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EphU437
2008-02-17, 06:14 PM
I'm trying to compile a list of the most "broken" character options in 3e. That includes feats, spells, weapons, and class abilities. I hope the list will include the super-powerful character builds, but indirectly (i.e. Shadow illusion + Heighten Spell + Earth Spell vs. Killer Gnome Build). If an entry is only effective as part of a build, please reference the build in parentheses.

Here's my start. If you think something doesn't belong, please argue why.

1. Shadow illusion + Heighten Spell + Earth Spell (Killer Gnome Build)
2. Deathless Frenzy
3. Vow of Poverty
4. Power Attack

mostlyharmful
2008-02-17, 06:21 PM
5. Natural spell using Druid
6. Polymorh/Shapechange
7. Calling SLA using outsiders


and I'd downgrade the vow of poverty, while it may cover some of the basics it'll get pretty much owned by anything that flies or uses ranged weapons and sneakiness.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-17, 06:24 PM
VOP isn't broken, it's only even effective on druids.

Anything that shapechanges
most no-save spells(irresistible dance)
spells that work on a failed save(ray of exhaustion)(grease+SNEAK ATTACK)
Gate and anything that emulates it's effects
anything that gives extra actions(celerity, Time Stop, White Raven, Belt of Battle)
core classes
any PrC that advances spellcasting fully without a lot of Prereqs
Anything with undefined effects(wish, shapechange, the manifester party psions get)
The druids animal companion
any 9th level spell
all abilities after 15th level(see above)I missed a few, but that should give you an idea.

Ninja Chocobo
2008-02-17, 06:50 PM
2. Deathless Frenzy
Deathless Frenzy deals nonlethal damage to you every round, quickly rendering you unconscious.

3. Vow of Poverty
Terrible compared to available magic items. Except for Druids, maybe.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-17, 06:57 PM
The Holy Word series of spells. With a small amount of caster level boosting, you can spam them to insta-gib anything

Swooper
2008-02-17, 07:16 PM
4. Power Attack
Wait, what? :smallconfused: Exactly what is broken about Power Attack? It lets melee types be more efficient at dealing damage, at the cost of hitting less often. You seriously consider this 'broken'? Then I'd like to add Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative and Rapid Shot to the list. They're on about the same scale.

BRC
2008-02-17, 07:18 PM
Wait, what? :smallconfused: Exactly what is broken about Power Attack? It lets melee types be more efficient at dealing damage, at the cost of hitting less often. You seriously consider this 'broken'? Then I'd like to add Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative and Rapid Shot to the list. They're on about the same scale.
not so much Broken as exploitable. For example, when you wield a weapon two handed power attack gives you twice the attack bonus you give up as damage. this means that against low-AC targets people can use power attack to deal truely insane amounts of damage.

EphU437
2008-02-17, 07:27 PM
Wait, what? :smallconfused: Exactly what is broken about Power Attack? It lets melee types be more efficient at dealing damage, at the cost of hitting less often. You seriously consider this 'broken'? Then I'd like to add Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative and Rapid Shot to the list. They're on about the same scale.

And the downside - requires two hands - is easily ameliorated by getting an animated shield. Are there viable melee builds that don't use PA and a two-handed weapon?

Swooper
2008-02-17, 07:39 PM
And the downside - requires two hands - is easily ameliorated by getting an animated shield. Are there viable melee builds that don't use PA and a two-handed weapon?
The system is certainly biased towards two-handers (meaning, I've seen several good TWF builds, but they tend to need more work as opposed to 2H PA builds), but I think we shouldn't confuse 'broken' with 'efficient' here, should we?

puppyavenger
2008-02-17, 07:48 PM
8. Pun-pun
9. the omnificer

EphU437
2008-02-17, 08:02 PM
please refer to builds by the feats/abilities which are their essential components rather than their nicknames (not least because I don't know what "pun-pun" or "omnificer" are)

EphU437
2008-02-17, 08:03 PM
Deathless Frenzy deals nonlethal damage to you every round, quickly rendering you unconscious.

Isn't there something[s] that renders one immune to non-lethal damage? Would that + deathless frenzy deserve mention?

Solo
2008-02-17, 08:05 PM
please refer to builds by the feats/abilities which are their essential components rather than their nicknames (not least because I don't know what "pun-pun" or "omnificer" are)

Then google it.

We aren't your slaves. Do some work on your own.
As far as I am concerned, you don't know much about DnD 3.5 ed if you're going around calling Power Attack broken.

Good day to you sir, and may I suggest that you lurk more.

EphU437
2008-02-17, 08:05 PM
I think we shouldn't confuse 'broken' with 'efficient' here, should we?

I agree. I would say the line between the two is when there are few or no peers. For example, how many melee builds can equal a solid 2-H build?

