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Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-19, 03:05 AM
Don't worry, we're not discussing whether or not this is broken - it is. This is a theoretical build for the theurge competition.

Say I use my outsider wild shape ability to turn into a Solar.

Do I gain 20th level cleric casting in the deal, as a result of getting all of the Ex, Sp, and Su abilities of my wild shape form?

The entry for it doesn't have one of those three descriptors, but then the MM states that all abilities are Ex, Sp, or Su, so I'm confused. Ideas, plz?

Chrismith
2008-02-19, 09:09 AM
The entry in the Monster Manual says "A special ability is either extraordinary (Ex), spell-like (Sp), or supernatural (Su)." It doesn't say that spells are considered a special ability. In general, spellcasting seems to be considered separate from extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. It certainly doesn't fit the definition of any of those three, and a common phrase used when discussing special abilities (such as in the Damage Reduction or Incorporeal glossary entries) is "spells, spell-like, and supernatural abilities", implying that spells are distinct from other abilities. The same thing is seen in the glossary entries for Alternate Form and Change Shape -- spellcasting is discussed separately from special abilities.

I can't find a reference that actually says that spellcasting is not considered a spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary ability, but the general indication seems to be that it is none of those.

daggaz
2008-02-19, 09:27 AM
Spellcasting is a class feature, not a "special ability." If a monster can cast spells, but has no class levels, the entry always reads, "casts spells as an nth lvl X" where X is the class type, ie sorcerer, cleric, druid, etc..

That said, solars casts as 20th lvl clerics. All solars do this, naturally, without actually taking 20 lvls of cleric. So yeah, as a wildshaped solar, you would gain that ability. Least thats how I would read it... regardless, its totally broken of course.

Wraith
2008-02-19, 09:34 AM
I agree with your interpretation, daggaz. The line reads "casts spells AS an X level...", it doesn't say that they ARE an X Level...

Which makes it an ability, because they don't have the actual class and are therefore not using class features.

Another GM might disagree with me, but to be honest if they've allowed a Planar Shepherd in their game and it's reached the point where it can shapechange into an ANGEL, then it's probably already too late no matter what they allow or disallow :smalltongue:

leperkhaun
2008-02-19, 10:00 AM
they do, thats one of the reasons why the class is considered to be cheesy.

sikyon
2008-02-19, 09:51 PM
Spellcasting is a class feature, not a "special ability." If a monster can cast spells, but has no class levels, the entry always reads, "casts spells as an nth lvl X" where X is the class type, ie sorcerer, cleric, druid, etc..

That said, solars casts as 20th lvl clerics. All solars do this, naturally, without actually taking 20 lvls of cleric. So yeah, as a wildshaped solar, you would gain that ability. Least thats how I would read it... regardless, its totally broken of course.

How can a creature with no class levels have class features?

ZekeArgo
2008-02-19, 09:59 PM
How can a creature with no class levels have class features?

Because thats how they're written.

Chronos
2008-02-19, 10:00 PM
Mind you, even if you don't get Solar spellcasting, their spell-like abilities already constitute Power Overwhelming. Summon Monster VII and Imprisonment at will? Wish 1/day? And let's not even mention their immunities, resistances, damage reduction, regeneration...

On the other hand, though, doesn't Planar Shepherd still limit you to your level in HD of the thing you turn into? That would take Solars (22 HD) off the table until epic levels. You'll just have to settle for a Planetar, instead.

Chrismith
2008-02-19, 10:07 PM
How can a creature with no class levels have class features?

Just to play devil's advocate, let's look at the other possibilities: extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like abilities.

First up, extraordinary.


Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are standard actions unless otherwise noted.

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, can't be dispelled or disrupted, and are unaffected by an antimagic field. Spells are obviously not extraordinary.

Next, supernatural.


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice.

Closer. These abilities are clearly magical and are affected by antimagic, but they ignore SR and can't be dispelled or counterspelled. Spells clearly don't fall into this category
.

Finally, let's look at spell-like abilities.


A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability’s use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated. Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell...

Also close, but still clearly different from actual spells. These abilities have no components and no spell failure, and cannot counterspell. So spells don't fall under this category either.

Where does that leave us? Well, spells don't meet the definition for any of these types of abilities, so they must be something different. Calling them "class features" is probably misleading, since class features can also be extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. I don't think there's a good name for what spellcasting is, and it's not well-defined in the game, but spellcasting is consistently treated differently than other special abilities.

Ponce
2008-02-20, 12:20 AM
Where does that leave us? Well, spells don't meet the definition for any of these types of abilities, so they must be something different. Calling them "class features" is probably misleading, since class features can also be extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. I don't think there's a good name for what spellcasting is, and it's not well-defined in the game, but spellcasting is consistently treated differently than other special abilities.


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. Natural Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities)

The Solar's Spellcasting is a Natural Ability, by the above. Nowhere does it say in the wildshape features of Druids and Planar Shepherds, nor in any of their referenced material, that wildshape grants the natural abilities of the new form. In summary, you do not gain the spells.

At least, I think so.

Edit: Spellcasting granted by cleric levels or by being a solar, etc, are not Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like by virtue of the fact that they are not indicated as being such.

Zincorium
2008-02-20, 12:23 AM
Natural Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalAbilities)

The Solar's Spellcasting is a Natural Ability, by the above. Nowhere does it say in the wildshape features of Druids and Planar Shepherds, nor in any of their referenced material, that wildshape grants the natural abilities of the new form. In summary, you do not gain the spells.

At least, I think so.

Um, if you didn't gain abilities that a creature has because of it's physical nature, wildshape would do exactly nothing.

Poison, pounce, and most other purely physical things are in that category.

Ponce
2008-02-20, 12:25 AM
Um, if you didn't gain abilities that a creature has because of it's physical nature, wildshape would do exactly nothing.

Poison, pounce, and most other purely physical things are in that category.

Those are Extraordinary.

Cuddly
2008-02-20, 02:47 AM
Since solar spell casting is neither a spell like ability, supernatural ability, or an ex ability, you wouldn't get it.

Zincorium
2008-02-20, 02:50 AM
Those are Extraordinary.

True, now that I look at it. Which makes the definition of 'natural ability' completely screwy.