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Ghal Marak
2008-02-18, 12:44 PM
Here is some fluff-


-Scroll penned by Lord Cruven, famed explorer, on the ‘Symbiote’ creature-

The Symbiote is an interesting organism. I first discovered it (or should I say them?) in a remote region of the world, possessed by the various tribes found therein. Members of the tribes that possessed the Symbiote were usually worshiped as gods, rather erroneously considering that I have not found the Symbiote to be divine in any way.

The Symbiote on it’s own varies greatly in appearance, dependant wholly upon they type. They can do very little on their own, and require a host body in order to feed, I would assume. I have yet to discover what the Symbiotes actually feed upon, or if the feeding process has any detrimental effect on the host body. Further investigation is being carried out in that regard, and should prove most fascinating.

Regardless, the affect the Symbiote has on its host’s body is most astounding. Generally, the physical abilities of the host body are augmented, developing a rough hide to protect its host and accelerating the healing processes. As far as my studies have gone, I have witnessed no detrimental side effects from the ‘symbiosis’ with the Symbiote and humans (as a side note, there was no pun intended). Whether it is the same with non-humans remains to be seen.

Of particular note is the fact that they are not present at all times. Bizarrely, once a host is bonded with the Symbiote the Symbiote disappears under the host’s skin. Where exactly it resides has yet to be determined, and an autopsy of a host does not seem to be a viable solution. Acquiring the body from the locals would be most troublesome, and would likely end in our deaths. The host ‘calls forth’ the Symbiote somehow, to lend them their strength. After a little time, the Symbiote disappears again. The length of the Manifestation seems to correlate with the overall hardiness of the host.

Recently, we have discovered that there are in fact several different types of Symbiotes. The type of which seems to correlate with its function. So far, I have documented the following types:

- The first Symbiote subtype I discovered was the ‘Brute’ Symbiote. Its manifestation appears to be rough, heavy gauntlets made of bone. This bone material extends up both arms to the shoulders, and is flexible at the joints thanks to gaps in said bone allowing for everyday movement. The personality of the Brute host tends to change when manifesting the Symbiote, turning thuggish and dull-witted. It also bestows upon the host a most fearsome strength, of which the host can employ to great use upon the battlefield.

- The ‘Carver’ Symbiote was the next type I discovered. This one took the form of a pair of gauntlets as well, but very sleek and smooth instead of rough like the Brute. It is equipped a vicious set of razor sharp claws, as well as a myriad of other sharp points and blades. It also seems to enhance the reflexes of the host to a degree, adding overall to the reflexes. The hosts of the Carver Symbiotes that I have documented all delighted in cruelty and inflicting pain whilst manifesting their Symbiotes. Some of them expressed to me their disliking of what it does to their heads, a trait I find most troubling.

- The ‘Swift’ Symbiote was the hardest to track down of all the subtypes. It covers both legs of the host with thin, chitinous material that provides excellent traction. The Swift type grants a phenomenal increase in speed and agility to the host, so much that I can safely say I’ve never seen anything faster that a Swift type before. The chitinous material that covers the legs upon manifestation displays outgrowths that superficialy resembles tiny wings. The exact placement of the ‘wings’ is different for each host.

- The ‘Oracle’ Symbiote is by far the Symbiote I least understood. It is manifests on the head of the host, almost like a fully enclosed helm. Where the eyes were is usually a single slit where the host can see out, but I have seen as many as five slits in various different intersections. The mouth and nose are completely sealed off, though there is no apparent harm to the host. This ‘helm’ is usually smooth and shiny, though still bone white like the others. Of the subtypes, this one displayed the most diverse array of abnormalities. Some had horns, spikes, what looked like wings, and all kinds of different designs. No two were the same.

- The ‘Spirit’ Symbiote was the last type I have discovered during my travels. It fits over the torso of the host, much like a breastplate. Despite the designator I have bestowed upon the type, its affect on the host body is purely physical in nature. The host of a Spirit Symbiote becomes even tougher than the other types, and can come back from even the most lethal injuries. One sworn testimony said they can even come back from the dead! Undocumented, but worth investigating


So ends my findings on this strangest of creatures, here in the northern mountain range. Nonetheless, I will continue my search for more of these Symbiotes and their various sub-types. Perhaps there could be potential for military purposes? Ultimately that would depend on how well they could be controlled. I will seek this answer out as well. Thank you for your time.

