Xykon vs. Redcloak

[Raging_Pacifist]

Holy another vs. thread Batman!

So if Redcloak turned on Xykon and they both went Gobbo E Licho who do you think would win? Both have full spells for the day and are in the Blood Gulch map from Halo2 (minus vehicles). Discuss. Also Xykon's phylactery is gone.

[someonenonotyou]

i always thought Redcloak would turn on Xykon
anyways i say Xykon would so win ir redcloak cant defeat miko in a few rounds then there no possible way for him to defeat Xykon but Redcloak is a cleric so he can heal but still Xykon would win

[Quorothorn]

The Good Lord save us...


Well, I'm going to have to say Xykon. Overland Flight plus a Sorc's ability to blast the heck out of everything in sight FTW (and Harm is useless to Redcloak here anyway, and that's probably his third-best damage-spell).

Disintegrate and Destruction are Redcloak's only hopes (not bad ones, come to think of it: those spells PWN).

[The Extinguisher]

Three words: Epic. Level. Sorceror.

Redcloak is goblin-flavoured paste.

[Swordlol]

Xykon, all he needs to do is just stay on the offensive and give Redcloak little time to heal.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Redcloak could rebuke Xykon and when he threatened to Xykon seemed scared.

[Woof]

Pretty obvious, I think.

SoD:

Xykon was already much more powerful when he and Redcloak first met. Remember the fight with the paladins at the fort?

[The Extinguisher]

Redcloak could rebuke Xykon and when he threatened to Xykon seemed scared.

That was the Eye of Fear and More Fear.

[Chronos]

As things stand now, Redcloak is completely, utterly Xykon's b*tch, and they both know it. Xykon doesn't need any spells at all.

However, approximately twelve seconds after the completion of the ritual to control a Gate, Xykon will be a small pile of dust on the floor, and approximately 18 seconds after, his phylactery will be in about ten thousand pieces. Because for the exact same reason that Redcloak obeys Xykon utterly right now, he also absolutely loathes him with every fiber of his being.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Pretty obvious, I think.

SoD:

Xykon was already much more powerful when he and Redcloak first met. Remember the fight with the paladins at the fort?


I still say RC can take Xykon.

[The Extinguisher]

How exactly? Yes, we all know that clerics are broken. But sorcerers are even more broken. And Xykon has the epic level advantage. That alone puts him leauges ahead of Redcloak.

[Raging_Pacifist]

I don't know..... I just get this feeling. I mean, how exactly does a sun set? How exactly is a rainbow made? It just does.

[Quorothorn]

How exactly? Yes, we all know that clerics are broken. But sorcerers are even more broken. And Xykon has the epic level advantage. That alone puts him leauges ahead of Redcloak.

I have two sentences to say here: 1. Redcloak has Destruction. 2. Sorcs and Undead have sucky FORT saves.

[Raging_Pacifist]

I have two sentences to say here: 1. Redcloak has Destruction. 2. Sorcs and Undead have sucky FORT saves.

I thought undead didn't need to make Fort saves.

[factotum]

Undead are *immune* to death attacks (e.g. Fort-save-or-die spells), and are also immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless that effect also works on inanimate objects). Destruction is a death attack. Ergo, if Redcloak is stupid enough to try using it against Xykon, he gets about two seconds to realise his mistake before Xykon rips his spine out and beats him to death with it.

[Souju]

i dunno if i were redcloak and wanted to turn on Xykon, i'd just trick someone stronger than me (like, say, someone with a +5 sword that deals extra damage to undead, as well as his buddies and allies) or with more focused powers vs. undead to smash Xykon's physical body and then smash the phylactery on a rock.

[T-O-E]

Yes, Xykon would utterly crush Redcloak, and Redcloak knows it. Rc won't go on a one-to-one with Xykon, he's not stupid, he would probably form a plan to destroy him, and before enacting probably give Xykon several simple tasks to drain his spells.

[lord_khaine]

Xykons fortitude save is about as bad as they can possible get, one lucky disintegrate could turn him into a small pile of dust.

of course at the same time i doubt RC could survive a dose of meteors.

[Icewalker]

Xykon just outclasses him. I suppose there is always a lucky starting shot that could tip it either way, but Xykon is far more powerful.

[FujinAkari]

The Comic pretty well addresses this.

- Redcloak nearly loses to Miko, until Xykon steps in and saves him.
- Roy easily outclasses Miko in combat (albeit a Miko without her Paladin levels)
- Xykon blasts Roy into the next world without breaking a sweat.

Its pretty clear that Xykon is simply and undeniably stronger.

[Tempest Fennac]

RC was threatening to Rebuke the Eye of Fear and Flame (Xykon wouldn't really be afraid of being Rebuked because of how high his level is, and he gets Turning Resistance). While Disintegrate would do a lot of damage to Xykon, it would need to kill him in one go (it would probably cause a lot of damage due to Xykon's poor Fort saves, though). Heal would cause a lot of damage, but it has a range of Touch, and Xykon cold half the damage if he made a Will save, which is relatively likely). regarding the point about Xykon's Psylactery, would RC have another Holy Symbol to compensate for is old one not being there?

[Ancalagon]

According to SoD it's simple:
As soon as Redcloak goes against Xykon, the CitD will eat Redcloak.

Apart from that: Xykon is a Lich (d12) with some 6 or 7 more levels than Redcloak. I think that's a strong indicator who has most of the probability on his side.

Also, what sort of argument is "I do not know, I just feel like it. You know, I just know it". Well, you can utter it, but... it is not a very strong case and discussing on that base is pretty hard. If you start like that, the thread becomes some sort of list of "people stating random opinions" and the discussion goes like:
A: I think X!
B: I think Y, why do you think X?
A: Well, because.
B: Hmm... but y because!
A: No, I am right, because!
B: Ok, but Y is better because and X cannot be because!

Not very interesting, imho. What you say should be backed somehow (which, in the case of theory "Redcloak wins vs. Xykon" is not easy). It does not have to be a good or even strong backup (you probably won't find it) but it should be more than "I just feel like it". ;)

[lord_khaine]

the SoD explanation isnt very good, its not a backup i would bet My unlife on at least.


Apart from that: Xykon is a Lich (d12) with some 6 or 7 more levels than Redcloak. I think that's a strong indicator who has most of the probability on his side

the d12 hp can actualy be a disadvance, especaly when you lose your con score as part of the deal.
also it should be noted that RC has a stronger class than Xykon, and that they are up at the level of power where a difference of 5 levels is less important.

