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View Full Version : More rules weirdness: Unarmed strikes, two-handed reach weapons, and two-weaponing



John Campbell
2008-02-19, 05:42 AM
Okay, I've got another weird case for which I'd like some opinions as to what the rules actually say about how it works.

My character (who is not a Monk) has Improved Unarmed Strike, which means that my unarmed attack threatens, as a weapon, with the usual 5' reach. My character also has a guisarme, which, of course, is a reach weapon, threatening at 10' but not at 5', and which takes both hands to use.

If I'm holding the guisarme, exactly what squares do I threaten? Do I threaten both the squares at 10', with the guisarme, and the squares at 5', with my unarmed strike? Do I get either/or, at my discretion? If the latter, when am I allowed to switch? Does it make a difference if I've attacked with either the guisarme or the unarmed strike earlier in the round?

Do I need a hand free to make an unarmed strike? There don't seem to be any rules saying that an unarmed strike has to be a punch... though there are rules for gauntlets, but not for sabatons or plain old heavy boots. The Monk rules explicitly say that Monks, specifically, can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body and thus don't need hands free. Does the presence of that rule mean that it's a special ability of Monks, and therefore imply that other classes can't? Or is it just clarification of something that applies to everyone, but is particularly relevant for Monks?

If I don't need a hand free, can I two-weapon guisarme and unarmed strike? Do I have to do so, with attendant penalties, if I want to threaten at both ranges? If so, again, when can I switch between wielding two weapons, and wielding one and just having the other, or switch which I'm wielding and which I just have?

Actually, that's a good question for two-weaponing anything... if I've got my long sword in one hand and my kukri in the other, can I say that I'm just wielding the long sword (and not attack with the kukri, but keep it in my hand) and not get the to-hit penalties associated with two-weaponing? Can I do my two-weapon full attack with both, then say I'm just wielding the long sword for any attacks of opportunity I get?

On the other hand, if only Monks can unarmed strike without their hands free, how am I supposed to kick someone when they're down? 'Cause I'm a CN Rogue, and I've got a weapon I can trip with. I'm all about the kicking them while they're down.

Should I just make up my own answers to these questions because there really aren't any canon ones and my DM will probably just accept anything that I state with sufficient confidence?

Weiser_Cain
2008-02-19, 05:50 AM
I'd let you choose which weapon to attack with each round, weapon or foot.
I'd still hit you with penalties unless you dropped the weapon since you still have this heavy sharp thing in your hands.
I guess you could kick the guy or stab him, I'm a staby kind of guy.
In the end it's up to your DM.

Quorothorn
2008-02-19, 05:52 AM
Okay, I've got another weird case for which I'd like some opinions as to what the rules actually say about how it works.

My character (who is not a Monk) has Improved Unarmed Strike, which means that my unarmed attack threatens, as a weapon, with the usual 5' reach. My character also has a guisarme, which, of course, is a reach weapon, threatening at 10' but not at 5', and which takes both hands to use.

If I'm holding the guisarme, exactly what squares do I threaten? Do I threaten both the squares at 10', with the guisarme, and the squares at 5', with my unarmed strike? Do I get either/or, at my discretion? If the latter, when am I allowed to switch? Does it make a difference if I've attacked with either the guisarme or the unarmed strike earlier in the round?

Do I need a hand free to make an unarmed strike? There don't seem to be any rules saying that an unarmed strike has to be a punch... though there are rules for gauntlets, but not for sabatons or plain old heavy boots. The Monk rules explicitly say that Monks, specifically, can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body and thus don't need hands free. Does the presence of that rule mean that it's a special ability of Monks, and therefore imply that other classes can't? Or is it just clarification of something that applies to everyone, but is particularly relevant for Monks?

I had personally sort of assumed that Improved Unarmed Strike worked basically the same for everyone (aside from upper-level Monks getting more damage, of course). >_> So I would say you threaten both sectors, but off the top of my head there's no RAW that points one way or the other.

daggaz
2008-02-19, 06:01 AM
Although not exactly straight forward, RAW does answer this question. It has also been further clarified by Wizards regarding similiar instances.

It's a free action to release a 2handed weapon with one hand, you can do this at any time on your turn, freeing that hand for other actions. (see the rulings about casters using 2handers... wouldn't make much sense for druids or wizards to have quarterstaffs otherwise, would it?)

The choice of which hand is yours, so make it your main hand.

Your offhand continues to hold the weapon.

