The Nine Vs The Nine

[Rowanomicon]

I was going to retire from Vs threads, but I couldn't resist when I got this idea.

The is quite simple.
The Nine Nazgul pitted against The Nine Midnight Sons.

The battle ground is a large abandoned castle with pretty much everything one might imagine to be in one: secret corridors, somehow still usable medieval weaponry and armor, books and more dust books, etc etc

Also the surrounding property is open moors (for miles) and battle can be waged there. Each team starts 1 mile from the castle in oposite directions.

The Midnight Sons are:
Daniel Ketch version of Ghost Rider (in Ghost Rider form), Johnny Blaze (with his Hellfire shot gun), Morbius, Blade, Frank Drake, Hanibal King, Louise Hastings, Victoria Montesi, and Sam Buchanan.

If you want more information on them individually then I'm sure you can find some on Wikipedia and Marvel.com

All the Nazgul have their usual weaponry and armor. The Witch King has a Morgul Blade.

Everyone who has either a motorcycle or a horse (motorcycles for Ghost Rider and Johnny and maybe Blade, and horses for the Nazgul) has it, but not other vehicles.

Info Sources:
Nazgul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazg%C3%BBl)
Witch King (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-king_of_Angmar)
Midnight Sons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midnight_Sons)
Nazgul (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nazgul)
Witch King (http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Witch_king_of_angmar)
Midnight Sons (http://www.marvel.com/universe/Midnight_Sons)

I might post info links to the individual Midnight Sons later when I have time, but until then you should be able to find them on your own.

[EvilElitest]

you've reposted your links a few times

Interesting match, but do the Midnight sons have guns?
from
EE

[Raging_Pacifist]

The nazgul would probably win.

[GolemsVoice]

Well, seeing how the Nazgul cannot be permanently killed, the Witch King is able to shatter objects at will, and he and his homies are generally quite tough, I don't see much chance for the Midnight Sons.

[factotum]

If the Nazgul can't be permanently killed, what exactly did Eowyn do to the Witch-king?

[Rutee]

...Marvel universe? Are the Midnight sons about on par with The Punisher for outright power, or are they more like everyone else?

[Renegade Paladin]

Well I don't know about you guys, but I got twenty bucks on the Nine.

:smalltongue:

[Poison_Fish]

Well I don't know about you guys, but I got twenty bucks on the Nine.

:smalltongue:

I'll see your twenty and raise another twenty

[Rowanomicon]

Destroying a Nazgul's physical body once is good enough for this thread. That counts them as dead as they must return to Mordor to reform and Mordor does not exist on this demi-plane of Vs threads.

Eowyn killed the Witch King's physical body and the Witch King started to go to Mordor to reform, but then The Ring was destroyed and with it the power that bound him to the world after death so his spirit moved on. So destroying The Ring perma-kills Nazgul.
Anyway, that doesn't matter because killing them once is good enouh for this thread. I'd say a good blast from the Hellfire shotgun would kill one.

[Fri]

I don't know anything about midnight sons, but after I read their roster...

If my memory serves me well, Ghost Rider defeated Galactus, once?

And Dr Strange is Earth's Sorcerer Supreme? He had faced larget threat than the nine.

Midnight sons would win.

[Rutee]

Dr. Strange is on it? I.. totally missed that. The lowest level of DEM involving the Doctor would probably be instantly intuiting the Nine's natures and creating anti-undead weapons that vastly dwarf whatever it was that was used to kill the WK, and passing them out to the group. The Nazgul don't stand a chance in hell, sorry.

[Raging_Pacifist]

If they have to only be killed once then Midnight Sons. Dr. Strange would just shoot fire at them and the others would defend him.

[EvilElitest]

One shotgun blast will bring down a Nazgul Rowan?
from
E

[tyckspoon]

I'm not familiar with the other members of the Midnight Sons, but honestly I don't think they're needed. Ghost Rider should be able to solo at least the lesser 8 Nazgul without trying too hard. Evil twisted abominations against all life and terrors to all that is good and innocent? The Nazgul are exactly what Ghost Rider exists to destroy.

[Raging_Pacifist]

One shotgun blast will bring down a Nazgul Rowan?
from
E

Hellfire shotgun essentially shoots fire pellets that burn away your soul. So one point blank shot one a ring wraith would about do it.

[Rutee]

Is that how they work? That might overcome Ring Wraith reforming anyway, if it were a factor.. do Wraiths reform completely from scratch, or do their spirits (Souls, in another word) need to go to Mordor first?

[Revlid]

Basically, Ghost Rider and Dr Strange could take out all the Nine on their own, Blaze would be able to take out maybe one with his shotgun, whilst the rest of the Midnight Sons are basically incidental. They're not going to do anything.

[GoC]

If Dr. Strange is on the team then even Melkor at his hieght would be turned into a wandering impotent spirit or banished to the dungeon dimensions.

