OOTS #531 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

I'm cutting this pretty close to the "Danger Zone" of 9:00 am to 8:00 pm Eastern time, when people are sitting at their computers at work in the US (and thus get notified immediately when the RSS feed updates). Expect slow server performance; I might need to shut the message boards down if it gets too much.

[Maxymiuk]

Cat fight! Cat fight! Cat fight!

But seriously, I love the banter. It's almost like having Roy back and smacktalking baddies. :smallbiggrin:

[Yendor]

On the move again!

As expected, Haley never suspected a thing about the Cloister.

[chesch]

Celia really needs to get the new book ... humans for dummies

and what happened in Greysky City??

[TheMeanDM]

gerat, great stuff Rich..once again!

[Laurentio]

Uhm... Celya seems a little off-character, but honestly she never expressed a full 3-d character to be loyal to, before now.
Anyway, she is clearly NOT a stereotype air-minded creature. Maybe became stone for one hour makes your personality more... concrete?

In RPG terms, anyway, this comic is the visual definition of "The DM wants you to know that you failed everything. Times to go to the railroad, lad! Train will leave in a few minutes"

Laurentio

[Shadowcaller]

(Third place in posting aint bad) *Edit: damn...*
The rail-road-plot is on the road again, hurray!

[Lira]

YES! The plot is advancing! Great comic.

[Krelon]

Issue 531 and OotS is still getting better and better

So Celia is not a random mayfly, she is really speeding things up. Nice character developemrnt since the first time in the dungeon. I wonder if she becomes a permanent cast member, I think I'd like it.

[Doran]

Hmm, you know its interesting that Roy is now in the same position as the audience, so he can act as a commentator. I'm alos suprised we haven't checked in on the bad guys and the paladin subplot yet.

Interesting Comic!

[Mordokai]

I'm getting fond of Celia. Well, fonder anyway :smallbiggrin:

I love this comic and the witty banter beetwen Celia and Haley. It's great to see something like that. And three cheers for plot movement!

[FujinAkari]

Woo hoo!

Off to adventure, away from this stuffy old city :P

[banjo1985]

Hurray go Celia!

It's about time someone shook off the half arsed plan Haley seems so insistent on sticking to. She doesn't want to go find Elan again just in case he's in a cheap pine box. Well tough, the unstoppable train of plot will see to that! :smallbiggrin:

Nice comic as always.

I wonder whether Mr Scruffy's going to be happy leaving the city? I'm guessing he was born there, and he doesn't seem the kind of cat to take things quietly. :smalleek:

[Shatteredtower]

Wow. Celia's bordering on Mary Sue territory there.

[Emperor Ing]

Ya ever smelled a Cloister spell?

smells like really old french fries. :smallconfused:

[MintDragon]

Very good comic
a "twofer" one deal for dead boyfriend.
fairy dust

[Surfing HalfOrc]

And we are moving! It's been great with all the background info and "where are they now," but it's time to get this show on the road!

I wonder if they will take anyone from the Resistance along... They are a tad light on muscle. Belkar kicks major rear end, but up till Roy's death and Durkon's departire it's been a two-three man front line. Now it's only the Belkster. Even Belkar could use a little back up, or at least someone to help him avoid flanking.

Of course, now that Haley is moving out of the city, will the story-line switch back to Elan and Co?

[SPoD]

Celia definitely seems to have the "outsider perspective" (no pun intended) of not being to close to the events to make a rational call about them. She's not hung up on the fact that they let the city fall or anything.

I think this is the first time we've ever seen Celia and Haley have a conversation. Haley was crypto-mute last time Celia was around. It's been my experience that many women act differently when only other women are in the room than when men are around (especially men they are attracted to, as in the case of Roy). This may just be a side of Celia that we haven't seen before because we haven't seen her in this situation.

[hajo]

Looks like they have a long trip before them, with Roy as 'baggage'...

[Ink]

Oh gods, I've just been reminded how much I hate having the blanket pulled off while sleeping. It's the worst way to wake someone up. Were I Haley, Celia would've received a boot to the face.

Adventure ahoy! It'll be good to see some action soon and get away from these dialogue-centric strips. Hooray!

[Tal9922]

I didn't care much for the punch, but at least we can be damn sure no one will refer to this as a filler strip...

OR WILL THEY?! (Dun dun dunnh!)

[Castamir]

The Azure City half of the party needed a balls transplant pretty badly. But getting it from... Celia???

[Laurentio]

It's a filler strip.

No, ok, joking. Stop hitting, please. Really. Can't you at least aim higher, won't you? I'd like to have children, in a future

and now, let's go to see the city that Elan built for the refugees fleet...

Laurentio

[Atalan]

PERFECT! :D :D :D

I personally think part of the reason Haley has stayed put is a "proof" thing. She didn't know about the Cloister, so she assumed Vaarsuvius could locate them and that the others would come looking. I think there was a bit of her brain that needed some more proof that Elan cares for her and was stubbornly going "No, I'm not going looking for him, he has to come to me!"

[dish]

Indeed, it'll be nice to get moving, and we can pretty much guarantee that V will find them soon what with all the searching spells s/he's been casting. But I'm still saddened that no one has had a close enough connection with Roy to see him yet. I was sure it would be Belkar and the MoJ - but obviously not. (Maybe if Roy said the word to activate it, mind?) Oh well, we might meet Julia in Cliffport and find out if that works...

[Clertar]

As always, awesome!

[Closet_Skeleton]

This one was actually funny, I was starting to worry about this comic.

[Shademan]

belkar outside the city?
KILLING SPREE!!!

[carais]

One wonders when Celia will take the time to consider what humans are not capable of else. The thing with the electrical energy might have rung a bell, but really, she's bright, she should see that humans and magic do not go hand in hand as is the case for herself.

Other than that - oops. Got lectured, Haley, didn't she? :)

[factotum]

and what happened in Greysky City??

I'm guessing it's where Haley was a member of the Thieves' Guild in "On the Origin of PCs", although it doesn't make it obvious it is.