Lord Cruven, Explorer




A bit of info before you read on. In the world that I am making (see sig), Symbiote Masters are not looked upon too kindly by 'civilized society'. Outside of the tribes of humans who use them, Symbiote Masters are no more liked than Lycanthropes. Which is to say not at all. A Kill-On-Sight kind of thing, if you will. I designed it with that in mind, where you don't want to walk around with it manifested all the time. Which explains the penalties for turning it off. However, if you don't like that, it can be easily switched out for less harsh penalties and a #/day manifestation system. Feel free to modify anything else about it if you feel like it.

Symbiote Master


Adventures: The Symbiote Master adventures to both unlock the potential of their Symbiote and to learn how to exert better control over it through experience and dedication.
Alignment: Any. Anyone who can bond with one of the five special Symbiotes can become a Symbiote Master, and more than a few unscrupulous types have already done so.
Religion: Symbiote Masters have no need for religion, as they rely upon themselves and their Symbiote to survive. Whether they pray to any one god over another is entirely up to them.
Background: The road to becoming a Symbiote Master is both challenging and rigorous. The only known locations of the Symbiotes are in the mountain monasteries in the far north, where the various tribes there war with one another using small groups of Symbiote Masters. In order to bond to a Symbiote, a potential host must convince one of the tribes to allow access to the Bonding Chamber. The attendant then leads the potential host through the steps necessary to become a Symbiote Master. If they fail the bonding process, they are consumed by the Symbiote’s will and become a mindless monster, which is immediately slain by the attendant.
Other Classes: Symbiote Masters do not get along well with the other classes, who almost uniformly view them with disgust. Bonding and Manifesting the Symbiote isn’t a pretty sight, so it is only natural they would revile these strange warriors.
Role: The role a Symbiote master plays changes depending on which Symbiote they bond with. The Brute and Carver symbiotes would delegate the Symbiote Master to a combat role. Swift and Oracle types are more than likely going to be spell casters or Rouges, and thus have roles acording to previous class. Spirit types are particularly suited to a combat role as well, with their hardiness. That type also works well for barbarians.

Game Rule Information

Requirements:
Bab: +6
Fort: +5
Feat: Iron Will
Race: Human
Special: Must have bonded with one of the five special Symbiote types in order to take levels in this class. Convincing one of the tribes to allow you to bond with one is an entirely different matter, and can be the focus of an adventure of it’s own.


Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8, d6, d12 (see Symbiote Subjugation)
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str)
Skill Points: (2+Int Modifier)
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+0| Symbiote Subjugation, Symbiote Manifestation, Mind of it’s own

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+0| Ability Increase: +2

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+1| Symbiote Augmentation

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+1| Ability Increase: +4

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+2| Symbiote Perfection[/table]


Symbiote Subjugation: To become a Symbiote Master, the prospective Master must suppress the will of the Symbiote and force it to do their bidding. The Subjugation happens upon first bonding with the symbiote and grants access to the symbiote’s abilities if they succeed the resulting battle of wills. All Symbiote Masters automatically gain Toughness as a bonus feat upon subjugation of the symbiote. The actual will battle with the symbiote should be handled by the DM, and should not be easy. It can be a will save, though just as easily the DM could decide to actualy make them battle the Symbiote inside the host's mind. The Hit Dice of the class is dependant on which Symbiote type is selected. Brute and Carver have d8 Hit Dice, Swift and Oracle have d6 Hit Dice, and Spirit has d12 Hit Dice.

Symbiote Manifestation: In order to use the abilities granted to them by their Symbiote, the Master needs to manifest the Symbiote, which is normally lays unseen under the skin. Manifesting the symbiote can be done any number of times per day, with the limitations below. Manifesting the Symbiote takes a full-round action, and lasts for 5 rounds + Ability Mod based on the type of Symbiote. Brute is based on Str, Carver is based on Dex, Swift is based on Int, Oracle is based on Wis, and Spirit based on Con.

A Symbiote Master may prematurely end the manifestation; though the symbiote will do it’s best to fight the change back. To prematurely end the symbiote manifestation, the Symbiote Master must succeed at a Will test (DC 15 + 1/2 Character Level). If the Manifestation was forcefully brought to an end, the Symbiote Master automatically becomes Dazed for 5 rounds.

As long as the symbiote is manifested, the Master gains abilities based on their symbiote type, which improves as they gain levels-

-Brute types gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Power Attack as bonus feats, dealing 1d6 + 1-1/2 Strength Mod Bludgeoning damage. As the Brute Master gains levels, their unarmed attack increases in damage dice as their strength continues to build. At 2nd level of Symbiote Master the damage done improves to 1d8. At 3rd it improves to 1d12 and counts as a Magical Weapon for bypassing Damage Reduction. At 4th it improves to 2d8, and at 5th it finishes at 2d10. Also gained on 5th level, their Unarmed Strike now counts as Adamantium for bypassing Damage Reduction and the Hardness of objects.

