Roy vs. Belkar, place yer bets!

[ABB]

Ok, if roy got rezzed and decided to go at belkar, sans cheap, cowadly tricks like using the MoJ, and they went at it mano e mano, roy with the family sword, belkar with his favorite dagger, who would be the last man standing?

OK, roy may lose a bit from being rezzed, but belkar just had a level sucked off him by that wight, so that might balance out. Who do you think would win?

[Swordlol]

Belkar and Mr. Scruffy are a force to be reakon'd with.

This depends, will Roy have like Ressurection Fatigue or Celia helping him?

[Green Bean]

Well, for one, there's no such thing as resurrection fatigue; the spell restores the subject to full strength. And I have to call it for Roy. Belkar uses TWF, which means that he's going to have a hard enough time as it is hitting Roy even before his STR penalty, and to make matters worse, Roy isn't going to have too much trouble hitting back because Belkar's basically restricted to light armor (also meaning he can Power Attack fairly heavily).

[Swordlol]

Well, for one, there's no such thing as resurrection fatigue; the spell restores the subject to full strength. And I have to call it for Roy. Belkar uses TWF, which means that he's going to have a hard enough time as it is hitting Roy even before his STR penalty, and to make matters worse, Roy isn't going to have too much trouble hitting back because Belkar's basically restricted to light armor (also meaning he can Power Attack fairly heavily).

Doesn't Ressurection cost the person being Ressurected one level?

[PirateMonk]

OK, roy may lose a bit from being rezzed, but belkar just had a level sucked off him by that wight, so that might balance out.

No. The Order was level 13 during the siege, so Roy would be 12. Belkar would be still have 13.

[Green Bean]

Doesn't Ressurection cost the person being Ressurected one level?

Ah, you meant the level loss. I thought you were talking about the HP loss that comes with Raise Dead. My mistake.

Anyway, according to the Class and Level Thread, Roy would be two levels behind Belkar if brought back to life. This is a problem for Roy, but keep in mind that Roy's +5 weapon and higher Hit Dice from his Fighter levels more than bridge this gap, especially against someone who uses daggers.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Well if Roy just got ressed he would lose a level and the level Belkar lost was off-set by the level he gained so it seems that Belkar would have at least a one level advantage..... Roy would kick his ass for a while but Belkar would use Scruffy to distract Roy like he did w/ Tsukiko and stab the hell out of him. Belkar wins but then in some bizzare form of regret, he offs himself. After falling into the Abyss Belkar revels in delight and slaughters hordes of demons and becomes lord of the underworld

[Green Bean]

Roy would kick his ass for a while but Belkar would use Scruffy to distract Roy like he did w/ Tsukiko and stab the hell out of him.

Remember, Roy's not a spellcaster. He don't have to worry about any stinkin' distractions!

Besides, why would Belkar be sent to the Abyss? Everyone knows he's Neutral Good. :smallwink:

[Superglucose]

Roy, hands down. Belkar is almost specifically unoptomized, is a ranger... etc etc

Roy has, well, +5 greatsword of something, plate mail, high strength, and is a level 12 fighter. Level 12 fighter versus lvl 13 ranger/1 barbarian? Meh.

[Forum Explorer]

Belkar would win, no matter what Roy did for one reason.

BELKAR IS THE SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!

[tenguro]

Your forgetting that Belkar is the sexy shoeless god of war, so Belkar hands down.

[Ascension]

Belkar is so sadly unoptimized that any combat effectiveness he has is a clear case of Burlew ignoring the rules for the sake of humor. In a fair fight he loses against basically everything.

[Bavarian itP]

Besides, why would Belkar be sent to the Abyss? Everyone knows he's Neutral Good. :smallwink:

With chaotic tendencies!

I'm not so sure about the levels here - Eugene said Roy was the highest level good character in the battle of Azure City, perhaps he was one level in front of the other party members at this time.

On the other hand, Belkar is not a "good character", so he could be level 19 applying this logic :smallwink:

[the_tick_rules]

in a straight fight roy. of course who things it'd be that simple?

[Tempest Fennac]

In regards to the Wight, Belkar will need to make a Fortitude save 24 hours after he was hit. If he passes it, he woun't lose a level. Also, there is a chance that someone will use true Ressurection on Roy, which would stop him from losing a level. I'd say Roy would win due to having a much better weapon (admittedly, Belkar would have a chance if he could use the same tactics he used against Miko).

[Raging_Pacifist]

in a straight fight roy. of course who things it'd be that simple?

Eye things it wood bee that sympil.

[Quorothorn]

Well, for one, there's no such thing as resurrection fatigue; the spell restores the subject to full strength. And I have to call it for Roy. Belkar uses TWF, which means that he's going to have a hard enough time as it is hitting Roy even before his STR penalty, and to make matters worse, Roy isn't going to have too much trouble hitting back because Belkar's basically restricted to light armor (also meaning he can Power Attack fairly heavily).

...Strength penalty? I presume you're talking strictly about the -2 from race, because this Halfling can slice off Hydra heads with practically no effort, he does not have an actual STR penalty. I'm putting his STR at 16, min, personally (max of 18 for 1st level, with the racial -2). Anyway, he's a 10th-or-11th-level Ranger: add in being a Halfing (+1 atk) and his hit chances are about as good as Roy's (except for those extra off-hand attacks, but hey, extra attacks with reduced hit chances still are, y'know, extra attacks).


To everyone who thinks Belkar is somehow weak in battle:
Call "unoptimized" and "Rich bypassing the rules" all you like: Belkar's still an established killing machine. Wouldn't it be best to think why Belkar's so effective, from an in-universe mechanics standpoint, rather than saying "he's completely weak but Rich pumps him up for story purposes"? Because frankly...that's a cop-out, IMO. An unusually high STR score for his race, Favored Enemy bonuses, and free TWF feats from Ranger provide a pretty good explanation. Not to mention he's totally focused on combat and the nastier aspects of psychology, and specialization brings power. His AC likely isn't too shabby either: a probable high Dex, +1 for Size, and light armor comes out to decent. His non-Will saves are probably excellent as well: his Will save, of course, sucks beyond the telling of it.

I'm not saying Roy is weak or anything (far from it: he's practically as good as a pure Fighter possibly can be IMO): just don't discount the Belkster. :belkar:


Of course, VS threads are doomed from their very inception. Jut getting that out.

[Green Bean]

...Strength penalty? I presume you're talking strictly about the -2 from race, because this Halfling can slice off Hydra heads with practically no effort, he does not have an actual STR penalty. I'm putting his STR at 16, min, personally (max of 18 for 1st level, with the racial -2). Anyway, he's a 10th-or-11th-level Ranger: add in being a Halfing (+1 atk) and his hit chances are about as good as Roy's (except for those extra off-hand attacks, but hey, extra attacks with reduced hit chances still are, y'know, extra attacks).

Yeah, I meant the racial penalty. He obviously has decent strength, but between Roy's heavier armour and the TWF penalty he needs all the help he can get. Plus, Roy's hit chances are going to be a lot higher because of his +5 sword, which means he'll be able to Power Attack that much harder because it's a two-handed weapon.


Of course, VS threads are doomed from their very inception. Jut getting that out.

Of course. But they're fun while they last. :smallbiggrin:

[the_tick_rules]

also the odds of roy getting a TRUE ressurrection are low. it's a 9th level divine spell and requires 50k of diamond dust, that's a tall order.

[Raging_Pacifist]

also the odds of roy getting a TRUE ressurrection are low. it's a 9th level divine spell and requires 50k of diamond dust, that's a tall order.

The AC clerics mentioned a pile of salvaged scrolls maybe they have a true ress.....

[The Extinguisher]

I prefer the Roy vs Belkar, who gets nude on-screen first competetion.

