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Uncle Festy
2008-02-16, 10:43 PM
Does anyone have any suggestions on good creatures to Effigy-fy?
I'm playing a Sorcerer 7/Effigy Master 2, so I'm sinking most of my wealth into Effigies. I've got standard WBL (36,000 GP), so the Effigies can't be too expensive. I'll also be carrying most of the oversized ones around in a Bag of Holding, so low weight and size are preferred.
For those of you who don't know, Effigies are construct versions of... *checks* aberrations, animals, dragons, giants, humanoids, magical beasts, monstrous humanoids, or vermin. They lose all SLAs, Su abilities, and Ex qualities whose saves are based on Con, and have none of their original SQs. Their costs are based on size and HD, so the minimization of both would be appreciated.
Thanks!

FlyMolo
2008-02-16, 11:04 PM
Things With Lots Of Arms (Tm)

Thri-keen, etcetera. If you're going to lose most of the cool stuff about a critter, exploit the ones you keep.

Yami
2008-02-16, 11:08 PM
I beleive Hydras are the most profitable.

Iku Rex
2008-02-16, 11:09 PM
Books available?

What kind of campaign is it?

Are you starting at level 9?

tyckspoon
2008-02-16, 11:19 PM
Good effigies have a lot in common with good wildshape and animal companion choices. Generally, you want melee bruisers, because the limits of the effigy template take out most other options. It's sadly difficult to minimize size; most worthwhile fighting monsters are Large or bigger.

Some suggestions:
A Medium or Large dragon, depending on how much you're able to spend. 5 (Medium) or 6 (Large) attacks, good stats, flight, and potentially useful as a mount. Available in a range of HD to suit any budget.

Dire animals. They work for Druids, they can work for you.

Hydras, as mentioned. 1 more attack for every HD you're willing to pay for. Probably the best return on investment you'll find.

For smaller and cheaper things, some of the dinosaurs or pouncing cats are pretty good, although you'll probably need to build in some extra HD in order to make them durable enough to use.

Parvum
2008-02-16, 11:40 PM
I beleive Hydras are the most profitable.

When the head is chopped off, it loses HP equal to half it's total, balanced by fast healing that the effigy would not have. Each head has total HP equal to the hydra's divided by #heads, meaning the hydra becomes progressively less useful after two heads.

Uncle Festy
2008-02-17, 09:54 AM
Books available?

What kind of campaign is it?

Are you starting at level 9?

1. All core and SRD, EPH, MM III, DrMa, RotD, Drac, WoL, PHB II, DMG II, ECS, and CAr.

2. Spelljammer setting-ish, beginning with a trip to a colony. Full info's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72617).

3. Yes. It begins at Level 9.

Useful suggestions so far:

Hydra (too weak without fast healing)
Dire Lion, a Dire Pouncing Cat, as seen in the CAr.
Thri-Keen (seems too weak for a 9th level campaign.)
Griffon, 'cus it's a flying guy that I can ride, possibly replaced with a Dragon, depending on cost.
Dinosaurs - any specific suggestions?
Things with lots of arms - any specific suggestions?

Thanks!

Shades of Gray
2008-02-17, 10:02 AM
Actually, Hydras have fast healing if they're an effigy. It's not restricted. A troglodyte's smell for example wouldn't work, but since Hydras fast healing is an (ex) ability, and not an (Su), ability, it still works!

Uncle Festy
2008-02-17, 10:28 AM
That is unfortunately incorrect. Effigies lose all special qualities. Fast Healing is such a quality.

deathbyhokie
2008-02-17, 10:29 AM
Dinosaurs - any specific suggestions?

The Fleshraker (MMIII) comes up alot, due to his obnoxious Pounce/Trip/Grapple combo, and relatively low HD. You'll lose his poison abilitiy (Con-Based), but it's really just icing on the cake anyway.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-17, 10:43 AM
So far the party looks a bit low on actual tankery (I'm playing in that game too), so that might be something to consider, too- something that can actually take a hit.

Ganurath
2008-02-17, 11:23 AM
*goes down the lists*
Abberations:
Choker: Well worth the investment with the +4 Str boost. May want to see about giving it stealth boosting gear for maximum effect.
Skum: If you're ever living the life aquatic, a fine investment.
Animals:
Nothing that hasn't already been covered.
Dragon:
Wyvern: A flier with Improved Grab is always potent for fun. And it's only 7 HD!
Giants:
Ettin: Only if it keeps Superior TWF, otherwise...
Ogre: Best violence results per HD for raw damage.
Humanoids:
Orc gives +4 Str, Githzerai gives +6 Dex, and neither have extra HD!
Magical Beasts:
Bullete: Grapple and burrow is a combination that never fails.
Girallon: Rend for 7HD!
Gray Render: Improved Grab and Rend for 10HD!
Owlbear: Improved Grab for 5HD!
Monstrous Humanoids:
Gargoyle: If there's a charger in your party, he'll appreciate support that doesn't get in his way. If there's a sneak attacker in your party, they'll appreciate support that can hold their own. A Gargoyle is both.
Minotaur: If you don't have a charger, you do now.
Sahuagin: After the template, all that's left is the raking, which is always nice.
Vermin:
Locust Swarm: Immunity to weapon damage is always a worthwhile investment.