[Nerdanel]

Xykon's fortitude save isn't really that bad. He has a bad progression in it but undead use charisma modifier instead of their nonexistent consitution for fortutide saves, if they even need to roll, and charisma is by far Xykon's best stat. He probably has something like +20 on his save.

[Tempest Fennac]

I never knew Undead could use Cha for that purpose (I heard about 1 feat which allows them to use Cha for HPs).

[brilliantlight]

Redcloak is completely owned. There is no way he can beat an epic level lich.

[Ancalagon]

the d12 hp can actualy be a disadvance, especaly when you lose your con score as part of the deal.
also it should be noted that RC has a stronger class than Xykon, and that they are up at the level of power where a difference of 5 levels is less important.

A) You mean the INSANE con-bonus the average mage has? Apart from that... d4 vs. d12 makes a huuuuge difference.
B) Cleric is *not* automatically stronger than sorcerer, especially when it is a damage-optimised build as Xykon.
C) 5+ Levels DO matter a lot! Do not fool yourself, the math is simple. Also, being some 6 levels higher, Xykon has much more ressources and much better access to magic items. The rules are clear here.

[Green-Shirt Q]

Xykon would win every time. UNLESS.......

How many Redcloaks are there?:smallamused: 20?:smallamused:

[PirateMonk]

Also, being some 6 levels higher, Xykon has much more ressources and much better access to magic items.

No, WBL doesn't generally apply to villains.

[Ancalagon]

It does: The higher the level, the more cash and the higher the value of the gear. In the DMG you'll find a list what an NPCs gear is worth on each level. It is not the same list as for PCs but "more levels, more valuable cash" is still true.
And some epic sorcerer has access to virtually any non-artefact magic item and probably access to one or two artefacts as well if he really puts his mind to it - and we know that Xykon DOES prepare (and Redcloak betraying him before the end is one of the more obvious things that could happen).

[Holammer]

Level difference is too great (methinks anyway) for Redcloak to be able to take out Xykon in individual combat. I'll always root for the Cleric underdog but c'mon!

This thread however made me aware of the fact that Redcloak got Xykon by the balls (literally figure of speech here) as he hold on to Xykon's "soul-hidey-place" and can at any whim destroy him should the need arise, in the same manner as Celia zapped the amulet.
There must be some level of trust between them, because of their mutual goals. For now anyway.

[Quorothorn]

Undead are *immune* to death attacks (e.g. Fort-save-or-die spells), and are also immune to any effect requiring a Fortitude save (unless that effect also works on inanimate objects). Destruction is a death attack. Ergo, if Redcloak is stupid enough to try using it against Xykon, he gets about two seconds to realise his mistake before Xykon rips his spine out and beats him to death with it.

...Drat, I knew I didn't know all the undead rules. My spine. Oh the pain.

Still, Disintegrate provides a chance.


To FujinAkari: That "X beats Y and Y beats Z, therefore X beats Z" argument or any variation thereof really...doesn't work too well. >_>

[Green Bean]

...Drat, I knew I didn't know all the undead rules. My spine. Oh the pain.

Still, Disintegrate provides a chance.

Chance being the operative work. Since Disintegrate involves so many dice, there's a much lower probability of getting an above average result. Xykon (on average) would have around 135 hp, and Disintegrate's average damage misses by about thirty. For a one hit KO, you're looking at a probability of one or two percent, tops. And Redcloak only has one shot.

[batsofchaos]

Level difference is too great (methinks anyway) for Redcloak to be able to take out Xykon in individual combat. I'll always root for the Cleric underdog but c'mon!

This thread however made me aware of the fact that Redcloak got Xykon by the balls (literally figure of speech here) as he hold on to Xykon's "soul-hidey-place" and can at any whim destroy him should the need arise, in the same manner as Celia zapped the amulet.
There must be some level of trust between them, because of their mutual goals. For now anyway.

WARNING!

MAJOR SoD Spoilers:

Redcloak has no real control over Xykon regarding the phylactery. Both are aware if Redcloak smashes it, it won't destroy Xykon, and he will promptly gut RC for the trouble. The only way for RC to kill X would be if he or someone else destroys X's body and then he smashes the Phylactery.

Xykon does, however, have complete confidence in Redcloak. After all, if Redcloak were to kill Xykon before the plan is completed, then Redcloak would have killed his brother in cold blood for no reason at all, and Redcloak doesn't have the cajones to do that.

That said, I think that if Team Evil succeeds at seizing a gate, as soon as their ritual is done Redcloak will attempt to kill Xykon. I also think that Xykon will be fully expecting it. Currently, Redcloak would probably be taken down mightily. But that's a ways away, and Redcloak can probably level up quite a bit between now and then.

[Alfryd]

Because for the exact same reason that Redcloak obeys Xykon utterly right now, he also absolutely loathes him with every fiber of his being.
Eh... that's debatable. They do have a sort of like/dislike dyanamic going, but I'm not sure it extends as far as loathing in either direction. Contempt, sure. But hey seem to have been legitimately buddy-buddy now and then.

I don't know..... I just get this feeling. I mean, how exactly does a sun set? How exactly is a rainbow made? It just does.
Well, the planet rotates every 24 hours, thus obscuring the incandescant orb of raging fusion that gave us life, and the electromangetic radiation from said orb is refracted through different angles by liquids at different points in the spectrum.

But as for Redcloak defeating Xykon? Well, Xykon certainly has a brutal edge in terms of psychology and firepower, but Redcloak has the benefits of advance planning, strategic acumen and superior intelligence (in both senses of the word.) I would not care to bet on the outcome at all.

B) Cleric is *not* automatically stronger than sorcerer, especially when it is a damage-optimised build as Xykon.
Xykon appears to be optimised for mass slaughter, rather than solo engagements. (Frankly, he got lucky against Dorukan.) How many instant death spells does he have available that can reliably take out Redcloak?

And some epic sorcerer has access to virtually any non-artefact magic item and probably access to one or two artefacts as well if he really puts his mind to it - and we know that Xykon DOES prepare (and Redcloak betraying him before the end is one of the more obvious things that could happen).
That's true enough. SoD does indicate that X eventually gets around to covering his ass against the more damaging contingencies.

[RebelRogue]

He has a bad progression in it but undead use charisma modifier instead of their nonexistent consitution for fortutide saves
Not true! As an undead, he lacks a Con score, which means he uses a +0 modifier for any rolls or DCs involving Con. You may be thinking of Concentration checks, to which he may indeed apply his Cha modifier.

