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Jack Zander
2008-02-16, 05:12 PM
I know that one of the major points WotC is promoting with 4th Ed. is that you can play it with a circle of laptops. What exactly will you do with the laptops? Is it simply a die roller program and an SRD? Or is it a full computer game to simulate DnD where the DM controls everything?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-16, 05:14 PM
If well done, the last one could make PbP SO much easier.

Draz74
2008-02-16, 05:18 PM
I think it's a die roller, a keep-track-of-HP-and-similar-variables counter, and a battlemap &grid (possibly with special terrain tiles, even). I don't think it's going to go far beyond that.

But we don't really know, yet.

Edit: Oh yeah, they did say it would also support talking (not typing) to one another for over-the-internet play (provide your own microphone, of course).

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-16, 05:18 PM
PbP will always be tricky. Try RPtools for internet fun.

As far as the last option is concerned... Never Winter Nights.

I prefer to use my imagination though... its often much cooler that way.

Yakk
2008-02-16, 05:21 PM
I've seen demos of computerized maps and miniatures.

Artanis
2008-02-16, 05:31 PM
From what little I've seen of it, it looked like an overglorified OpenRPG.

Jack Zander
2008-02-16, 05:31 PM
Well if it ends up an entire DnD program, then I guess 4th Edition really will be more like a video game than a roleplaying game.

Artanis
2008-02-16, 05:35 PM
Well if it ends up an entire DnD program, then I guess 4th Edition really will be more like a video game than a roleplaying game.
Which is why it won't end up like that.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-16, 05:51 PM
Donnae be so sure. I remember seeing a pic of the computerized 4th ed. that looked like a MMORPG clone.

horseboy
2008-02-16, 05:53 PM
It's not to sit around the table with a bunch of lap tops. It's so you can still play with one friend who' gone off out of state to college, a second friend that's on the other side of the planet on a Navy ship, a third that moved away years ago and you, with your car broken down. It's still perfectly playable without the internet.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-16, 05:55 PM
Donnae be so sure. I remember seeing a pic of the computerized 4th ed. that looked like a MMORPG clone.

Possibly that's because most MMORPGs are D&D clones?

Newtkeeper
2008-02-16, 06:03 PM
Possibly that's because most MMORPGs are D&D clones?

Aye, but with a difference. They don't require any imagination. Call me old fashioned, but I think anything that takes away the need to imagine in RPGs is Bad Wrong Fun(TM).

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-16, 06:07 PM
Aye, but with a difference. They don't require any imagination. Call me old fashioned, but I think anything that takes away the need to imagine in RPGs is Bad Wrong Fun(TM).

Don't confuse "imagination" with "visualization".

Speaking personally, I don't think that the simple act of visualizing something requires terribly much imagination. Yeah, I can visualize what a Red Dragon looks like. It looks like the picture of the red dragon in the box. What requires imagination is bringing your character to life, making them feel like a real person.

Tura
2008-02-16, 06:14 PM
I'm not following this very closely, so there may have been updates. But the first announcements indicated that the software would have the following features:

1) Independent. That is, you can still play with pen and paper without needing it to run the game.
2) LAN or internet based. Whatever the DM (or player, when appropriate) changes on his program will be accessible by all.
3) Calculator. It adds every applicable bonus etc, has a dice roller, but (IIRC) the DM can still fumble the dice.
4) Grid/Map generator. Keeps track of movement, and has customizable "miniatures", characters and monsters and NPCs. You can see those move from above, or you can choose eye-level camera.
5) Optionally, a monthly subscription. When a new splatbook is published, you can update the software to include the new content.

My opinion?
Useful, certainly. Not needed, fundamental! Makes my life easier, potentially. But the part that really annoys me is the simulation, the one that reminds you of computer games. Oh, I know how many hours have been spent on arguing about silly things like "hey, I was in that square - no you weren't" or "you didn't say it had three heads - you didn't ask" etc.. But this is an inconvenience I will gladly, wholeheartedly accept, because it goes hand in hand with the best feature of RPGs: the Use Of Your Imagination. Take that away from me, and I lose all interest in the game.

Of course, nobody says you have to use the simulator. You can use the software as a glorified calculator and save a lot of time. That's cool. There are many other programs that do exactly that right now, but they have a major problem. They include core and some other sources. Anything new that comes out has to be customized, and that's a hassle. 4E solves that (for a fee...)