[Rowanomicon]

Dr. Strange is not one of the Mystical Nine Midnight Sons. He's often credited with bring them together, but he didn't even do that; Ghost Rider did. Strange is like their sometimes consultant or heavy artillary magical backup if they end up going toe to toe with someone who has the raw magical power to tell Ghost Rider to sit down and shut up. Strange and Vengeance are both said to be on the team by the Wikipedia article, but they are just allies, not actually part of the Nine.

Ghost Rider, I agree would be the main heavy hitter of the Midnight sons and maybe just him and Blaze would be a more even match up. I don't know if Ghost Rider has the prowess to solo that many Nazgul though. One on one he can certainly take them (the lesser ones) out without too much trouble, but they are no slouches in melee and could possibly swarm him. The Witch King could sunder his chain (I think it's been shown to break), but it would just reform so would only be a minor inconvenience. However Ghost Rider would most likely start out using his chain to take advatange of reach with the Nazgul, but having his chain sundered and then reforming it would allow them time to close to sword range.

I think the Witch King would probably sunder the Hellfire shotgun after it took out one of the lesser Nazgul (and yes, I think it might also destroy their immortal spirits that need to return to Mordor to have Sauron give them new physical bodies). The Johnny would be almsot useless. Altthough I think running over a Nazgul with a motorcycle with Hellfire whel would also kill, but it's not very easy to hit a person with a motorcycle.

Morbius has superhuman strength, reflexes, endurance, etc, and the ability to fly (kinda) as well as some other vampire/psionic stuff, but he's unarmed so I'd give him one leser Nazgul and it's a die-die situation.

So Morbius takes out one (maybe two) lesser before he dies.
Blaze takes out one (maybe two if he's lucky) before dying.
Similar to Blaze I'd say Drake's gun "Linda The Exorcist" would kill one lesser Nazgul before it got sundered and he gets killed.
Blade would be basically the same as Morbius and I think take out one or two lesser Nazgul before he dies.

So between them that 4-7 of the lesser Nazgul taken out.

King has more powers and could definitely take out two or perhaps more of the lesser Nazgul. I think if three or more swarmed him they could kill him, but he can fly and turn into mist to excape if need by and his werewolf form is capable of besting even two very skilled meleeists without super-strength.

Oh wait, I've been forgetting the Nazgul Fear. I think Ghost Rider and King would be immune, but other than that the rest are affected. So I'll reduce Morbius, Blaze, and Blade to only one each.

That means that, not counting Ghost Rider, King, Montesi, Hastings, or Buchanan that they take 4 lasser Nazgul before being killed.

I'm not sure exactly what Hastings, Buchanan, and Montesi can do, but I don't think it includes killing Nazgul to they get killed unless someone can tell me otherwise.

That leaves Ghost Rider and King against the Witch King and 4 lesser Nazgul.
Ghost Rider has a motorcycle. I think it's actually formed with hellfire so sundering it's components would either not work or only be a temporary inconvenience.
King can fly.
All the remaining Nazgul have horses.
I think Ghost Rider could manage to dismount the nazgul with his chain (ie. kill/trip the horses) and might just abandon his motorcycle if broken because he doesn't mind fighting on foot at all and usually does.

Now if eithe Ghost Rider or King were alone in this situation I'de give it to the reamaining Black Riders, but this is a lot closer.

As I said before, the Witch King's sundering can allow the Nazgul to close into melee with Ghost Rider and I think a sufficient number could take him down. not sure what than number is. Maybe three or four lesser nazgul or the Witch King plus one or two lesser Nazgul.

I'd give King about similar odds against similar numbers. he could definitely take two lesser Nazgul. Would be about evenly matched agaisnt three lesser Nazgul and would likely have too much trouble with four or the Witch King and one. However he can escape. I'm not sure if the Witch King could counter the turning to mist thing, it's definitely supernatural, but not really a spell.

Anyway. I was beginning to think it was too easy for the Sons, but it seems fairly even actually. I think I'd still give it to the Sons though if only because of King's ability to escape, then re-enter combat as many times as he likes. He can pick them off one by one.

Of course, if the Witch King can do anything to disrupt King's undead abilities then I'd give it to the Wraiths. It seems like the Witch King should be able to do something, but I'm not quite sure what besides trying to counter the mist-form ability.

Help me out here guys.

[GoC]

One thing Tolkien does that really anoys me is all those one-off abilities he gives. They're used once and then conviently forgotten!
Examples include:
Gandalf's deadly flash in the goblin cave (how useful it would have been in other battles!)
Sauron's burning touch
Luthien's song of conquering (conquering an entire island and driving out all the evil creatures in it seems like a pretty useful ability)
Witchking's sundering

The fact they're only used once means we can't tell what their limits are.
Can the witch king really sunder anything?

[Telonius]

From that Wiki article...

Unlike Blaze, the Ketch Ghost Rider possessed a Penance Stare which made the target experience all the pain and suffering they've caused others. He possessed Hellfire powers similar to the Zarathos/Blaze version, but he also had the ability to destroy the undead, and was supposedly Marvel's incarnation of the Angel of Death/Judgment, as revealed in issue 93, which detailed the supposed origins of the Noble Kale version of the Ghost Rider.