Gralamin
2008-02-17, 08:08 PM
please refer to builds by the feats/abilities which are their essential components rather than their nicknames (not least because I don't know what "pun-pun" or "omnificer" are)

Pun-Pun is unbeatable through the cheese that is the Manipulate Form ability.
The Omnificer is way of using an infinite damage loot (requiring a few spells, I think Share Pain and Glory of the Martyr, those might be wrong though) to get +infinity to a bunch of things.

EphU437
2008-02-17, 08:10 PM
VOP isn't broken, it's only even effective on druids.

Anything that shapechanges
most no-save spells(irresistible dance)
spells that work on a failed save(ray of exhaustion)(grease+SNEAK ATTACK)
Gate and anything that emulates it's effects
anything that gives extra actions(celerity, Time Stop, White Raven, Belt of Battle)
core classes
any PrC that advances spellcasting fully without a lot of Prereqs
Anything with undefined effects(wish, shapechange, the manifester party psions get)
The druids animal companion
any 9th level spell
all abilities after 15th level(see above)I missed a few, but that should give you an idea.

"Shapechange" the spell?

By definition every core class (or core ability) can't be on such a list. Which ones really stand out?

While any PrC with full casting is efficient, most of them give incremental ability improvements. Certainly worthwhile, but which ones have the abilities to make them really stand out.

I was under the impression that Druid animal companions ahve some torobule staying alive and contributing at high levels.

Once you say "every 9th level spell," while undoubtedly true vis a vis lower level spells, it doesn't tell you which ones stand out from the other level 9s.

I guess a part of this exercise is defining "broken" as " 'broken' compared to other abilities/spells available at that level."

Chronos
2008-02-17, 08:35 PM
I agree. I would say the line between the two is when there are few or no peers. For example, how many melee builds can equal a solid 2-H build?I would say that Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon isn't broken by virtue of being too powerful; rather, the other melee options are broken by being too weak. The proper fix would be to find some way to make the other options competitive with two-handers.

Now, there are some combinations involving Power Attack which are probably broken. Leap Attack plus Power Attack plus Shock Trooper plus things which multiply charging damage plus etc... will reduce most targets to a fine red mist. But the brokenness comes from the whole combination of effects, not from Power Attack alone.

And the druid's animal companion isn't too bad at high levels. Where it's broken is at the low levels. A first level druid's pet wolf is comparable to a first-level fighter all by itself, and a third-level druid's pet fleshraker dinosaur is better than a third-level fighter. Plus the druid himself is still on the battlefield, casting spells or hitting things with his club or whatever.

Worira
2008-02-17, 08:38 PM
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=482636 filler text goes here.

EphU437
2008-02-17, 08:42 PM
I would say that Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon isn't broken by virtue of being too powerful; rather, the other melee options are broken by being too weak. The proper fix would be to find some way to make the other options competitive with two-handers.

Now, there are some combinations involving Power Attack which are probably broken. Leap Attack plus Power Attack plus Shock Trooper plus things which multiply charging damage plus etc... will reduce most targets to a fine red mist. But the brokenness comes from the whole combination of effects, not from Power Attack alone.

And the druid's animal companion isn't too bad at high levels. Where it's broken is at the low levels. A first level druid's pet wolf is comparable to a first-level fighter all by itself, and a third-level druid's pet fleshraker dinosaur is better than a third-level fighter. Plus the druid himself is still on the battlefield, casting spells or hitting things with his club or whatever.

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. So maybe put #x. Leap Attack+Shock Trooper on the list?

And the companion would go on as #x druid companion (low levels)

Thanks.

Swiftblu
2008-02-17, 09:14 PM
Go to the Theoretical Character Optimization Board.

Look.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-17, 09:33 PM
VoP is far from broken. Quite the reverse, actually. Even on a druid, it's generally not worth it.

As far as broken:

Forcecage + Cloudkill. Against melee opponents, almost always auto-death. Neither one allow SR, both with duration of hours/level, and even on a successful save, Cloudkill does Con damage every round. Sooner or later, your Con will hit 0.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-17, 10:17 PM
Let me clarify.
Anything that shapechangesAnything with the ability to shapechange, generally indicated by the polymorph subschool, including wildshape but not the shapechange druid variant.
core classesAlmost all of them are either overpowered or underpowered, there's another thread here which lists all classes considered balanced, they're at 20 right now with only 2 core classes on the list.
any PrC that advances spellcasting fully without a lot of prereqsInitiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Master Specialist, Archmage. all give bonuses that can be turned into insta-win by a half-way decent spellcaster.
Anything with undefined effects(wish, shapechange, the manifester party psions get)Those are broken because the rules simply don't quite cover what they do, making the DM and players have to decide, which leads to player conflict.
The druid's animal companionA druid can have 3 fleshrakers that do dex damage with each hit, with 2 getting the boosts of a level 1 companion, at 6th level.
any 9th level spellCore, non-broken Sorc/Wiz 9th level spells? Freedom
Refuge
Summon Monster 9
teleportation Circle
Maybe foresight
Dominate Monster
Hold person, mass
Power Word, Kill
Meteor Storm
Crushing Hand
Phantasmal Killer
Soul Bind
Etherealness
Every other spell is broken.
all abilities after 15th level(see above)A player can break almost anything if they have 15 levels to play around with, but most don't. If you are trying to block that, you can't at high levels. (see spelllist above)

Chronos
2008-02-18, 12:46 AM
Core, non-broken Sorc/Wiz 9th level spells?
...
Dominate MonsterThat depends on your interpretation of the rules on ordering a dominated creature to drop its next saving throw. If you consider that a valid order, as many players do, then Dominate lasts forever, and is therefore broken.