The weapon is a 2handed weapon, so you are no longer wielding it, you are simply holding it. Thus there are no penalties for attacking with your main hand using improved unarmed strike.


Now technically you only threaten one way or the other depending on how you ended your turn, but it is a free action to release/regrip that 2hander sitting in your offhand, so you can switch your threatened areas freely at any time, including when the enemy moves in our out. Of course, "free actions" are loosely determined by the DM, so it is entirely up to them to determine if you are overdoing it.

Personally, I would have no problem allowing a melee orientated character the right to release a weapon to punch an incoming grappler in the nose. Its maybe a bit more of a stretch to allow you to rewield your weapon in a quick hurry and strike at somebody trying to flee away, but I could see it for someone with a good BaB and proficiency in a weapon. If you are taking advantage of combat reflexes and somehow pulling multiple AoO's on enemies by switching back and forth numerous times in one go, you'ld better be a monk or a high level fighter, or its starting to get abusive of the free action system.

EDIT: Laugh... i forgot that you can kick with unarmed strike. Making most of this debate pretty much pointless assuming your feet are free.

Laurentio
2008-02-19, 06:02 AM
About striking, I would assume you can ALWAYS kick, no matter which weapon you wield, as alternative to the armed strike. Kicking (and elbowing) was a normal part of every real combat, when an opponent came to short range to properly use the weapon.
Anyway, I would impose a malus on the unarmed striked based on the weapon, as heavy or long weapons require a posture that is not immediate for unarmed attacks. OR, you can strike true, but get a malus on successive strike armed (you switch posture, so nulling your "katas").

Regarding the threatening range, it's almost the same. If someone enter your armed guard, and you need to defend or counter-attack with bared punch or feet, you just lose value on every weapon successive strike, and obviously you are "unarmed" for attacker purpose (some action can't be done against armed foes).

As a realistic rule, free hand are not necessary. You can even grab while helding a weapon, if not clumsy (like a two handed sword).

Laurentio

Matthew
2008-02-19, 06:34 AM
My character (who is not a Monk) has Improved Unarmed Strike, which means that my unarmed attack threatens, as a weapon, with the usual 5' reach. My character also has a guisarme, which, of course, is a reach weapon, threatening at 10' but not at 5', and which takes both hands to use.

If I'm holding the guisarme, exactly what squares do I threaten? Do I threaten both the squares at 10', with the guisarme, and the squares at 5', with my unarmed strike? Do I get either/or, at my discretion? If the latter, when am I allowed to switch? Does it make a difference if I've attacked with either the guisarme or the unarmed strike earlier in the round?

Your Character threatens as though he were using a Guisarme and Spiked Armour .



Do I need a hand free to make an unarmed strike? There don't seem to be any rules saying that an unarmed strike has to be a punch... though there are rules for gauntlets, but not for sabatons or plain old heavy boots. The Monk rules explicitly say that Monks, specifically, can make unarmed strikes with any part of their body and thus don't need hands free. Does the presence of that rule mean that it's a special ability of Monks, and therefore imply that other classes [i]can't? Or is it just clarification of something that applies to everyone, but is particularly relevant for Monks?

Yes, a Monk can attack without having a Free Hand.



If I don't need a hand free, can I two-weapon guisarme and unarmed strike? Do I have to do so, with attendant penalties, if I want to threaten at both ranges? If so, again, when can I switch between wielding two weapons, and wielding one and just having the other, or switch which I'm wielding and which I just have?

Yes, your character can use the Guisarme and Unarmed Strike in combination and Two Weapon Fight, just as though he were using a Guisarme and Spiked Armour (See the FAQ for clarification of this point). Of course, he would have to have targets at 5' and 10'.



Actually, that's a good question for two-weaponing anything... if I've got my long sword in one hand and my kukri in the other, can I say that I'm just wielding the long sword (and not attack with the kukri, but keep it in my hand) and not get the to-hit penalties associated with two-weaponing? Can I do my two-weapon full attack with both, then say I'm just wielding the long sword for any attacks of opportunity I get?

You declare whether your character is Two Weapon Fighting and which is his Primary Hand on his action. Read this series of articles for further clarification:

Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 1 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060829a)
Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060905a)
Rules of the Game - Two Handed Fighting 3 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060912a)



On the other hand, if only Monks can unarmed strike without their hands free, how am I supposed to kick someone when they're down? 'Cause I'm a CN Rogue, and I've got a weapon I can trip with. I'm all about the kicking them while they're down.