-Carver types gain Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, dealing 1d4 + Dex Mod Slashing or Piercing damage, and may make an additional attack at their maximum attack bonus -5. As the Carver Master gains levels, their unarmed attacks increase in damage dice as their wicked claws ever increase in sharpness. At 2nd level of Carver Master the damage done improved to 1d6. At 3rd it improves to 1d8 and now counts as a Magic Weapon for bypassing damage reduction. At 4th it improves to 2d6, and at 5th it finishes at 2d8. Also gained on 5th level, their unarmed attacks now count as Adamantium for bypassing Damage Reduction and the Hardness of objects. They also get another attack at their Base Attack Bonus –10 (ending with two extra attacks at –5 and at –10, usable with unarmed attacks only).

-Swift types gain a +5 speed bonus and the Skill Focus (Jump) and Run feats, as well as Evasion and a dodge bonus to AC equal to their Symbiote Master level x2. Their speed increases as they gain experience, increasing to +15 at 2nd level, +30 at 3rd level. At 4th level it increases to +60 as well as gaining Improved Evasion. At 5th level it stops at +120. Additionally, at 5th level they may run across water and up walls (both must end on solid surface or they fall). Swift Master levels add to caster levels, and give two increases at 2nd and 4th as if they had gained a level in their previous arcane spellcasting class, if applicable.

-Oracle types gain Low-Light Vision and the Skill Focus (Spot). As they increase in level, their visual acuity as well as overall awareness dramatically increases. At 2nd level Oracle Masters gain Darkvision out to 60ft and a +4 bonus to Spot checks. At 3rd level they gain Tremor sense to 30feet. At 4th level they gain Blindsight to 60ft and their spot check bonus increases to +8. At 5th level they come close to the ability to see into the future, as a result they get a +10 bonus to Initiative and a +5 insight bonus to AC. Oracle Master levels add to caster levels, and give two increases at 2nd and 4th as if they had gained a level in their previous divine spellcasting class, if applicable.

-Spirit types gain a Natural Armor bonus to AC equal to their Con Mod and Improved Toughness as a bonus feat. At 2nd level they gain Damage Reduction 5/+1 and have Light Fortification (Ex). At 3rd level their Damage Reduction improves to 10/Adamantine. At 4th level their Damage Reduction further improves to 15/- and gains Medium Fortification (Ex). At 5th level they gain Regeneration 1 (Ex). They re-grow any lost body parts within 3d6 rounds or instantly by sticking the severed appendage upon its stump. They are damaged normally by Acid and Fire.

Mind of it’s own: Normally, the symbiote is docile and responds to the will of the Symbiote Master. However, if it senses the host (and therefore itself) is about to die, it will suddenly explode into action and try to gain control of the host’s body. When the Symbiote Master reaches 0 Hp or less the symbiote will make a bid for complete control. A Will check of DC 10 + Symbiote Master level is made to resist the symbiote’s efforts. If it is passed, nothing happens. If it is failed though, the symbiote takes over the body. It completely envelops the host’s body, and changes it into a Symbiote Spawn with full Hp. This process is permanent, and the host can only be changed back by slaying the Spawn and


Ability Increase: The Ability score linked to the Symbiote type (as mentioned in Symbiote Manifestation) increases when this ability is gained. At 2nd level the ability indicated by the symbiote type is increased by +2. At 4th level it is again increased by 2, for a final total of +4.

Symbiote Augmentation: The time required and ease of manifesting changes as the Symbiote Master gets used to their bond. The time to manifest is reduced to a Move action and the duration is increased to 15 rounds + Ability Mod. However, the penalties when it is forced to end are also increased as a result. Instead of Dazed, they become Stunned for 5 rounds when they force the manifestation to end. In addition to the above, the Symbiote Master also gets Improved Toughness as a bonus Feat. Meeting the prerequisites for this is not required.

Symbiote Perfection: The Symbiote Master is finally worthy of the name, as their dominance of the Symbiote is finally complete. Manifesting the symbiote is now a Swift Action, and lasts until they force it to end. The penalty for doing this, however, is quite steep. Forcing the manifestation to end renders the Symbiote Master Unconscious unless they make a Fortitude save equal to (15 + 2/per 24 hours spent manifested). This lasts for 5 rounds + an addition 5 rounds for every 24 hours spent manifested. (So in order to exit the manifestation, you have to make a Will save to end it, then make a Fort save to stay conscious.)