If it is, then there's a very peeved guildmaster and an assassin who would both like a few words with Ms. Starshine...

[T-Ice]

Celia taking Roy's corpse with her? I suppose we all carry long-dead relationships as baggage.

Horrible puns aside, we get to Elan. Namely, am I the only one who thinks Celia took a pointer from him on when to lay out the most important point in an argument? Some lawyer.

[RMS Oceanic]

As excited as I am that the plot is starting to move again, I can't help but feel something will happen in the next two or three strips to inhibit this plan to leave the city, like Haley's loyalty to the resistance, or Redcloak/Xykon/Tsukiko discovering the hideout or something.

Still, a highly entertaining strip.

[Half-blood]

Well if they get out, who will lead the ressistence?

[Castamir]

In one corner: Haley & Celia.

In the other: depending on the city, either a hiper-hot fiend chick or a quite hot, well, someone from Origins.

Me likes.

[SteveMB]

One wonders when Celia will take the time to consider what humans are not capable of else. The thing with the electrical energy might have rung a bell, but really, she's bright, she should see that humans and magic do not go hand in hand as is the case for herself.

Bright people can be fooled by their own preconceptions and tacit assumptions -- in fact, someone who's generally been right before might be more rather than less susceptible to that pitfall.

[Useless]

Didn't Julia mention that her school has barriers up against ghosts visiting or something? So Roy may end up stuck outside, and Julia probably won't come out for no reason...

Still, good comic, hopes for more soon!

[Nightfall]

My favorite line:

:roy: "Connecting the dots in 3...2...1..."

[Helanna]

Haley will have to go with Celia. Celia wouldn't last two seconds outside the city limits alone with Belkar. They'd better find some random encounters - fast.

[Yendor]

Well if they get out, who will lead the ressistence?
Niu, presumably. She reports directly to Haley, so there's a fair chance she's the highest level character left.

Actually, Haley's leaving may improve relations with the other groups, as a major point of suspicion will be gone.

[Blaznak]

Well, Celia certainly is one tough cookie! Wow, way to go!
I loved the "3, 2, 1" bit as Roy waits for Haley to figure things out. A nice touch.
A fun strip!

[Belkar Rocks]

Hooray! Plot movement! I'm so excited, I can't wait to see what comes next. Only, of course, I have to wait, because, like, I can't just magic up the next episode or travel in time or stuff. So there. :smalltongue:

[carebearbecky]

Wordy... but I really enjoyed it - and looks like we might suddenly be moving on rather rapidly!

:smallbiggrin:

Can't wait for the next one (but then I never can)!

[Skelengar]

The giant seems to have been reading up on our theories.

"So much for hearing ghosts in your sleep."

"These clothes you loaned me are great, even if they are a little roomy at the hips. Actually, a lot roomy at the hips... I had to pin the waist."

[Weiser_Cain]

Yay, the adventurers will be adventuring! Well half of them, no I meant the other half, they ones not running the resistance, ok sure that counts but not in the way... nevermind.

[Kilbia]

I read this one this morning with my husband over my shoulder, and I looked at him when we were done and said "Yup, Celia's a NPC all right."

I can just *see* the GM finally getting sick and tired of the party being split up, which probably means s/he's been needing to run alternating sessions, and odds are the players have also been whining about why the others haven't found them yet, so s/he finally snapped and dropped the plot hammer on the half of the party that needed to move.

[Adventurer]

Best strip in a while, arguably one of the best ever!

Celia finally gets the plot moving with a very clever and convincing dialogue, several jokes crammed in-between the plot-advancing dialogue, and Roy's "3,2,1" was absolutely hillarious! Not to mention the two-dead-boyfriends-for-one line:smallbiggrin:

I loved how Celia did all that from concern from her boyfriend. Here I was worried she wouldn't care anymore. You rock girl!

[Adeptus]

Brilliance!!

Best punchline in a while "need help finding the door?". :smallsmile:

[Roderick_BR]

"You are not succeeding in making me LESS grumpy." That made me chuckle so much.
Haley looks so cute lying down. And damn if Celia won't be a damn fine lawyer. :smallamused:
And finally someone found out about the Cloister spell. Finally the storyline will get more fast-paced, hopefully :smallbiggrin:
And poor Haley, but Roy's "connecting the dots in 3... 2... 1..." was just hilarious :smallbiggrin: And Celia's disappointments on human's limited abilities gets funnier and funnier.
I kinda agree on the rail-road thing. It's more a case of the DM messing with the character thing, since Haley had no way of knowing what the weird sky is about, being that she's not a spellcaster. But awesome anyway.

[innk]

Finally!!!

[Mauve Shirt]

:smallbiggrin:
"I'm sure some treasure-laden monsters will throw themselves in front of your weapons"

[Aerysil]

"Do I need to tell you where the door is, too?"

Hee.

You know, she is annoying, isn't she.

[Niknokitueu]

Wait... Wait... I can hear the sky coming crashing down.

Nope, false alarm. Well, some people are going to have to eat some humble pie now that Rich has actually revealed why Haley stayed so long.

(and gues what? I was right :biggrin:)


Well done on another comic, Rich. A bit light on Jokes, but there was a lot of plot to reveal for just one strip.

"I had to pin it..." (heh heh).

Well, pretty sure that Celia is not pregnant, to boot. Despite the little tummy bulge for the last two comics...

Further Edit:


Actually, Haley's leaving may improve relations with the other groups, as a major point of suspicion will be gone.
Unsure of Rich's take on playing the 'great game', but historically players of the game do not seem to need any actual proof of anything. Haley leaving will just help prove her guilt in their eyes, which will cement their views, and possibly lead to a takeover action due to the presumed power vaccum.

Meh - IMO Politicians should all be lined up against a wall...
"You can tell he is lying - you can see his lips move."


Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[musicnerd]

I love the wordplay on Joseph Campbell in the title, Giant :smallcool:

I hope they are able to get out of the city! I'm really enjoying Celia, but she would get really annoying in real life, wouldn't she? :smalleek:

[HolderofSecrets]

Horray for plot movement. Now though I am begining to wonder who can see Roy or if anyone can? I still Belker can but he probably wants people pyschoatic not simply insane.

[Gandal]

...the Linear Guild's there, right? :smalleek:

[Mauve Shirt]

She's pretty right about the "stop worrying and do something!" though. I hope once they get out of the city either V finds them or Roy is able to speak to Julia. But I still don't know how Roy would get past the school's wards that kept his dad from visiting, unless Celia can think of a way.

[Forealms]

Hooray! Plot movement!

Whoo!! And I like where this is leading, too, but I have to wonder... Will all the resistances join together now that Haley is leaving? Will The Resistance/Rebel Alliance/Azure City Underground die out with their highest-level members leaving?

Only time will tell.

[Bayar]

And we are leaving Azure city !

wanted to add something to the discussions, but forgot what...:smallfrown:

[PePe QuiCoSE]

good to see that Celia can be as annoying as Roy when they are totally sure of themselves.

[RandomLogic]

Sweet! Finally getting this thing moving! ;)

Also I knew there was a reason I liked Celia! "I'm the only person who doesn't think you are their fearless leader, so its my job to set you straight!" Excellent...

[shylocxs]

I wonder if you get any bonuses applied for a Sneak Attack when sticking it up a bony fairy butt?

[Sengoku]

Connection to dots...3...2...1...

Lol!! :smallbiggrin:

[Wikkin]

Celia is.... is me! I may have a new favorite charcter.

Don't kill her, Giant! :smallmad:

[Wender]

It's been my experience that many women act differently when only other women are in the room than when men are around (especially men they are attracted to, as in the case of Roy). This may just be a side of Celia that we haven't seen before because we haven't seen her in this situation.

:roy: But I'm RIGHT HERE! Hello?!

[Fiery Diamond]

CEILIA IS TEH AWESOME!
That was just so awesome. You tell her, girl.
Oh, gosh, that was a really good comic. Yay for Rich Burlew!
Don't ever kill off Celia... if she keeps this up she might replace Haley on my favorites list.

Nice jokes too:
"Connecting the dots in 3...2...1..."
"The DMG prices don't take into account the additional expenses I incurred smuggling these weapons past the hobgoblins."
"Do I need to tell you where the door is too?"

OOTS rocks!

-Fiery Diamond

[chibibar]

CEILIA IS TEH AWESOME!
That was just so awesome. You tell her, girl.
Oh, gosh, that was a really good comic. Yay for Rich Burlew!
Don't ever kill off Celia... if she keeps this up she might replace Haley on my favorites list.

Nice jokes too:
"Connecting the dots in 3...2...1..."
"The DMG prices don't take into account the additional expenses I incurred smuggling these weapons past the hobgoblins."
"Do I need to tell you where the door is too?"

OOTS rocks!

-Fiery Diamond

Hehe LOL ROFLMAO!!!! this is great :) I love it.

[Fabio_MP]

New comic is up.

good one

and I hope to see the order quickly reunited!

ps... stupid human senses :)

[Calemyr]

I wouldn't call Celia a "Mary Sue". Her character setup is quite simple: "a notably intelligent outsider with a gift for making compelling arguments (lawyer) and more experience with metahumanity than your average elemental - yet too little to avoid racial misunderstandings." She's not perfect. She's already pointed out that Haley could certainly overpower her (between level adjustment and racial hit die, her attack modifiers would certainly suck). All she's managed to do so far is take Roy's death with inhuman grace and make compelling arguments... because she's an inhuman lawyer.

I can see why Haley is so frustrated, though. For the entire expanse of this comic, she's been the brains of the outfit the way only a good rogue can be. V may be smarter, but the elf lacks common sense or any interest at all in things that don't involve the enthusiastic application of arcane forces. Roy is plenty smart, especially for a pure-class fighter, but it's a very fighter-like intelligence: direct, cutting, and honest. Haley has been able to run circles around Roy, and V is on her side in most cases. Celia, on the other hand, is the only character (not counting bonus books) to engage her in a war of wits on an equal footing. Combined with her knack for saying what she shouldn't and not saying what she should, it's no wonder Haley wants to kick her derrie-air.

Finally, the Cloister is purely abjuration, is it? Well, that at least makes it quite possible that there's no physical element to it. Most barrier spells are either conjuration (mage armor) or evocation (wall of force), after all, but abjuration does have shield and prismatic wall, so that doesn't mean there isn't one. Honestly, I have a hard time buying that an epic spell (as this one seems to be) would let people come and go as they wish. That's just not very... cloisterly?

[Laurentio]

Not to be negative, but I fear we are going to have some interlude right at hand (maybe after one strip or two of Belkar dry humor before leaving the city). We left the "spell casting half of the group" searching a spot to found a new fortified city something like... months ago?
It will require several strips to recap everything they did in the meanwhile (or only a few, extra-verbose). Even because there is no real action to go for a while. The bad guy is sitting on his bony back, all conflictual villains are dead or jailed... and I don't expect to see any new antagonist for a long time.

Laurentio

[Pronounceable]

I like the gunrunner duergar.

[Morgan Wick]

Well, that takes care of Celia's importance to the plot.

Is it just me, or has Roy lost sight of why he went down there? Celia has filled the role Roy was going to, and what purpose does Roy have for contacting Julia now? I just don't see how Roy's ghost is still important.

It's funny how this strip alternately supports the points of Fujin and David from the last two strip discussion threads. Mostly David, but Fujin gets a last laugh in at the end. (And I hope to GOD I didn't just rekindle that flame war. And this really makes me wonder if the Giant really does read the forums...)

I see one of two things happening:
*The Cloister prevents physical movement, and Celia, Haley, and Belkar learn this at the worst possible time. (This is doubtful, though, since Celia knows of the Cloister's existence. Presumably she would know of any other effects.)
*The reunited OOTS returns to Azure City to find everything has gone to hell and all three resistances have been crushed.