Any character can make an Unarmed Strike in this way.



Should I just make up my own answers to these questions because there really aren't any canon ones and my DM will probably just accept anything that I state with sufficient confidence?

You certainly shouldn't. Whenever there is a rules dispute, the DM should be made aware of the problem and make the decision, not the player.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-20, 11:50 AM
Now technically you only threaten one way or the other depending on how you ended your turn, but it is a free action to release/regrip that 2hander sitting in your offhand, so you can switch your threatened areas freely at any time, including when the enemy moves in our out. Of course, "free actions" are loosely determined by the DM, so it is entirely up to them to determine if you are overdoing it.

Someone clarified this for me. "Free actions can only be taken on your turn." That being said, if you attacked with the Guisarme at any point in the turn prior to the AoO, your Unarmed Strike AoO for a foe within 5 feet will take TWF penalties, after which any Guisarme AoOs for foes within 10 feet will take the same penalties.

John Campbell
2008-02-21, 12:49 PM
Your Character threatens as though he were using a Guisarme and Spiked Armour [i.e. all squares within 10' and 5'].

Okay... do I need to have declared that I'm two-weaponing, and take the associated penalties on all of my attacks of opportunity, in order to do this? Or do TWF penalties only apply to a full attack made during my action? Or is it as AtomicKitKat suggests, and the TWF penalties kick in at the moment that I actually make an AoO with the second weapon and only apply thereafter?

Does my unarmed attack still threaten if I'm attacking only with the guisarme to avoid TWF penalties? There are effects other than attacks of opportunity that depend on the threatened zone (for example, I'll be picking up Mage Slayer in a couple levels).


Yes, your character can use the Guisarme and Unarmed Strike in combination and Two Weapon Fight, just as though he were using a Guisarme and Spiked Armour (See the FAQ for clarification of this point). Of course, he would have to have targets at 5' and 10'.

Is there a set order that full attacks have to go in? Or, if I have only a target at 5', can I make my unarmed attack, then five-foot-step back and make my guisarme attacks... or vice versa, if the target's initially at 10'? Does it matter which I've designated primary and which secondary?


You declare whether your character is Two Weapon Fighting and which is his Primary Hand on his action. Read this series of articles for further clarification:

Hmm... can I declare my unarmed strike to be my primary and my guisarme to be my secondary? If so, what Strength bonus do I get on the guisarme? 1.5x? 0.5x? 0.75x?


You certainly shouldn't. Whenever there is a rules dispute, the DM should be made aware of the problem and make the decision, not the player.

My DM doesn't like making judgement calls, and tends to react to being asked to by forbidding everything in sight, until the players complain about being screwed out of stuff that wasn't even in question to begin with, at which point he'll back off and usually just go with whatever interpretation the player who originally asked thinks is right. I'm just trying to cut the middle out of the process.

(I was joking. But the above is pretty much true, which is why I'm asking around here to get at least a general consensus as to what the rules say instead of just asking my DM.)

Matthew
2008-02-21, 01:46 PM
Okay... do I need to have declared that I'm two-weaponing, and take the associated penalties on all of my attacks of opportunity, in order to do this? Or do TWF penalties only apply to a full attack made during my action? Or is it as AtomicKitKat suggests, and the TWF penalties kick in at the moment that I actually make an AoO with the second weapon and only apply thereafter?

As far as I understand it, Two Weapon Fighting Penalties are distinct from Attacks of Opportunity. My understanding of the articles is that it works as follows:

Fighter 1 AB 1(4)
Attributes: Strength 15, Dexterity 14,
Feats: Weapon Focus (Guisarme), Improved Unarmed Strike,
Equipment: Guisarme

Round 1
a) Fighter attacks at 10' using his Guisarme with AB 4
b) Opponent provokes Attack of Opportunity at 10'
c) Fighter can attack using his Guisarme with AB 4
d) Opponent provokes Attack of Opportunity at 5'
e) Fighter can attack using an Unarmed Strike with AB -1 [i.e. takes a -4 Penalty since the Guisarme was designated the primary weapon].

Round 2
a) Fighter attacks at 5' using an Unarmed Strike with AB 3 and takes a 5' step back
b) Opponent provokes an Attack of Opportunity at 10'
c) Fighter can attack using his Guisarme with AB 0 [i.e. takes a -4 Penalty, since the Unarmed Strike was designated the primary weapon].

