Why no one can hear Roy.

[Cleverdan22]

I have an idea (sorry if this is ABP'd; I looked on the first page and couldn't find anything) on why Haley and everyone else can't hear Roy: They have to be asleep. My evidence is here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html and here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html. There is probably more, but I don't have the energy to look.

[FujinAkari]

Its certainly a possibility, although I personally think that its more likely that they have to have the Greenhilt Sword.

[Vectner]

Here is why Ugene couldn't appear to Roy for three months. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html

It was because of the sword being broken. What the "normal" rules are for spirits are I cannot say, but I am pretty sure Roy did sleep at least a few times in those three months.

As far as finding a way for Roy to communicate with Haley, I think Celia has the best bet with a contact other plane spell or something similar.

[Purple Cloak]

nah it's clearly because they don't care

but seriosly, i think its probably somthing to do with either the lack or having the greenhilt sword on their person or the fact they arn't related as he might still qualify as a oath spirit in this case.

[xyzchyx]

I think there are two prerequisites for Roy or his Dad to be seen:
1) That the sword be whole; and
2) That the person be asleep, or else near sleep, in order to see and hear the ghost.

I think the former is the requirement for them coming to the prime material plane at all, and the latter is required for an individual to see and hear them.

[Raging_Pacifist]

No one can Roy because he's a ghost. Duh.

[Arkenputtyknife]

No one can Roy because he's a ghost. Duh.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
The question is why could Roy see Eugene, but Haley can't see Roy.

[Raging_Pacifist]

I prefer Admiral Evident. And I was just making a joke. Don't be so uptight.

[Swordlol]

Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

And everyone will notice and Belkar will get some jokes out of it.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Mr. Scruffy will be able to see Roy.

And everyone will notice and Belkar will get some jokes out of it.

Hehe. Remember when Scruffy kicked that string's ass? I pictured Scruffy trying to get Roy.

[factotum]

Unfortunately, strip #78 disproves this theory. While Roy has told the others to rest, he's just walking along counting down 3..2..1.. when Eugene appears; clearly he was nowhere near being asleep at the time.

[Lorn]

Remember when Eugene mentioned to Roy that he could only say certain things to the living?

Maybe that's half the problem; he's trying to say more, say things that he's not allowed to. Thus, even when he merely intends to do so, he cannot in fact say anything, or be seen by anyone.

Plus, Eugene - an illusionist. Maybe the ghost just can't be seen and he cast a spell.

[FujinAkari]

Remember when Eugene mentioned to Roy that he could only say certain things to the living?

No... where did he say that?

[Bavarian itP]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html

Sort of.

[pinkbunny]

my theory is that you have to be in posession of the sword

[Raging_Pacifist]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html

Sort of.

Know that you present that I have to agree. Sort of like when Haley couldn't talk.

[MorkaisChosen]

They're sort of in possession of the sword, but I suppose they're not holding it- maybe you have to touch it to see him.

[Raging_Pacifist]

They're sort of in possession of the sword, but I suppose they're not holding it- maybe you have to touch it to see him.

That seems to be the most logical but boring theory.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

Well, I'm going with the blood theory. Like the ghost in HAMLET, it seems only the deceased's relatives can see him, or at least with any ease. Which means Roy will have to find Julia. Although, Roy did see his father's mistress, but only because she was near the elder Greenhilt at the time...perhaps if Roy were near the shades of one of the party's ancestors, he could use them as a conduit to relay his message. Sort of a ghost-to-ghost broadcast. (Oh, that was a terrible pun. Sorry.)

[Oakianus]

Has anyone considered it might be an unintended side effect of Cloister?

I can see Roy popping into view in the middle of an embarrassing rant just as they hit the city limits.

[Courier]

Has anyone considered it might be an unintended side effect of Cloister?

I can see Roy popping into view in the middle of an embarrassing rant just as they hit the city limits.

I kind of had that idea, and think it would be really funny.

However, at the rate we're going, I think every theory is going to be shot down.

[Theodoriph]

I figured it was because of Cloister too. Manifesting as a ghost is a form of long-range communication, one that could arguably be cut off by a spell designed to isolate an area from everything else.

[EmperorSarda]

But you forget to take into account that the squid monsters saw the squid ghost monster that Roy fell on. So it probably isn't the effects of cloister.

[osyluth]

Well, 531 shot that theory down.