[Chronos]

B) Cleric is *not* automatically stronger than sorcerer, especially when it is a damage-optimised build as Xykon. You seem to be under the impression that optimizing for damage makes a cleric stronger. Fact is, Redcloak probably can survive a meteor swarm in the face. He'd be hurt pretty bad, but he'd survive. And Xykon probably wouldn't be able to use Meteor Swarm anyway, since he and Redcloak would probably be too close together at the start of the battle.

And if we're bringing equipment into this, then Redcloak has an even greater advantage. While it is ordinarily true that higher-level characters have better loot, in this specific case, readers of Start of Darkness know that Redcloak's loot is in fact better than Xykon's.

Really, what it comes down to, is that either of them is powerful enough to probably be able to kill the other in a single round. So now it just comes down to who will act first. Neither one will act until the ritual is complete, because they know they need each other for that. After the ritual, Xykon would turn on Redcloak as soon as he got bored, which would take at least fifteen minutes or so. Redcloak, meanwhile, would turn on Xykon as soon as he verified that the ritual worked, which would take six seconds. Therefore, Redcloak acts first, and Xykon never gets a chance to.


Chance being the operative work. Since Disintegrate involves so many dice, there's a much lower probability of getting an above average result. Xykon (on average) would have around 135 hp, and Disintegrate's average damage misses by about thirty. For a one hit KO, you're looking at a probability of one or two percent, tops. And Redcloak only has one shot.You're assuming a caster level of 15 for Redcloak. While that is the best current estimate for his class level, it could be higher, too. And there are a lot of things that clerics can do to boost their caster level. You're also assuming that there's no metamagic on that Disintegrate, but a single metamagic rod of Maximise or Empower would send Xykon's chances of survival down well under 50%, and probably below 10%. Alternately, assuming that he survives long enough to cast two spells (a surprise round and winning initiative, or surviving one round of Xykon's attacks, neither of which is unlikely), he could hit Xykon with a Heal first for a guaranteed 75 damage, and then cast the Disintegrate.

Or, of course, if they've just finished the ritual, Redcloak could just politely ask the Dark One to take out Xykon for him. And I'm not at all certain that he wouldn't do it.

[Raging_Pacifist]

In fact the Dark One may like him even more for his newfound affinity for goblins.

[ShellBullet]

I think we are forgetting one spell.

Level drain.

It doesn't kill RC in on round, but it does weakens RC consireble.

[ambartanen]

I don't see why people assume neither Xykon nor Redcloak would have any buff spells on them.

Assuming Redcloak attacks Xykon at a time chosen by him, he'd have the following advantages:
1. A surprise round for Redcloak.
2. A combination of three or four protection from energy spells(lvl 3), death ward (lvl 4), and greater spell immunity (lvl 8) make Redcloak immune to every single attack spell Xykon can cast as well as a lich's paralyzing touch.

Add a protection from chaos to this and RC becomes immune to any domination Xykon might whip out of somewhere. All of these spells have a duration of 10min/CL which means RC could prepare them hours in advance.

True, this still doesn't mean he is going to kill Xykon in the battle but it is pretty easy for him to protect himself and then just start throwing Disintegrations/Heals around.

A cleric at these levels can make himself invulnerable to almost anything so long as he is aware he needs to. And Redcloak definitely knows what Xykon is capable of.

[Axl_Rose]

Redcloak could rebuke Xykon and when he threatened to Xykon seemed scared.

Do you think Xykon's brothers know that?

:mitd:

[Chronos]

I think we are forgetting one spell.

Level drain.

It doesn't kill RC in on round, but it does weakens RC consireble.But Xykon needs to kill him in one round, because Redcloak can surely kill Xykon in two. And while it would weaken him considerably (if he didn't already have Death Ward up), it still wouldn't be enough to stop a Heal-Disintegrate one-two punch.

[Quorothorn]

But Xykon needs to kill him in one round, because Redcloak can surely kill Xykon in two. And while it would weaken him considerably (if he didn't already have Death Ward up), it still wouldn't be enough to stop a Heal-Disintegrate one-two punch.

Wait, does Redcloak know Heal? I thought you had to choose between the Heal and Harm lines...Oh, wait, that's only for spontaneous castings, isn't it?

Ah, I have the solution for Xykon: Ghostform and/or Forcecage. Not fool-proof, but they (plus Overland Flight) give him a needed edge. "Bite my 50% miss chance."

[Kish]

Wait, does Redcloak know Heal? I thought you had to choose between the Heal and Harm lines...Oh, wait, that's only for spontaneous castings, isn't it?
Neither is a Cure or Cause Wounds Spell, so neither can be spontaneously cast. Every cleric who can cast sixth level spells can prepare and cast both.

[DreadZombigar]

at first I was in the RC camp- then I looked up a few spell choices:

Death Ward- Spell Mantle - Gate - Superior Resistance - Disintergrate

-VS-

Meteor Swarm - Energy Drain - Gate - Wail of Banshee - Power Word Kill


just to name a few..

I go with Xykon

[Quorothorn]

Neither is a Cure or Cause Wounds Spell, so neither can be spontaneously cast. Every cleric who can cast sixth level spells can prepare and cast both.

Yeah, I remembered that approximately 50 seconds after making my post (didn't think it was worth an Edit). >_> Ah, well, brainfreeze by me.

[theinsulabot]

disintegrate would work fine, but theres almost no chance of RC getting off his heal attack, its range of touch against a flight spell. no, RC would have to take a round to try to dispel flight first, and xykon would have 2 rounds. RC would NOT last 2 rounds against xykon. the meteor storm may or may not be the auto kill, but follow that up with a power word death, and its over. i dont think anyone believes RC would have any chance of living through xykons first attack with more then 50 HP

[shadowdemon_lord]

Eh, I'm in the RC camp...if he preps before hand. As has been pointed out, death ward would protect against things like wail of the banshee or power word kill. Clerics can make themselves virtually immune to energy based attacks, and in fact have two different spells for this, I'm sure that Redcloak knows what Xykons energy based attacks are and could plan accordingly. A greater spell immunity/spell immunity could probably cover the rest.

In this situation, the only shot I see for Xykon is starting the battle with spell turning up, and hoping RC leads with his disintegrate attack. If Xykon didn't decide to go full boar ahead with his attack spells that RC is immune to, and instead opened up with greater dispel magics/mages disjunction he'd probably be able to carry the day.