In short: if you play a lot, if you want a wide variety of splatbooks to juggle with, if you don't use too much homebrewd stuff and if you don't mind paying, it's a great asset. (Assuming it will be stable and precise, of course). Otherwise... I suggest sticking to pen and paper.

As for PbPs, that's another thing altogether, at least for me. The medium defines the content. Having all the time in the world to write your post means that "think fast or face the consequences" situations are out. But it also means that you can add the best features of freeform (make a damn good story, collectively) with the strict -but necessary- rules of DnD. Again, that's just how it works for me.:smallsmile:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-16, 06:26 PM
The biggest advantage of PbP is this one: You can become the Lord of Lords through underwater basket weaving if you do a good enough post, and the only way the DM can stop you will make him look like such an ******* all the players will quit.

Zincorium
2008-02-16, 07:31 PM
The biggest advantage of PbP is this one: You can become the Lord of Lords through underwater basket weaving if you do a good enough post, and the only way the DM can stop you will make him look like such an ******* all the players will quit.

I've never seen a player quit due to the phrase "You're just being silly, please play something more in line with the game."

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-16, 07:39 PM
Because you 'avent seen a player do a post that made him/her Lord of Lords through Underwater basket weaving and was as amazing as the legendary FATAL review. Doing anything else but submitting and handing the "I win" trophy to the player would be foul play.

Jayngfet
2008-02-16, 07:44 PM
to be honest the computerised it the one thing I like about 4.0(meaning dispite this there will be no conversion), no spending huge sums because you don't have enough goblins, or having to make your own to get things right(dinner plate fora base, the sheer size of the thing makes players weep)

Artanis
2008-02-16, 08:34 PM
Donnae be so sure. I remember seeing a pic of the computerized 4th ed. that looked like a MMORPG clone.
If I'm thinking of the same pic (or something similar), it looked to me like mediocre-at-best 3D tacked on to a chat interface. Kinda like (as I said) an overglorified OpenRPG would look like...namely if they got some kid fresh out of ITT Tech to give it a few shiny bits.

JadedDM
2008-02-16, 10:12 PM
From what little I've seen of it, it looked like an overglorified OpenRPG, that requires a monthly fee.

Fixed that for you, pal. :smallcool:

Zincorium
2008-02-16, 10:14 PM
In all fairness, that monthly fee also gets you access to the online version of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. And supposedly will automatically download errata'd versions of your PDFs.

huttj509
2008-02-16, 11:25 PM
From what I've seen, including the podcast that discussed it, here's at least large chunks of what it is.

First off, it is multiple things, which may or may not be linked by the same fees.

1) A character generator aid. Input your stats (maybe roll them there), pick your feats and powers, it helps you keep track of things. If you have the necessary books and have registered them online, it will give you the full feat/power descriptions, otherwise, it will give you the name and a book/page number reference. This also lets you set the look of your character (the character viewer screen looked like a character select screen from some MMORPGs, may cause some of the confusion), this can probably be imported into:

2) An online gaming table. This is your kitchen table, online, for people who cannot get around one. It has a battlemap to lay out the players/monsters, a die roller (which the DM can fudge his rolls if he likes, but the players cannot), and that is all, except possibly more details on the battlemap (elevation, etc.). It does NOT adjucate the rules for you. This was confirmed. It will not say "You cannot move there", it lets the DM say that. It will not say you hit or miss, the DM says that. It might take the info from #1 for say, an attack roll modifier, but I doubt it. When you roll, it doesn't know what you're rolling except the type of die to the best of my knowledge. If you don't want to use the battlemap, you can just use the voice chat to communicate, or not. The shots I saw of this are in perspective view 3D style, so may be the cause of more of the "It's a video game" confusion.

3) Online access to Dragon (and Dungeon?), I think this will have a monthly subscription, I do not know if the others will, if all are together, or what.

4) Online access to books you have bought and registered online. Part of this is full text feat/power descriptions in 1), but you can also access the text.

Reinboom
2008-02-16, 11:45 PM
If well done, the last one could make PbP SO much easier.

If you need something like this to make your life easier. Read...


From what little I've seen of it, it looked like an overglorified OpenRPG.

Why not mean an overglorified MapTools (http://rptools.net/), which, doesn't have the constant errors of OpenRPG, and looks and feels a lot cleaner? (as well as staying free)

Also, an autoupdating character generating aid will be lovely... I just wonder what happens with 2nd hand books.