Anyway, I'm likely to say Roy.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Roy, hands down. Belkar is almost specifically unoptomized, is a ranger... etc etc

Roy has, well, +5 greatsword of something, plate mail, high strength, and is a level 12 fighter. Level 12 fighter versus lvl 13 ranger/1 barbarian? Meh.
Low wisdom score.

Hell, Belkar's fight with Miko was deliberately an unoptimized to prolong his sadism.

I would just put bets on Belkar doing something dumb and self-destructive. All Roy has to do is keep out of the way and give Belkar space. I mean the Oracle pretty much implied that Belkar won't live past his next Birthday.

Sure, that's not the pit-fight win you would all want, but it's the moral-strategic victory that counts.

:roy: *rolls his eyes* :roy:

[Newtkeeper]

Well, as much as I enjoy Belkar's antics, I think I have to give this one to Roy.

Both are fairly unoptimized characters (a *fighter* and a ranger who can't cast). The fighter is generally considered weak, but the ranger relies on Spellcasting, to an extent. Without spellcasting, the Ranger is basically a Fighter with lower HD, fewer feats, more skills, and an animal companion. Now, Belkar can't have a very high INT modifier, and skills aren't all that great in an arena fight anyway. An animal companion can be useful, but a ranger's is weaker than a druids, and, even assuming Belkar has declared the admirable Mr. Scruffy his animal companion, Mr. Scruffy is still a cat- an augmented cat, and a cat that may or may not currently rule a nation, but a cat nonetheless. A cat simply isn't all that combat focused (even if it can kill a first-level commoner in one full attack), and can't really be made one even as an animal companion. A great scout, yes. A great accessory for the Evil Genius in your life, yes. But not a warrior.

Now, consider equipment. Roy has a +5 greatsword. Belkar has two daggers. All other things being equal, 2 handed fighting outdamages 2 weapon fighting, barring a large source of damage per hit (and the Belkster's no rogue, speaking classwise). Armourwise, too, Roy comes out ahead. Roy appears to be wearing medium armour (he can outrun a dwarf, or at least has to pull one every time they run), but Belkar is, as a Ranger, restricted to Light Armour if he wishes to maintain his use of 2-weapon feats from Ranger class. Weapons and Armor, Roy comes out ahead.

There is one thing this analysis has ignored, however. Belkar has 1 level of Barbarian, and can thus rage. I suggest, however, that it won't help him too much. While raging, Belkar gains +4 STR and CON (and +2 to some will saves). This gives him effectively +2 damage per hit and +2 HP per level. This HP boost makes him roughly equal to Roy, assuming equal base Con. The ST boost is less impressive, especially considering he has a -2 ST as a halfling.
However, this has one disadvantage: -2 to AC. In the hands of a 2h power attacker, this can translate to +3 to damage per hit. In other words, Roy gains *more* damage from Belkar's rage than Belkar does (although no extra HP or to-hit).

[Quorothorn]

Yeah, I meant the racial penalty. He obviously has decent strength, but between Roy's heavier armour and the TWF penalty he needs all the help he can get. Plus, Roy's hit chances are going to be a lot higher because of his +5 sword, which means he'll be able to Power Attack that much harder because it's a two-handed weapon.

The +5 greatsword and the Feats that pump it up are really Roy's biggest advantages over Belkar, yeah.


Of course. But they're fun while they last. :smallbiggrin:

True, true, very true.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Meh. Belkar would still win.

[cdub]

If im not mistaken the +5 is only against undead. Its undoubtably a magical weapon but it was definately not +5 until he added the starmetal which is only fully optimized when used against undead. Otherwise it may be a plain +2 or +3.

Also considering that Belkar could have easily killed Miko (when she was still a paladin) at a point in their battle and Roy thus far seemes not as combat specialized as Miko (he knocked her out but only after a very prolonged fight and when she had lost all her paladin abilities).

Might bet would be on Belkar due to creative ways of combat.

[Chronos]

I'm not so sure about the levels here - Eugene said Roy was the highest level good character in the battle of Azure City, perhaps he was one level in front of the other party members at this time.Or perhaps Eugene was just plain flat-out lying. In fact, we know that Eugene was just plain flat-out lying, because we know there was a level 21 good character in the battle, and there's no way that Roy is epic.

[Raging_Pacifist]

It's plus five with the disrupt undead ability.

[Swordlol]

Belkar would win, no matter what Roy did for one reason.

BELKAR IS THE SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!

Damn good point.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Damn good point.

Do not forget SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR and COOKING.

[someonenonotyou]

but your forgeting the mark of justice all roy has to do is get him a mile away:smallbiggrin:

really in a fight roy but belkar would put up a good fight hes small hard to hit and roy would hold out for a while not killing him give him a chance to change

[Raging_Pacifist]

The OP said the MoJ doesn't count.

[Swordlol]

Oh snap!

You got served.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Oh snap!

You got served.

Me or him? I hope it's him, if I get served again I'm going to lose my friggin mind.

[Orzel]

Belkar is faster (30ft vs 20ft)
He wins... eventually

[Weiser_Cain]

Roy is a pure fighter back from the heavens with a few tricks up his sleeve gathered along the way, no way is a multiclass ranger ?? barbarian 1 going to beat him in a stand up fight.

[Niknokitueu]

If im not mistaken the +5 is only against undead. Its undoubtably a magical weapon but it was definately not +5 until he added the starmetal which is only fully optimized when used against undead. Otherwise it may be a plain +2 or +3.
Um, no. It is a 'plain' +5 normally, with an extra effect against undead.

Given Roy's attack ratings, he would still almost guarrantee most hits with 5 power (ie +0 to hit, +10 damage). Add this to all the other inequalities, and in a stand-up fight, Roy wins easily.

Mind you, the Belkster does not ever play it straight, and can be guarranteed to pull many clever tricks to beat Roy.

Also mind you, Roy is not above such things either.
:roy: : So you are hiding in a large warehouse that you have stuffed full of traps against me? Fair enough. I will just mount this fast horse that I have beside me and ride a few miles away. Have fun with the MoJ...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Bavarian itP]

Or perhaps Eugene was just plain flat-out lying. In fact, we know that Eugene was just plain flat-out lying, because we know there was a level 21 good character in the battle, and there's no way that Roy is epic.

Well, Soon was not technically "on the field", and I don't know if he qualifies as "character" because of all this homebrewed pseudo-undead stuff, and even Roy had to admit that lying is really ooc for Eugene ...

[Raging_Pacifist]

@Niknokiteu: How is his sword plain. It has a plus five enhancement bonus and the disrupt undead ability. Also read the OP people he said this fight is sans MoJ.

@Orzel: Since when do halflings have a base speed of 30ft? They have a BS of 20ft and Roy is wearing medium armor and thus a BS of 30ft since he is human.

[Chronos]

and even Roy had to admit that lying is really ooc for Eugene ...Where did he ever say that? Eugene lies all the blessed time. I think we've seen him lying more often than we have telling the truth.

Raging_Pacifist, halflings' base land speed is 20, but Belkar is part barbarian, which gives him a boost to 30. And there's just as much evidence for Roy having heavy armor as medium, in which case he would be down to 20.

[Lunaya]

Belkar wins for sheer badassness...ness? I don't think Roy is nearly as resourceful. Plus, Belkar is just one of those characters who never really loses. Even when Miko was one hit from killing him, Belkar just smiled.

[Orzel]

Belkar's barbarian level and Roy's nonlight armor can easily turn this into a keep away fight with Belkar's higher speed and Dex favors. The only thing Roy has over Belkar is damage and HP which mean nothing if you can't hit the other guy.

[Quorothorn]

Hey, Belkar is the only character to defeat Paladin Miko. Besides Xykon, anyway. And Belkar did it on his own.