Suzuro
2008-02-18, 01:29 AM
yeah, a lot of things can be put into this list....I think it just falls into the category of them continuing to publish things, at least something is going to be broken....




-Suzuro

Nebo_
2008-02-18, 02:07 AM
3. Vow of Poverty
4. Power Attack

VoP is a trap. Power Attack is only broken when you use it with leap attack and shock trooper/combat brute.


2. Deathless Frenzy

Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity/Diehard is about the same, but it means you're a caster, too.



* core classes

Because Monks and Fighters are broken... :s



* The druids animal companion

Not broken in itself, it's just too much with all the other stuff the Druid gets.


* any 9th level spell

No, only some 9th level spells are broken.



* all abilities after 15th level(see above)

Yay, another bad generalisation. There are some downright awful abilities after level 15.

Just Alex
2008-02-18, 02:12 AM
Planar Shepperd rules all

Swooper
2008-02-18, 04:48 PM
Forcecage + Cloudkill. Against melee opponents, almost always auto-death. Neither one allow SR, both with duration of hours/level, and even on a successful save, Cloudkill does Con damage every round. Sooner or later, your Con will hit 0.
Urban myth. Saph proved this wrong, I don't have the link but I suppose someone does.

Also, thank you Chronos. That was about what I meant to say - PA on it's own is far from broken, although it is an element of some strong charger builds.

EDIT: Clarification: Not to say that being trapped in a Forcecage with a Cloudkill isn't quite deadly to most people, but it isn't the 'ultimate combo' people make it out to be - there's a lot of stuff that negates it, and it's highly situational. Also, it costs 1500gp in material components to cast Forcecage, meaning it's not something you want to be throwing around.

Zincorium
2008-02-18, 04:52 PM
Urban myth. Saph proved this wrong, I don't have the link but I suppose someone does.

Saph proved it wasn't a win button all the time or in all situations.

It's still one of the more effective ways of killing things if you've got the money for the material component on you.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-18, 04:54 PM
Deathless Frenzy deals nonlethal damage to you every round, quickly rendering you unconscious.

Terrible compared to available magic items. Except for Druids, maybe.

Works ok on Sorcerers with Eschew Materials too.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-18, 05:04 PM
Saph proved it wasn't a win button all the time or in all situations.

It's still one of the more effective ways of killing things if you've got the money for the material component on you.

But by the time you're leveled enough to burn the money on it vertualy everything you run into is able to either cast disintergrate, Dispel magic, teleport, is larger than the cage or is immune to poisen. Frequently several of the above. Even humanoid combat builds by this level will have one of the above purely on the basis of having survived to the point where they're a threat to someone who can cast this. Put that together and you either have to combine it with a Dimensional lock/barrier and maybe a couple of other spells or you're using it on things below you're CR, both of which mean there are more efficient ways of killing stuff.

Realistically if the combo is going to kill something you'd kill it just as dead in a forcecage with no holes and just waiting for it to die of suffacation, while you read a good book or continue on the dungeon crawl.

Wraith
2008-02-18, 05:44 PM
Planar Shepperd rules all

Some varieties more than others, but you're absolutely right. By level 20 most of them are stupidly powerful, but even at low level some really make a DM's head hurt.

Even by Class level 5 - when Planar Bubble can be used - Shepherds of Dal Quor and Xoriat can single-handedly turn encounters into slaughter. When you hit 10 and add up your overall Character Levels however, being a Shepherd of Fernia or Syrania gives you some ridiculously powerful options to Shapechange into.

All the while getting your normal Casting Level advances with the usual ultra-sexy Druid spells.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-18, 06:16 PM
Planar Shepperd rules all

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Masseffect_28_1280x760.jpg

Somebody called?

Anyway, the single worst thing, in my opinion, is the psionic power time regression (part of the larger problem in DnD - the time spells rule all. Contingency, Foresight, Contact Other Plance, Celerity, Time Stop, etc.).

Why, you may ask? You may point out that it's got a HUEG XP cost.

Make it into a 2 charge dorje, though, and it recharges itself as a side effect of being used. Time travel at will = win.

Worira
2008-02-18, 06:51 PM
That depends on your interpretation of the rules on ordering a dominated creature to drop its next saving throw. If you consider that a valid order, as many players do, then Dominate lasts forever, and is therefore broken.

Obviously self-destructive.