Also:
:haley:: But it doesn't matter, because I don't have the kind of money needed. Not anymore...
This is arguably a big character moment, possibly the severance of the last connection Haley yet had to her money-grubbing ways in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools (and arguably, early in Paladin Blues). (Of course, one wonders how she's going to spring her father NOW, assuming she's still concerned about that...)

[Yendor]

I see one of two things happening:
*The Cloister prevents physical movement, and Celia, Haley, and Belkar learn this at the worst possible time. (This is doubtful, though, since Celia knows of the Cloister's existence. Presumably she would know of any other effects.)
That wouldn't explain how the weapons smuggler got in, or more importantly(?), the flumphs.

[Moff Chumley]

I like the gunrunner duergar.

Indeed, he was the best part of an awsome comic.

[Lunaya]

I wonder if Vaarsuvius is even still in commission. Going too long without rest isn't healthy for wizards and I have to wonder just how long s/he can stay on hir feet. Once Haley and company get out of the city, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a while for V to get ahold of them.

[JasonDoomsblade]

Hey how bout that. Celia has ANOTHER outfit.

[teratorn]

And so it starts, the Belkster and the babes.

Haley, Celia, Julia (caster), Niu (meatshield) and some cleric (healer)

[dogmac]

Hey... my teeth are tingling now. And there was I thinking I needed to go to the dentist. It's ACTUALLY that Sydney is under a Cloister spell. Makes perfect sense now.

Great work Celia! Though, am I the only one who wonders if she needs to chop holes in Haley's clothes for her wings?

[Eogan]

Great work Celia! Though, am I the only one who wonders if she needs to chop holes in Haley's clothes for her wings?

Her wings come out of her hair, obvobv.

[smart thog]

And so it starts, the Belkster and the babes.

Haley, Celia, Julia (caster), Niu (meatshield) and some cleric (healer)

That is very poor reasoning. One, Julia is way weaker then anyone else in the party, throwing off all kinds of level appropriate encounters, two, Niu is a rogue, three, the only clerics they have are from 3th-4th level, four, Niu is needed to lead the resistance, and five, you forgot that it I have not argued with anybody today over trivial predictions, and I need to fit my geek quota in.

[warmachine]

Is there any nubile female that Haley hasn't been bitchy with? Never let it be said women are the gentler sex.

[elynnia]

Hey... my teeth are tingling now. And there was I thinking I needed to go to the dentist. It's ACTUALLY that Sydney is under a Cloister spell. Makes perfect sense now.

Hey, I'm in Sydney too and my teeth are tingling...and I thought it was just me. How 'bout that. :smallwink:

[Karu]

I was starting to have doubt about the comic, but this one strip just made me hooked again. Let's go, move on girls!

[King of Nowhere]

Today I passed two exams at university, and I taught "This day will be perfect if just there is a new OOTS online, possibly a multi-page one". Then I found not only a two-page update, but also a fantastic strip.
I took this as a sign that the time was come to join the club, so i registered and this is my first post. WOOOO!!!!
This is one of the best comic in months. And I'm NOT one of those who wanted the plot moving quickly at all cost, I really enjoied the last 40 strips.

these clothes are a little roomy in the hips
I'm getting an early start on sleeping until midday (this is so like me)
I incurred significant expenses
dead boyfriend resurrections
What kind of lame subpar senses are you people using, anyway?
Priceless

[bibliophile]

Huzah! The plot advances!


Is there any importance to the fact that xykon cast cloister from a headband? Where did he get it anyway?

[HUMVEE Driver]

Was that a duergar in the comic? Very cool; I love the way he is drawn. Also makes sense that a hardworking duergar would be the one to find his way through the caves to make a profit selling weapons in the middle of a war. The lizardman bodyguard was a great touch, too.

[David Argall]

Let's see...

Celia is apparently not knocked up. Of course, she may well stay slender in all cases, but the odds of an early arrival for Roy Jr. look poor.

Haley was only staying in town because she had made a stupid mistake.

There is definite physical contact with the outside world. [5000 gp for 12 flaming arrows = 416.67 is not unreasonable under the circumstances. Book for 50 is normally 8000 = 160. Add in the difficulties of smuggling and the price can be a bargain.]

"...that irritating Cloister spell..." It appears that Haley did learn of the cloister spell somewhere along the line. Arguably this is just writer error, but it is not unreasonable that Xykon told several people what spell he had cast and the knowledge spread until it reached Haley. [The language assumes that Haley already knew of the spell. And Celia has not demonstrated the ability to identify high level spells.]

There really should be several cities closer than Cliffport. That's about 1000 miles. London is 214 miles to Paris, 583 to Berlin, 785 to Madrid, ... and there are a host of lesser, and closer, cities.


Not to be negative, but I fear we are going to have some interlude right at hand (maybe after one strip or two of Belkar dry humor before leaving the city). We left the "spell casting half of the group" searching a spot to found a new fortified city something like... months ago?

Nope, it's only been a bit over 24 hours. Hinjo made the decision to find a new place to settle. Roy lost interest in them, but quickly started watching Haley, who rescued the prisoners in the morning, and now gets woken up the next "morning".


I don't expect to see any new antagonist for a long time.

This strip, or any D&D game for that matter, needs lots of antagonists. We will have several new ones, and soon.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

i just realised, wasn't V going to cast her new scrying on belkar, for the sake of thoroughness? perhaps he/she/it will have the timing to catch them after they've left the city limits

[SteveDJ]

Indeed, it'll be nice to get moving, and we can pretty much guarantee that V will find them soon what with all the searching spells s/he's been casting. But I'm still saddened that no one has had a close enough connection with Roy to see him yet. I was sure it would be Belkar and the MoJ - but obviously not. (Maybe if Roy said the word to activate it, mind?) Oh well, we might meet Julia in Cliffport and find out if that works...

Hmmm, I wonder...