They're both intelligent (well, Belkar's intelligent when it comes to certain things, anyway), powerful fighters. So, really, it largely comes to circumstances. ATM, neither wins because Roy's a ghost and they can't launch any attacks against each other. At the time of the Battle of azure City or Cliffport, Roy by MoJ. In Dungeon of Dorukan, toss-up (Roy's greatsword ain't +5 and Belkar lacks barbarian speed/Rage). When Roy comes back, probably Belkar by probable level advantage. Just before the switch to 3.5, Belkar by having better damage. :smallwink: Etc.

[Inhuman Bot]

Belkar seems to have mundane daggers, remember. Also Belkar seems to have a habit of charging, then roy would hit him. Roy seems to have mundane medium weight armour. Belkar seems to just wear a cloak and a shirt. And pants.

[Mauve Shirt]

10 imaginary dollars on Roy.

[*Templar*]

And pants.

And we can all thank God for that.

[NorseItalian]

Is it a fight to the death?

Belkar would kill Roy no problem, but would Roy kill Belkar given the chance?

[shadowdemon_lord]

Belkar appears to have be wearing ordinary clothing yes, however that apparent lack of AC didn't stop him from becoming the SSGOW, and clearly having an AC hovering around 15 would have gotten him mauled by THAT many hob-goblins. At any rate, I go with the Belkster. Sure, in a straight up fight Roy would power attack the sucker to death, but Belkar and straight up fight don't even belong in the same sentence, as we've seen demonstrated plenty of times.

[Weiser_Cain]

Lets not forget Roy is much, much smarter.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Lets not forget Roy is much, much smarter.

Wiser yes. Smarter? Debatable.

[Superglucose]

Not to mention he's totally focused on combat and the nastier aspects of psychology, and specialization brings power.

But here's the thing: it's easy to piss off Miko. Miko has already been shown to be rather... jumpy... at times. Roy? Roy's been dealing with Belkar's psychology for a long time now, and has figured out how to twist Belkar to his will, he says as much. Belkar's greatest asset, the ability to use psychology, is essentially repeated in Roy only much better.

I'm not saying Belkar is useless in a fight. I'm saying that in a 1v1 fight versus Roy, belkar loses unless he rolls REALLY well and Roy rolls REALLY poorly.


Wiser yes. Smarter? Debatable.

Not really. While we do not really *know* Belkar's intelligence, we do know that Roy's is exceptionally high, high enough to be a wizard.


Belkar's barbarian level and Roy's nonlight armor can easily turn this into a keep away fight with Belkar's higher speed and Dex favors. The only thing Roy has over Belkar is damage and HP which mean nothing if you can't hit the other guy.

One level in BArbarian doesn't make you fast. Halflings are naturally slow, remember.

[Raging_Pacifist]

@OP: Does Mr. Scruffy count as a cheap trick?

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't think he would due to being a class feature. Who was the level 21 character, Chronos?

[Quorothorn]

But here's the thing: it's easy to piss off Miko. Miko has already been shown to be rather... jumpy... at times. Roy? Roy's been dealing with Belkar's psychology for a long time now, and has figured out how to twist Belkar to his will, he says as much. Belkar's greatest asset, the ability to use psychology, is essentially repeated in Roy only much better.

I'm not saying Belkar is useless in a fight. I'm saying that in a 1v1 fight versus Roy, belkar loses unless he rolls REALLY well and Roy rolls REALLY poorly.

Four words: Craft Disturbing Mental Image.

And a few more words: Belkar's been shown to still be capable of matching wits with Teh Roy, and psychologically affecting him. And c'mon, he's got a FEAT designed around psychology. Really, now.


I'm not really debating your stance, because frankly I have no real opinion ATM on this, overall, beyond this: They both are highly effective fighters and high-level PCs, and any conflict between them is ultimately going to be decided by Plot (i.e. circumstances), and VS discussions typically utterly lack that. A VS debate is not truly useful with two characters who are actually very close in power IMO, because you need situational details to make a true decision. It only works with blatant power differentials. Like Dante being >> Kratos.:smallwink:


Not really. While we do not really *know* Belkar's intelligence, we do know that Roy's is exceptionally high, high enough to be a wizard.

Actually, we don't know that: we know that the total of Roy's mentals > any other party member's. Also, considering Belkar's WIS and CHA are both terrible, yet he's extremely cunning, indicates that his INT has got to be very high indeed. Which, combined with being a Ranger/Barbarian, nets him a lot of Skills, if that means anything (this also makes his lack of Survival even more absurd: he might well have a hundred and more skill points to burn). His Intimidate is off-the-charts almost for sure.

Really, though, we know very little about the "hard" statistics of the characters.


One level in BArbarian doesn't make you fast. Halflings are naturally slow, remember.

Faster than a guy in medium-heavy armour, though. 30 ft > 20 ft. Belkar could conceivably dance around Roy, if he's not carrying above a light load.

[Weiser_Cain]

We know that Roy could be a wizard since his parent(s?) wanted him to be, it'd be pretty silly if they wanted him to be something he has no capacity for, yes? And well, since Roy is central to the plot and has already died he isn't going to repeat it unless it's on purpose (Baker would presumably not want the story to be repetitive right). We still don't know what trick Roy's picked up in heaven but if it's so hard to get (despite the topic on Lame 'Epic' Feats) it must be worth it. While Belkar does disturb Roy I doubt this will effect a fight where they're swinging for real XP.

[Tempest Fennac]

Actually, ugene was probably lying when he claimed Roy's mother wanted him to be a Wizard as well (I'm tempted to take Rich's comment about Roy's Int and Wis being "very good" as meaning they had +3 modifiers due to how "above avarage Cha" is almost certainly a +1 modifier). I suppose if Roy had decided to become a Wizard, his stats could have developed differently.

[Niknokitueu]

@Niknokiteu: How is his sword plain. It has a plus five enhancement bonus and the disrupt undead ability.
I really think this forum needs a 'sarcasm' emphasis.
I said it was a 'plain' +5 sword, with extra abilities against undead. Heavy on the sarcasm over the word 'plain', as there is nothing plain about a +5 sword. Let alone one that also disrupts undead. It was a comment on the 'only a plain +2 or +3 sword' sentence that I was replying to.

Mind you, in games I play, even a +2 sword is rarely 'plain'.

As to the MoJ, you are right. Still, Roy would try to avoid playing by Belkar's rules (if only because he is definitely more intelligent and a lot wiser than Belkar).

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[Superglucose]

Actually, we don't know that: we know that the total of Roy's mentals > any other party member's.
We also know that his int is high enough to warrant being a wizard, as his Father made a comment about his son actually studying for a time as a wizard. "You'll be back to cantrips in a week" or something like that.



Also, considering Belkar's WIS and CHA are both terrible, yet he's extremely cunning, indicates that his INT has got to be very high indeed.
What, pray tell, does charisma have to do with being cunning? And so far I've yet to see him being 'extremely cunning.' I've seen him be slightly better than Miko. I've seen him outsmart Elan. Neither of those are particuarly shining endorsements. Miko is pretty... naive in her own way and probably boasts a 10 in the INT department. Elan has penalties in INT and WIS. Out-cunning those two is like out-cunning a rock. I would say that Belkar's INT is probably around 12.



Which, combined with being a Ranger/Barbarian, nets him a lot of Skills, if that means anything (this also makes his lack of Survival even more absurd: he might well have a hundred and more skill points to burn). His Intimidate is off-the-charts almost for sure.

Always able to max one skill. And to point out, he also apparently has no ranks in Spot or Listen. 0 in spot, 0 in listen, 0 in survival... what's he been doing with all these skill points? But that's a different discussion.

[HarmlessPenguin]

Out of curiosity, does Roy have his bag of tricks and does Belkar have his ring of jumping +20?

[Quorothorn]

We also know that his int is high enough to warrant being a wizard, as his Father made a comment about his son actually studying for a time as a wizard. "You'll be back to cantrips in a week" or something like that.

And what does "high enough for a wizard" mean? Cantrips only require INT 10. Sure, Roy's INT ain't that low, but you get my point.