Ghal Marak
2008-02-22, 01:26 AM
Well, short on mechanics and long on fluff. And not quite in the right places either. :smallfrown:

Anywho, I have a few questions. The most promenent of them is can I just turn it back into a regular class, but keep it at 10 levels? 'Cause I can't imagine stretching everything over an additional ten levels. And then, if I do (finaly) decide to keep it as a PRC, what would be some resonable requirements? I was toying around with the idea of making a special feat that was nessisary to get into it, but I just couldn't figure out a good one.

Really, I could use some feed back on what little I have so far. Just for everybodys information, I plan on expanding upon the abilities granted by the ARMS Awakening through the ARMS evolution. I just can't decide on whether to advance the Natural armor or not.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-27, 10:13 PM
Darn, this is harder than I thought it would be. So nobody has any suggestions for this thing? Or is it I just haven't added enough information yet?

Lappy9000
2008-02-27, 11:23 PM
It wouldn't hurt to add some more info. The adventurers, alignment, religion, background, yadda, yadda sections are kinda lacking and those areas help give people a scope of who members of this prestige class are.

So is ARMS an acronym for something? Unfortunatly, you really do need some more information and fluff or it's difficult to see what you're aiming for.

Lappy9000
2008-02-27, 11:30 PM
I just had an idea, ever heard of the Symbiote type from the Eberron Campaign? It had a bunch of cool stuff like living breastplates and tentacle whips which infused themselves into the user.

The user took constitution damage while donning the armor, and symbiots have ego as well. So there's the possibility of conflicting ego if the user and the symbiote have different alignments.

That's all I got for now, sadly.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-27, 11:51 PM
It wouldn't hurt to add some more info. The adventurers, alignment, religion, background, yadda, yadda sections are kinda lacking and those areas help give people a scope of who members of this prestige class are.

So is ARMS an acronym for something? Unfortunatly, you really do need some more information and fluff or it's difficult to see what you're aiming for.

...I'm not quite sure. It has been a while since I've read the manga, and it dosen't say on the Wikipedia article. Though as I said before, it's a placeholder name.

I know about the fluff problem. I need to write it up. I just couldn't think of anything good. I'll take another stab at it.




I just had an idea, ever heard of the Symbiote type from the Eberron Campaign? It had a bunch of cool stuff like living breastplates and tentacle whips which infused themselves into the user.

The user took constitution damage while donning the armor, and symbiots have ego as well. So there's the possibility of conflicting ego if the user and the symbiote have different alignments.

That's all I got for now, sadly.

Hmm... Yeah, that sounds pretty good. I'll have to work that mechanic in somewhere. Perhaps a negative modifier if the host does something that the type does not like.

Lappy9000
2008-02-28, 12:04 AM
Alright, found the Eberron book *ahem*

The Symbiont is a subtype (the symbionts here are aberrations) which is joined with the user. This means it does stuff like use the wearer's Dex modifier to AC plus any other AC bonuses the wear has. Spells cast on the user also affect the symbiont. They're treated similiar to magic items.

Giving the ARMS damage reduction, and fortification; all stuff like that are probably good ideas.

EDIT: You may want to give stats to the ARMS if they're considered living creatures. If they're objects, they probably need at least hardness. They sound like they have Ego too.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 12:17 AM
Hm. I was thinking of them as being internal, and not able to be specificaly targeted (any more than one could target the arm of an individual). But yes, they could be located on the outside. Hmmm... yeah, I'm likeing that better and better. And that solves the problem of what entry requirements are needed too. A set of Symbiotes that, while helpful, require luck and dedication to foster growth from. :smallbiggrin: I'll bust out my own Eberron Rulebook and check how they did the others before I launch myself into that.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-28, 12:53 AM
Hmmm. Interesting, I think that you should make them into different classes altogether, with different requirements. I say this because each one is so completely different than the other. Also, if you do make them into different classes, you should make them more diverse. interesting idea.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 01:06 AM
Hmmm. Interesting, I think that you should make them into different classes altogether, with different requirements. I say this because each one is so completely different than the other. Also, if you do make them into different classes, you should make them more diverse. interesting idea.

Seriously? Well... lets see... that would make things easier to read. The skills could be different. Entry requirements could be different. Great idea!

But how am I going to name them? Brute Master? Na. Brute Symbiote Master? Too long. Hmm... perhaps Master Brute? No, that dosen't have the right feel. Brute Symbiotist? Possibly. Thoughts?

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-28, 10:20 AM
Let's see, I think that it could be basically named after what it attaches to. You could give them the Arabic name for what it attaches to and it will sound cool. I always use Arabic names, even though I'm Korean.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 03:43 PM
Let's see, I think that it could be basically named after what it attaches to. You could give them the Arabic name for what it attaches to and it will sound cool. I always use Arabic names, even though I'm Korean.

금수와 같은 주인?

