, it's just a question of how many tricks you can pull to increase your strength by as much as possible.

[AslanCross]

The Hulking Hurler does not reach arbitrarily high amounts of damage. Its damage is strictly finite and bounded (well, barring infinite loops to increase Strength, but that's a separate exploit); it's just that the bound is very, very large. The basic idea is that a HH can throw a rock up to the limits of his heavy-load carrying capacity, and the rock's damage is proportional to its weight. Heavy-load carrying capacity scales exponentially with strength, so if you can boost your strength stupidly high, you can get damage which grows very quickly. From there, it's just a question of how many tricks you can pull to increase your strength by as much as possible.

Ah, thanks. I tried the link that was posted earlier but it was down for system maintenance. I just used to snicker at the Hulking Hurler's class feature names. ("Really Throw Anything?" "Like. REALLY. THROW. ANYTHING.")

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Anyone want to actually try their plans against someone playing Bahamut up to his intelligence? Just to see if those plans are viable when Bahamut is not sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Anyone want to actually try their plans against someone playing Bahamut up to his intelligence? Just to see if those plans are viable when Bahamut is not sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

Well, it depends what he's doing. The quintessence blob tactic would work against him regardless of what spells he spammed, etc. If however, he's using his portfolio-sense-from-minority-report-in-ways-that-break-causation-and-quite-possibly-alignment-breaking-ways, and is using the same tactics against us, then of course he'll win, because he'll simply chain-gate his own minions.

[Aquillion]

Anyone want to actually try their plans against someone playing Bahamut up to his intelligence? Just to see if those plans are viable when Bahamut is not sitting there doing absolutely nothing.Lawful stupid again. We're free to make paranoid Batman-wizards as much as we want; but Bahamut's personality is right down on paper, and he's definitely not the cowardly, cautious, hide-in-home-plane-and-use-every-defense type.

He is, in fact, required to let other, weaker people fight us as long as we're weak; then, when we're tough enough to provide a viable challenge, he's required to attack the strongest enemy in a fight, according to his description (which is part of the reason Ice Assassin tricks work so well on him.) No exception is made for future threats; as long as we're weak enough for anyone else to handle, his description implies that he will ignore us and let other people take care of it, since otherwise they wouldn't be able to learn (or whatever. It's a really lawful stupid description.)

Incidently, that also serves as an answer to the advantages his home plane gives him: Look at his personality. He's basically required to answer if he gets credibly called out, even if that means he's giving up advantages.

His intelligence score doesn't help him. As described, he's still stupid.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Lawful stupid again. We're free to make paranoid Batman-wizards as much as we want; but Bahamut's personality is right down on paper, and he's definitely not the cowardly, cautious, hide-in-home-plane-and-use-every-defense type.

He is, in fact, required to let other, weaker people fight us as long as we're weak; then, when we're tough enough to provide a viable challenge, he's required to attack the strongest enemy in a fight, according to his description (which is part of the reason Ice Assassin tricks work so well on him.) No exception is made for future threats; as long as we're weak enough for anyone else to handle, his description implies that he will ignore us and let other people take care of it, since otherwise they wouldn't be able to learn (or whatever. It's a really lawful stupid description.)

Incidently, that also serves as an answer to the advantages his home plane gives him: Look at his personality. He's basically required to answer if he gets credibly called out, even if that means he's giving up advantages.

His intelligence score doesn't help him. As described, he's still stupid.

Damn, he is actually Aslan.

[Renegade Paladin]

Untrue. Saving throws don't auto-succeed on a 20.
What? Yes they do; what rules have you been reading? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm) :smallconfused:

[Dan_Hemmens]

Anyone want to actually try their plans against someone playing Bahamut up to his intelligence? Just to see if those plans are viable when Bahamut is not sitting there doing absolutely nothing.

Nine times out of ten, when somebody talks about "playing an NPC up to his intelligence" they mean "arbitrarily hosing the players".

[Renegade Paladin]

Nine times out of ten, when somebody talks about "playing an NPC up to his intelligence" they mean "arbitrarily hosing the players".
And if a player of a 20th level character is seriously trying to cheese his way into deicide? He deserves to get hosed.