What, pray tell, does charisma have to do with being cunning? And so far I've yet to see him being 'extremely cunning.' I've seen him be slightly better than Miko. I've seen him outsmart Elan. Neither of those are particuarly shining endorsements. Miko is pretty... naive in her own way and probably boasts a 10 in the INT department. Elan has penalties in INT and WIS. Out-cunning those two is like out-cunning a rock. I would say that Belkar's INT is probably around 12.

I was still on my "overall mentals" thing: that's why Charisma is mentioned (also, the Dashing Swordsman punning ability is actually keyed to CHA, speaking for the record). And as for Belkar's cunning...I can only really say "read the comic": there's plenty of cunning there. Plenty of stupidity too, but plenty of cunning.

For instance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)

(Also, "slightly better than Miko"? He OWNED Miko in tactics during their Azure City fight. Epically.)


Always able to max one skill. And to point out, he also apparently has no ranks in Spot or Listen. 0 in spot, 0 in listen, 0 in survival... what's he been doing with all these skill points? But that's a different discussion.

He might have ranks in Spot now, actually: he's gained, what, two levels since it was said he had no Spot ranks?

[Weiser_Cain]

I doubt even his father is stubborn enough to insist Roy fight Xylon with only cantrips, I assume he has enough to advance normally, so at least Int 15(? my dnd math may be off, where's that stat thread).

[Laurentio]

Uhm... we are missing something. I'll try a short (1) recap.
WHO THE STRONGER? No one.
Both are war machines. It's silly to definite Belkar on his unknown data-sheet. Just by FACT, he is a outraging grinder, and this speak louder that class stacking. Maybe he is the character of the master's boyfriend, or have the highest "natural 20" natality of the history of lame statistic. Don't mind: Belkar KILLS, with capital letters. And Roy is in the same league;

AND THE WINNER IS... Rage!
Both can fight properly and go very far, but to win this battle they have to dance with the death, and that is the difference. Belkar is known to fight to win, no matter the damage suffered, but he knows when to run for life. The match with Miko is no proof: he (idiotically) counted on a fast resurrection. (2)
Now, Roy is quite handicapped, because Lawful Lame. So pure, that he actually have problems to do the right think for his own good. Not only he is Good, but trying to improve (Heaven resume). A piece of cake for Belkar.
But, Roy's outrage is unbeatable. Do you know anyone grappling a lich and throwing away? No, because it's freaking fool! and Roy can be, much more than Belkar.

So, I put 10 imaginary dollars on... Belkar. I can see the scene:
Roy is angry => Belkar provokes him more, just for fun
Roy attack => Belkar counters without apparent fear of conseguence
Roy almost wins => Belkar cries for mercy!
Roy stop fight => Belkar strike him flatfooted.
No match, it's a matter of personality. Lawful Lame can't win a match against someone willing to win no matter how. You must step down to Lawful Good and, if you can, to Lawful Cool (BatMan is the goal).

1 - Not short, likely
2 - Bulkar fears the dead? Yes, see 524 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html) and 477 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html)

[Weiser_Cain]

Killing Belkar is a lawful Good action.
Roy Jumped onto an airborne dragon to melee a Lich, I think he's driven enough.
Unless Belkar can pull a series of gags he's lost the fight, it's not like he can fall back on his lackluster ranger abilities.

[Laurentio]

Killing Belkar is a lawful Good action.
No, by some one that probably know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html)
And, should it be, he had so much times to do before now. It's not Lawful Good to let a villain live when you need him for your own quest, and than kill bacause trash-talked your fiancé.


Unless Belkar can pull a series of gags he's lost the fight, it's not like he can fall back on his lackluster ranger abilities.
(headdesk) again... do you need a dozen reference of Belkar showing that he is not an ordinary ranger at all, so speaking of his class/level is just a lose of time? This remind of Prince Ansom (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0067.html): so full of lazy crap, that won't dodge a train just because can't see the trails.

Laurentio

[Weiser_Cain]

I don't read erfworld (I'm not starting now) and she only agreed he shouldn't slit his throat in the night, or some such thing, killing an utter evil being in fair combat is a good thing. And I can't see any way the fight wouldn't happen except because Belkar wanted to do something seriously evil... scratch that did something incredibly evil, once he makes up his mind to do something really evil it's more than likely he'll get around to it though if anyone can stop or distract him it's Roy, but then there wouldn't be a fight. Ramble ramble ramble...

[Green Bean]

(headdesk) again... do you need a dozen reference of Belkar showing that he is not an ordinary ranger at all, so speaking of his class/level is just a lose of time?

But that's exactly what we're doing here. We're ditching the plot elements and ignoring the reasons they're fighting in order to compare their levels and class (and to a lesser extent their equipment). We do this because we can compare these things, because we have DnD rules available for fair comparison, unlike plot elements, where there's no single standard.



Anyway, back on topic. Belkar doesn't really have a speed advantage. Roy most likely wears medium armour (because otherwise, he wouldn't need to carry Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0091.html)).

[Decoy Lockbox]

I bet my 10 imaginary bucks on Roy. Since both characters depend on full attacks do deal their damage (especially Belkar), they would likely close and whack each other until one drops. Roy's damage output per round is actually pretty nice, assuming the other guy is allowing him to make a full attack. Really, in a fight between dual wielding ranger and greatsword/greataxe fighter, I would pretty much always bet on the fighter.

[Irbis]

1. Why all of you assume that Belkar's weapons are mundane? He might have +3 or +4 daggers, for all we know. He never misses.
2. Belkar has advantage of one or two additional levels, probably of barbarian class. Not only he has more more HP's than Roy now, ha has speed, rage and several other nice features.
3. Also, for some strange reason most of the people here imagine fight with the dumbest possible [for Belkar] way - fighting head-to-head, without thinking, which obviously favors "big, dumb fighter" style of battle, not "sneaky ranger" style of Belkar. Of course, he is more than capable of fighting in such a way [see SSGoW episode] thanks to rage and other innate buffs [like humans being his favored enemy] but he would have softened Roy first.
4. For the crowd saying that TWF loses to THF - Roy had his ass handed to him by Miko. Twice. While he had support of the entire party.
He only won when Miko lost her powers, fought with one blade, was seriously wounded by Hinjo and yet she almost managed to kick him for the third time.
5. Incidentally, Miko only managed to subdue Belkar with her horse. When they fought one on one Belkar owned her, unlike certain fighter.
6. Belkar has his sheet of lead. There, one hit, one unconscious Roy. Belkar wins :smallsigh:

[Weiser_Cain]

Roy is apparently leveling in the after life and I just assume Belkar's daggers are nothing to write home about because, well there wasn't a side quest to reforge them.
The question is about a head to head fight.
Losing to Miko with Belkar's help proves Miko beat them both (not that Belkar's better though we could dig out the writeup Baker posted of the fight) though I also seem to remember there being other factors that gave her the edge anyway, but that's another discussion.
Belkar got beaten by a class feature? Whose side are you on?
I've been hit by a sheet of lead, you should have seen the other guy.

[All_Destroyer]

Belkster, for sure.
Why?
Beacause:

1. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html so go figure what'd Belkar do to Roy;
2. He must've retrieved his Ring of Jumping form Roy's corpse, so he'll be again "Raining death from above & reaching things on top shelves (Belkar tm)";
3. And last, but not the least, the power of mighty Scruffinator, throwing him in unproteceted face of Roy (with extra flavour Roy being the Lawful Good character).

And, of course, to all the people saying no Resurection fatigue, the spell Durkon was supposed to cast on Roy is "Raise Dead", not "Resurection", so that means, 1HP, not full health:smallamused:

[Syraider]

Belkar would win, because he is the best of the world!

Belkar would start the battle by throwing pointy things on fire to Roy, until he uses all his potions/resources. Yet, Belkar has to be careful, he has less hitpoints than Roy, but i trust him.