Online translators are awesome. :smallbiggrin:

الغاشمه المضيفه

Hmm... I don't think that works.

Rigon
2008-02-28, 06:17 PM
symbiotes ... as "EQUIPMENT"... well. no. i hate it.
i would say it would have to be INSIDE the body to take effect. AND only one symbiote at a time.
and rules for dead host and dead symbiotes might be needed. what if attack a symbiote with a death spell?! does it fall off, or what? i can simply imagine a host dying because the symbiote died and took the host with it. what if the host is dead (-10hp)? does the symbiote die with it or does it simply slip off and wait for another empty equipment slot?

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 07:14 PM
symbiotes ... as "EQUIPMENT"... well. no. i hate it.
i would say it would have to be INSIDE the body to take effect. AND only one symbiote at a time.
and rules for dead host and dead symbiotes might be needed. what if attack a symbiote with a death spell?! does it fall off, or what? i can simply imagine a host dying because the symbiote died and took the host with it. what if the host is dead (-10hp)? does the symbiote die with it or does it simply slip off and wait for another empty equipment slot?

Well, I see what you mean. My original idea was that they were internal, and mutates the host to give them the abilities. And I do believe that it would be easier on me if they were not actual creatures with stat blocks. Soooo, if the host dies, it dies with them. Or, perhaps it could be harvested a few hours after the host dies. *shrug* Nothing is set in stone right now.

D Knight
2008-02-28, 09:52 PM
i have one thing to ask. is this class influenced by tokko at any chance. because if it is i would like to put in my two cents if not i still will but will not be good.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 10:36 PM
i have one thing to ask. is this class influenced by tokko at any chance. because if it is i would like to put in my two cents if not i still will but will not be good.

It was actualy influenced by Project ARMS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ARMS). But Tokko looks pretty good. I'll have to pick it up some time. So what's your two coppers?

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-28, 11:04 PM
You should probably make it a bit like the Goa'uld from SG1, just because. I also think that you need to have a requirement of being...chosen as a host for them.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-28, 11:32 PM
You should probably make it a bit like the Goa'uld from SG1, just because. I also think that you need to have a requirement of being...chosen as a host for them.

Perhaps being exemplary with the attribute associated with the symbiont?

As in:

Brute - Strength
Carver - Dexterity
Swift - Intelligence
Oracle - Wisdom
Spirit - Constitution

So to gain a Brute symbiont (and therefore be able to take the class associated with them) one would have to have higher than normal strength. Mechanically, it could be around... 16? Maybe.

As a side note, I have never watched Stargate before, so I'm not quite sure what a Goa'uld is (though I bet wikipedia will help me with that).

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-28, 11:47 PM
It's different, it is a parasitic creature that takes over your nervous system, and destroys your will.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-29, 12:06 AM
So it's actualy the parasite wielding the host like a puppet? And all traces of the host's original personality are erased? Intresting. Could have a use somewhere in all this mess. :smallsmile:

D Knight
2008-02-29, 05:45 PM
my two coppers are as followed. 1 i would give them as a special abilty to summon a weapon that they are proficent in or 2 give them spell like ablitys that can be used at lesat 2 times per encounter but more powerful at 1/day.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-29, 06:28 PM
So it's actualy the parasite wielding the host like a puppet? And all traces of the host's original personality are erased? Intresting. Could have a use somewhere in all this mess. :smallsmile:

The Commodore Has an Idea! Get this...
A Requirement to become a ------ is to be in control of a symbiotic creature, you make opposed will saves to see who's mind is in control of the body. If you fail, a new, extremely powerful, symbiotic creature takes your place, and has it's own will, and ideas. If you succeed, you become a symbiote master.

Ghal Marak
2008-02-29, 07:11 PM
The Commodore Has an Idea! Get this...
A Requirement to become a ------ is to be in control of a symbiotic creature, you make opposed will saves to see who's mind is in control of the body. If you fail, a new, extremely powerful, symbiotic creature takes your place, and has it's own will, and ideas. If you succeed, you become a symbiote master.


my two coppers are as followed. 1 i would give them as a special abilty to summon a weapon that they are proficent in or 2 give them spell like ablitys that can be used at lesat 2 times per encounter but more powerful at 1/day.

Perhaps we can combine these two ideas together, along with my orriginal idea.

SO, combining them, the Symbionts would be internal untill they summon them, and to do that they have to beat the symbiont's will with their own.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-02-29, 07:27 PM
eh... not so much.

Ghal Marak
2008-03-01, 05:57 PM
eh... not so much.

How is that? You don't like the willpower battle mechanic thing?