[David Argall]

a-There are loads of reasons to assume Redcloak is not going to attack Xykon. The lich is vital to his plans, and his emotional load makes it even harder to consider such an idea.

b-We have never seen Redcloak cast a 9th level spell, despite a number of good times to do so. Max level = 16. Xykon can cast 7 in a single battle = 21, minimum. We have estimates going considerably higher.
Redcloak can't even start to turn the lich. He can't match him spell for spell. And no, he can't manage to set up a battlefield where he has the advantage. See SOD Right-eye spent years trying to set up an ambush and Xykon was ahead of him all the way. Redcloak has a degree of honesty to him that makes his ability to fool the lich suspect at best. And any situation where the lich gave him motive to attack, the lich would know of that motive first.

[Raging_Pacifist]

If prepared in advance RC could take Xykon.

[Chronos]

Meteor Swarm - Energy Drain - Gate - Wail of Banshee - Power Word KillXykon does not know Gate, Wail of the Banshee, or Power Word: Kill. Nor does he know Disjunction, and even if he did, he'd be a fool to use it on Redcloak. In fact, we haven't seen a single significant offensive spell from him that could get past Death Ward and Resist/Protection from Energy.


a-There are loads of reasons to assume Redcloak is not going to attack Xykon. The lich is vital to his plans, and his emotional load makes it even harder to consider such an idea.The lich is vital to his plans now. As soon as those plans are completed, though...


b-We have never seen Redcloak cast a 9th level spell, despite a number of good times to do so. Max level = 16. Xykon can cast 7 in a single battle = 21, minimum.That's evidence for Xykon having a 28 Charisma (very plausible), not for him being level 21 (which wouldn't even increase his number of 9th-level spells). And by the same token that we've never seen Redcloak cast any 9th-level spells, we also haven't seen Xykon cast any epic spells. So the best estimate for Xykon's level is exactly 20.

[Superglucose]

Is there some reason Xykon can't know Time Stop? Because with Time Stop, I think it's pretty much over. Time Stop for 1d4+1 rounds? An average of three maximised delayed-blast fireballs stuck next to poor RC. That's... 270 damage if RC fails his saves. And RC can't down Xykon in one round, so if RC lost initiative, or Xykon got to act first for whatever reason, a meteor swarm would almost certainly finish RC off.

[David Argall]

The lich is vital to his plans now. As soon as those plans are completed, though...


SOD Redcloak's plan is quite long range. It's been going on for longer than he has been alive, and on available evidence is going to be going on for a good deal longer, a time that could easily exceed a year.

And once the plan is complete, Xykon is just unimportant. Redcloak would be busy with helping with the changes his god would be forcing on the other gods and would not have time for powdering the lich. Now of course Xykon may well not like finding out he is now the underling and things could become deadly, but that is "could". And here too the battle looks to not be close. Either the god helps Redcloak [in which case he just wins] or he dies.

But looking for a Redcloak-Xykon fight is dreaming.

[Chronos]

I still say that Redcloak hates Xykon for certain events in SoD, and that it's only the driving force of the Plan that's currently keeping that hatred in check. Redcloak being who he is, it is keeping it in check, and so we won't see any move by him against Xykon while there's still any slim possibility at all of seeing the Plan through. But if that's ever done, bye-bye lich.


Is there some reason Xykon can't know Time Stop?Sorcerers have a limit to the number of spells they can know, and all of Xykon's 9th-level spells are accounted for.

[Quorothorn]

Sorcerers have a limit to the number of spells they can know, and all of Xykon's 9th-level spells are accounted for.

Really? Off the top of my head, the only 9th-level spell Xykon's tossed off is Meteor Swarm: he's min. 20th-level, so he knows 3 9th-levels. I'm guessing either I'm forgetting something or the other two showed up in SoD (which I have not yet read).

And if he's Epic, he's fairly likely to have Spell Knowledge, which means he might have more than 3.

[Chronos]

I'm guessing either I'm forgetting something or the other two showed up in SoD (which I have not yet read).The other two showed up in SoD. And what one of the spells is ties in with a significant spoiler, so let's leave it at that. Suffice to say, any 9th-level spell Xykon can cast, Redcloak can prepare against.

[Fitzclowningham]

As far as access to equipment goes, (SOD)that gem in which he put (epic level) Dorukan and Lirian had to cost a major bundle, and would probably therefore eat pretty seriously into Xykon's equipment allowance. That is, provided Rich pays any attention to the recommended equipment levels.

However, (SOD)I seem to remember Dorukan had a staff that seemed to absorb spells. Maybe Xykon nabbed it off him? I know if I were Xykon, I'd have kept all of Dorukan's stuff. Xykon also exhibited a pretty-well honed self-preservation instinct, vis. the ring that would have negated Right-Eye's sneak attack. I've got to think Xykon knows his vulnerabilities and has taken them very much into account, whether with spells, equipment, or whatever.

Disintegration is a domain (destruction) spell for Redcloak, so he only gets one of them, yes?

Finally, the idea that RC could use the Snarl against Xykon is out of the question. (SOD)All the Dark One could do with control over the gate is determine what plane the Snarl could/would go to. Dumping him on the Prime Material would be instant death to everyone, Redcloak included.

[Helios Sunshard]

If we only see the char levels, Xykon will beat redcloak in a one-one fight.
Yet, Redcloak seems to know more than Xykon about which things to do against special abilities. If RC expects to win, he will have to device a plan, draining Xykon spells, protections from their favorite spells, etc.

[Chronos]

Disintegration is a domain (destruction) spell for Redcloak, so he only gets one of them, yes?He could also put one (possibly with some small metamagic) in his 8th-level domain slot. But yes, he's sharply limited in how many he can prepare.

And Fitzclowningham, I had presumed that that was just artistic license in how Rich portrayed the battle, but you're right, the item you're alluding to does seem like a possibility. Although we've never seen Xykon using it, and it's debateable how much loot they were able to escape with from the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Fitzclowningham]

Good point, Chronos. "My body exploded. Make sure you grab all of my stuff" isn't always 100% effective.

[Theodoriph]

Not true! As an undead, he lacks a Con score, which means he uses a +0 modifier for any rolls or DCs involving Con. You may be thinking of Concentration checks, to which he may indeed apply his Cha modifier.

You're wrong. Nerdanel is correct. Xykon would use his charisma modifer for any skills, save DC's or anything else that previously incorporated his con modifier.

You actually get the choice b etween Con and Cha, but since Xykon is a sorc, and undead have a con bonus of +0, his Cha is obviously higher :smalltongue:

[Decoy Lockbox]

You're wrong. Nerdanel is correct. Xykon would use his charisma modifer for any skills, save DC's or anything else that previously incorporated his con modifier.

You actually get the choice b etween Con and Cha, but since Xykon is a sorc, and undead have a con bonus of +0, his Cha is obviously higher :smalltongue:

From the monster manual 3.5, page 317, under "Undead Type": "Uses its charisma modifier for concentration checks".