[Weiser_Cain]

And, of course, to all the people saying no Resurection fatigue, the spell Durkon was supposed to cast on Roy is "Raise Dead", not "Resurection", so that means, 1HP, not full health
I imagine he'd take the time(standard action?) to down a potion or two before going after Belkar.

[Krytha]

A large sum of imaginary dollars on Roy.

The only way Belkar stands a chance is with trickery and traps (a la Miko fight), except that Roy isn't nearly as easy to goad and would probably be able to get Belkar to attack him if he places his insults right - which leads to a "short" battle.

[Green Bean]

Belkster, for sure.
Why?
Beacause:

1. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html so go figure what'd Belkar do to Roy;

If Roy's giving Belkar enough time to set traps, then he deserves to lose.


2. He must've retrieved his Ring of Jumping form Roy's corpse, so he'll be again "Raining death from above & reaching things on top shelves (Belkar tm)";

Alas, the problem with jumping is that you have to come down. And there's a large man with a sword down there.


3. And last, but not the least, the power of mighty Scruffinator, throwing him in unproteceted face of Roy (with extra flavour Roy being the Lawful Good character).

Bah! Scruffunator is no match for Roy's lich-tossing action! Besides, Lawful Good has no problems fighting against Evil foes. :smallamused:


And, of course, to all the people saying no Resurection fatigue, the spell Durkon was supposed to cast on Roy is "Raise Dead", not "Resurection", so that means, 1HP, not full health:smallamused:

I'll concede that point. If Durkon is forced to use Raise Dead, then Belkar would win. Mainly because Roy would still be dead because the spell failed. :smalltongue:

[kpenguin]

Ok, if roy got rezzed and decided to go at belkar, sans cheap, cowadly tricks like using the MoJ, and they went at it mano e mano, roy with the family sword, belkar with his favorite dagger, who would be the last man standing?


This is the situation set by the OP. I assume that traps and Mr. Scruffy are counted under cowardly tricks. If Roy doesn't get to use his MoJ, Belkar doesn't get to use his usual tactics.

Now, given the situation, I'd say that Roy would win. Why, you ask? Because it clearly sets up a one on one fight, which is one that Belkar cannot win, for reasons already stated.

[Syraider]

belkar rocks xD:smallcool: :smallcool:

[Quorothorn]

Roy is apparently leveling in the after life and I just assume Belkar's daggers are nothing to write home about because, well there wasn't a side quest to reforge them.
The question is about a head to head fight.
Losing to Miko with Belkar's help proves Miko beat them both (not that Belkar's better though we could dig out the writeup Baker posted of the fight) though I also seem to remember there being other factors that gave her the edge anyway, but that's another discussion.
Belkar got beaten by a class feature? Whose side are you on?
I've been hit by a sheet of lead, you should have seen the other guy.

IIRC, Rich actually messed up in his calculations for that fight, or else OotS' Stunning Fist (or ratrher Stunning Kick, which gives a good aregument for it working differently) works under different rules: Belkar spent basically the entire fight stunned, due to his sucky Will save...except I'm pretty sure Stunning Fist's effect is opposed by a Fortitude save.

Some other notes about that fight are 1. Miko and her horse got the jump on the Order. 2. Roy only had a Greatclub, instead of the Greatsword he's put at least 2 feats into. 3. That "class feature" you mention in the second half of your post is a main reason Miko won the second fight at all (as well as the first, as Belkar and Roy together would have wrecked her even with the rest of the party not in there), plus the surprise round and Durkon's lack of involvement beyond healing: it essentially took Haley out of most of the fight and screwed up Roy a bit too. Don't deride "class features" when they add an extra combatant. Actually, don't deride class features at all, as they're kinda the main strengths of D&D characters: take away Roy's Bonus Feats, and he's a smart Warrior with slightly better HP.

Also, Roy leveling the afterlife? He had one battle. 1. One. The XP system, as I remember from the DMG, is designed for parties to level up every 14 encounters of their CR.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Meh. I retract my point.Roy would probably win.

[Syraider]

so what are you thing is best roy or belkar??

i think is belkar for his rage and his skills

[All_Destroyer]

Alas, the problem with jumping is that you have to come down. And there's a large man with a sword down there.

Yes, but before that, while in the air, he could throw an ICBM missile on Roy, he'd have enough time :smallamused:


Bah! Scruffunator is no match for Roy's lich-tossing action! Besides, Lawful Good has no problems fighting against Evil foes. :smallamused:

I agree, but take into consideration that Mr. Scruffy is EVIL, so he'd have no problems at all to tear up Roy's face into tiny little Roy-shreds while Roy'd be occupated with chasing Death's Lil' Helper down. And Sruffinator is no lich, too, so there goes Roy's main feat :smalltongue:


I'll concede that point. If Durkon is forced to use Raise Dead, then Belkar would win. Mainly because Roy would still be dead because the spell failed. :smalltongue:

Maybe Durkon in secrecy contacted Jaheira (Baldur's Gate series) and learned her Harper's Call? :smallamused:

The only thing that adds to Roy's advantage is:
Belkar sucks on Graple checks, and Roy has THE BAG, which can, apparently, summon even a Rhino :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: :smallamused:

[Quorothorn]

The only thing that adds to Roy's advantage is:
Belkar sucks on Graple checks, and Roy has THE BAG, which can, apparently, summon even a Rhino :smalltongue: :smallbiggrin: :smallamused:

Well, the Bag ran out of creatures during Roy's Mega Fall of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html).

[ShellBullet]

Why everyone thinks that Roy isn't capable to think strategy to Belkars tricks???

Roy has that badge of animal and believeble or not, Roy can also throw things that are on fire...

Roy also can kill Belkar, if he has reason to kill him, like if Belkar betrayed the order...

[Syraider]

belkar win

for his rage and twin daggers of doom :smallcool: :smallcool:

[Quorothorn]

Why everyone thinks that Roy isn't capable to think strategy to Belkars tricks???

Roy has that badge of animal and believeble or not, Roy can also throw things that are on fire...

Roy also can kill Belkar, if he has reason to kill him, like if Belkar betrayed the order...

Again, depending on when and where this hypothetical bout takes place, Roy's Bag is, as of his fall, "out of critters". And Belkar's a Halfling: he has two racial bonuses giving advantages in throwing things.

And yes, Roy is completely capable of thinking tactically and doing so well: his total mentals are, as previously noted, the best in the Order of the Stick (it's quite possible that only Xykon and Redcloak are above him there in the known 'verse, and Xykon only due to that +5 from age and lichdom).

[Emanick]

Belkster, for sure.
Why?
Beacause:

1. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html so go figure what'd Belkar do to Roy;
2. He must've retrieved his Ring of Jumping form Roy's corpse, so he'll be again "Raining death from above & reaching things on top shelves (Belkar tm)";
3. And last, but not the least, the power of mighty Scruffinator, throwing him in unproteceted face of Roy (with extra flavour Roy being the Lawful Good character).