Rutee
2008-02-17, 12:38 AM
A lotta stuffHm. That seems pretty harmless then. I know there was.. some sorta problem that I foresaw with the growing interconnection between 4e and the intertubes, but.. I can't remember it and nobody here's addressed it, so I'm stuck trying to figure it out.

nobodylovesyou4
2008-02-17, 01:06 AM
It's not to sit around the table with a bunch of lap tops. It's so you can still play with one friend who' gone off out of state to college, a second friend that's on the other side of the planet on a Navy ship, a third that moved away years ago and you, with your car broken down. It's still perfectly playable without the internet.

scarily enough, youve just described my party in a few short years ><

on topic, everyone sitting around the table typing at each other is really draining the fun out of DnD. thats something that should be reserved for world of warcraft, and let DnD have its yelling and screaming like it usually does.

nobodylovesyou4
2008-02-17, 01:06 AM
It's not to sit around the table with a bunch of lap tops. It's so you can still play with one friend who' gone off out of state to college, a second friend that's on the other side of the planet on a Navy ship, a third that moved away years ago and you, with your car broken down. It's still perfectly playable without the internet.

scarily enough, youve just described my party in a few short years ><

on topic, everyone sitting around the table typing at each other is really draining the fun out of DnD. thats something that should be reserved for world of warcraft, and let DnD have its yelling and screaming like it usually does.

Thanatos 51-50
2008-02-17, 01:41 AM
From what I've seen, including the podcast that discussed it, here's at least large chunks of what it is.

First off, it is multiple things, which may or may not be linked by the same fees.

1) A character generator aid. Input your stats (maybe roll them there), pick your feats and powers, it helps you keep track of things. If you have the necessary books and have registered them online, it will give you the full feat/power descriptions, otherwise, it will give you the name and a book/page number reference. This also lets you set the look of your character (the character viewer screen looked like a character select screen from some MMORPGs, may cause some of the confusion), this can probably be imported into:

Completely harmelss and helpful, I'm pretty sure it will also have a search feature so you can look up, for example, the TWF tree by typing in "two weapon Fighting".


2) An online gaming table. This is your kitchen table, online, for people who cannot get around one. It has a battlemap to lay out the players/monsters, a die roller (which the DM can fudge his rolls if he likes, but the players cannot), and that is all, except possibly more details on the battlemap (elevation, etc.). It does NOT adjucate the rules for you. This was confirmed. It will not say "You cannot move there", it lets the DM say that. It will not say you hit or miss, the DM says that. It might take the info from #1 for say, an attack roll modifier, but I doubt it. When you roll, it doesn't know what you're rolling except the type of die to the best of my knowledge. If you don't want to use the battlemap, you can just use the voice chat to communicate, or not. The shots I saw of this are in perspective view 3D style, so may be the cause of more of the "It's a video game" confusion.

Yes! Basically, as I see it, a SuperPbP. Or MSN/AIM RP'ing Evolved. Wizard's including the battlemap in the program is just icing. Do people actually use those, anyway? When in doubt, I use graph paper. And a pencil. Imagine that.


3) Online access to Dragon (and Dungeon?), I think this will have a monthly subscription, I do not know if the others will, if all are together, or what.

Probably if you CHOOSE to pay the moonthly fee, and only if you CHOOSE to (and people will choose to).


4) Online access to books you have bought and registered online. Part of this is full text feat/power descriptions in 1), but you can also access the text.

This is kinda conflicting with the "Monthly Fee lets you autobuy books." Thing floating around this very thread, but only kinda. And that monthlt fee, which autobuys PDFs of your boks would be extraemely helpful for individuals like myself who have to order books through Amazon and don't hear about new ones (I've yet to lay eyes on the ToB, for example).

In conclusion - I see no problem with it, at all. Whats with all the fuss?

Gralamin
2008-02-17, 01:50 AM
*snip*
From what I've heard (Mostly from the preview videos), you receive all the benefits for the same price (that being Dungeon+Dragon, Battlemap, Character Generator, DM Tools, etc) which should be about $15 a month.

The online access to the books comes at a modest fee, and allows you to use them with the program. Their may also be options to "share" books with the rest of your group.

Jack Zander
2008-02-17, 05:45 AM
Couldn't you wait a few months, then pay the subscription fee, download all the books, then cancel? Repeat as needed.

Reinboom
2008-02-17, 06:13 AM
Couldn't you wait a few months, then pay the subscription fee, download all the books, then cancel? Repeat as needed.

No, the reports are saying that, you purchase a print copy of the book, there is a special code in it.
Then you spend an extra dollar online to get a virtual version.

So, unless you want to throw a lot of money at buying the print copies at the books every few months, I don't think that'd be wise.