[Dan_Hemmens]

And if a player of a 20th level character is seriously trying to cheese his way into deicide? He deserves to get hosed.

It's a thought experiment. The point is that no thought experiment works if you assume that the subject of the experiment will infallibly counter your every move.

[blacksabre]

Can't be done.

probablably been said already..But with his ability to know 17 weeks into the future regarding his portfolio, and his own demise and how it effects his minions and worshipers applies here, he would know when the pending attack would come. His divinations would tell him all he needs to know about the who what when where etc etc..

It doesn't matter if the attacker is in some time stopped dimension prior to the attack, the diety would know of the attack because of the effects it would have in the future..

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Lawful stupid again. We're free to make paranoid Batman-wizards as much as we want; but Bahamut's personality is right down on paper, and he's definitely not the cowardly, cautious, hide-in-home-plane-and-use-every-defense type.

He is, in fact, required to let other, weaker people fight us as long as we're weak; then, when we're tough enough to provide a viable challenge, he's required to attack the strongest enemy in a fight, according to his description (which is part of the reason Ice Assassin tricks work so well on him.) No exception is made for future threats; as long as we're weak enough for anyone else to handle, his description implies that he will ignore us and let other people take care of it, since otherwise they wouldn't be able to learn (or whatever. It's a really lawful stupid description.)

Incidently, that also serves as an answer to the advantages his home plane gives him: Look at his personality. He's basically required to answer if he gets credibly called out, even if that means he's giving up advantages.

His intelligence score doesn't help him. As described, he's still stupid.
He is not cowardly and he will definitely not hide in his home plane-but being in perpetual war with other evil deities, he expects at any time to defend himself from the likes of Tiamat and her evil immortal allies if they try to pull off a surprise attack.
In addition, yes, he will not deal with a lesser threat directly even though he sensed that threat ahead of time. But he's not going to just sit and do nothing while the lesser threat gets bigger. He is going to observe the treat (remote sensing, you know) and learn the threat's weaknesses so when that threat does come up, he's going to know how to stop it.
Against Ice Assasins, Purge Illusion. Like invisibility purge-only affects all illusions automatically. And Ice Assasins are illusions.
Finally, he is smart enough to observe the situation before being called with remote sensing-he's not going to fall for a trap. Or, if he HAS to go there, he is smart enough to send forth an Eidolon, Simulacrum or illusion of himself to set off the trap.

[Cuddly]

I'm curious; why does the Wizard have perfect knowledge against Bahamut, yet Bahamut is assumed to know nothing of the wizards tricks? He has +145 to several useful knowledge skills, and quite high spellcraft. His intelligence and wisdom are also very, very high. 64 wisdom is... it's a lot. Bahamut percieves things that even level 20 characters wouldn't be able to comprehend.

Drrr, use Ice Assassin!!
You think in 2 to 4 million years, the god of good dragons isn't on to that trick?

A level 20 wizard has no chance, barring Tippy level cheese (which introduces a whole other set of problems; namely, in the millions of years of the multiverse, why hasn't this rule abuse already occurred?), doesn't really stand a chance.

But if you want to run this like Bahamut is just a collection of big, stupid numbers, as the OP wants to, then it may be possible.

If you can somehow get past all of Bahamut's defenses, you have perfect knowledge of Bahamut, and for some reason Bahamut never casts defensive spells on himself, or has any knowledge of his own weaknesses.

[nhbdy]

I don't know if anyone stated this, i haven't had time to read through this yet, but "I wish bahamut was dead!"

[Chronos]

I don't know if anyone stated this, i haven't had time to read through this yet, but "I wish bahamut was dead!"Where do people get the idea that this would work? In Second Edition, "I wish so-and-so were dead" was one of the few things specifically called out as something Wish couldn't do, and in 3rd, the best that could do would be to simulate a Finger of Death spell or the like (which, needless to say, isn't likely to do much to Bahamut).

[Weiser_Cain]

Would a wizard know all these tweaks and loopholes in character? At lvl 20?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

He has 34 int by that point, so probably.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Would a wizard know all these tweaks and loopholes in character? At lvl 20?

He has 34 int by that point, so probably.
Actually a character, regardless of his intelligence, would specifically not know of rules loopholes, even if he was the Omniscificer (a lvl 4 artificer with infinite knowledge checks).