Round 3
a) Fighter uses Two Weapon Fighting to attack an Opponent at 5' using an Unarmed Strike with AB -5 (taking -8 in two weapon fighting penalties) and an Opponent at 10' using his Guisarme with AB 0 (taking -4 in two weapon fighting penalties).
b) Opponent provokes an Attack of Opportunity at 10'.
c) Fighter can attack at 10' using his Guisarme with AB 4 [i.e. the articles seem to be saying that Two Weapon Fighting Penalties do not apply to Attacks of Opportunity, which makes sense, since you don't make two attacks].
d) Opponent provokes an Attack of Opportunity at 10'
e) Fighter can attack at 5' using an Unarmed Strike with AB -1 [i.e. Two Weapon Fighting Penalties do not apply, but normal Off Hand Penalties do]



Does my unarmed attack still threaten if I'm attacking only with the guisarme to avoid TWF penalties? There are effects other than attacks of opportunity that depend on the threatened zone (for example, I'll be picking up Mage Slayer in a couple levels).

Since Armour Spikes do, yes.



Is there a set order that full attacks have to go in? Or, if I have only a target at 5', can I make my unarmed attack, then five-foot-step back and make my guisarme attacks... or vice versa, if the target's initially at 10'? Does it matter which I've designated primary and which secondary?

Always highest to lowest AB in the case of Iterative Attacks; in any order in the case of Two Weapon Fighting. 5' steps can take place between any attacks, so essentially yes, you can make an Unarmed attack, take a 5' step back and make a Guisarme attack. Note, you can do this completely without penalties if you use Iterative Attacks.



Hmm... can I declare my unarmed strike to be my primary and my guisarme to be my secondary? If so, what Strength bonus do I get on the guisarme? 1.5x? 0.5x? 0.75x?

Wizards never answered my question; I put it to them several times. In my opinion it should be x1.0.



My DM doesn't like making judgement calls, and tends to react to being asked to by forbidding everything in sight, until the players complain about being screwed out of stuff that wasn't even in question to begin with, at which point he'll back off and usually just go with whatever interpretation the player who originally asked thinks is right. I'm just trying to cut the middle out of the process.

(I was joking. But the above is pretty much true, which is why I'm asking around here to get at least a general consensus as to what the rules say instead of just asking my DM.)

Well, then D20 is definitely the game for him. :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-21, 02:24 PM
Okay... do I need to have declared that I'm two-weaponing, and take the associated penalties on all of my attacks of opportunity, in order to do this? Or do TWF penalties only apply to a full attack made during my action? Or is it as AtomicKitKat suggests, and the TWF penalties kick in at the moment that I actually make an AoO with the second weapon and only apply thereafter?

TWF penalties only apply during your full attack. AoO are made at your normal attack bonus.


Hmm... can I declare my unarmed strike to be my primary and my guisarme to be my secondary? If so, what Strength bonus do I get on the guisarme? 1.5x? 0.5x? 0.75x?

Yes you can, but note that your off-hand weapon is no longer light and you thus suffer the harsher -4 penalties instead of just -2 (and Oversized Two-weapon Fighting is not even going to help.)

Matthew
2008-02-21, 02:37 PM
TWF penalties only apply during your full attack. AoO are made at your normal attack bonus.

Just to further clarify, it should be noted that Off Hand Penalties (-4) are different from Two Weapon Fighting Penalties. If your character has Two Weapon Fighting, it is usually thought that he is Ambidextrous (since that 3e Feat was subsumed into Two Weapon Fighting in 3.5) and does not suffer the Off Hand Penalty. However, I don't think that whether this is the case was ever made perfectly clear. No doubt Lord Silvanos will know if it has been. :smallwink:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-21, 02:50 PM
Just to further clarify, it should be noted that Off Hand Penalties (-4) are different from Two Weapon Fighting Penalties. If your character has Two Weapon Fighting, it is usually thought that he is Ambidextrous (since that 3e Feat was subsumed into Two Weapon Fighting in 3.5) and does not suffer the Off Hand Penalty. However, I don't think that whether this is the case was ever made perfectly clear. No doubt Lord Silvanos will know if it has been. :smallwink:

The closest we have is the RotG articles (Matthew provided the link himself :smalltongue: ) where Skip Williams says that you can freely change your off-hand designation every round, even without the TWF feat.