Emphasis added.

I'm not all that familiar with the Midnight Sons, but this alone seems to tilt the balance in their favor. The Nazgul might count as undead, but that's not certain. And they've certainly caused a lot of pain and suffering. If either one of those is effective, the fight's over.

[Steven the Lich]

We're pitting modern against medevil fantasy. Nazgul from my standard don't stand much chance. Though it very well depends on environment and objects.
Five scenarios I can think of.
1. If we toss the Nazgul in there with no mounts and give them weapons they are known to have in LotRs, it is definite they lose.
2. With horses and original weapons, not much of a change, since horses aren't signifigant, and they can be shot down with ease.
3. With Fell beasts... now we're getting somewhere, as the Midnight sons, I imagine, have faced no such flying enemies.
4. We could give the Nazgul modern day weapons, and then they are of a good field with the super heroes.
5. Same as above only without fell beasts.

Only advantage Nazgul have without anything but their original weapons is the fact they can turn invisible and have weapons of lethal poison.
Other than that, I have to hand it to the Midnight Sons, unless I am convinced otherwise.

[Rowanomicon]

I figured (and still do) that the Penence Stare is how Ghost Rider would take out the Witch King after all the lesser Nazgul were killed (if the win goes to Midnight Sons) since it basically requires a grapple and if he grapple's one he's going to get shanked by the others.

As for the destroying undead... I've read Ghost Rider comics (he was my favourite) where he's fought undead and has never, as far as I know, really shown any Cleric-like turn/destroy undead ability. He can definitely beat them into a mush or (Hell)flame broil them, but he doesn't seem to have the ability to think them destroyed. I don't mean to conradict that article, but Ive read comic where that would have been really handy and he didn't say do anything of the sort. Perhaps he just has Favoured Enemy: Undead and his chain is Undead Bane... He can certainly burn souls, but that works just as well against living folks as dead...

The Witch King is specifically stated as having "undead flesh" (when Merry shanks him) so I think that the Nazgul are undead. However, if Ghost Rider has a destroy undead spell then the Witch King can counter it.

So far I stand by my statement that it end up King and Ghost Rider vs the Witch King and four lesser Nazgul.

If the Nazgul were on fell beasts then it would end up Ghost Rider and King vs the Witch King... five or more flying Nazgul.

Morbius can kinda fly, but I don't think he can keep up with a fell beast.
Blaze and Drake could still kill one each if they got close enough. I don't know what the ranges of their guns are, but I assume that Blaze's shotgun has a kill range that is little better (if at all) than a normal shotgun and Drake's gun (Linda The Exorcist) would be effective at any range that a handgun would be effective against target moving as fast a fell beasts. Of course the fell beasts would have to slow down and come at least kind of close for the Nazgul to shot arrows (or darts).

I think Blade might get screwed out of his kill if the Nazgul are flying. Unless (does he use guns enouh to warrent him having them?) he shoots a fell beast down then kills the Nazgul.

At any rate... I'd grant the Midnight Sons's the win against grounded Nazgul as King can mist form and move around to kill lesser Nazgul as he pleases while Ghost Rider is capable of finishing off the Witch King once he's alone (and capable of surviving until that point as long as he has King as an ally).

Even if the Witch King can counter King's mist form ability (I really don't know is shape changing counts as magic that can be countered...) I'd still give it to the Midnight sons since Ghost Rider can kill one lesser Nazgul before having his chain sundered (then having to mend it while the Nazgul close to melee). Then that's the With King and thee lesser Nazgul and King and Ghost Rider fighting back to back will be able to hold off the Nazgul and kill the lesser ones until it's down to the Witch King. I'm assuming that a lesser Nazgul could get one hit in before dying and I think either King or Ghost Rider would take about three good sword hit before going down.

Ghost Rider went down from a blast from Blaze's gun and one of Blade's swords through the head (and maybe some Darkhold magic, don't remember. King can go down like any other vampire, which is not too easy (but I'm assuming he can be stabbed/hacked into submission, then beheaded if the Witch King or a Nazgul gets the chance).

Now if the Nazgul are flying then I might give it to them... lets see...
They can pincushion (weaken, but not kill) Ghost Rider from a distance, but he can send his chain out a pretty good distance and also turn it into shurikens so if they fly by the risk being killed. King can fly and will kill an individual Nazgul (they lose some of their melee prowess if they are mounted on a fell beast, plus then it's one of one guaranteed for King).

So King slaughters lesser Nazgul until they realise that they need to land or face anihilation (one before they realise they stand no chance, then another one on the way down). At that point King can be taken down, but not easily.

Then it's the same scenario as before.

Midnight Sons win hands down.

Now if the Nazgul had a Balrog with them... (Only kidding! Balrogs should never be used in Vs threads.)