Ecalsneerg
2008-02-17, 06:36 AM
Tura and huttj509 speak truth.

Seriously, people have been playing D&D online for years. All of a suden WotC starts suppoting it and you're all screaming "WORLD OF WARCRAFT! ABORT! ABORT! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!". Yeah, maybe it's expensive, but nobody's forcing you to use it.

warmachine
2008-02-17, 06:50 AM
I remember WotC's presentation at GenCon UK. It just looked like a virtual battle grid with some automation. Essentially, it's just online play so you can still play if you're in another country. They emphasised that 4e is still a pencil-and-paper RPG.

Jokes
2008-02-17, 07:13 AM
I for one think this is great for a couple of reasons. One is that DnD stuff is hard to come by where I am, so getting it all online rather than driving to the nearest capital city is a plus. Also, I don't get to meet up will all my mates that often, so being able to play for half an hour every now and then is better than nothing.

Triaxx
2008-02-17, 11:30 AM
It sounds like it could be interesting. If it lets me keep an electronic copy of my characters, including spell lists and feats, that's great.

A computerized battle map, and map maker? That's great.

A character generation utilty? Fantastic.

Now, if it includes an option for homebrew additions, then I'll be happy. If not, I'm sad.

Yahzi
2008-02-17, 12:10 PM
Updating source books automatically?

I don't let Microsoft update my operating system automatically; why would I want WotC to update my game automatically?

Sheesh!

BlackStaticWolf
2008-02-17, 12:13 PM
Updating source books automatically?

I don't let Microsoft update my operating system automatically; why would I want WotC to update my game automatically?

Sheesh!

That actually sounds like something that's optional to me. My bet is that they'll allow you to update manually if you so choose.

Jack Zander
2008-02-17, 12:34 PM
I found a Link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hWZ2WdeTo1M).

Looks pretty crappy. Your character can see through and around walls within 30 feet of them (60 feet with darkvision or low-light vision). To be fair, it is a prototype, so maybe that will be fixed before it is released.

Rutee
2008-02-17, 01:18 PM
Do you really cheese LoS to the point where you don't let players see, all the time? Jeez >.>

Oh well, options to increase realism never hurt anybody.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-17, 01:48 PM
Yeah, I've got to say it doesn't seem that great. When I want to play a video game, I'll play a video game.

Not only that but I like open source software, and I'm a programmer myself. So none of this really impresses me that much. Oh yeah, and I play video games.

Monthly service charges, having to pay to use books you already own? Made of lose and suck. Especially when the books themselves are overpriced too. I'd pay $20 for a program like that, and only if it let's you add your own stuff.

Which it almost certainly won't.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-17, 01:52 PM
I've heard they'll print the books with a special ink and a wireless networking chip, so that if you don't pay your monthly dues, your physical source books go blank...

(/sarcasm)

thorgrim29
2008-02-17, 01:59 PM
I've heard they'll print the books with a special ink and a wireless networking chip, so that if you don't pay your monthly dues, your physical source books go blank...

(/sarcasm)

Yea paranoļa!

Lord Tataraus
2008-02-17, 02:24 PM
My main problem with this is if you have to pay for the online battlemap thing. I could just as easily use a free program so it just seems like a waste to me. As for the Other stuff, that's up in the air, but if I could pay less to get Dragon and Dungeon and that's it, that would be great.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-17, 03:00 PM
Of course, if this was only one part of a batch of services, it might be worth it. Like if you were really paying for a subscription to whatever ends up replacing Dragon.

Trog
2008-02-17, 04:00 PM
My understanding from seeing the unveiling at GenCon was that it was your table away from your table. You get a battle mat, counters for PCs, Monsters, etc., and a dice roller. Simple enough. I do not believe the program actually tracks any of your stats, etc. I think it is meant to merely be a substitute for your table so multiple people in different locations can play the game together. You can customize the way your PC's mini looks, attach light sources to characters, etc. I assume that they allow for either typed or verbal communication between the players as well. The prototype they showed needed a lot of work, visually. But I would expect it to look better by the time it goes live. Personally I think it's a pretty neat idea.

Jack Zander
2008-02-17, 11:15 PM
Do you really cheese LoS to the point where you don't let players see, all the time? Jeez >.>

Oh well, options to increase realism never hurt anybody.

I guess that's why we disagree so much about 4th edition. I'm interested in simulating reality while you don't give a crap for it. Nothing wrong with treating a game like a game of course, but we have two very different play styles.