I checked under the Lich entry, and found nothing to support your claim. I could be wrong of course, but in my 9 years of playing 3rd edition I can't recall ever seeing anything that lets an undead creature use its Charisma score in the manner you are talking about.

In terms of the match up I would go with Redcloak if he has the initiative (and time to buff), or Xykon if he gets the edge in initiative. The cleric's ability to essentially know all cleric spells really comes into play in a scenario like this, as does the sorcerer's low number of spells known.

[Irbis]

Umm, Xykon: 20-22d12 hp = 135-144 hp vs 30d6 [disintegrate] at best 105.

Minimum 30-39 hp left.

Redcloak: 15d8 hp = 68 hp. vs 32d6 [MS'] 112 = So Dead.

Even if he does prepare something that will protect him from fire damage the other half of damage from the MS will kill him in first round.

Of course, if Xykon uses greater invisibility first all Redcloak can do is to wait before Xykon leisurely drains him to 0 level goblin using his other 9th level spells.

And that is assuming that Xykon doesn't have any other 9th level scrolls, like that nice black hole that disintegrates anything [evocation, like his other spells] or he won't use maximised+empowered orb of sound [120 points of unavoidable damage] - also one hit-kill, and of damage type no one protects himself from.

And to that nice person who said that their level differences doesn't count - in the case of full spellcasters, they always count. Especially if they grant seven 9th level spell slots [which is the whole point of playing full spellcasters, anyway].

9th level slots always win :smallbiggrin:

[Theodoriph]

From the monster manual 3.5, page 317, under "Undead Type": "Uses its charisma modifier for concentration checks".

I checked under the Lich entry, and found nothing to support your claim. I could be wrong of course, but in my 9 years of playing 3rd edition I can't recall ever seeing anything that lets an undead creature use its Charisma score in the manner you are talking about.

In terms of the match up I would go with Redcloak if he has the initiative (and time to buff), or Xykon if he gets the edge in initiative. The cleric's ability to essentially know all cleric spells really comes into play in a scenario like this, as does the sorcerer's low number of spells known.


It's possible it's only vampires that get it, though it was listed under the Vampire's "undeath" type on WotC's site, so I assumed it went for all undead.

[Chronos]

Even if he does prepare something that will protect him from fire damage the other half of damage from the MS will kill him in first round.The other half? At most 8d6 of Meteor Swarm's damage is from impact, and that's only if they all hit. The fire part, Redcloak can completely soak with a single second-level spell, and if it's right after the ritual, they'd be right next to each other, so Xykon would catch himself in his own blast (against which he probably doesn't have any defenses).

And Xykon has never shown any spells (other than Magic Missile) which could do any harm to someone protected by Death Ward and elemental resistances, both of which Redcloak can cast (and would, if he were expecting the fight, which he realistically would).

[brilliantlight]

I think that it is quite possible that Xykon has a few EPIC level spells by now and Redcloak doesn't.

[Lamech]

I don't think Xykon is epic, he hasn't shown anything to that effect. So we can assume level 20. Now if Redcloak is 15 at least, and he goes after Xykon well prepared he could probably kill him.

Block of details:
Redcloak takes a rod of maximization, slaps a one level metamagic on one disintigrate and nothing on the other. Thats two maximized disintigrates Next he empties a vampiric touch wands into some sort of bystandereds, like say rats. Finally Death Knell, Death Ward and some beads of Karma. Then Redcloak can walk up to Xykon and tosses two maximized disintigrates at Xykon. Xykon's fortitude save is +6, I don't think he'll make both. Nor will Xykon be able to stop Redcloak in one round.
(Or for extreme abuse empty a couple wands of Death Knells in to a bunch of horses, with the help of hogoblins. Then take a couple of clubs and smack Xykon with them. Three attacks all with absurd damage and attack bounus's; two hits would dust Xykon.)

On the flip side if Xykon goes after Redcloak, mind control the MITD and let him coup de grace Redcloak.

So who ever acts first wins.

[Lamech]

I don't think Xykon is epic, he hasn't shown anything to that effect. So we can assume level 20. Now if Redcloak is 15 at least, and he goes after Xykon well prepared he could probably kill him.

Block of details:
Redcloak takes a rod of maximization, slaps a one level metamagic on one disintigrate and nothing on the other. Thats two maximized disintigrates Next he empties a vampiric touch wands into some sort of bystandereds, like say rats. Finally Death Knell, Death Ward and some beads of Karma. Then Redcloak can walk up to Xykon and tosses two maximized disintigrates at Xykon. Xykon's fortitude save is +6, I don't think he'll make both. Nor will Xykon be able to stop Redcloak in one round.
(Or for extreme abuse empty a couple wands of Death Knells in to a bunch of horses, with the help of hogoblins. Then take a couple of clubs and smack Xykon with them. Three attacks all with absurd damage and attack bounus's; two hits would dust Xykon.)

On the flip side if Xykon goes after Redcloak, mind control the MITD and let him coup de grace Redcloak.

So who ever acts first wins.

[Green Bean]

Block of details:
Redcloak takes a rod of maximization, slaps a one level metamagic on one disintigrate and nothing on the other. Thats two maximized disintigrates Next he empties a vampiric touch wands into some sort of bystandereds, like say rats. Finally Death Knell, Death Ward and some beads of Karma. Then Redcloak can walk up to Xykon and tosses two maximized disintigrates at Xykon. Xykon's fortitude save is +6, I don't think he'll make both. Nor will Xykon be able to stop Redcloak in one round.
(Or for extreme abuse empty a couple wands of Death Knells in to a bunch of horses, with the help of hogoblins. Then take a couple of clubs and smack Xykon with them. Three attacks all with absurd damage and attack bounus's; two hits would dust Xykon.)

Also, he should pray that Xykon doesn't know Spell Turning.

[Quorothorn]

Did anyone pay attention to my "Ghostform" suggestion? :smallfrown: 50% miss chance, with Xykon's CHA modifier (probably +14) as a deflection bonus to his AC (IIRC deflection counts against touch attacks). RC's Disintegrate(s) is more likely than not to quite simply whiff, no Fort save required. Even with two of them Redcloak will not kill Xykon with Disintegrates and defensive buffs alone, unless he gets obscene die rolls (he has to avoid the 50% miss chance, beat the AC 24, have Xykon fail his save, and then roll at least moderately well on damage in order to cause real damage to Xykon with Disintegrate). A flying Xykon can get out of Destruction's range (something like 50+ ft for RC) in two-three rounds, and be well within range for most of his own attack spells. Slay Living obviously does not work in any case. So my question is, what other offensive weapons does Redcloak have?