CommodoreFluffy
2008-03-01, 06:02 PM
I think that both ideas are separate, and should be treated/kept as such. but this is your class, so you should decide.

Ghal Marak
2008-03-01, 06:26 PM
I think that both ideas are separate, and should be treated/kept as such. but this is your class, so you should decide.

Hmm... okay, lets go back to your idea.


The Commodore Has an Idea! Get this...
A Requirement to become a ------ is to be in control of a symbiotic creature, you make opposed will saves to see who's mind is in control of the body. If you fail, a new, extremely powerful, symbiotic creature takes your place, and has it's own will, and ideas. If you succeed, you become a symbiote master.

So, what would happen exactly if they loose? They become an NPC and the player is out of a character?

On a different note, it would be pretty awesome if someone weak willed tried to master a symbiont and lost, and then went on a rampage and stuff ((which gives me an idea about a few monsters :smallwink: ))

jagadaishio
2008-03-01, 11:33 PM
This really needs some mechanical information on its class features. Badly. I think that's more important at the moment than figuring out the subtleties of the relationships presented within this prestige class.

CommodoreFluffy
2008-03-02, 01:56 AM
I think we should work out the ideas first, and then put some meat on it. i think that it would be like a character death, so it would not be taken lightly. but you could put some things in your game that would help against being dominated...

WAIT! THATS IT! It would count as a dominate person spell!

Ghal Marak
2008-03-02, 08:52 PM
This really needs some mechanical information on its class features. Badly. I think that's more important at the moment than figuring out the subtleties of the relationships presented within this prestige class.

Well like Commodore said, the class features are up in the air at the moment. I have no clue what I particularly want in this class, I'm just letting it coast and gathering ideas before I work on it seriously.


I think we should work out the ideas first, and then put some meat on it. i think that it would be like a character death, so it would not be taken lightly. but you could put some things in your game that would help against being dominated...

WAIT! THATS IT! It would count as a dominate person spell!

So it would count as a Dominate Person spell so that the PC could have a chance to snap out of it?

Ghal Marak
2009-03-02, 09:05 PM
Well talk about a wierd coincidence, I am somehow reviving this thread a complete year from my last post, almost to the minute! :smallbiggrin: Funny how things work out. Anyway, I decided that I didn't want to let it lanquish in obscurity anymore, and that it deserved to be done. SO, what I did was decisively go with one idea, and that was to keep them together in one class instead of split it appart into many classes. I just don't feel like splitting it up.

I think it's pretty much done, 'cept for the skills. They were always hard for me to decide on. I'll get that settled in a day or two. So, opinions? I think it is now far better than what I had before (which nobody actualy saw the skeleton, since it's only on my computer, but whatever).

periscope69
2009-03-22, 05:36 AM
This is a cool class. I like the idea of an item that can't be taken away, the descriptions of the symbiotes themselves are solid and original.

I'd recommend changing the following about the symbiotes:

Swift and Oracle should have at least a d6 hit die. This is a very much a "combat" class (Full bab and good Fort and Ref saves) and a d4 won't cut it.

I would change the Carver and the Brutes natural attacks to having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and having the damage increase along the lines you layed out for their natural attacks. Require that the Brutes must be bludgeoning and that the Carver's attacks must be slashing or piercing.

The reason I say this is because you normally can't make additional attacks with natural weapons. No one will play as a brute if they only get one attack a round. Even the carver will only get 3 a round.

One thing you could do, if you wanted to give more crunch to the class, would be to take a look at Bo9s. You could give them maneuvers and stances from different schools depending on which symbiote and it's abilities and tendencies.

Brute: Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, Iron Heart

Carver: Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw

Swift: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun

Oracle: White Raven, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun

Spirit: Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind

Another thing you could do is do a right up for if this was a 10 level PrC (I'm not saying get rid of the 5 level progression, I'm saying create a 10 level version in addition to the 5 level version).



If you don't want to use Bo9s, you could use the abilities from the 5 level progression and space them out so you don't get so many benefits that build on each other crammed in only 5 levels (I'm not saying take anything away, just space it out and fill in the blanks).

It would let you give more benefits and better define the symbiotes.

For instance you could give the swift symbiote evasion and improved evasion (because they can motor when it counts), a bonus on saves against fatigue and exhaustion (to keep running), and ability to be able to run through difficult terrain, the ability to run up walls (so long as they don't go beyond a 90 degree angle, end their movement on a surface they could stand on, and don't stop), on water (as long as they don't slow down), and maybe even graduating to an air walk effect.

the carver symbiotes could get evasion and improved evasion from increased reflexes, a climb speed from being able to sink their claws into the material, a rend ability if they hit you with two attacks in a round, and maybe get a bonus on attack and/or damage rolls based on the damage they did in the last round (as the symbiote is sadistic). Say for every 5 points of damage they inflicted in the last round they gain a +1 bonus in this round to a maximum of double their symbiote master level. Or you could give them some sneak attack damage if that's less complicated. You could also give them a flurry of claws ability similar to a monks flurry of blows ability.