V has been using more and more powerful spells trying to scry for Haley. It reminds me of cartoons where a character is trying to break open a locked door, and tries harder and harder, then when going at it full force, someone opens the door, character sails through the opening, much hilarity ensues...

So, I wonder what will happen when V casts this near-Epic scry spell, just as Haley leaves the confines of the Cloister... Hmmm, indeed...

[ref]

Awesome strip. A new arc is being formed. We'll see how it goes...

[Morgan Wick]

"...that irritating Cloister spell..." It appears that Haley did learn of the cloister spell somewhere along the line. Arguably this is just writer error, but it is not unreasonable that Xykon told several people what spell he had cast and the knowledge spread until it reached Haley. [The language assumes that Haley already knew of the spell. And Celia has not demonstrated the ability to identify high level spells.]

That's a real reach. Haley looks even more idiotic for not thinking scrying might be blocked in that instance. I read that line as Celia assuming Haley knew but not having learned it from her. "You couldn't sense the presence of an abjuration by the way your teeth tingle?" - I doubt Celia would learn of an abjuration by herself and not the details, and I doubt Haley would know the details but not precisely what it was - or the rather critical detail of what it did! And how would Celia unequivocally "demonstrate the ability to identify high levels spells" to you? She's already done plenty Burlew hadn't established before in this sequence.


There really should be several cities closer than Cliffport. That's about 1000 miles. London is 214 miles to Paris, 583 to Berlin, 785 to Madrid, ... and there are a host of lesser, and closer, cities.

It's possible Rich doesn't have much of a sense of scale, ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) meaning he might not have a real grasp of what "a thousand miles" really means. Or he's using a different, perhaps older (either in D&D terms or real terms), definition of "mile" (the word itself originally meant "a thousand steps" back in Roman days). He may also think cities are a lot rarer in the D&D (or at least OOTS) world than in the real world, for simplicity. That's before we get to #365, when Sabine says she can make the trip in "three days? Maybe four, depending on the wind" (and remember, she's flying) and Nale remarks "Wow, that fast?"


Nope, it's only been a bit over 24 hours. Hinjo made the decision to find a new place to settle. Roy lost interest in them, but quickly started watching Haley, who rescued the prisoners in the morning, and now gets woken up the next "morning".

I was going to make this point if the forums would work at all. Well, sort of. I was basically going to say "It's been months in real time, but only about a day in the comic, if you re-read it."

That said:

i just realised, wasn't V going to cast her new scrying on belkar, for the sake of thoroughness? perhaps he/she/it will have the timing to catch them after they've left the city limits
We haven't seen anything suggesting (s)he wouldn't have done so already. Remember that the "weeks" V spent on his/her new scrying was to create the spell in the first place, assuming I'm interpreting the dialogue correctly.

I had a whole post written complete with dialogue for several potential near-future scenarios and the &*^!@$% forums wouldn't let me post and eventually it fell off the clipboard. 98JP SRVDM OSBONOIJGSDVK TIEMVGM SEJOTTE! LKDST JDVW9 NB9PSIWGJLKFNJKDFNIH KN! Anyway, here's a quick review of things I considered, which may occur in any combination:
*Start of 532: :celia:: "I mean, did it even cross your mind that scrying COULD be blocked?" (Would pretty much confirm that Rich does indeed read the forums)
*Celia's proposal to leave without Haley but with Belkar when Haley was initially resistant (no pun intended) actually made some sense, and I can see Niu insisting on that happening.
*Roy getting visited by Eugene, and told he's not appearing because he needs to cast some sort of spell. Roy tells his dad to doublecheck Durkon's location (the only story reason left I can think of for Roy to be down there) and then contact Haley/Celia. They won't leave, he insists, because "you know how long women take to get ready to go anywhere." Do you see why I'm so upset at this post getting eaten?
*:belkar:: "Spending several days in the middle of nowhere with a couple of smokin' hot babes? And I can actually kill living things again? Where do I sign up?"
*Before they leave, Celia almost casually contacts Roy with a spell to nail down where Durkon, Elan, and V are, and ends up telling Roy why his own gambit didn't work. Celia reveals to Haley that she detected him the whole time - "You didn't think I said that bit about 'I can feel him watching over us' just to be melodramatic, did you?" - and we have another moment of Celia thinking humans can do everything she can do.

[Midnight Lurker]

Well, pretty sure that Celia is not pregnant, to boot. Despite the little tummy bulge for the last two comics...

There is no tummy bulge nor ever was; her figure looks exactly the same now as it did the last two strips. Those are her hips, same as Haley and the other female characters.

She only looked odd the last two strips because her sweat pants obscured her stick figure legs. :smallsmile:

[Brother Arthur]

YAY! The Order of the Stick has a chance of becoming a team again! Thank you Giant.

(I had no idea I'd become addicted to a web comic.)

[Qov]

I would not have laughed half so hard at this strip had it not been for the impassioned forum arguments about what Haley should know, or should do or should be able to tell. When I got to the end I just had to come to the forum to see all the gloating about who pwned whom.

[DrivinAllNight]

I didn't read all of the posts from 530, but did anyone ever think that it was Haley's fear of Elan being dead that stopped her from wanting to leave? Other than that, this was a great strip, so many 530 questions answered and others quite easily laid to rest. I have a new one though, why doesn't Haley like the idea of Greysky city?

[Querzis]

It's possible Rich doesn't have much of a sense of scale, ("http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SciFiWritersHaveNoSenseOfScale) meaning he might not have a real grasp of what "a thousand miles" really means. Or he's using a different, perhaps older (either in D&D terms or real terms), definition of "mile" (the word itself originally meant "a thousand steps" back in Roman days). He may also think cities are a lot rarer in the D&D (or at least OOTS) world than in the real world, for simplicity. That's before we get to #365, when Sabine says she can make the trip in "three days? Maybe four, depending on the wind" (and remember, she's flying) and Nale remarks "Wow, that fast?"