Xykon could conceivably just Magic Missile/Maximized Magic Missile Redcloak to death (at a maximum range of at least 300 ft): he gets 9 1st-levels in a day, plus 8 4th-levels. That's 85 little bursts of 1d4+1 force damage (40 of them dealing their maximum possible damage of 5, and the rest dealing at least 2). We're talking, therefore, 290 points of damage, minimum (420, maximum), undodgeable, and unavoidable for RC as far as I know. Sure, it'll take a couple of rounds, but with Ghostform and Overland Flight both up Xykon can afford to take the time. Redcloak must either kill Xykon before the other gets a single turn (that turn consisting of casting Ghostform and moving away; he's high level enough that casting Overland Flight is probably part of his morning ritual, so no need to cast it as well), get lucky enough to penetrate Ghostform often enough to deal effective damage before he runs out of attack spells, or die by mass force damage, no matter how many defensive spells he has up (divine casters don't get Shield, correct?).

So, what should Redcloak's counter to this strategy be? I personally can't think of one off the top of my head.

Edit: Redcloak has 15d8 HP, possibly more. Let's assume 15d8 for now (INT and WIS are clearly his main stats: we don't really know the others). Averages out to in the area of 78 HP. Assuming Xykon leads with the Maximized Magic Missiles, Redcloak dies after four doses of it. So I'm now saying Xykon in Round 5, provided he reacts quickly and decisively to a buffed-out Redcloak's attack (and frankly, Xykon is not really stupid: heck, age and lichdom give him +5 to all mentals, so INT and WIS have to be solid for him). The only thing that can enable Redcloak to kill Xykon is a Destruction that hits before Xykon gets out of its range, or an incredibly lucky shot with Disintegrate.

Healing could, however, delay the inevitable, and even save Redcloak if Magic Missile is Xykon's only way of dealing damage (he just needs to cast it every third round or so). If Xykon can cause damage with any of his other spells, however, Ghostform plus Overland Flight gives him an almost assured victory IMO.

[Callos_DeTerran]

In the response to Redcloak's buffs whats to stop oh...I dunno...a force cage with Xykon waiting for them to wear off? It's not exactly hard to do. Or Greater Dispel Magic for that matter.

Red Cloak dies. He just does. Even five levels means a lot and as for the block of details, Red Cloak is an NPC and hasn't once shown himself to be a munchin (Aside from his bizarre choices of elementals) so WHY on earth would he do that?

And if rods were so easy to find why wouldn't Xykon have one? Or V?

For that matter how is he avoiding something as simple as a Symbol of Pain or Insanity for that matter? Granted Cleric=Good will save but he can fail a save just as easily as Xykon can. Red Cloak hasn't even shown any particularly powerful ability to fly!

[Irbis]

Um, it's official - Xykon is Epic spellcaster, so he can just stomp Redcloak with relatively easy/weak spell like Hellbolt [40d10 damage] or some other epic spell poor RC has no hope of avoiding/countering.

Game is over for our cleric, it seems :smallamused:

[The Extinguisher]

What's this? Xykon is epic level?

You know what that means? I was right. *does the 'I was right dance' with a 10 gallon hat and the nearest person*
Sorry. It's just not that often that I was right.

So yeah. Say Redcloak loses.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Xykon has to be epic, he can cast Cloister.

[Raging_Pacifist]

Xykon has to be epic, he can cast Cloister.

[Nargrakhan]

Heh... Xykon has been holding back.

Which makes sense. You don't reveal ALL your cards until you need too.

However I'm sure Redcloak has a few surprises of his own.

That's what makes 'em both so cool. :smallsmile:

Now I wonder what goodies Tsukiko has hidden under her dress... err... I mean hidden under her sleeves!!! :smallredface:

[Lupy]

In the plot Redcloak would own, because despite being on the other side I think he is more of a good-guy than Oots.

Mechanically, Redcloak. Ok, Red can hold is own with rebuke for a while, and he has blade barrier of 15s6 if he can find a cave or something (I dont play Halo). Xykon cant defeat him, because he is going to shoot through the blade barrier, and Xykon cant.

Additionally, ok. MitD and Roaches walk in and see:

Redcloak against a wall bleeding, shooting away with everything he's got in obvious pain. Xykon laughing hysterically and cutting Redcloak up. MitD rushes Xykon and turns him into mincemeat.

Xykon is Epic... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)

[The Extinguisher]

Lich turn resistance and epic levels.

Ghostform, etc. Also, why can't he shoot through it?

SoD Spoiler:
[spoiler]The MitD is programed to eat Redcloak if the goblin ever betrays Xykon.[/spoilers]

So no. Xykon wins. At least in these cases.

[Inhuman Bot]

No need to read it. Xykon. Epic level lich vs. High level (but non-epic) goblin cleric. If he breaks the phylacatary then Xykon is okay until his body is destroyed. Also he was shown to have the ability to rip his spine out and beat him with it. (well, not shown but at least strong enough to be concevabley be able to threaten it and can throw a pair of goblins out a window.

Okay now that I've read the thread: Xykon must have a rouge-ish hp (all of the lich might balance it out to about d6). Also note: Gate opens:
:redcloak: Well what now? (begins to prep for his killing of Xykon)
:xykon: Well, I was thinking that since I don't reall need you anymore...*snap* cracks redcloaks neck. He did it to Lirian, he can do it to redcloak. We have to assume theat Xykon's necklace( I THINK he has one at least) does something. He might have had some lower level loot stashed in his back-up fortress. He probaly found a bit of loot in AC. He could get redcloak to make magic items for him, around now, much before the encounter. THAT is unlkely as look at his first scheme in SoD for example. We really have to assume that xykon doesn't flub hs saves and has damage or spells used already. What would likely happen( it seems)
:redcloak: Disenigrate!
:xykon: Energy drain. Hey Mitd. eat redcloak.
:redcloak: ugh! uh.. planeshift!
:xykon: made my save. And energy drain.
:redcloak: summon monster 7!
:xykon: Energy drain.
:redcloak: cure... cir..ical..
:xykon: *snaps recloaks neck* dissmissal. I now have a gate. Tra-la-la happy day.

[Flubadubdub]

I was about to say that this is all assumptions on levels, and that considering months have past since we've seen either red cloak or xykon, there really is no point on arguing this. On top of that, it has been proven that xykon is epic.

I'm not gonna say for sure it would be won by xykon, but an epic level lich with the amount of extra levels we have guessed him to have over red cloak is probably pretty close to a sure thing.