Off Hand, Off-Hand Weapon: When attacking with two weapons, the character must designate one of his hands as his off hand; the weapon held in that hand is treated as his off-hand weapon. The game rules don’t really care about whether you’re right-handed or left-handed, and it’s even OK to change your off hand designation from one round to the next.

Escef
2008-02-22, 08:39 AM
The two-weapon fighting rules are about getting extra attacks, not about using different weapons. An archer with quick draw can get a full attack action in and then draw a melee weapon so that he threatens, then on his next turn sheath it to full attack with the bow (again), then (subject to DM places a limit on free actions) re-draw the melee weapon. None of this incures two-weapon fighting penalties.

Similarly, if you are weilding a 2-handed weapon, you can still choose to make unarmed strikes (which by RAW do not need to be made with the hands or arms). In fact, if you have a BAB of +6 or higher you can freely intermingle your armed and unarmed attacks when using iteritive attacks. Once again, two-weapon fighting rules only apply if you are attempting to gain more attacks than you are otherwise entitled to.

If you weild a polearm and have Improved Unarmed Strike you threaten out to 10' with the polearm (though not adjecent asquares) and you threaten adjacent squares with your unarmed strike. If you have multiple Attacks of Opportunity and two enemies rush past you, you may strike them with the polearm or an unarmed strike at no penalty. Even if the second AoO is with a different weapon as the first, you are not getting an attack you would not be entitled to.

Example: You are standing next to a corner in the dungeon weilding a glaive. It is a four way intersection, and you are trying to hold your tunnel. You have IAS and Combat Reflexes. An enemy in front of you tries to dash past, but triggers an AoO when he moves out of your glaive's threat range. You cut him down. Another enemy then dashes from your right, where he had cover from the glaive, and tries to get past you. If he moves while inside the area threatened by your IAS you may take an AoO on him with your IAS at no penalty.

Clear?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-22, 08:48 AM
An archer with quick draw can get a full attack action in and then draw a melee weapon so that he threatens, then on his next turn sheath it to full attack with the bow (again), then (subject to DM places a limit on free actions) re-draw the melee weapon. None of this incures two-weapon fighting penalties.


A small nitpick, sheathing a weapon is not a free action even with Quick Draw. He could drop it and draw a third weapon though.

Matthew
2008-02-22, 09:19 AM
The two-weapon fighting rules are about getting extra attacks, not about using different weapons.

I am pretty sure John is trying to get extra attacks; he's following the example laid out in the FAQ where you can use Two Weapon Fighting to make an attack with a Two Handed Weapon and Armour Spikes, treating the former as his Primary Weapon and the latter as his Off Hand Weapon.



If you weild a polearm and have Improved Unarmed Strike you threaten out to 10' with the polearm (though not adjecent asquares) and you threaten adjacent squares with your unarmed strike. If you have multiple Attacks of Opportunity and two enemies rush past you, you may strike them with the polearm or an unarmed strike at no penalty. Even if the second AoO is with a different weapon as the first, you are not getting an attack you would not be entitled to.

No, that is one of the things that the articles above linked discuss. One of the weapons (or really hands) must be designated Primary and all others are treated as 'Off Hand'. If your character has Two Weapon Fighting, then there is no penalty during an AoO (as far as can be determined). If you do not have Two Weapon Fighting then during an AoO, the Off Hand Weapon suffers -4 to hit. If you have Two Weapon fighting there is no AB penalty, but you still suffer 0.5 Strength Bonus to Damage.

If, for instance, your character is armed with a Long Sword and Short Sword, but has not attacked with them this Round, then he may use either during an AoO without penalty. However, if a second AoO is triggered, then the one he used in the previous AoO is treated as the Primary Weapon and any others he uses are Off Hand. Furthermore, during his action on the same Round the weapons/hands already established as Primary and Off Hand apply. The designation may only be changed on the following round. Amusingly, if he were to drop the Primary Weapon and transfer the Off Hand Weapon into his Primary Hand, it would become the Primary Weapon for the Round.

Leon
2008-02-22, 09:30 AM
No, that is one of the things that the articles above linked discuss. One of the weapons (or really hands) must be designated Primary and all others are treated as 'Off Hand'. If your character has Two Weapon Fighting, then there is no penalty during an AoO (as far as can be determined). If you do not have Two Weapon Fighting then during an AoO, the Off Hand Weapon suffers -4 to hit. If you have Two Weapon fighting there is no AB penalty, but you still suffer 0.5 Strength Bonus to Damage.

