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GimliFett
2008-02-18, 11:36 AM
When does Manyshot equal and exceed Rapid Shot? It seems to me it's not really useful until 11th level? And even then you're better off just using iterative attacks instead of Manyshot? I could use some enlightenment, folks.

Thanks!

Zincorium
2008-02-18, 11:41 AM
When does Manyshot equal and exceed Rapid Shot? It seems to me it's not really useful until 11th level? And even then you're better off just using iterative attacks instead of Manyshot? I could use some enlightenment, folks.

Thanks!

Rapid shot = Full round action
Manyshot = Standard action

That's why you'd want manyshot as well, for those situations when you've got something else to do that round.

Spiryt
2008-02-18, 11:45 AM
Manyshot have only range of 30ft. That's enough for me. The point of archery is range.

Of course there can be problem with that if your Gm treats name "Dungeons and Dragons" too literally.

Angelmaker
2008-02-18, 11:47 AM
I donīt think there is a "better" in thisd case.

Manyshot ( if I remember correctly ) letīs you loosen one more arrow per 5 levels/BAB(?) on a target, within 30 feet, where as rapid shot grants an additionla attack at a -2 penalty to all attacks within that round.

I donīt know - but I canīt find a good way to compare two such totally different feats.

But, in terms of "what COULD be done"...

With Manyshots you could unload ALL your arrows before the enemies initiative, thus, with a lucky blow, deliver enough damage to precent any attacks on you. If thatīs noot good, I dunno.

Seriously - all about style, me thinks.

Angelmaker
2008-02-18, 11:47 AM
I donīt think there is a "better" in thisd case.

Manyshot ( if I remember correctly ) letīs you loosen one more arrow per 5 levels/BAB(?) on a target, within 30 feet, where as rapid shot grants an additionla attack at a -2 penalty to all attacks within that round.

I donīt know - but I canīt find a good way to compare two such totally different feats.

But, in terms of "what COULD be done"...

With Manyshots you could unload ALL your arrows before the enemies initiative, thus, with a lucky blow, deliver enough damage to precent any attacks on you. If thatīs noot good, I dunno.

Seriously - all about style, me thinks.

Frosty
2008-02-18, 11:54 AM
(Improved) Manyshot isn't bad. you need to be within 30 ft to do skirmish damage anyways.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-18, 11:55 AM
When does Manyshot equal and exceed Rapid Shot? It seems to me it's not really useful until 11th level? And even then you're better off just using iterative attacks instead of Manyshot? I could use some enlightenment, folks.

Thanks!

If your a Scout: Rapid Shot is pointless.
Manyshot lets you skirmish. In fact, the Greater Manyshot lets you skirmish/Sneak attack on every arrow (very nice feat). Which is not usually gained till level 9 for Scouts (due to bab). But due to other feats it could be 12th (depends on if meet requisites early).

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-18, 12:13 PM
Manyshot doesn't pin you in place- tactically, it's more useful, because you can move away if the Big Gribbly Chompy Thing is getting a bit close for comfort and still let loose a hail of shots towards it.

Frosty
2008-02-18, 12:16 PM
If your a Scout: Rapid Shot is pointless.
Manyshot lets you skirmish. In fact, the Greater Manyshot lets you skirmish/Sneak attack on every arrow (very nice feat). Which is not usually gained till level 9 for Scouts (due to bab). But due to other feats it could be 12th (depends on if meet requisites early).

Well usually you'd have rapid shot anyways because if you're a scout, you most likely also take 15 or 16 levels of Ranger.

Karaswanton
2008-02-18, 12:41 PM
What? No.
Scout is way better than Ranger.

It has skirmish, blind sight, better skills/level.
What does Ranger offer? A few bonus feats--oh wait, so does Scout. Plus the Ranger feats are mostly incompatible with skirmish.

Some spells..which you don't care about.
An animal companion which you don't care about either, or at least you shouldn't because it is weak as all get out and will die on you. If you cared about Animal Companion you'd go druid.
The only reason you'd go go Ranger for a Scout build would be if you took a one level dip for martial weapon proficiency, took Favored Enemy: Undead, and took that feat that lets you skirmish your favored enemies even when they are immune to Sneak Attack.

Zincorium
2008-02-18, 12:51 PM
Scout/Ranger with swift hunter is dramatically better than plain old scout. Mostly due to the fact that it has a much higher base attack bonus, but also due to the fact that rangers have spells- and very good spells if you have the spell compendium.

Draz74
2008-02-18, 02:14 PM
The only reason you'd go go Ranger for a Scout build would be if you took a one level dip for martial weapon proficiency, took Favored Enemy: Undead, and took that feat that lets you skirmish your favored enemies even when they are immune to Sneak Attack.

Well, that feat -- Swift Hunter -- is indeed the main reason you'd dip Ranger levels with a Scout. Without that feat, the dip probably wouldn't be worth it.

But with the feat, everything Zincorium said is true. Plus, you seem to have forgotten that, with Swift Hunter, Ranger levels also give you Skirmish.

Ranger 4 / Scout 16 (or 2/18, I suppose) with Swift Hunter is still viable too, if you care that much about the Blind Sight/extra skill points/Disable Device skill stuff. Especially if you don't have the supplements with good Ranger spells. The two builds are pretty equal.

Frosty
2008-02-18, 02:20 PM
Blindsense can be gotten from items I believe. Skirmish is advanced by Ranger as well with Swift Hunter. And I like having favored enemies on undead, constructs, abberations (for oozes and such), and Elementals. now I can skirmish everything!

Keld Denar
2008-02-18, 02:31 PM
Yeah, ranger based Swift Hunters are most definitely better IMO than scout based Swift Hunters. The primary reason is BAB. A Scout4/Ranger16 or Scout3/Ranger17 (for HiPS) finishes with 19/20 BAB, very important for progressing Multishot. And hey, don't knock Ranger Spells. Opening combat with Hunter's Eye Greater Multishot could very well close it. Lion's Pounce is great for TWF Swift Hunters, as you have moved (charge) and you get a full attack with both weapons getting skirmish on everything. There are ton's of awesome things you can do with all that BAB. Snakes Swiftness is also an awesome especially if you aren't already hasted from something. Or cast it on your animal companion for extra dire kitty grapply goodness.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-18, 02:39 PM
Ranger has full BAB, Scout has 3/4 BAB... there's one reason right there why I'd rather play Ranger. Another being the higher HD. Oh, and those 'worthless' spells also includes Cure Light Wounds, which means you can use them in wands to work as emergency backup healer when you need to as well...

Personally, not such a big fan of Skirmish. 'I get to add a little bit of precision damage, but only if I keep myself from being able to make a full attack...'. I'd rather go with a Rogue/Ranger combo.

Frosty
2008-02-18, 03:01 PM
Lussmanj: If you want pounce, you'd probably dip one level into Barbarian instead. Better than using an action to cast a spell. With a swift action freed up, you can then use it for Travel devotion and be able to charge every single round.

TheLost: With Greater manyshot, you can shoot all of your arrows without a full-attack. There are many ways to get all of your attacks off even while moving.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-18, 03:34 PM
If it's wands you're after, a 1- or 2-level dip lets you use them to full effect, doesn't it?