Zim
2008-02-17, 11:42 AM
I'm going to be in a similar situation in about a level (artificer 7 taking craft construct at 8). As a start, I was thinking that the Gibbering Mouther would be a fun creation. Imagine an animated pile of mechanical teeth and eyes! It keeps the grapple, engulf and blood drain abilities, and looses the gibber and spittle. Total cost: 6000 gp.

A Girallon would be good too for 12000 gp. Good grapple and rending skills. Small dragons are good for a lot of punch in a small package, but you loose their cool abilities. I think that vermin might be good too, but haven't looked to closely. The monstrous crab would be sweet, I bet.

When you're dealing with these levels of cost, see if you can take the extraordinary artisan feat from ECS. It'll save you 25% the gp cost. You might also be able to convince your party to chip in. After all, it does boost your melee profile.

dyslexicfaser
2008-02-17, 11:44 AM
Have you seen this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-531914) yet?

EDIT: Also, the thread says that it only loses Ex abilities with a saving throw tied to the critter's Con score, which seems to me that the hydra is still viable.

Animefunkmaster
2008-02-17, 12:11 PM
The creature you seek is called a least dusk giant, heroes of horor.

mabriss lethe
2008-02-17, 01:33 PM
An army of Terracotta soldiers....

Wait... not ancient china....

Iku Rex
2008-02-17, 01:41 PM
I take it the DM has allowed you enough XP to build an effigy at cost? If you have to pay market price it will be expensive, and if you have to drop to level 8 because you've spent XP you'll have less options.

I'd build a cave troll (MMIII, Large, 9HD). High natural armor, high Str, good speed, improved grab, pounce, rake, rend... And it can be advanced. Have it follow you around as an ugly, silent bodyguard. Also useful for carrying stuff.

An effigy owl could make a good lookout if the DM lets it keep its racial skill bonuses.

An effigy tentacle whip (ECS) is a cool item if the DM allows it. IMO you'd suffer the Dex damage but you wouldn't need proficiency with regular whips.

Items:
You can put armor with no armor check penalty on an effigy with no ill effects. It's a cheap way to improve AC. Masterwork studded leather is a good choice, and for more expensive creatures mithral becomes an option. Enhancement bonuses to armor are also cheaper than deflection and natural armor.

Since you have Craft Wondrous Item some basic magic items could also be worth it for your main combat creature, like an amulet of natural armor, a vest of resistance or an amulet of mighty fists.

Buy a wand of repair light damage (CArc, ECS, 750gp) or two for cheap healing.

Some spells known suggestions:

Mage armor, resist energy, heroism, greater invisibility.

bloodluster
2008-02-17, 06:45 PM
Bombadier(sp?) beetles((or whatever they are called)) and spiders make really good effigies! one can shoot boiling water out of there hind quarters and the other can hold people with webs, spiders are really good if you use a large one as a mount

The_Snark
2008-02-17, 07:09 PM
Expensive effigies, of which you will probably have one at best:

-Hydra. You lose fast healing, sadly, but five natural attacks is nothing to be sneezed at. Unfortunately, the price is a minimum of 20,000 for a simple five-headed one; 15,000 if you craft it yourself.

-Griffon. Pounce, flight, rake. Unfortunately, it costs 19,000, or 12,000 if self-crafted. A better option if you don't care about flight is a tiger, which is slightly cheaper and stronger, or a lion, which is exactly like the tiger but slightly cheaper and not quite as strong.

-That Damn Crab (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a). Not as fearsome in your hands as it is in DMly hands, but it's still nasty. It constricts, and viciously. Costs you 19,000, or 12,000 if self-made.

-Bison make fair effigies, costing 15,000 (10,000 self-made). A rhino is a bit stronger and has excellent charging ability, but costs 21,000 (13,000 self-made).

-Dire wolves are powerful; plenty of damage, free trip attacks. 17,000, or 11,000 if self-crafted.

Discount effigies:

-Black bear. Cheap at 8,000 (5,000 self-made), multiple attacks. Not too durable

-Fleshraker. It loses poison, but it's fast, has solid armor class, and a pounce with five natural attacks and a trip attempt. Same price.

-Dire weasels. They're bloodsucking robots. Need I continue the sales pitch on this one?

