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Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 05:24 PM
The Orc thread has brought out the age old argument of the 'realism' of Alignment and evil races. Honestly, it's something that will never be settled because certain people have different views on what constitutes realistic or evil.

For some people, the noble Orc is something that's meant to be little different than the majority of rapine and looting cultures that you find in either human history or in George Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice. Depending on your interpretation, this actually may qualify them as evil with others balking at the wholescale labelling of Spartans and Roman armies with the LE monikor.

Others prefer the more mystical version that Orcs are effectively a fantasy version of Buffy Vampires or Daleks. In other words, the Orc is nothing more than an incarnate embodiment of destruction of chaos. They're a metaphor for the worst elements of humanity brought to life with nothing good inside them except by happenstance.

Orcs are all, innately, sociopaths or malopaths that are drawn to chaos and destruction.

Certainly, the later seems less realistic. However, who asked for realism in a campaign setting with fireballs? Mileage may vary tremendously in games. One of the most fun ironies of White Wolf is that Vampire: The Masquerade is one of the most moral games in the world because the whole point is you're destined to become evil then die.

So, this is a discussion of how the 'Alignment assumptions' of canon D&D affects your games.

For me, I've got to say that the conflict between Good and Evil gets pretty much tossed out at my table for being replaced with "Law vs. Chaos." I'm not a Warhammer fan but I tend to prefer Shades of Gray vs. Pure Evil as a general rule.

At my table, there's some universal constants.

* Dwarves hate Elves and war on them whenever they aren't united against Orcs or Hobgoblins.

* Paladins Hate Harpers and Vice Versa.

* The Gods of Lawful Goodness despite the Seldarine and other Free Spirited Gods.

* The Forces of Chaos and Lawful Evil (Orcs and Hobgoblins) will ally against Dwarves and Elves when they unite, otherwise they war.

* Very few Evil individuals are genuinely serving Evil as a purpose. Servants of Gods like Hextor and Bane often are very honorable and just genuinely believe fascism is the way, baby.

* Likewise, "Good" is pretty much in the eye of the Beholder with Just Men frequently at Loggerheads with other faiths on it.

* Humans are drawn to both sides of the Law vs. Chaos conflict and are the Wild Cards in any such conflict.

Personally, I rarely have player characters serving specifically the cause of Law vs. Chaos. If they do, it's because they're flawed in some way because there's really no point to it. However, it allows for the generation of alot of artificial conflict that cripples the forces of good every bit as much as the bad guys are crippled by their own infighting.

I imagine the way I run things would be a problem for a lot of people.

Lupy
2008-02-17, 07:03 PM
I may stand in the corner no longer, the forums need my help. Alignment is easily settled as an issue. The DungeonMaster decides. :smallamused:

Pelfaid
2008-02-17, 07:48 PM
Here Here.
All must bow before Rule 0

Da King
2008-02-17, 08:10 PM
Here Here.
All must bow before Rule 0

I need to get that on a T-shirt. One of my players keeps arguing with me over the rules, and his batman wizard is getting annoying.

Serpent
2008-02-17, 08:17 PM
This argument has to be settled eventually if we keep starting new threads about the same tired crap over and over again, forever, into eternity.

BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT'S HAPPENING

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-17, 08:18 PM
I'll have to disagree with the OP. If a Good God despises another good god because of their ethical approach to goodness, they're not good, but thinly disguised evil (Unless we're talking of WoTC LG versus WoTC CG, since CG has been made look as jerkass in just about every book, and LG has been glorified to the point it replaces NG as the One True And Purest Good alignment in designer minds). And if you're doing that, you're no longer playing D&D, but rather Fantastic Real Life, which sucks.

Plus, the concept of good and evil is universal. A christian, muslim, and jewish fundamentalist might argue ont he true god, and the definition of minor good and evil, but none of them will be able to come up with more than a strawman justification for killing someone on the street just because (As opposed to killing in the name of your faith, which they WILL be able to justify a bit better).

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 08:24 PM
FYI, this is about Law vs. Chaos.

Not Good vs. Evil or the other topics.

Just to clarify, it's not a general alignment thread but specifically about the possibilities of conflict between Law and Chaos in the Realms as important as Good vs. Evil.