The brute could give you the mettle ability (like evasion but applies to fortitude saves from effects that have "fortitude partial" in their save sections). A bonus on Str checks (to break a door down) and grapple checks wouldn't be farfetched. A shield bonus to AC (interposing the gauntlet and what's about to hit you) also doesn't sound unreasonable.

For the oracle, you could switch the save progression from Good Fort: Good Ref: Bad Will to Bad Fort: Good Ref: Good Will and give it a bonus against things that would screw with your mind. They could gain a handful of divination spell like abilities (things like commune with nature, augury, detect magic or poison, etc.). Also changing the deflection bonus to an insight bonus would make more sense.

For the spirit they could gain the light fortification ability (25% chance) of ignoring sneak attacks and critical hits) and it improve throughout their career (to 100%). They could gain a bonus to natural armor or maybe even regeneration (which would seem to fit better then DR) or fast healing. Resistance to poison and disease might also be put in there.

Ghal Marak
2009-03-22, 04:28 PM
Wow. That is a lot of stuff I never even thought of! Lets go through all this one at a time.


This is a cool class. I like the idea of an item that can't be taken away, the descriptions of the symbiotes themselves are solid and original.


Cool, thanks for the compliments.


I'd recommend changing the following about the symbiotes:

Swift and Oracle should have at least a d6 hit die. This is a very much a "combat" class (Full bab and good Fort and Ref saves) and a d4 won't cut it.

Yeah, I guess that change is okay. It was really just a move to make them a little less powerful, since they get limited spellcasting progression. I have yet to playtest it, so I'm not sure how everything will come out in the end.


I would change the Carver and the Brutes natural attacks to having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and having the damage increase along the lines you layed out for their natural attacks. Require that the Brutes must be bludgeoning and that the Carver's attacks must be slashing or piercing.

The reason I say this is because you normally can't make additional attacks with natural weapons. No one will play as a brute if they only get one attack a round. Even the carver will only get 3 a round.

Ah, and exilent point. I forgot about the full attack limitations. I'm definately making this change.


One thing you could do, if you wanted to give more crunch to the class, would be to take a look at Bo9s. You could give them maneuvers and stances from different schools depending on which symbiote and it's abilities and tendencies.

Brute: Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, Iron Heart

Carver: Stone Dragon, Shadow Hand, Tiger Claw

Swift: Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun

Oracle: White Raven, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun

Spirit: Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind

Well... I'm not too keen on the Nine Swords, if only because of a lack of familiarity with them. I'll look it over though.


Another thing you could do is do a right up for if this was a 10 level PrC (I'm not saying get rid of the 5 level progression, I'm saying create a 10 level version in addition to the 5 level version).

I guess I could do that. I wanted to keep it at 5 levels so it wouldn't disrupt the progression of any other classes as much as 10 levels would.


If you don't want to use Bo9s, you could use the abilities from the 5 level progression and space them out so you don't get so many benefits that build on each other crammed in only 5 levels (I'm not saying take anything away, just space it out and fill in the blanks).

It would let you give more benefits and better define the symbiotes.

For instance you could give the swift symbiote evasion and improved evasion (because they can motor when it counts), a bonus on saves against fatigue and exhaustion (to keep running), and ability to be able to run through difficult terrain, the ability to run up walls (so long as they don't go beyond a 90 degree angle, end their movement on a surface they could stand on, and don't stop), on water (as long as they don't slow down), and maybe even graduating to an air walk effect.

the carver symbiotes could get evasion and improved evasion from increased reflexes, a climb speed from being able to sink their claws into the material, a rend ability if they hit you with two attacks in a round, and maybe get a bonus on attack and/or damage rolls based on the damage they did in the last round (as the symbiote is sadistic). Say for every 5 points of damage they inflicted in the last round they gain a +1 bonus in this round to a maximum of double their symbiote master level. Or you could give them some sneak attack damage if that's less complicated. You could also give them a flurry of claws ability similar to a monks flurry of blows ability.

The brute could give you the mettle ability (like evasion but applies to fortitude saves from effects that have "fortitude partial" in their save sections). A bonus on Str checks (to break a door down) and grapple checks wouldn't be farfetched. A shield bonus to AC (interposing the gauntlet and what's about to hit you) also doesn't sound unreasonable.