Thats something i wasn't aware of - i'll have to keep that in mind for my druid.
Till now i've been just attacking normally with what ever depending on the distance

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-22, 09:50 AM
Thats something i wasn't aware of - i'll have to keep that in mind for my druid.
Till now i've been just attacking normally with what ever depending on the distance

Keep in mind that this does not apply to natural weapon attacks....

Matthew
2008-02-22, 05:29 PM
Just to be clear, another example:

Fighter 20
Attributes: Strength 30
Feats: Quick Draw
Equipment: Long Sword +5, Dagger +5,

Round 1
a) Fight designates his left hand as his Primary Hand
b) Fighter attacks with his Long Sword in his right hand (Off Hand) at AB 31 for DB 1D8+10
c) Free Action – “There is something I haven’t told you.”
d) Free Action – “I am left handed.”
e) Free Action – Fighter switches his Long Sword to his left hand.
f) Full Attack declared – Fighter attacks with his Long Sword in his left hand at AB 30 for DB 1D8+15
g) Free Action – Fighter uses Quick Draw to draw his Dagger +5 with his right hand
h) Full Attack continues – Fighter attacks with his Dagger in his right hand at AB 21 for DB 1D4+10
i) Fighter takes a 5’ step back
j) Free Action – Fighter drops his Long Sword
k) Free Action – Fighter switches his Dagger to his left hand
l) Full Attack continues – Fighter throws his Dagger with his left hand at AB 20 for DB 1D4+10

John Campbell
2008-02-22, 09:32 PM
I am pretty sure John is trying to get extra attacks; he's following the example laid out in the FAQ where you can use Two Weapon Fighting to make an attack with a Two Handed Weapon and Armour Spikes, treating the former as his Primary Weapon and the latter as his Off Hand Weapon.

I was originally just wondering whether my unarmed strike still threatened while I was wielding the guisarme. The more I investigated that, though, the more questions I had, and the fewer answers I was sure of. I think I've got it straight now, though.

So... I have a Fighter/Rogue who has Improved Unarmed Strike and Combat Reflexes, and currently a low enough BAB that I only get one attack normally. I don't have Two-Weapon Fighting yet, but I'll be picking it up in a few levels. This means that:

I can wield a guisarme and my unarmed strike at the same time. One has to be designated primary and one secondary. If the guisarme is primary and the unarmed strike is secondary, I can attack with the guisarme at my normal to-hit bonus and 1.5x Str to damage, or the unarmed strike at -4 to hit and 0.5x Str. Or I can attack with both, as a full-attack action, which adds an additional -4 to hit penalty to both attacks. Designating the guisarme as secondary is a bad idea because no one, including the designers, knows what the Str bonus multiplier for it should be.

I threaten at 10', with the guisarme, and at 5', with the unarmed strike. I still get the -4 to hit penalty on attacks of opportunity with the unarmed strike (as secondary), and get no penalty for attacks of opportunity with the guisarme (as primary), and the Str modifiers are the same as above. Whether I attacked with one or both during my own action is irrelevant (except that previous primary/secondary designations continue to apply), and the additional -4 fighting-with-two-weapons penalty doesn't apply to taking attacks of opportunity with both weapons during a round.

Once I get Two-Weapon Fighting, my secondary weapon will no longer be at -4 to hit, and the penalty for using both at once will drop to -2. This means I'll be able to attack with the guisarme, at normal to-hit bonus and 1.5x Str, or with the unarmed strike, at normal to-hit and 0.5x Str, or full-attack with both, at -2 to hit on both and the same Str multipliers. And I'll threaten at both 10' and 5' with the respective weapons, and my attacks of opportunity will have no to-hit penalties with either weapon, though the unarmed strike will still be at 0.5x Str bonus.

Is this all correct?

Leon
2008-02-22, 11:53 PM
In a related matter.

If i have a +2 Defending Glaive and sink the +2 into Armour - do i still have to attack with the glaive or can i use my Unarmed strike instead

It used to not matter (ie before the Enhancement) but now i wonder, typical combat starts with foes out at 10ft with Polearm and then they move in and i switch to Unarmed

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-23, 03:10 AM
Looks ok to me John.


In a related matter.

