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Starsinger
2008-02-18, 05:51 PM
So I was scanning the monster manual looking for a mook monster (settled on Locathah) and it occurred to me, it had Humanoid HD, I didn't know that humanoids had Racial Hit Dice. And lo, they do. So why be a Commoner? Why would I give up all of this


Features

A humanoid has the following features (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class.
* Base attack bonus equal to ¾ total Hit Dice (as cleric).
* Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies).
* Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, or by character class.

Traits

A humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

* Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.

so that I can become a commoner and have to remember to feed my kids' pet kitten for fear that Mr. Tinkles will eviscerate me if I don't? Obviously Commoners are better off just being Humanoids.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-18, 05:55 PM
1.) Adding levels of commoner do not eliminate the 2 humanoid hit dice. It doesn't give up anything in that way.

2.) Locathahs can only advance by character class. They cannot gain any more humanoid hit dice beyond the two they start with, so it gives up nothing any more than a human commoner gives up anything by taking those commoner levels.

3.) People of any race generally become commoners because they don't have the inclination, opportunity, or skill to become anything else.

Zincorium
2008-02-18, 05:56 PM
Commoners resemble humanoid racial hit dice in much the same way that the complete warrior samurai resembles the warblade.

See, there's this secret class feature called 'suck'. It's a vital balancing trait for yet another secret attribute, which was removed from 3.5 prior to it's final release.

Bosaxon
2008-02-18, 05:56 PM
I treat a common humaniod as having humaniod HD. Easier that way instead of my group just killing whoever is around wit housecats.

Shishnarfne
2008-02-18, 05:56 PM
Most humanoids don't advance as "humanoids" after reaching their full Racial Hit Dice. Most advance by class level. (If someone knows of an exception, it'd be nice to hear).

Also, races with no racial hit dice (e.g. human) have all of their levels in classes.

So, it's not a choice they are allowed, as I read the rules. Granted, "humanoid" is more useful than "commoner", but less useful than the other NPC classes, IMO. However, people who take levels in commoner aren't worried about class power anyway... they're worried about feeding the pigs so that they can sell them and make enough more to feed themselves.

Now, why they should take commoner over expert... I guess maybe they're just too lazy to learn all of those skills...

The_Snark
2008-02-18, 06:01 PM
I think what Starsinger is asking is, why would a human give up their 1 racial HD for a level of commoner?

The answer is that we don't know. Humans don't even have an entry in the Monster Manual. Perhaps humanoids with only 1 HD are forced to give it up for a class level. Maybe the standard races actually have 0 HD, and so are forced to take commoner levels simply to exist.

The game doesn't really spend a lot of time on this topic, and I can't fault it for that; it isn't really that important.

Rutee
2008-02-18, 06:09 PM
Perhaps humans were secretly bred by Bastet to be the servants of Cat-dom. Bastet included an ingrained psychological desire to mostly keep oneself down, thus, they chose Commoner so as to be beneath their Kitteh masters. How the humans rose against them is unknown, but truly, the situation is back to its former truth, where most people are commoners once more; The kitties are waiting, and biding their time..

Artanis
2008-02-18, 06:10 PM
I treat a common humaniod as having humaniod HD. Easier that way instead of my group just killing whoever is around wit housecats.
That would be awesome!

*envisions laying waste to an entire village by throwing kittens at people*

Collin152
2008-02-18, 06:24 PM
That would be awesome!

*envisions laying waste to an entire village by throwing kittens at people*

Vorpal kittens?

The_Snark
2008-02-18, 06:44 PM
Perhaps humans were secretly bred by Bastet to be the servants of Cat-dom. Bastet included an ingrained psychological desire to mostly keep oneself down, thus, they chose Commoner so as to be beneath their Kitteh masters. How the humans rose against them is unknown, but truly, the situation is back to its former truth, where most people are commoners once more; The kitties are waiting, and biding their time..

Silly Rutee. We don't want to go bringing real-world facts into discussions of the game rules...

Orzel
2008-02-18, 06:58 PM
I'd but a humanoid with 1 HD as a tribal warrior humanoid. Whereas a commoner has more skills for civilized life. More creatures with just humanoid HD (bugbears, gnolls) have skills like Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot as class skills with are not useful for everyday civilized life outside of townguard.

Pronounceable
2008-02-18, 07:02 PM
Perhaps humans were secretly bred by Bastet to be the servants of Cat-dom. Bastet included an ingrained psychological desire to mostly keep oneself down, thus, they chose Commoner so as to be beneath their Kitteh masters. How the humans rose against them is unknown, but truly, the situation is back to its former truth, where most people are commoners once more; The kitties are waiting, and biding their time..

You read Sandman? Hunt down the story "Dream of a Thousand Cats", it tells us how that happened.