:roy: So much for hearing ghosts in your sleep. :roy:

[Courier]

But you forget to take into account that the squid monsters saw the squid ghost monster that Roy fell on. So it probably isn't the effects of cloister.

I don't know if I believe this theory, but that ghost was confined to the earth and perhaps some sort of monster. Roy's ghost may deal with different rules since he's visiting from another plane.

[chormin]

MAYBE the ghosts can only appear to those who are going to die within the next year.

[kukn]

Umm, I thought it was obviously the Cloister spell that was blocking communication between ghost Roy and the living, as that would clearly be magical in nature. I'm surprised only a few people suggested that here.

[FujinAkari]

Umm, I thought it was obviously the Cloister spell that was blocking communication between ghost Roy and the living, as that would clearly be magical in nature. I'm surprised only a few people suggested that here.

That is doubtful. It is already established that the Greenhilt Sword interferes with communication from dead spirits, while Cloister allows teleportation. It seems very bizaire if the spell would prevent communication by the dead, but allows the living to warp right in.

[javcs]

It isn't that they're not related - Eugene appeared to Shojo.
That also shoots down the blocked-by-the-Cloister idea.

[FujinAkari]

It isn't that they're not related - Eugene appeared to Shojo.
That also shoots down the blocked-by-the-Cloister idea.

I don't think being related has anything to do with it, but keep in mind Eugene -incapacitated a Being of Pure Law and Good and took his place- in order to appear to Shojo. Not -quite- the same thing, as he was actually summoned.

[All_Destroyer]

Seeing the way this is going, I guess that Rich will just have some absolutely-non-predicted-by-us explanation when it finally comes to that "why can't anyone see Roy" page.
I can see the old geezer laughing at us right now.:smallamused: :smalltongue:

[Haggis_McCrablice]

But you forget to take into account that the squid monsters saw the squid ghost monster that Roy fell on. So it probably isn't the effects of cloister.
They saw Roy, too, when he impacted. Dogs and cats are said to be able to percieve the spirit world. Maybe monsters and animals can see spirits readily, but most humans can't? Perhaps a sentient monster could help...or at least a talking dog. :smallbiggrin:

[Eran of Arcadia]

Perhaps a sentient monster could help...or at least a talking dog.

Ruh roh . . .

[Remirach]

I don't play D&D myself but I wondered if this was a situation in which reading up on it might provide some clues.

Ghosts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)

On manifestation:
Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source.

If both Roy and the ghost flumph were ghosts using the standard template, it seems as though the flumph was manifested but Roy was not. So it was currently on two planes: the ethereal (where Roy is currently confined) and the material. It could still be affected by Roy because of its presence on the ethereal plane, but could be seen by the other flumphs because it had manifested and had a presence on the material plane as well.


They saw Roy, too, when he impacted.

They did not. They had fled before he arrived.

Eugene mentions manifestation himself in 291 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) and 292 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), and there seem to be some additional limitations. Eugene only mentions trying to appear before Roy, not any other person. He also cannot manifest while the Greenhilt sword is broken.

Basically, it seems as though Roy is somehow restrained from utilizing his manifestation ability. It seems unlikely that Cloister had anything to do with it because of the ghost flumph. It is possible that the rules of the afterlife that Eugene mention won't allow him to manifest in front of anyone not of the Greenhilt line. It occurred to me, though, that despite manifest being an innate ability of ALL ghosts, maybe Roy just doesn't know how to do it. He figures everyone else has to be doing something (holding the sword, sleeping, having a connection) and never assumes the problem might be on his end.

edit: meant to link to 291/292 and wound up with dual links to 292. Hey, first post ever, please cut slack if you would

[FujinAkari]

Roy is not a ghost, as ghosts are souls who are, for some reason, prevented from travelling to the afterlife. Its hard to say exactly what Roy -is-, but we can be sure he isn't a ghost :P

[Mauve Shirt]

They saw Roy, too, when he impacted. Dogs and cats are said to be able to percieve the spirit world. Maybe monsters and animals can see spirits readily, but most humans can't? Perhaps a sentient monster could help...or at least a talking dog. :smallbiggrin:

Did they see Roy? I got the impression that he was invisible to them, but then again they might have noticed him when he landed on the ghost flumph. But they were running away at that point, so no they didn't see him.