And, of course, to all the people saying no Resurection fatigue, the spell Durkon was supposed to cast on Roy is "Raise Dead", not "Resurection", so that means, 1HP, not full health:smallamused:

Most of us are assuming that Roy isn't going to run across a level 112 or so cleric. :smalltongue:
Raise Dead works for one day per caster level, remember?
Belkar is level 13 and 14 if his save succeeds against the level he lost to the wight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html). Roy is level 14, as he was the highest level Good character on the field (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html), and you can hardly call a celestial spirit in a castle far from 'the field' on it. And as it looks like he'll get resurrected in Cliffport, and Haley will no doubt be enrichened by the long journey, a True Resurrection spell isn't out of the question. Thus, Roy has a good chance of being the same level as Belkar, and could possibly even be higher in the event that Belkar fails his Fortitude save. (Also, he could use the revolving door of the afterlife (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html) to get back to his grandfather to possibly learn the new feat, and in the process he might gain another level, perhaps in the "Dungeon of Monsters That Are Just Strong Enough To Really Challenge You".)
I would bet on Roy, because he has higher Hit Dice, a 2d6 for base damage instead of two 1d4s, and he also gets to add 1-1/2 his Strength bonus to damage rather than two halves, like Belkar. As pointed out by someone else, Belkar might gain some more hitpoints by raging, but against a fighter like Roy, he needs all the AC he can get, and it would actually work in his disfavor. (The OP explained it better, definitely.)
I can imagine them both setting up traps (they're certainly smart enough to), but according to the first poster, we're assuming a very unlikely straight-out fight, with no mitigating factors.
(Add that Belkar's daggers probably aren't more than +3 each, given the fact that he must buy two, and ranger/barbarian vs. fighter doesn't look good for Belkar anymore.)
Anyway, we'd get a lot more enjoyment out of seeing Belkar in the afterlife than Roy again. :smallwink:
Edit: the Bag of Tricks presumably works on the 4-summons-per-day basis, which means that it will most likely work its immaterial wonders once more. (I would like to see Roy and Belkar duel on a giant eagle, though. :smallamused:)

[Half-blood]

And, of course, to all the people saying no Resurection fatigue, the spell Durkon was supposed to cast on Roy is "Raise Dead", not "Resurection", so that means, 1HP, not full health:smallamused:

..And so It lands to me to correct you. :smallsigh: last I checked, the subject of the raise dead spell must of died AT LEAST one day ago/CL(caster level)
now, unless durkon (or some other cleric that would "Resurrect" Roy) is at least of level one hundred and seventeen. (117) He (durkon) Is Required to use either resurrection or TRUE resurrection.

Plus. Just look at the builds.

Roy:
-Family ancestral sword (2d6+7 or more damage,) And please not that the glowing green aura is stated to be particularly powerful to the undead
-Plus twelve base attack bonus (on par with Belkar)
-Extra feats (including weapon specialization)
-Knowledge of combat tactics (Attack of opportunity anyone?) even so, Aoo knowledge is moot because of his C- in that class. but also has combat knowledge. (MBA)
-Medium armor. therefore Higher Ac from armor than Belkar.
-Two-handed weapon High Power attack

Whilst Belkar on the other hand has a considerable amount LESS.
-Small size, so Strength bonus.
-Rather Dumb.
-Daggers, Small daggers so 1d3 damage plus Strength or enchantments
-may only use one at a time except for defense or full attack.
1/2 Power attack for each weapon.
- About minus 5.5 Hp per level compared to Roy

Although a FEW things that Belkar has going for him.

-Sexy shoeless god of war (:smallbiggrin:)
-maybe one or two max levels above Roy
-Barbarian Rage
-Scruffy

So. In comparison. Roy's strengths outweigh Belkars strengths. Belkar is also hurt by his various weaknesses.

now, Don't get me wrong. I'm a Belkar fan and such. but mechanically, Roy is a much better fighter than Belkar. but even so, Belkar is baddass.

But A few things previously overlooked are several variables. such as, but not limiting to.

Time of terrain. Plains or flat lands suit Roy, whilst chaotic, or forest like terrains favor Belkar. this point alone (should it suit Belkar over Roy) would easily let Belkar triumph.

Die rolls are important. if Roy rolls poorly, and/or Belkar rolls rather well, then Roy might be impeded if not totally defeated.

Now denizens of the playground that support Belkar (for whatever reason.)
reply. and I should hope I'm found wrong.

[Superglucose]

I was still on my "overall mentals" thing: that's why Charisma is mentioned (also, the Dashing Swordsman punning ability is actually keyed to CHA, speaking for the record). And as for Belkar's cunning...I can only really say "read the comic": there's plenty of cunning there. Plenty of stupidity too, but plenty of cunning.

For instance. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)

Right, because THAT can't be explained away as simply being a joke.


(Also, "slightly better than Miko"? He OWNED Miko in tactics during their Azure City fight. Epically.)

If by owned you mean "eventually lost to" then yes, yes he did.

And by the way, before you say "but he came close1!1!" keep this in mind: even if you come close to jumping across the grand canyon you're still DEAD. He survived thanks to the intervention of others. I'd say Miko's tactics won the day there, recognizing she could overpower him and ignoring any damage to herself while pushing forward. That tactic won Grant the American Civil War, and it won Miko her fight against Belkar.

[Emanick]

Right, because THAT can't be explained away as simply being a joke.

If by owned you mean "eventually lost to" then yes, yes he did.

And by the way, before you say "but he came close1!1!" keep this in mind: even if you come close to jumping across the grand canyon you're still DEAD. He survived thanks to the intervention of others. I'd say Miko's tactics won the day there, recognizing she could overpower him and ignoring any damage to herself while pushing forward. That tactic won Grant the American Civil War, and it won Miko her fight against Belkar.

I don't think there's any question as to whether a level 16 paladin would win against a level 13 (?) ranger/barbarian. The lead sheet was a complete fluke, and would have been equally effective in the hands of Miko anyway.
About the Grand Canyon, though - what if you take minimum falling damage? Even 20d6 isn't unbeatable.

[Quorothorn]

Right, because THAT can't be explained away as simply being a joke.

You mean there are events in OotS which CANNOT be simply explained away as jokes? Seriously, if you use that arguement, everything in this discussion basically just goes down the tubes.


If by owned you mean "eventually lost to" then yes, yes he did.

And by the way, before you say "but he came close1!1!" keep this in mind: even if you come close to jumping across the grand canyon you're still DEAD. He survived thanks to the intervention of others. I'd say Miko's tactics won the day there, recognizing she could overpower him and ignoring any damage to herself while pushing forward. That tactic won Grant the American Civil War, and it won Miko her fight against Belkar.

Belkar at one point had Miko on the ground, unconscious and in a position to be effortlessly coup de-grac'd. Belkar deliberately decided to throw the fight after he knocked her out. I hardly consider it a victory for Miko when she clearly loses Round 1, then only wins Round 2 because her opponent wants her to kill him.

And also, the first sentence in your last paragraph came off to me, personally, as a purposeful insult to my own Intelligence score: I assure you, it is most certainly in the teens. I only mix 1s with my exclamation marks when I'm attempting to be funny.




..And so It lands to me to correct you. :smallsigh: last I checked, the subject of the raise dead spell must of died AT LEAST one day ago/CL(caster level)
now, unless durkon (or some other cleric that would "Resurrect" Roy) is at least of level one hundred and seventeen. (117) He (durkon) Is Required to use either resurrection or TRUE resurrection.

Not to state the obvious or anything,

Not to state the obvious myself, but I think you got minorly jaN'd (or ninja'd, as they say it around here).


Plus. Just look at the builds.

Roy:
-Family ancestral sword (2d6+7 or more damage,) And please not that the glowing green aura is stated to be particularly powerful to the undead
-Plus twelve base attack bonus (on par with Belkar)
-Extra feats (including weapon specialization)
-Knowledge of combat tactics (Attack of opportunity anyone?) even so, Aoo knowledge is moot because of his C- in that class. but also has combat knowledge. (MBA)
-Medium armor. therefore Higher Ac from armor than Belkar.
-Two-handed weapon High Power attack

Shouldn't that be +14 BAB (presuming Belkar makes his save and Roy's brought back in a way that does not drain a level)? Or am I forgetting something? Also, just to point it out, Belkar gets feats from his class, too (mostly ones that do not directly apply to combat, like Track/Endurance, but also the fighting style ones and Favored Enemy).