If i have a +2 Defending Glaive and sink the +2 into Armour - do i still have to attack with the glaive or can i use my Unarmed strike instead

It used to not matter (ie before the Enhancement) but now i wonder, typical combat starts with foes out at 10ft with Polearm and then they move in and i switch to Unarmed

If you are willing to take the TWF penalties you can designate the Glaive as your off-hand to get the armor bonus. You need to use the weapon to actually defend yourself, so the bonus is not a free bonus, but you do not need to make attack rolls for it if there is nothing within threat range (you just take the penalties on you main hand(s)). (You could always say that you attack the darkness to get the benefit).

Leon
2008-02-23, 03:51 AM
Thanks for the help with that :smallsmile:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-23, 03:55 AM
Thanks for the help with that :smallsmile:

No problem. :smallsmile:

Defending weapons is a reoccurring topic so there is a little chance it has to been shown in more detail later in this thread, when someone tries to counter what I just said. :smallamused:

Matthew
2008-02-23, 09:40 AM
Is this all correct?

As far as I can see, yes!



If you are willing to take the TWF penalties you can designate the Glaive as your off-hand to get the armor bonus. You need to use the weapon to actually defend yourself, so the bonus is not a free bonus, but you do not need to make attack rolls for it if there is nothing within threat range (you just take the penalties on you main hand(s)). (You could always say that you attack the darkness to get the benefit).

Might as well take a 5' step back and actually attack with it, though, ehy?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-23, 09:57 AM
Might as well take a 5' step back and actually attack with it, though, ehy?

I actually considered mentioning it, but I thought it was so obvious that he probably was aware of that possibility and was more concerned about situations where this common strategy was not available or for some other reason not optimal. :smallwink:

Besides, this is not the character optimization boards. :smalltongue:

Matthew
2008-02-23, 10:28 AM
I couldn't resist. :smallbiggrin: To be honest, I just mentioned it in case he wasn't aware he could take a 5' step between non iterative attacks.



Besides, this is not the character optimization boards. :smalltongue:

Heh, heh. I think the advice would have been quite different if it was!

Leon
2008-02-23, 10:39 AM
I couldn't resist. :smallbiggrin: To be honest, I just mentioned it in case he wasn't aware he could take a 5' step between non iterative attacks.
Heh, heh. I think the advice would have been quite different if it was!

I'm sure they would be shocked at the way i play a Druid :smalltongue:

Situations being quired for are ones where stepping back isn't the best idea and such

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-23, 10:51 AM
I couldn't resist. :smallbiggrin: To be honest, I just mentioned it in case he wasn't aware he could take a 5' step between non iterative attacks.

You can also take them between iterative attacks. :smalltongue:



Heh, heh. I think the advice would have been quite different if it was!

Yes, but at least you know what you are in for.
Other places you might come asking for advice on building, say a fighter-type, and get responses like:

"Play PUN PUN you N00B!!!!!!11111ONEELEVEN!
:smalltongue:

Matthew
2008-02-23, 11:04 AM
I'm sure they would be shocked at the way i play a Druid :smalltongue:

I'm sure.


Situations being quired for are ones where stepping back isn't the best idea and such

Right you are.


You can also take them between iterative attacks. :smalltongue:

So I hear.


Yes, but at least you know what you are in for.
Other places you might come asking for advice on building, say a fighter-type, and get responses like:

"Play PUN PUN you N00B!!!!!!11111ONEELEVEN!
:smalltongue:

And thus they reveal who is in fact the true N00B... (or if I were perhaps to replace the 00 with O, it might be a more accurate description).

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-02-23, 11:10 AM
And thus they reveal who is in fact the true N00B... (or if I were perhaps to replace the 00 with O, it might be a more accurate description).

Yup, it is near to perfect signaling. :smallwink:

artaxerxes
2008-02-23, 11:59 AM
Interesting side bar..

If you make an attack of opportunity with either your guisarme or your unarmed attack you do not suffer the two weapon penalties.

Two Weapon penalties are only invoked during a two weapon attack action (excepting dual strike style feats), unlike say power attack which penalises (and adds bonus damage) to all attacks until your next initiative. A little bonus to reactive two weapon style fighters.

Matthew
2008-02-23, 12:05 PM
Indeed. Though, as we have been discussing, they would still suffer the normal 'off hand' penalty (-4 AB and 0.5 Strength Bonus to Damage), unless they actually had the Two Weapon Fighting Feat and the DM confirmed that it eliminates the AB penalty in that situation.

freetobeuandme
2008-02-24, 11:23 AM
what do you want?
what do you want?
i want rock 'n' roll
ALL RIGHT!
ROCK OF AGES