For the oracle, you could switch the save progression from Good Fort: Good Ref: Bad Will to Bad Fort: Good Ref: Good Will and give it a bonus against things that would screw with your mind. They could gain a handful of divination spell like abilities (things like commune with nature, augury, detect magic or poison, etc.). Also changing the deflection bonus to an insight bonus would make more sense.

For the spirit they could gain the light fortification ability (25% chance) of ignoring sneak attacks and critical hits) and it improve throughout their career (to 100%). They could gain a bonus to natural armor or maybe even regeneration (which would seem to fit better then DR) or fast healing. Resistance to poison and disease might also be put in there.

Excilent ideas. I'll write up a 10 level varient and include some of them.

Thank you very much for the ideas and help. :smallbiggrin:

periscope69
2009-03-25, 04:23 AM
Oh I wasn't saying get rid of the 5 level prc, I was saying it might be nice to have a 10 level prc too. Thank you for the compliments on my suggestions.

Ghal Marak
2009-03-25, 06:20 PM
Oh I wasn't saying get rid of the 5 level prc, I was saying it might be nice to have a 10 level prc too. Thank you for the compliments on my suggestions.

I'm aware of that. And I don't intend to get rid of the 5lv. one. Just brush it up a bit, and tack on an alternate course.

Also, the mechanics of the 5 level class does not quite extend well to 10 levels, so the 10 level one will be slightly different. I'm incorporating the Item idea, so they (for example) chose which form their symbiote will take at first level and gain new variations there-of as they gain levels. It won't be soon, but I will have it done at some point.

EDIT: Oh, and I finaly made those changes to the 5 level prc, as well as adding new content. I'm not quite sure where I'm going to go with the Mind of it's Own though. Like, how to change them back. And should the DC of the check be higher/lower?

periscope69
2009-03-28, 06:15 AM
I think the DC for "Mind of its own" should be lowered from 10+ 2 x their SM level to 10 + their SM level since they're a poor will save class.

The "Mind of its own" entry isn't quite finished yet (what is it that they turn into I don't see a template like that in this thread).

Something that I just noticed:

Brute and Carver don't have a way to bypass a lot of DR. 2 suggestions for that.

1) Their unarmed strikes can count as magic weapons at level 1, have your alignment at level 3, and be adamantine at level 5 (as you have it now).

or

2) Their unarmed strikes can be enchanted as a weapon (maybe lessen the time it takes to 1 hour per 1000gp vs 1 day per 1000gp so that your not put on hold for a while to get enchanted).

Also I'd give them an additional feat depending on the symbiote:

Brute gets power attack, Carver gets Weapon Finesse, Swift gets Run, Spirit gains Improved Toughness, don't know what Oracle should get.

Also why do Swift and Oracle increase caster levels? I just don't understand that.

Thanks and I apologize if I sound rude, I don't mean to.

Ghal Marak
2009-03-30, 07:13 PM
Not rude at all (at least as far as I can tell).


I think the DC for "Mind of its own" should be lowered from 10+ 2 x their SM level to 10 + their SM level since they're a poor will save class.

The "Mind of its own" entry isn't quite finished yet (what is it that they turn into I don't see a template like that in this thread).

Something that I just noticed:

Brute and Carver don't have a way to bypass a lot of DR. 2 suggestions for that.

1) Their unarmed strikes can count as magic weapons at level 1, have your alignment at level 3, and be adamantine at level 5 (as you have it now).

or

2) Their unarmed strikes can be enchanted as a weapon (maybe lessen the time it takes to 1 hour per 1000gp vs 1 day per 1000gp so that your not put on hold for a while to get enchanted).

Also I'd give them an additional feat depending on the symbiote:

Brute gets power attack, Carver gets Weapon Finesse, Swift gets Run, Spirit gains Improved Toughness, don't know what Oracle should get.

Also why do Swift and Oracle increase caster levels? I just don't understand that.

Thanks and I apologize if I sound rude, I don't mean to.

The Swift and Oracle increase caster levels because I felt their symbiote abilities didn't quite go the extra mile. Plus, it was also because there is practicaly no other reason for anybody with a previous caster class to go into this PRC. So now their spells still have the normal punch (though they don't have as many spells as they would) and they have unique abilities that are pretty handy in most situations.

Also, the Swift guys are insanely fast with Run. I had forgotten all about that, realy.

Also, I think Spirit already have improved Toughness. Unless your sugesting that he gets it again, and letting it stack. That would be pretty cool. Huh, I guess not. I wonder how I got it in my head that they already got that.

The DC thing can be cut back I guess. I need to go back over the wording and fix a lot of stuff, perhaps make it progressive so it's not completely perminant. The rest is sound though.