There are not looking for just any city, they are looking for a big city where they are sure to find a high level spellcaster. Having big city with at least 100 000 beings in it every 500 miles or so doesnt sound that bad. Anyway


...the Linear Guild's there, right? :smalleek:

...maybe they are yeah.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

Nale said he left all their magic items in Cliffport and, since they dont have any money left, they could have just tried to get them back from the police (its not like there is any high level character in Cliffport police.)

[Kyeudo]

I love how the Giant has systematicly shot down every major fan theory on how Roy can communicate with the others.

The only ones remaining that I know of is "Mr. Scruffy can see Roy" and "Julia can see Roy." Who wants to bet that both go down hard in the next comic?

[Leewei]

I'm thinking it boils down to using magic, which Roy has zero training and no predisposition to do. Alternately, Roy's father punted him with "look but don't talk" capabilities.

[War]

Celia is awesome. I've been converted.

Also, Haley spent her money on the Resistance?! That's amazingly unselfish of her. After all this time, they haven't accomplished much; sitting in the city waiting to be contacted must have looked more futile by the week; and she's never really aspired to positions of responsibility anyway. (OotS second-in-command was originally more a position of scamming.) I wonder what's going on in her head these days.

[RMS Oceanic]

I have a new one though, why doesn't Haley like the idea of Greysky city?

I have a hunch that: (Origin of PCs spoilers)Greysky City is where Haley's old Thieves Guild is established, and I'm pretty sure they're still looking for her for scabbing. In fact, I'm almost certain they'll be forced to go to Greysky and Haley will have to contend with that.

[Ascension]

and now, let's go to see the city that Elan built for the refugees fleet...

The real question is...

Did he build the city on rock and roll?

:elan:

[Arutema]

The real question is...

Did he build the city on rock and roll?

:elan:
Yes. (Lyre of Building)

Also, is that a Duergar in panel 11? He looks quite pale compared to other dwarves in the comic.

[RedWizard]

Let's see...
"...that irritating Cloister spell..." It appears that Haley did learn of the cloister spell somewhere along the line. Arguably this is just writer error, but it is not unreasonable that Xykon told several people what spell he had cast and the knowledge spread until it reached Haley. [The language assumes that Haley already knew of the spell. And Celia has not demonstrated the ability to identify high level spells.]


Yes, the language assumes that Haley knew of the spell--that was the joke. Celia assumed that Haley could detect the Cloister as easily as she could. Haley had no idea that there was a "cloister" spell in effect, and the only reason she knew what it did was that Celia explained it in the same breath.

[David Argall]

"You couldn't sense the presence of an abjuration by the way your teeth tingle?" - I doubt Celia would learn of an abjuration by herself and not the details,
What Celia has demonstrated is a continuous Detect Magic, possibly limited to abjuration magic. That's a first level spell and not impressive at Haley's level. An item doing that would cost about 2000 gp. By contrast, one that would identify it as Cloister would run at least 12,000, and might not be possible even then if we assume the likely, that Cloister is an epic-level spell.

Celia would know it is an abjuration spells, and seems to learn it blocks communication, but how would she learn enough to identify it as the particular Cloister spell instead of the many other spells that do similar things?


and I doubt Haley would know the details but not precisely what it was - or the rather critical detail of what it did!
What Haley would be able to learn was the spell name. As noted, Xykon or Tsukiko might tell any number of other people what spell had been cast, who in turn would tell the spell name, but not much else, to other people, who would tell others, and eventually tell Haley. So Haley could tell Celia that Xykon had cast some super spell called Cloister without knowing it blocked communication [tho it is my contention she should have suspected that.] Celia would know of the abjuration spell that was blocking communication, and would assume Haley knew it blocked communication. So it all fits.


And how would Celia unequivocally "demonstrate the ability to identify high levels spells" to you? She's already done plenty Burlew hadn't established before in this sequence.
She has done nothing that is outside the general ability of a sorcerer of about 6th level, possibly a good deal lower. Having knowledge of epic-level spells is another matter.



I had a whole post written complete with dialogue for several potential near-future scenarios and the &*^!@$% forums wouldn't let me post and eventually it fell off the clipboard.
I often copy my post onto a wp just in case something like that happens.



I have a hunch that: (Origin of PCs spoilers)

Greysky City is where Haley's old Thieves Guild is established, and I'm pretty sure they're still looking for her for scabbing. In fact, I'm almost certain they'll be forced to go to Greysky and Haley will have to contend with that.
There are a half-dozen other ways the story could go [one of which has already been posted], and there is our writer's statement we won't need Origin to understand the strip, which doesn't necessarily rule the idea out, but is a strike against it. Still, it is possible.



There are not looking for just any city, they are looking for a big city where they are sure to find a high level spellcaster. Having big city with at least 100 000 beings in it every 500 miles or so doesnt sound that bad.
The DMG rules for community size and spellcasters can easily be improved on, but they say they only need a cleric of 7th level to cast Sending and that can be found in any large town of 5000 or more. There should be dozens of those.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html

Nale said he left all their magic items in Cliffport and, since they dont have any money left, they could have just tried to get them back from the police (its not like there is any high level character in Cliffport police.)
Now a problem with this theory is that the LG has a 3 month head start, and are moving faster than Haley will be. Given they are wanted criminals in Cliffport as well, it would be presumed they would be long gone before Haley gets near Cliffport.
Of course, it's not impossible that yet another of Nale's genius plots did not exactly work as planned, and the law managed to hold him in jail for several months, allowing him to escape just in time to find that Haley has contacted Durkon and now Elan is sailing to town...

[RMS Oceanic]

Celia would know it is an abjuration spells, and seems to learn it blocks communication, but how would she learn enough to identify it as the particular Cloister spell instead of the many other spells that do similar things? Or perhaps the simplest explaination is that Dorukan told her what it was. Assuming that it was Dorukan's headband Xykon used to cast Cloister, it isn't that much of a stretch to assume Dorukan cast it on his dungeon, to prevent people getting a good layout of it through scrying. From there it wouldn't be hard to imagine Celia asking Dorukan when she came on board what was causing that tingling in her teeth.