Why? Because the mechanical rules of the game are strictly player knowledge-e.g. a character will NEVER know that a fireball does 10d6 damage. He will know however that a fireball does enough damage to knock out a troll more often than not.

The above is specifically stated in many parts of the PHB, DMG and the like. Characters never have knowledge of OOC concepts such as HD, levels, BAB and so on.

[Quorothorn]

Actually a character, regardless of his intelligence, would specifically not know of rules loopholes, even if he was the Omniscificer (a lvl 4 artificer with infinite knowledge checks).

Why? Because the mechanical rules of the game are strictly player knowledge-e.g. a character will NEVER know that a fireball does 10d6 damage. He will know however that a fireball does enough damage to knock out a troll more often than not.

The above is specifically stated in many parts of the PHB, DMG and the like. Characters never have knowledge of OOC concepts such as HD, levels, BAB and so on.

...Except in OotS-world.

[GoC]

Except that as a multimillion year old epic caster, you've already seen everything the char-op board came up with, probably twice. Anything the char op can do, a major deity can also do, except easier and faster.

I mean, as an epic caster, the Platinum Dragon already wins. Everything you bring up, Bahamut can already do, if he hasn't already.

This is untrue otherwise his stats would include infinite actions per round, infinite hp, infinite divine ranks, all Su and Ex abilities, ect.
As it doesn't we can safely conclude that Bahamut doesn't know everything the charop boards do.

[Patashu]

Actually a character, regardless of his intelligence, would specifically not know of rules loopholes, even if he was the Omniscificer (a lvl 4 artificer with infinite knowledge checks).

Why? Because the mechanical rules of the game are strictly player knowledge-e.g. a character will NEVER know that a fireball does 10d6 damage. He will know however that a fireball does enough damage to knock out a troll more often than not.

The above is specifically stated in many parts of the PHB, DMG and the like. Characters never have knowledge of OOC concepts such as HD, levels, BAB and so on.

Do characters in the D&D world not know of the scientific method? A sufficiently determined wizard could, indeed, find out that HP is a quantized amount; once you can deduce and determine things that have fixed HP and do fixed damage you could go a long way towards determining how much damage things do and how much HP things have.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Do characters in the D&D world not know of the scientific method? A sufficiently determined wizard could, indeed, find out that HP is a quantized amount; once you can deduce and determine things that have fixed HP and do fixed damage you could go a long way towards determining how much damage things do and how much HP things have.

That is the point. The rules of the game are abstract, arbitrary rules saying what should happen in the game world. They are not the actual natural and magical laws that exist IC and, as such, the scientific method would not help.

[Patashu]

That is the point. The rules of the game are abstract, arbitrary rules saying what should happen in the game world. They are not the actual natural and magical laws that exist IC and, as such, the scientific method would not help.

Approximations of the D&D universe ey? Then they might well be the first model a D&D scientist would come up with. ;)

Just as our universe is governed by physical laws, so is there's. These laws are observable from within the system and thus can be empirically determined. If the rules provided in the D&D documentations approximate or even are these laws then it isn't such a long shot, humourous as the notion may be, that a D&D scientist would (discover? invent?) these laws from his observations. Not after some failed models and attempts, of course.

[Chronos]

In fact, a game-world scientist would have a much easier time of it than a scientist in our world, since the laws which govern the game world are so much simpler. Feynmann once likened the task of the fundamental physicist to trying to determine all of the rules of chess by just watching the four squares nearest one corner of the board, over many games. The 30-int wizard has a lot more to work with than that.

[turkishproverb]

If it is possible to create an epic spell that gives you divine ranks, you've just handed Tippy all of the ammunition that he needs to rule the material plane.


Priceless.

Sigged.

giving a guy free divine rank. hehee

[Weiser_Cain]

This is untrue otherwise his stats would include infinite actions per round, infinite hp, infinite divine ranks, all Su and Ex abilities, ect.
As it doesn't we can safely conclude that Bahamut doesn't know everything the charop boards do.

He might not have infinite actions but he does have followers, lots of followers both martial, and both flavors of spellcasting (psionics if the dm allows).