I'll have to disagree with the OP. If a Good God despises another good god because of their ethical approach to goodness, they're not good, but thinly disguised evil (Unless we're talking of WoTC LG versus WoTC CG, since CG has been made look as jerkass in just about every book, and LG has been glorified to the point it replaces NG as the One True And Purest Good alignment in designer minds). And if you're doing that, you're no longer playing D&D, but rather Fantastic Real Life, which sucks.

I think it's mostly an issue about Lawful Good Gods believing that Chaotic Good gods result in a world where evil is allowed to fester, grow powerful, and lead people to decadence as well as sloth. While Chaotic Good Gods believe that Lawful Good is a gateway to becoming nothing more than stagnation and eventual tyranny.

Both believe the other's "good" is nothing more than an eventual path to evil.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-17, 08:28 PM
Then, they're Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Stupid. The main theme of Good is that, unlike Evil or neutrality, it actively tries to work together, even if at first there will be no profit. The thing you propose is NOT good. Compare the great good people in RL. Gandhi and John Lennon had very different approaches to it, but they both wanted Good. They wouldn't have fought to the death over the way to do it. If Good did that, it wouldn't be good.

Pelfaid
2008-02-17, 08:33 PM
Both believe the other's "good" is nothing more than an eventual path to evil.

I have to agree.
But in an effort to contribute something to the discussion, I think that it is not so much about the one's good being conceived as evil so much as for the LG god's the CG are representational of positive self-destruction, and in reverse starvation of the living spirit. I think that it will be hard to differentiate between good or evil and law or chaos, because while in D&D they are absolute forces, in reality they are grey and so it skews our are perception as to how reactions would proceed.

Don't think I accomplished much, /grumble, stupid abstract discussions.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-17, 08:42 PM
The REAL problem, in fact, comes from D&D actually NOT being objective. At least, not fully. D&D is, in fact, objectively excepted. Everything can be taken RAW on alignment, or subjectively, except the bits that are really stupid (Book of exalted deeds LG glorifying and Book of Vile Darkness CE vilifying, anyone?).

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 09:49 PM
Then, they're Lawful Stupid and Chaotic Stupid. The main theme of Good is that, unlike Evil or neutrality, it actively tries to work together, even if at first there will be no profit. The thing you propose is NOT good. Compare the great good people in RL. Gandhi and John Lennon had very different approaches to it, but they both wanted Good. They wouldn't have fought to the death over the way to do it. If Good did that, it wouldn't be good.

Uh duh.

The whole premise of Law vs. Chaos is to generate artificial conflict. People will fight, kill, and die in the service or Law or Chaos. Ultimately, it's more relevant to people than Good or Evil ever will be. The player characters should be largely unique in their ability to transcend the racial and cultural boundaries necessary to work together.

A genuine Champion of Law or Chaos is a fundamentally tragic and flawed character because their viewpoint is one that is only able to function in a world where both exist to provide meaning. Nevertheless, entire kingdoms have risen and burned over the issue.

Law and Chaos is Serious Business (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeriousBusiness)

I think it's a nice way to have moral ambiguity in Dungeons and Dragons without violating the games fundamental precepts.

Talya
2008-02-17, 10:17 PM
Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil can work together, although rarely for long. While they have common ground, it is selfish in nature, and such alliance will only last as long as it's beneficial to both.

Lawful and Chaotic (neutral) would be diametrically opposed. They might not fight, but they'd find it nearly impossible to work together.

Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together all the time. Their philosophical differences are outweighed by greater common ground. They will bicker, argue and occasionally come to minor blows, but in the end they realize they are on the same side and there is room for both of them.

Charles Phipps
2008-02-17, 11:31 PM
Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil can work together, although rarely for long. While they have common ground, it is selfish in nature, and such alliance will only last as long as it's beneficial to both.

Lawful and Chaotic (neutral) would be diametrically opposed. They might not fight, but they'd find it nearly impossible to work together.

Lawful Good and Chaotic Good work together all the time. Their philosophical differences are outweighed by greater common ground. They will bicker, argue and occasionally come to minor blows, but in the end they realize they are on the same side and there is room for both of them.

Yep, that's how D&D does it.

I like the idea that Lawful and Chaotic Good will work together against evil but there's something fundamentally revolting to them about the other. In the cases of cultures of Lawful and Chaotic good, it can come to outright war because they spit on what you hold dear.

Freedom and Discipline.