[Remirach]

Roy is not a ghost, as ghosts are souls who are, for some reason, prevented from travelling to the afterlife. Its hard to say exactly what Roy -is-, but we can be sure he isn't a ghost :P

So... we can have a restless spirit who roams the earth with unfinished business, who is invisible and walks through walls but is not a ghost?! The question's rhetorical; I just think it's funny how the rules allow arbitrary distinctions like that. I still wonder though if it's something Roy's not doing right... or failing that, if Eugene allowed him to go knowing full well the poor guy wouldn't be able to do anything (possibly out of revenge for being stuck in that same situation himself for a time).

[FujinAkari]

So... we can have a restless spirit who roams the earth with unfinished business, who is invisible and walks through walls but is not a ghost?!

Yep! Except for the wall walking thing, that sounds like a Reverant :P


I still wonder though if it's something Roy's not doing right... or failing that, if Eugene allowed him to go knowing full well the poor guy wouldn't be able to do anything (possibly out of revenge for being stuck in that same situation himself for a time).

Very possibly. I'm sure there are special rules to Roy's manifestation that he and we don't know, I was just saying not to read TOO much into the ghost's rules on Manifestation, since Roy is probably not technically a ghost.

[Spiky]

Roy is not a ghost, as ghosts are souls who are, for some reason, prevented from travelling to the afterlife. Its hard to say exactly what Roy -is-, but we can be sure he isn't a ghost :P

And you found this data in the OOTS manual somewhere?

Seems the best answer is that Roy is either not doing something correct, probably because he doesn't know what is missing, just as Eugene didn't know about the sword link at first. Or Eugene is playing jokes on him again, still. It's always simple once Rich says it, even if it breaks traditional D&D rules.

[Groundhog]

I'm betting that it's not the Cloister Spell, because frankly, when has the first and most obvious solution ever been the real one in this comic? My theory is that even though they have the sword, that's exactly what's keeping Roy from talking to them. Remember this? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html

[Burley]

Okay. This is MY theory on why Eugene could talk to Roy, but Roy can't talk to anybody:
Eugene is a Wizard, yes? Is there a possibility that maybe he used something...I dunno... NOT like a scrying pool? Roy fell into a scrying pool, so, he is only able to scry. Eugene could have been using Astral Projection or something like that.
It's not THAT hard to think that people can use more than one spell, is it?

[VetMichael]

Wait, wait, wait!

There's one thing we're overlooking here!

Mr. Scruffy can PROBABLY hear Roy - he is, after all, the font of true power, justice, and hairballs in Azure City; heck, he even just chose the new leader of the resistance!

AND he got Belkar to care for something OTHER than himself.


PLUS, as anyone who owns cats knows, Cats hear things that aren't there (it explains why my cat likes to stare at a certain spot on the wall and meow at it constantly - it's a portal to the "Other Side") therefore, Mr. Scruffy can probably hear Roy, if given the chance.

[fehler]

My theory:

Roy left the scene right when a Paladin entered. Curious.

However, one thing Roy, Eugene, and a Paladin all share is a Lawful Good alignment. We know Haley and Belkar do not share that, and we could make assumptions about Celia and the other random named/nameless guards. The Flumphs, being LG themselves, also saw Roy, but were too weirded out to stay and chat.

So, Roy just needs to bump into another LGer, say "Boo!", and we have some kind of communication.

[Miss Starshine]

We know Roy does not think of the sword as his. We know this because of the comic of Roy and his Grandfather in the afterlife. (498 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0498.html)) Eugene may think of it as means to an end and therefore "his" in the general sense, but Roy clearly thinks of it as the sword of his grandfather. So... maybe the sword doesn't count as a link for him?

[exalted]

I'm guessing that the reason roy was able to see his father is because the greenhilt sword is the symbol of their family (also what their family was named after). His sword doesnt have any meaning for those outside his family...Have a feeling that for any of the people in the order of the stick to talk to him, they will have to have...well, a stick first. (symbol of the order of the stick :p)

[Magnor Criol]

And you found this data in the OOTS manual somewhere?

Well, it's in the DnD Monster Manual, and considering The Giant uses DnD's rules and regulations as his world's natural laws, it's perfectly reasonable to use information from the Monster Manual to make conclusions about the comic.