There are a half-dozen other ways the story could go [one of which has already been posted], and there is our writer's statement we won't need Origin to understand the strip, which doesn't necessarily rule the idea out, but is a strike against it. Still, it is possible.

The situation could be explained in the comic with a line or two. "Thought you could quit the Guild? No-one quits!"

[Morchaint]

Great comic. havent posted here in a while. gotta tell ya. keep up the good work

hmm have no clue if my avatar and sig, are within new parameters or not.

[fractal]

Or perhaps the simplest explaination is that Dorukan told her what it was. Assuming that it was Dorukan's headband Xykon used to cast Cloister, it isn't that much of a stretch to assume Dorukan cast it on his dungeon, to prevent people getting a good layout of it through scrying. From there it wouldn't be hard to imagine Celia asking Dorukan when she came on board what was causing that tingling in her teeth.
Good reasoning, although we should note that scrying was actually possible within the dungeon (Xykon had his crystal ball). However, perhaps the Cloister went down after Dorukan was killed, or Xykon could be high enough level to scry past it, or it could only prevent entry or exit (and not within-area scrying).

Anyway, I'd go with either an Arcane Sight type ability that lets Celia recognize spells, or else this Dorukan explanation. I think it's completely unreasonable to guess that Haley told Celia about a spell named Cloister off panel.

[Felixaar]

Huh. For a moment there I thought Celia had some sort of ability to know what Elan and the group were doing, since she seemed oddly specific.

...gotta admit I was dissapointed that Haley was wearing all her clothes under the blanket.

[Yendor]

I think it's completely unreasonable to guess that Haley told Celia about a spell named Cloister off panel.
...and that Celia didn't explain what it was at that time. And that Haley had failed completely to guess it had any connection with the lack of communication. Or make any attempt to find out what it did.

[pjackson]

What Celia has demonstrated is a continuous Detect Magic, possibly limited to abjuration magic. That's a first level spell and not impressive at Haley's level. An item doing that would cost about 2000 gp. By contrast, one that would identify it as Cloister would run at least 12,000, and might not be possible even then if we assume the likely, that Cloister is an epic-level spell.

Celia would know it is an abjuration spells, and seems to learn it blocks communication, but how would she learn enough to identify it as the particular Cloister spell instead of the many other spells that do similar things?

What Haley would be able to learn was the spell name. As noted, Xykon or Tsukiko might tell any number of other people what spell had been cast, who in turn would tell the spell name, but not much else, to other people, who would tell others, and eventually tell Haley. So Haley could tell Celia that Xykon had cast some super spell called Cloister without knowing it blocked communication [tho it is my contention she should have suspected that.] Celia would know of the abjuration spell that was blocking communication, and would assume Haley knew it blocked communication. So it all fits.

She has done nothing that is outside the general ability of a sorcerer of about 6th level, possibly a good deal lower. Having knowledge of epic-level spells is another matter.


The simplest explanation is that Celia made her spellcraft roll - DC 20 + spell level to identify a spell that is in place and in effect. She can see the effect of the spell. No detect magic is needed for that.
If it were an epic spell (which I doubt) the DC would be 30 - identify a strange and unusual magical effect.

Haley almost certainly lacks Spellcraft and thus can not be expected to know what the spell does.

[Lumenadducere]

Heh, it's good to see that Haley's finally getting some answers, and that she was more worried about Elan's death rather than him abandoning her.

I'm sure it won't be easy getting out of there and in touch with the others, but I hope it happens soon. I just hope there isn't a plot about Therkla trying to keep the fleet away from picking up Haley and the gang. That'd just be annoying.

[Killer Munchkin]

Main reason for leaving Azure city:

The printer is running low on the color blue....

[Sebastian Bux]

Man, this is some pretty kick ass story telling.

[El_Frenchie]

Well, Rich did a great job on this chapter. A nice good chunk of storyline and a bit of a wake up call for Haley. The fact that she didn't know about the cloister was predictable, but not to the point where it would spoil the fun of revealing it to her.

Good one.

[Belkar Rocks]

The real question is...

Did he build the city on rock and roll?

:elan:

Awesome. :smallbiggrin:

[Aristeidis]

Very nice comic and funny too. Hope the team gets back together soon. Celia's knowledge on humans (or the lack of it) is hillarious!

[Morgan Wick]

Or perhaps the simplest explaination is that Dorukan told her what it was. Assuming that it was Dorukan's headband Xykon used to cast Cloister, it isn't that much of a stretch to assume Dorukan cast it on his dungeon, to prevent people getting a good layout of it through scrying. From there it wouldn't be hard to imagine Celia asking Dorukan when she came on board what was causing that tingling in her teeth.

I think David Argall is ignoring Occam's Razor to make Haley look stupider than she does, but that's not what Xykon says in #484. Granted, what he does say is clearly intended to be funny and not necessarily impart information...


I think it's completely unreasonable to guess that Haley told Celia about a spell named Cloister off panel.

This is just one problem I have with David's stretching. That and if she doesn't know what Cloister does, why would she mention it?


...and that Celia didn't explain what it was at that time.

I agree with the rest of your post too, but this sentence is fairly weak. If Celia has to "detect the presence of an abjuration" to find out spells are blocked, then, if Haley told her about some spell called Cloister that she doesn't know anything else about, Celia presumably doesn't have independent knowledge of what Cloister does either.

I thought of another alternative for the near future after reading other threads, and it's more likely than the one it's mutually exclusive to:
:haley:: I'm sorry, Niu. I know I'm valued here, and I know me and Belkar are by far the two highest-level people we have...
:niu:: No problem. Have a nice trip.
:haley:: Huh?
:niu:: Maybe with you and Belkar gone we can unite the other resistances and take on Xykon as one. (further explication along these lines)
:haley:: Wow. There's nothing like feeling like you're not wanted by the people who need you the most...