Finally, remember that after the original encounter with the oots, people labelled xykon waaaaaay lower level than he actually is. Who's to say xykon couldn't possibly be level 22 or 23 even? (I know, highly unlikely, but ya never know)

[Chronos]

Yes, on the one hand, Xykon is epic level. But on the other hand, Redcloak is wearing a greater artifact. Artifacts are beyond the level of even epic spellcasters, and if my suspicions about the Crimson Mantle's powers are correct, it would come close to guaranteeing a win for the green guy. At the very least, we know that the Mantle gives its wearer at least some epic spellcasting ability, so they're actually even on that score.

[Irbis]

@Chronos:

Like what, exactly? So far, mantle was shown to provide its wearer with one little spell. Yep, that will certainly kill Epic spellcaster. Except, you know, it won't - previous bearers were killed by mid-level paladins and this one was almost killed by paladins, three times. If it was so powerful it would have certainly helped him, not wait for deus-ex-machina. :smallsigh:

[Zordrath]

How anyone can argue that Redcloak could actually defeat Xykon is beyond me... especially if you have read SoD - you couldn't be more clear in stating that Redcloak is utterly afraid of Xykon, which he would'nt be if they possessed similiar amounts of power.

[Raging_Pacifist]

How anyone can argue that Redcloak could actually defeat Xykon is beyond me... especially if you have read SoD - you couldn't be more clear in stating that Redcloak is utterly afraid of Xykon, which he would'nt be if they possessed similiar amounts of power.

You can be afraid of anything regardless of power.

[factotum]

How anyone can argue that Redcloak could actually defeat Xykon is beyond me... especially if you have read SoD - you couldn't be more clear in stating that Redcloak is utterly afraid of Xykon, which he would'nt be if they possessed similiar amounts of power.


By that logic, Right-Eye must have possessed similar amounts of power to Xykon because he wasn't afraid of him...don't think that was really the case, do you?

[The Extinguisher]

It's not that the abscene of fear means he's as powerful, but that Redcloak wouldn't need to fear Xykon if he was as powerful.

[Zordrath]

It's not that the abscene of fear means he's as powerful, but that Redcloak wouldn't need to fear Xykon if he was as powerful.
Exactly.



By that logic, Right-Eye must have possessed similar amounts of power to Xykon because he wasn't afraid of him...don't think that was really the case, do you?

Oh, Right-Eye WAS afraid of him. He at first respected and revered his powers, then he followed him as a minion. When he realized what a jerk the guy was, he tried to get others to kill him. When he failed, he ran away and hid. Upon Xykon's return, he followed him again, out of fear for his own death and that of his family. Only when he had nothing more to lose and a good opportunity arose to stab Xykon in the back, he rebelled against him. Redcloak, however, still HAS something to lose - his plan.

[Chronos]

Like what, exactly? So far, mantle was shown to provide its wearer with one little spell.Little? No Epic spell is little. And while the one epic spell we know is associated with the Mantle isn't much use in combat, neither is the one epic spell we know Xykon can cast. If we're going to go assuming that Xykon might have others, then we might as well assume that the Mantle might have others, too.

[Irbis]

Little? No Epic spell is little. And while the one epic spell we know is associated with the Mantle isn't much use in combat, neither is the one epic spell we know Xykon can cast. If we're going to go assuming that Xykon might have others, then we might as well assume that the Mantle might have others, too.

An epic spell that cannot protect its bearer from no-name low-level paladin sucks. Plain and simple. Aspecially if you are going to use it against Epic Lich. :smallsigh:

As for the other point - yessss, items are known for their capacity to learn entire spellbook, as casters do. Well, except, you know, not. :smallamused: Care to point at even one item in the SRD or DMG with even one, much less two, epic spells?

And can you post the name of that epic spell because we are apparently thinking about a different spells?

[Lupy]

What if the mantle has a massively powerful spell than could kill any one thing that has been saved for generations, but RC will use it on him. =P
This is D&D after all.

[David Argall]

What if the mantle has a massively powerful spell than could kill any one thing that has been saved for generations, but RC will use it on him. =P
This is D&D after all.

What if we just ignore all the evidence and decide it by a coin flip?

No, this sort of god-call is not an acceptable solution.

[Chronos]

And can you post the name of that epic spell because we are apparently thinking about a different spells?No, because I don't know what it's called. But the ritual which shifts control of a Gate to the Dark One must be epic.

And no, no mere magic item can contain an epic spell. The Crimson Mantle is not a mere magic item. The rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells) explicitly say that artifacts can contain epic spells:
Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

[sikyon]

I'm giving it to Redcloak. Xykon is a sorceror (weaker than cleric) and while epic level seems to have chosen his spell selection poorly. Redcloak, on the other hand, is smart and might be able to optimize his way to victory over an unoptimized but epic level lich.

Epic level magic is also either really bad, or really good. In Xykon's case it looks like the anwser is really bad, but it doesn't show because he's not fighting epic level encounters.

[Emmerson Grant]

I'd say Redcloak.
Xykon has won two major battles against good guys because they were playing with the good guy playbook. Dorukan dropped his guard a second and started to upchuck levels. Eugene's master was more interested in explaining how to beat him than actually beating him.


If they fight, Redcloak will fight dirtier than any other NPC. While Xykon uses the sledgehammer approach, Redcloak is the poster child of surgical, strategical strikes.

Plus the Crimson Mantle and the fact that he holds the phylactery. The second Xykon is no longer useful to Redcloak, he'll be lich-busted.

[ChoaticEvilGuy]

Xykon would win because in Start of Darkness he charmed the Monster in the Darkness into making him eat Redcloak and spit out the amulet he wears if he ever betrays him

[ChoaticEvilGuy]

I'd say Redcloak.
Xykon has won two major battles against good guys because they were playing with the good guy playbook. Dorukan dropped his guard a second and started to upchuck levels. Eugene's master was more interested in explaining how to beat him than actually beating him.


If they fight, Redcloak will fight dirtier than any other NPC. While Xykon uses the sledgehammer approach, Redcloak is the poster child of surgical, strategical strikes.

Plus the Crimson Mantle and the fact that he holds the phylactery. The second Xykon is no longer useful to Redcloak, he'll be lich-busted.

what about Roy? How did he die

[factotum]

I'd say Redcloak.
Xykon has won two major battles against good guys because they were playing with the good guy playbook.

So you're ignoring the occasions where Xykon has shown himself to be perfectly capable of playing dirty? For example, the Symbol of Insanity on the bouncy ball that took out a roomful of paladins? I think you massively underestimate how devious Xykon is!

