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fireinthedust
2008-02-18, 06:11 PM
Question: when is it a good idea to add class levels to a Dragon? I've only used dragons once in a game, which was admittedly overpowered, and involved their dying in one round.
The idea of dragons gaining power with age is all well and good, but how do you deal with the Dragonomicon PrCs? Or any PrC, really. How should I put them in?

My thought is that I'm going to have Eberron PCs go to Argonessen, and get a taste of the culture there. They'll be around level 6 or 7, but I want the founders of magical studies on Eberron to be more... well, advanced in magical knowledge than just having sorcerer levels and hit points.

Any recomendations? Should I have more hatchling dragons (perhaps in human forms) with class levels to interact with? Or focus on classed mortals?

Keld Denar
2008-02-18, 06:42 PM
If you want to ensure that the players won't totally 1shot you dragon, take a look at the DMG rules for non-associated class levels. You can advance a creature by 4 class levels per +1 CR up to the hit dice of a creature. So a young gold dragon for example, has what, 16ish HD? at CR7ish? So a CR10 dragon could have up to 12 class levels in a non-associated class, and a CR11 dragon would have 16 class levels.

Now, just figure out what class goes well with a dragon. I'd say that sorcerer is probably an associated class for a dragon, and something like....a monk would be a non-associated class. A young Gold Dragon monk16 would be an appropriate "challenge" for a party with an average level of 8th, but would totally wipe the floor with them. The extra hit dice alone would throw it into the realm of unkillable, not to mention the host of extra abilities it would gain (claw claw bite wing wing tail flurry flurry flurry flurry flurry). That'll keep your dragon something to be feared and respected while still being 100% rules legal and CR appropriate.

Hey, who ever said the rules for D&D were balanced? lol

The_Snark
2008-02-18, 07:06 PM
If you want to ensure that the players won't totally 1shot you dragon, take a look at the DMG rules for non-associated class levels. You can advance a creature by 4 class levels per +1 CR up to the hit dice of a creature. So a young gold dragon for example, has what, 16ish HD? at CR7ish? So a CR10 dragon could have up to 12 class levels in a non-associated class, and a CR11 dragon would have 16 class levels.

That's 2 class levels per +1 CR, not 4 class levels. And it's up to the original CR of the creature, not up to its original hit dice.

Also note that you can't flurry with natural weapons.

Dragons with levels of sorceror can work out pretty well, especially if they go into something like Abjurant Champion.

Any dragons that you intend the PCs to fight... probably shouldn't be considered the founders of magical knowledge in Ebberon. They're young dragons; they might have impressive innate magic and access to odd spells, but they're not old enough to have mastered it. Use a lot of odd spells from the Spell Compendium, Dragon Magic, and the Ebberon books (especially Dragons of Ebberon, if you have it) to reinforce the unknown nature of their magic.

Friendlier NPC dragons, or very long-term enemies, might be older dragons with more sorceror levels.

Using odd spells, or strange descriptions for standard spells, can make them seem more powerful and exotic than giving them levels in obscure prestige classes. A PC won't necessarily know that a dragon is a very young gold dragon with 8 sorceror levels, but they will know that it just turned itself into a wave of fire, then coalesced back into a dragon in the middle of the party.

(Incidentally, I would consider sorceror levels to be nonassociated for dragons. Their caster level is too low for them to rely on spells to do more than give them fledgling magical defenses; they'll need plenty of sorceror levels in order to be a threat as a primary spellcaster.)

fireinthedust
2008-02-18, 07:41 PM
Great!

But what about PrCs? If I have a Dragon Loremaster, or another PrC that works with the Draconic Prophecy, should I do the same thing as with regular class levels?

I'm thinking that Argonessen dragons (Eberron in general) should use the Wizard class for their spells (unless they're martially focused, where I'd use the regular sorcerer levels); and maybe swap the effective sorcerer levels for levels in Wizard or Cleric, even artificer. This makes sense, as I see them as more... understanding of magic/metaphysics that simply being magical thingies.
Would that throw off balance horribly, if I swapped in levels?

FlyMolo
2008-02-18, 07:41 PM
Ah, natural weapons and flurry of blows, and improved unarmed strike.

How confusing can it be, really? It couldn't get any worse. Is an unarmed strike a natural weapon? don't be silly. But it's a manufactured weapon...

Keld Denar
2008-02-19, 07:02 AM
Also note that you can't flurry with natural weapons.


You CAN make a full attack with natural weapons in addition to attacks with manufactured weapons. A dragon CAN flurry with unarmed strikes (doing normal monklike unarmed damage for a creature its size) and then make a full attack with all of its natural weapons at a penalty (-5 I think?), but its not like dragons don't have AB to spare. Just like a lizardman can attack with both claws and a bite OR a halberd and a bite (since the claws are holding the halbred) with all natural attacks coming at a -5 penalty. Monk levels are actually stupidly overpowered when tacked onto something huge with a high strength and good stats, like a dragon or cloud giant. (yes, I just said monks are overpowered...you don't believe me? I'll show you a craig giant with monk levels that will TPK a EL appropriate party in about 2 rounds)