Uncle Festy
2008-02-18, 08:50 AM
Thank you all.
After a quick calculation, I have 26,000 GP free. Assuming I can craft (because if not, there's no point in playing the class), I'm looking at:
Griffon (12,000 GP)
2x Fleshraker (5,000 each, 10,000 total) [maybe switch one out for something else)
Is there anything I'm missing? I was considering carrying the 'rakers in Bags of Holding on the Griffon's back. Is that an inefficient strategy? How much do they weigh, and how big are they, if I do? If not, what can I do with 4,000 GP? It would have to be Tiny, with 3 HD or less.

Iku Rex
2008-02-18, 04:29 PM
I had to try statting out a 10HD cave troll effigy, just to see if it could be kept alive in a level 9 campaign. I think it can.

Large Construct
Hit Dice: 10d10+30 (85 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class*: 27 (–1 size, +13 natural armor, +5 armor), touch 9, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+24
Attack: Claw +19 melee (2d6+11)
Full Attack: 2 claws +19 melee (2d6+13) and bite +14 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, 2 rake +19 (2d6+6), rend 4d6+19
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/adamantine, construct traits
Saves**: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities***: Str 37, Dex 11, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1

*Includes mithral chain shirt +1
**Includes vest of resistance +2
***Includes gauntlets of ogre power +2

Base creature (15000 gp, 800 XP)
Mithral Chain Shirt +1 (3200 gp)
Vest of Resistance +2 (2000 gp, 160 XP, resistance cantrip)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power (2000 gp, 160 XP, bull's strength)

You probably also want a Large masterwork (reach) weapon and a composite bow with a +13 Str bonus. Giants, and thus giant effigies, are proficient with martial weapons.

Total cost of creature: 22200 gp + weapons.

Yes, it's expensive, but in return you get a monster capable of hitting and killing almost anything at your CR, especially if buffed. One effective creature is better than lots of fodder that cant' hit anything and get killed in every battle. If all attacks hit on a pounce (not unreasonable) the troll effigy does an average of 109 damage (2d6+13 claw + 2d6+13 claw + 1d8+6 bite + 2d6+6 rake + 2d6+6 rake + 4d6+19 rend). And it will probably win the ensuing grapple.

An effigy's main weakness is its crappy saves and relatively low hit points. Be afraid of energy attacks, and stand ready to protect it with an energy resistance buff if a dragon or spellcaster shows up. False life would be helpful.

If you really want a flying mount I suggest a 10HD manticore. The spikes makes it a threat even without getting into melee, and the DM may let you "refill" spikes between encounters.

Another flying option is to build an advanced (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases) 10HD wyvern. Huge, strong, lots of attacks, and it may be able to carry the entire party. (Advanced wyvern effigy + easy travel armor from MIC = fantasy world passenger line.)


The bag of holding idea is iffy. Bags can be pierced by any "sharp object". Read the fleshraker description and ask yourself how long you'll have that bag. :smallwink: They're also expensive. Consider a bag of tricks if you just want to pull animals out of a bag.

Citizen Jenkins
2008-02-18, 04:49 PM
First, I've always been partial to Manticores for effigies. 6HD large fliers are always nice but the big thing for me has always been volley of spikes. 6 attacks at range is never something to laugh at and they keep their value longer than most other effigies, since ranged combatants survive longer than close combat effigies. Multiple Manticores can rain 10-20 spikes a round, which is always dangerous to high power, low HD opponents.

Of course, I always was always fond of coating my Manticore's spikes with high DC poisons, meaning I'd always force at least one save.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-18, 05:04 PM
Tan Bag of Tricks is a decent thing to add, and it can help with the flavour of "Hah! I pull an animal out of the bag!" Not quite got the Chessmaster feel you mentioned in the other thread, because it's random, though...

Parvum
2008-02-18, 05:35 PM
Do you pay less for smaller effigies? If so, stirge could be an interesting (if wasteful) possibility (tiny, 1 hd). Minimal lifespan, but if you have enough, the problem of this is debatable.

As for swarms, you have a RAW vs Logic predicament. Technically, effigy swarms would lose all swarm traits (such as weapon immunity).

SilverClawShift
2008-02-18, 05:53 PM
I'd just like to toss out a good word for the Deadly Dancer found in Tome of Magic.

4 HD = 4d10+20 hit points
60 ft move speed
Improved Whirlwind Attack will let it attack everything within reach
Attack/Damage after turning it into an effigy will be +8 attack and 1d6+4(18-20 x3) and can make a full attack with three limbs (so that attack x3 on a full)

Not bad for 6000 gp. You can give it up to 8 HD, for 10000 GP total (self-crafted).

If you give it that 9th HD, it turns into a large sized creature. That means it costs 14000 GP, but it gets 10 ft reach, so you have more potential creatures caught in its whirlwind attack. It's also more durable, obviously.

Obviously, one of these is great for fighting swarms of mooks. If you're getting spazzed by kobolds or zombies, a Deadly Dancer will be a great portable blender.