[David Argall]

If they fight, Redcloak will fight dirtier than any other NPC. While Xykon uses the sledgehammer approach, Redcloak is the poster child of surgical, strategical strikes.

SoD Redcloak has seen Xykon win when his foe tried to fight dirty. He has no hope that he can out dirty Xykon.



Plus the Crimson Mantle and the fact that he holds the phylactery. The second Xykon is no longer useful to Redcloak, he'll be lich-busted.

Xykon treats Redcloak as a nothing, and Redcloak takes it. Every fact we get shows Xykon is the big stud, and Redcloak is his toy.

Redcloak is simply not going to rebel and if he does, the lich will waste him.

[Zordrath]

Epic level magic is also either really bad, or really good. In Xykon's case it looks like the anwser is really bad, but it doesn't show because he's not fighting epic level encounters.
SoD:
He did fight (and crush) Dorukan, an epic level mage who prepared for the battle for months.

Also, people are giving Xykon too little credit here, I think. When that guy started to fight dirty, even RC was disgusted.

[Emmerson Grant]

what about Roy? How did he die

His overconfidence in his fighting abilities and his ancestral sword made him forget he can't fly.

[Emmerson Grant]

So you're ignoring the occasions where Xykon has shown himself to be perfectly capable of playing dirty? For example, the Symbol of Insanity on the bouncy ball that took out a roomful of paladins? I think you massively underestimate how devious Xykon is!

That was not dirty fighting, that was expeditiousness. And even then, when faced with the ghosts of the guard he wasn't canny enough to figure out how to beat them. Redcloak had to tell him how, and even then, they were almost killed by the ghost of Lord Soon. Xykon has no head for the fine points of spells and powers and Redcloak does. Besides, we don't know what other powers and advantages the Crimson Mantle gives him.

Redcloak knows he has to kill Xykon for a lot of reasons (chief among them the way he made him kill and raise his brother). I'm sure he's researching how many ways an epic lich can be killed and he'll wait until he calls the dark lord to do that. Hell, he could ask the dark one to deal with Xykon.

I'm certain that, if they fought, Redcloak would emerge victorious.

Now, regarding the plot and the way the story will go:

Redcloak won't get the chance. It wouldn't do for the story to have the BBEG be killed by his Number 2. Xykon will, at some point, have one of those Plot Induced Moments of Clarity and slay him when The Plot requires it.

[Ceaon]

Announcer:
In the left corner, Xykon, undead Lich lv 21+ sorcerer with a CR equal to or higher than 23!
In the right corner, Red Cloak, goblin lv 15+ cleric with a CR equal to or higher than 15!

Xykon has good HP, a good fortitude save due to adding his high Charisma modifier, a good will save and some very nifty magic items to protect his undead body. He focuses on direct damage!
Redcloak is an armorless Cleric with the Destruction domain. He has decent HP, fort and will saves and has one artifact! He too, seems to focus on direct damage!

Let the game begin!

Crowd:
This is not a match! It's a slaughter!

Announcer:
But wait, what is this?
A big umbrella'd monster came up on the stage and ATE Redcloak!
This means Xykon is winner by default!

Crowd:
...WHAT?

Also, for an example why the X beats Y, Z beats X, Z beats Y argument doesn't work: Paper beats Rock, Rock beast Scissors...

Also also, if you read SoD and still feel Redcloak would win in a one on one fight, I'd like to hear why, because I can't see how.

[David Argall]

we don't know what other powers and advantages the Crimson Mantle gives him.

We have no reason to think them important here. Redcloak does not have an impressive record in combat. And given his near death at the hands of Miko, we can hardly say he is holding back for the right time or anything. So we have to assume the Mantle has no important combat bonuses we have not seen in action.


SoDRedcloak knows he has to kill Xykon for a lot of reasons (chief among them the way he made him kill and raise his brother). I'm sure he's researching how many ways an epic lich can be killed and he'll wait until he calls the dark lord to do that. Hell, he could ask the dark one to deal with Xykon.

Since this argument deals with SoD, it should be spoilered. Xykon didn't make Redcloak kill his brother. Redcloak would like to think of it that way of course, but the act was Redcloak's.
And that is one of the reasons Redcloak is simply not going to attack Xykon under any likely circumstances. He is simply too dedicated to the plan. As long as Xykon is working towards that goal too [and we can see no reason for him to stop], Redcloak is his slave.
Practically, the death of Right-Eye is a powerful warning that Redcloak had better not try anything. Right-Eye was a skilled rogue, the sort of guy who ought to be able to pull something devious over on the lich. He failed utterly, his deep secret plot twisted by Exkon into a test for Redcloak to show his loyalty. And Redcloak was ignorant of the whole thing. What chance does Redcloak to do better? One can just see him pulling out his lich-killing tactic and it totally failing, with Xykon saying "I demagiced that thing a year ago. Now get back to work."

Redcloak is not going to fight Xykon, and will lose badly if he ever does

[Random Guy]

Y'all have to remember that they have all likely gained several levels since SoD.

[Chronos]

Redcloak will absolutely not turn on Xykon before the Plan is complete, nor will Xykon turn on Redcloak. They need each other. That's why I was assuming in my scenario that the fight occurs after the completion of the Plan, in which case, Redcloak would absolutely turn on Xykon.

As for the powers of the Crimson Mantle, it's my suspicion that one of its powers is to guarantee that the wearer always makes any saving throw. This wouldn't make much difference versus paladins, such as Miko or those who hunted down the previous Bearers, but it would make a huge difference versus a spellcaster like Xykon. Mind you, this is speculation, but it does seem consistent with the facts.

Again, the epic side of the equation is balanced: We know that both characters have epic capabilities, but none of the epic capabilities we know of on either side are all that useful in a one-on-one combat. They both might or might not have other epic capabilities, but any of those, on either side, are pure speculation.

So that means that all we can judge on is their non-epic capabilities, and despite their difference in levels, Redcloak has a near-perfect defense against any given offensive tactic that Xykon might use, while Xykon does not have equivalent defenses against the tactics that Redcloak might use. If Redcloak already has up Death Ward and a couple of Resist or Protection from Energy spells before the battle (as he would have, if he were planning in advance for the battle, which he would), then the worst that Xykon could do to him would be Maximized Magic Missile, and he's easily got the HP to soak up those for a few rounds. Meanwhile, Xykon has no real defense at all against Heal or Disintegrate: Even if he Ghostforms into a wall, he'd still have to come out to cast anything, at which point Redcloak can also cast.