Whilst Belkar on the other hand has a considerable amount LESS.
-Small size, so Strength bonus.
-Rather Dumb.
-Daggers, Small daggers so 1d3 damage plus Strength or enchantments
-may only use one at a time except for defense or full attack.
1/2 Power attack for each weapon.
- About minus 5.5 Hp per level compared to Roy

-Small-size also gives +1 to attack and AC, remember.
-As I've argued before, Belkar is intelligent in two areas, at least.
-That's true.
-How do you figure that? We don't know their relative CONs (I think), the Ranger HD is only one level weaker than the Fighter's (so about -1 HP per level on average), and the Barb's is one level stronger (though Belkar has only one confirmed level there). Roy almost certainly has more HP, but I think a difference around 77 is a bit high.


Although a FEW things that Belkar has going for him.

-Sexy shoeless god of war (:smallbiggrin:)
-maybe one or two max levels above Roy
-Barbarian Rage
-Scruffy

There's also a possibiltiy that Belkar selected Humans as one of his Favored Enemies.


So. In comparison. Roy's strengths outweigh Belkars strengths. Belkar is also hurt by his various weaknesses.

now, Don't get me wrong. I'm a Belkar fan and such. but mechanically, Roy is a much better fighter than Belkar. but even so, Belkar is baddass.

But A few things previously overlooked are several variables. such as, but not limiting to.

Time of terrain. Plains or flat lands suit Roy, whilst chaotic, or forest like terrains favor Belkar. this point alone (should it suit Belkar over Roy) would easily let Belkar triumph.

Die rolls are important. if Roy rolls poorly, and/or Belkar rolls rather well, then Roy might be impeded if not totally defeated.

Now denizens of the playground that support Belkar (for whatever reason.)
reply. and I should hope I'm found wrong.

And right there you've struck the target of one of my key problems for VS: they so often provide absolutely zero context (or effectively zero context) for the fight. Context matters, heavily. Anyway, hopefully I've provided a few reasons for you to have hope for the Belkster.




[snip]
Anyway, we'd get a lot more enjoyment out of seeing Belkar in the afterlife than Roy again. :smallwink:

Agreed.


Edit: the Bag of Tricks presumably works on the 4-summons-per-day basis, which means that it will most likely work its immaterial wonders once more. (I would like to see Roy and Belkar duel on a giant eagle, though. :smallamused:)

Ah. Of course, this next brings up the question of where it is: on Roy's corpse, presumably?

[Half-blood]

Shouldn't that be +14 BAB (presuming Belkar makes his save and Roy's brought back in a way that does not drain a level)? Or am I forgetting something? Also, just to point it out, Belkar gets feats from his class, too (mostly ones that do not directly apply to combat, like Track/Endurance, but also the fighting style ones and Favored Enemy).

I didn't count the bonus feats for much. (Track and endurance?) and so what about the Two weapon fighting things. Belkar STILL has only so much damage that he can do from his weapon choice alone. not to mention his strength. which statistically. Is lower than Roys. And it's not even Concrete that their anything more than mundane weapons!



-Small-size also gives +1 to attack and AC, remember.
-As I've argued before, Belkar is intelligent in two areas, at least.
-That's true.
-How do you figure that? We don't know their relative CONs (I think), the Ranger HD is only one level weaker than the Fighter's (so about -1 HP per level on average), and the Barb's is one level stronger (though Belkar has only one confirmed level there). Roy almost certainly has more HP, but I think a difference around 77 is a bit high.

Perhaps I should have given you my sources. witch is pretty much just the newest class and level geekery thread. So Roy obviously has the upper hand hit point wise. But there still is a large margin when determining how Many more hit points Roy has.

[Spiky]

Roy. He would beat Belkar. About 97/100 times.

Some of you are way too hung up on the Belkster's killing=fun attitude, and are missing obvious facts. Even after those facts have been laid out quite well in this thread.

Roy wins. Probably almost in the same manner that Xykon killed Roy. Except with pounding, not magic. Belkar jabs at him a bit, til Roy gets bored and kills him in about 2 rounds.

[All_Destroyer]

Geez, you guys did take this one to the "phylosophical floor".

Ok, I agree on the "need to cast true ressurection" part, since the Mr. Meat Shield is dead almost 4 months, and will be dead more when they get to Cliffport. But, as Laurentio pointed out, Roy IS AN AWFUL FOOL (Lawful Good), even more, the one awful fool who is trying to improve (especially after that celestial blondie rant he recieved). That means that he'll lose alignment should he strike down an opponent who begs for mercy. Go figure would Belkar do that should he felt threatened.

Just to conclude it, even if Belkar died, that would've been hilarious. Belkar in the afterlife, the biggest badass kicking hell to it's knees (as Emanick suggested), that would be the sight for sore eyes.:smallbiggrin: :smallamused: :smalltongue:

[Taliesan]

It depends on the circumstances

In a forest: Belkar wins. He has a double bonus to his speed (Barbarian plus Ranger) and he has that ring of jumping.

He has a bonus to his throwing abilities, he stays out of Roy's range and in the trees, keeps on throwing things until Roy finally falls dead.

In the city: Pretty much the same, except this time it is rooftop combat.

In an open field, an arena, or anywhere else where Roy can close on Belkar: Belkar's dead.

[pjackson]

Hey, Belkar is the only character to defeat Paladin Miko. Besides Xykon, anyway. And Belkar did it on his own.


Roy also beat Miko (when he had his sword), as did the MitD.

In a standup fight Roy would win, but Belkar would know that and try other tactics just as he did with Miko.
But Roy is a lot smarter than Miko.
Belkar probably has favoured enemy humans.
I think it would be fairly close, but Roy should win.

[pjackson]

It depends on the circumstances

In a forest: Belkar wins. He has a double bonus to his speed (Barbarian plus Ranger) and he has that ring of jumping.

He has a bonus to his throwing abilities, he stays out of Roy's range and in the trees, keeps on throwing things until Roy finally falls dead.

In the city: Pretty much the same, except this time it is rooftop combat.

In an open field, an arena, or anywhere else where Roy can close on Belkar: Belkar's dead.

Roy is too smart to stay where Belkar has an advantage. He could retreat until he found an open space.

[pjackson]

GBut, as Laurentio pointed out, Roy IS AN AWFUL FOOL (Lawful Good), even more, the one awful fool who is trying to improve (especially after that celestial blondie rant he recieved). That means that he'll lose alignment should he strike down an opponent who begs for mercy. Go figure would Belkar do that should he felt threatened.


There is nothing stupid or foolish about being Lawful Good.
If Belkar surrenders Roy wins the fight.
Even if Roy killed Belkar when he begged for mercy he would not change alignment.
A single act does not change alignment.
Even if Roy were a Paladin, he would not even fall for killing Belkar in that situation.
Roy has been given proof that Belkar is extremely evil (2+ kilonazis) and thus that killing Belkar is not an evil action, and might well count as a good one (ridding the world of a great evil).

[Laurentio]

I gave up to the discution (Roy is the winner in my opinion, and to go further with the topic would require a knowledge of the AD&D that I don't have), but I've the feeling that Belkar stats are under considered.

Belkar is a "comic character", and Giant himself warned to not trying to work out exact stats. Should be done, I would say that he has some kind of "special power" that makes him more powerful that an identical class/level paragon.
Reading the comics, the most evident anomalies are:
- damage rate too high;
- unnatural amount of HP (or very high armor class).

Going on a thump, Belkar Str and Dex are supposed to be:

Str ≥13 (to use Improved Sunder, probably higher)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, halfling)
I suppose this chars to be very, very high. It would answer to a lot of situation.

Or, let's say that the Giant use a template for "Totally crazy-out psyco-killers" that gives a very high morale bonus.

Otherwise, I'm starting to consider meta-bonus. That is like:
- Belkar is played by master's boy/girl-friend, that is a gore-fanatic and would stop playing if pissed on rules;
- as the previous, but the player owns the house, or the books, or pays for the pizza;
- Belkar is a PNG. And the master is a bitch;
- Belkar player cheat on dice rolls. That is compatible with his roleplaying. Or is lucky in a insane way;
- Belkar's player managed to get a skill that raise stats in combat. This would explain the very lack of every other skill (but cooking);
- Belkar's dagger are still counted as short swords, because the player retorted that with the change of rules he got a damage dealing reduction with no counterpart (and the master is a kind person).