Dark Knight Renee
2008-02-18, 07:32 PM
Sayeth the SRD:

Humanoid Type
A humanoid usually has two arms, two legs, and one head, or a humanlike torso, arms, and a head. Humanoids have few or no supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but most can speak and usually have well-developed societies. They usually are Small or Medium. Every humanoid creature also has a subtype.

Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws.

Humanoids with more than 1 Hit Die are the only humanoids who make use of the features of the humanoid type.


I'm not even going to try to make up a reason for this :smalltongue: I'm not in the mood to kill cat girls.

Zeal
2008-02-18, 10:02 PM
You're assuming the Commoners have a choice in this. They may be better off being Humanoids, but due to the decree of the great and powerful Costal Wizards, they have been lowered to the lowly state that is Commoner.

Mojo_Rat
2008-02-18, 10:06 PM
Being a commoner and being n expert is probably like the difference between Normal every day workers and normal people and a higher paied professional.

So if your Building a house there may be several Commoners with profession carpenter and craft woodworking but the Master carpenter overseeing it all is likely going to be an Expert

Really 'commoners' are just normal people They can be the grocer the butcher the candlestick maker or the town drunk.

But Stuff like Blacksmith or Similar trades which represent a higher level of skill and training will be experts.

Shhalahr Windrider
2008-02-18, 11:03 PM
I think what Starsinger is asking is, why would a human give up their 1 racial HD for a level of commoner?
They don't give it up. They don't have any racial hit dice at all. Only class hit dice.

Humans, elves, halflings, goblins, kobolds, and so on are not tough enough to have hit dice just for being what they are. They have to learn a little bit about it. Those that are too lazy or lack the opportunity or skill to get something better only learn enough to be represented as commoners.

Ealstan
2008-02-18, 11:19 PM
The biggest reason to be a commoner is so you can qualify for a prestige class sooner than everyone else. LVL 1: Commoner, LVL2: Survivor (Savage Species). The only difficult requirement of Survivor is that your highest base save bonus must be less than your total hit dice. Since the Commoner has all bad saves he qualifies at level one. I realize that it's 3.0, but still. Getting evasion and DR 5/- is pretty good. If I were a commoner living in fear of ferocious felines DR 5/- is exactly what I'd be aiming for :smallwink:

Tyrael
2008-02-18, 11:23 PM
Why be a Commoner?

Because you can be Joe Wood (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=763260), of course!

Tengu
2008-02-18, 11:27 PM
Perhaps humans were secretly bred by Bastet to be the servants of Cat-dom. Bastet included an ingrained psychological desire to mostly keep oneself down, thus, they chose Commoner so as to be beneath their Kitteh masters. How the humans rose against them is unknown, but truly, the situation is back to its former truth, where most people are commoners once more; The kitties are waiting, and biding their time..

http://www.commissionedcomic.com/ - this is the webcomic for you. Up from the point where O, the author and main character, got his cats, he starts to share more or less this view, only without the divine elements. Not to mention that his observations of life are amusing and very real, although he lacks tastes in some regards (bad taste is not the same as lack of taste - if you have bad taste, you only like bad things, if you lack taste, you like both bad and good things alike) - for example, he likes FF8 - and the way his group plays DND and Shadowrun is faaaaar from how I play my RPGs.

Also, the hilarious things about commoners is that getting the rough equivalent of high-school education (and thus becoming an expert) will give you better hit die and attack bonus. Though I guess that's because commoners are supposed to represent little children, senile elderly, beggars, malnourished peasants living in poverty and people who are totally inept at everything, and everyone who can put on their clothes and eat dinner without any outside help actually has one of the other classes.

MisterSaturnine
2008-02-19, 12:09 AM
Well, duh. If you take a lot of levels in Commoner, BBEGs don't find you important enough to kill. Just make sure that you don't set yourself up to be the subject of his/her Kick the Dog (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog) show of just how evil they are.

Aquillion
2008-02-19, 12:36 AM
They're malnourished, downtrodden and oppressed...

Also, the 8-HD humanoid, as noted, actually only applies to 'special' humanoids (in other words, not things like the basic PC races.)

the_tick_rules
2008-02-19, 01:50 AM
why be a commoner, cause someone has to do the work to keep society running. We can't all be so lucky to spend our days raiding forgotten tombs.

Overlord
2008-02-24, 01:20 AM
Because then, there wouldn't be anybody for the Forgotten Realm's Statue of Liberty inscription to talk about.

Xuincherguixe
2008-02-24, 01:24 AM
It's because they're roleplayers, rather than powergamers.

Rutee
2008-02-24, 01:33 AM
It's because they're roleplayers, rather than powergamers.

Because the roleplaying possibilities of a mud farmer are legion.

Xyk
2008-02-24, 02:26 PM
Because the roleplaying possibilities of a mud farmer are legion.

Haha you made me laugh:smallbiggrin: congratulations.