If it is a manifestation ability thing, it'd be a pretty funny punchline if it turns out all it is is that Roy didn't realize that he wasn't manifested the whole time, and he just had to "turn it on" so to speak. =p

[Spiky]

Well, it's in the DnD Monster Manual, and considering The Giant uses DnD's rules and regulations as his world's natural laws, it's perfectly reasonable to use information from the Monster Manual to make conclusions about the comic.


Since when? The only natural law of the OOTS world is that it is supposed to be funny. And that law is NEVER broken. :smallcool:

[ralphmerridew]

Didn't Celia say that Dorukan's dungeon was Cloistered?

Since Roy could hear Eugene there, it shouldn't be the Cloister that's causing trouble.

[Mewtarthio]

Didn't Celia say that Dorukan's dungeon was Cloistered?

The spell may have worn off by then. The Oracle of the Sunken Valley was able to locate Xykon there, and no kobold capable of weilding epic powers should be threatened by two guys dangling him out of a window. Then again, the Oracle had Plot Device powers, which trump even the gods themselves.

[The gF]

The blade broke.

Who says fixing it makes it work again?

[Kimpire]

The spell may have worn off by then. The Oracle of the Sunken Valley was able to locate Xykon there, and no kobold capable of weilding epic powers should be threatened by two guys dangling him out of a window. Then again, the Oracle had Plot Device powers, which trump even the gods themselves.

Celia states explicitly that the Cloister spell reappeared when Xykon took over. As for being capable of wielding epic powers... well, I don't think he needs to actually cast a spell to know the future/present. I'm fairly certain that the lights and the dragons and the incantations are just for show; he certainly didn't need them to hint that Belkar was going to die. Not needing to cast a spell probably goes around the backdoor of Cloister, I would guess.

[KurenaiYami]

Since when? The only natural law of the OOTS world is that it is supposed to be funny. And that law is NEVER broken. :smallcool:

Since the first comic. He throws in a lot of homebrew stuff, but I haven't noticed him flat out ignore any rules yet. Part of the humor of the comic is poking fun at said rules.

[Laurentio]

I see a lot of theories that seems a little ass-pulled.

Roy can't manifest because it's not a standard power for "visiting" souls. Eugene can manifest because he KNOWS how to do. Don't forget that Roy needed the elder aid both for seeing and for visiting the mortal world. So, I put my money on "Roy the meat-shield is too dense for ghost stuff".

I like the "Lawful Good" theory, while I think is just fantasy. A feeling, nothing more.
The blade is needed for EUGENE to manifest to Roy, and it doesn't make a rule for the whole Greenhilt family. Eugene is a one-of-a-type, self-cursed crock. I mean, he banned himself from paradise...
Belkar seeing ghost? I like the short guy, but he can't see a cow in a pasture without sniffing sense. And ghosts smell of... doh!
Cloister didn't interfere with Eugene visiting, so it's not a factor.
Last, Lord Scruffy. While I think it will be able to see Roy, I don't count it. If it will happen, will be just for a smile, and not for any effect on the plot. So yes, but no care.


He throws in a lot of homebrew stuff, but I haven't noticed him flat out ignore any rules yet. Part of the humor of the comic is poking fun at said rules.
Actually, it's not coerent with characters stats, like Belkar Wisdow, and minor reference, like Thor & Burkan alignement. But yes, I won't base any topic on the assumption or a lack of rules.

Laurentio

[KurenaiYami]

Actually, it's not coerent with characters stats, like Belkar Wisdow, and minor reference, like Thor & Burkan alignement. But yes, I won't base any topic on the assumption or a lack of rules.

Laurentio

I can't tell exactly what you're saying (ESL?), but what does Belkar's wisdom being low have to do with Rich following the rules with some homebrew thrown in?

[TheRiov]

Actually the very end of SOD may answer this mystery...

The epilogue of SOD has Eugene's conversation with the Deva evaluating his entrance to the Mountain. After telling him about the bloodoath preventing him from ascending he tells him this:
"if you have heir, they can fulfill the oath.....Would you like to manifest to them? ..... Oooooh uh, the rules say you can only manifest to your eldest child."


I would hazhard that NO spirit can manifest without magical aid. Shojo summoned an astral spirit, which ended up being Eugene. On the other hand, the special magic of a blood oath allows Eugene to appear specifically to Roy. Since Roy has no blood oath ties, he can't manifest without someone summoning him as Shojo's people did.