I think that meta-powers of Belkar should be a topic on its own.

Laurentio

[pjackson]

I gave up to the discution (Roy is the winner in my opinion, and to go further with the topic would require a knowledge of the AD&D that I don't have), but I've the feeling that Belkar stats are under considered.

Belkar is a "comic character", and Giant himself warned to not trying to work out exact stats. Should be done, I would say that he has some kind of "special power" that makes him more powerful that an identical class/level paragon.
Reading the comics, the most evident anomalies are:
- damage rate too high;
- unnatural amount of HP (or very high armor class).


I do not think he needs any special stats.
The damage difference between dagger and short sword is not great - 1 point on average.
As a ranger he gets favoured enemy bonuses against some opponents, most likely including kobolds and humans.
He would naturally have quite a lot of hit points given his level and class. A small con bonus on top of that explains everything we have seen.

Massacring the hobgoblins was something every melee type of his level should be able to do. Roy could certainly have done it faster using his great cleavage.
To take down Miko he wore her down gradually using trickery to avoid the stand up fight he would certainly have lost.

[brilliantlight]

Belkar would win, no matter what Roy did for one reason.

BELKAR IS THE SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!


Yes, is Roy a god? I think not!! Meanwhile Belkar is the god of sex AND violence so he should be unbeatable. :smallbiggrin: Seriously Belkar is far tougher then he should be and Roy will have problems dealing with him. Roy may win but he will know he is in a fight.

[ChoaticEvilGuy]

Belkar. He would sneak up on everyone and slice them into sushi :belkar:

[Orzel]

People are hung up on the damage.

It's Attack vs AC x number of attacks that matters past level 10. Look at NWN1.

Roy has around greatsword at about +25 attack (13 BAB, 2 feat, 5+ Str, 5 weapon) at 2d6 +about 15. With 3 attacks.

Raging Belkar has 2 daggers with an attack of more than 20 (13 BAB, 1 size, 5+ Str, 1+ weapon, -2 TWF) at 1d4+10 if he has FE: human+4. With 6 attacks.

If Roy wears a breastplate and has Dex of 10-11 (He shows no type of agility) and Belkar wears leather and Dex of 18 (he is a halfling who dumped all his mental stats)., Their ACs are about 15-16.

Raging Belkar has more HP most likely but they both with have about 110 HP. And Higher initiative.

Belkar will go first dealing around 10 3-5 times (critting maybe one every 2 rounds
Roy PAing for 6 will dealing 30 1 or 2 times.

It's about even in full attack. Whoever wins Init wins.
Non-full attack has too many factors. Belkar has better speed and skills but Roy better damage.

But If Belkar was given proper gears, he wins due to damage and attack boost.

[Me_Grog]

Obviously Belkar would win. He would toatally sneak up on Roy, even if it was against "the rules". And he enjoys killing to much to lose.

[David Argall]

Raging Belkar has 2 daggers with an attack of more than 20 (13 BAB, 1 size, 5+ Str, 1+ weapon, -2 TWF) at 1d4+10 if he has FE: human+4. With 6 attacks.
6 attacks? Belkar gets 3 attacks for BAB, and 1 for two weapon fighting, total of 4.



If Roy wears a breastplate and has Dex of 10-11 (He shows no type of agility) and Belkar wears leather and Dex of 18 (he is a halfling who dumped all his mental stats)., Their ACs are about 15-16.
Belkar's may be [It could even be lower due to rage], but Roy almost certainly has something higher.



Roy PAing for 6 will dealing 30 1 or 2 times.
Roy, +25 to hit & PA for 6 [not optimal] hits AC 16 95%, 95%, and 70% of the time with his three swings, a total of 2.5 hits a round, or about 75 points, or way more than our calculation for Belkar.

[Orzel]

6 attacks? Belkar gets 3 attacks for BAB, and 1 for two weapon fighting, total of 4.

it's 6
3 from BAB
1 from TWF
1 from ITWF
1 from GTWF (if he has more than 10 ranger levels.)



Belkar's may be [It could even be lower due to rage], but Roy almost certainly has something higher.


Roy deals more damage. A lot more. And when the rage wears off in maybe 5-6 rounds, Belkar loses 26 HP. And Roy's got a cheesy weapon.




Roy, +25 to hit & PA for 6 [not optimal] hits AC 16 95%, 95%, and 70% of the time with his three swings, a total of 2.5 hits a round, or about 75 points, or way more than our calculation for Belkar.

Same for Belkar. Like I said, whoever wins Init, wine. Neither can survive the other's full attack for more than 1 turn. Whoever gets 2 full attacks without rollin 1 or 2s first wins.

Thog, on the otherhand, would clobber them both (which is sad) since he is optimized.

[Lamech]

-Medium armor. therefore Higher Ac from armor than Belkar.
Yeah... No. Roy wouldn't wear armour in a fight with Belkar, it would be suicidal. Belkar is faster and has a ranged attack. Roy lacks a ranged attack, Roy would be killed by flying daggers.
So Roy has almost no defense and Orzel pointed out Belkar has a very high attack bonus and will probably only miss on a one if Roy lacks amour. So yeah it is probably whoever win starts, therefore I would put my money on Belkar, because of probably higher Dex and hiding skills.

[brilliantlight]

Yeah... No. Roy wouldn't wear armour in a fight with Belkar, it would be suicidal. Belkar is faster and has a ranged attack. Roy lacks a ranged attack, Roy would be killed by flying daggers.
So Roy has almost no defense and Orzel pointed out Belkar has a very high attack bonus and will probably only miss on a one if Roy lacks amour. So yeah it is probably whoever win starts, therefore I would put my money on Belkar, because of probably higher Dex and hiding skills.

I would wear armor. How many daggers do you think Belkar has??? If he throws his daggers he is out of weapons and Roy chops him to bits.

[drakokirby]

I would say Belkar all the way. He totally owned Miko and she a paldin that has powers that destroy evil and In comic #439, when pissed, he kills like crazy

[Flickerdart]

Roy has the disadvantage of lawful good, yes. Belkar, however, lacks a fighter's HD or brute force. Since he is useless as a Ranger in most regards, he would have trouble keeping his distance and likely succumb to Roy's attacks.

After he dies, though, as someone above pointed out, he would most certainly rearrange the faces of the Abyss and then come crusading after Roy, who, if this hypothetical scenario made him alive temporarily, would be in the Lawful Good afterlife. Which means a war between the Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil planes. Who cares which one wins then? It'll be epic!

[Weiser_Cain]

it's 6
3 from BAB
1 from TWF
1 from ITWF
1 from GTWF (if he has more than 10 ranger levels.)



Roy deals more damage. A lot more. And when the rage wears off in maybe 5-6 rounds, Belkar loses 26 HP. And Roy's got a cheesy weapon.




Same for Belkar. Like I said, whoever wins Init, wine. Neither can survive the other's full attack for more than 1 turn. Whoever gets 2 full attacks without rollin 1 or 2s first wins.

Thog, on the otherhand, would clobber them both (which is sad) since he is optimized.
What do you mean by cheesy weapon?
Also, didn't Roy beat Thog?

[Orzel]

Roy has a +5 weapon where no one else has been mentioned with a magic weapon.

Roy and Thog tied in the bizarro twins fight. But Thog didn't rage.

[Quorothorn]

Roy has a +5 weapon where no one else has been mentioned with a magic weapon.

Roy and Thog tied in the bizarro twins fight. But Thog didn't rage.

Roy had the advantage when Thog and Nale switched: I wouldn't call that a true tie, really.

[Night-Gobo]

I personlly would bet on Belkar... i'm not sure this has been mentioned, but i feel he would use dirty tricks to fight his way to victory!

N-G