As for dealing with the Origin of PCs spoilers:
Celia, Haley, and Belkar are cornered or captured by the Thieves' Guild.
:celia:: Okay, what's this all about?
:haley:: Ah, heh heh. Well, you see... (launches into a brief expositive summary of her time with the Thieves' Guild, omitting some details)

[Swordlol]

The Giant must have spies in our "predict the future of OOTS" meetings.

[recluso]

About Celia's knowledge of Cloister.

Could a DM rule that Lawyers have a lot of knowledge about information gathering/spying magic and countermeasures?

In a OOTS world I assume some big cities have cloistered areas where lawyers could talk with their clients in true privacy.

[David Argall]

The simplest explanation is that Celia made her spellcraft roll - DC 20 + spell level to identify a spell that is in place and in effect. She can see the effect of the spell. No detect magic is needed for that.
If it were an epic spell (which I doubt) the DC would be 30 - identify a strange and unusual magical effect.

It seems unlikely Celia can make a DC30. Her racial HD is something like 3 and we don't know that she has any levels beyond that at all, nor that any of her skill points were in spellcraft. We give her several points on intelligence, but that's still requires a roll of maybe 22+ on a d20. [Any information she might have gotten from Dorukan should be an explanation of why we can just give her a roll of 20 rather than as a bonus that lets her beat 20.]

And the spell seems powerful even by epic standards. I look over the 9th level spells and fail to find anything that affects even a square mile. But this spell covers several square miles. We are talking orders of magnitude here.



perhaps the simplest explaination is that Dorukan told her what it was. Assuming that it was Dorukan's headband Xykon used to cast Cloister, it isn't that much of a stretch to assume Dorukan cast it on his dungeon, to prevent people getting a good layout of it through scrying. From there it wouldn't be hard to imagine Celia asking Dorukan when she came on board what was causing that tingling in her teeth.
If it was his headband, if he cast it on his dungeon, if Celia noticed it and if she asked about it, if... These may all be reasonable assumptions, but there are so many of them. And if any are wrong, the whole structure falls apart. It only happens 5% of the time, but eventually you do roll that 1.





Origin
The situation could be explained in the comic with a line or two. "Thought you could quit the Guild? No-one quits!"



Celia, Haley, and Belkar are cornered or captured by the Thieves' Guild.
:celia:: Okay, what's this all about?
: Ah, heh heh. Well, you see... (launches into a brief expositive summary of her time with the Thieves' Guild, omitting some details)


True, but the claim is that this is something that needs to be explained, which means there is a handicap to using it, not that it is ruled out.



I'd go with either an Arcane Sight type ability that lets Celia recognize spells,
An Arcane Sight type ability would run about 30,000 gp, compared to a 2000 Detect Magic, so we are pushing what is reasonable for the character.



I think it's completely unreasonable to guess that Haley told Celia about a spell named Cloister off panel.
Haley has clearly told Celia a number of things off panel just before 530 starts. Details are of course uncertain, but it would seem to be a summation of the last 100 strips or so. So there is plenty of room for her to mention that Wxkon cast Cloister if she knew that.
On the other end, Celia says Cloister in a way that assumes the listener knows what she is referring to. It is one thing for her to assume humans have the "normal" senses, but the names of spells is something she had to learn, and she would not be assuming Haley knew what she was talking about.
D&D generally runs knowledge checks as immediate, but this is game convenience. We know well that it can take some time for knowledge to filter out. So we can get something like...
Haley: ...Xykon cast something called Cloister..
Celia: Sounds familiar, but I can't quite place it.
Haley: Anyway, there are these zillion other facts to worry about...
And Celia remembers at some point during the night that Cloister blocks scrying, but there are more important things to think of.



...gotta admit I was dissapointed that Haley was wearing all her clothes under the blanket.
We are adventurers. We are used to being attacked in our beds. So you sleep in armor if you can [which may mean that the non-adventurers have to stand upwind, but...].



that's not what Xykon says in #484. Granted, what he does say is clearly intended to be funny and not necessarily impart information...
That is not the only chance he has to say "Cloiser" [which Tsukiko does hear]. And Tsukiko and Redcloak probably do have enough ranks of spellcraft to make DC30 if they have to figure it out.
While we don't see, Xykon then says "Ladies & Gentlemen...", which gives us the possibility he had a considerable audience.
So there are plenty of ways the name of the spell can become a general Gather Info check.



if she doesn't know what Cloister does, why would she mention it?
We have this big burst of light right after the spell is cast. She may not know what it did, and may well have a very incorrect idea, but it is something noticeable and she might easily want to know what it was.

[Eogan]

If it was his headband, if he cast it on his dungeon, if Celia noticed it and if she asked about it, if... These may all be reasonable assumptions, but there are so many of them. And if any are wrong, the whole structure falls apart. It only happens 5% of the time, but eventually you do roll that 1.
Irony.

Your theory uses even more assumptions and those are less grounded in events from the actual comic. Also, Celia noticing a Cloister spell is not an "if".

Further support for his theory:
The first time we meet Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), she is talking on her "cellphone" to her mother. Apparently, her mother likes to keep close tabs on her daughter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html), and Celia would expect her to contact her regularly. It's not unreasonable at all to assume that Celia would notice in short order if she was cut off from communicating with her mother, and that she would ask about it. Scenario:

Celia arrives for work at Dorukan's dungeon. She notices the "tingle" of the abjuration spell, but as he's an epic-level wizard guarding rare and unknowably-powerful artifacts, this isn't all that surprising. She thinks nothing of it.

After a few days, Celia wonders why her mother hasn't called to ask about the new job, but is simply relieved that she's not being consistently nagged, so thinks nothing of it. A week goes by, and Celia gets concerned. Her mother not nagging her for a week is simply unheard of! Worried that something has happened, Celia tries to contact her mother, but can't. She tries contacting other friends and family, but also can't. Now she realises that she's the one who's been cut off, so the only logical thing to do would be to ask Dorukan about it.

Dorukan explains the spell and what it does. Perhaps he's the one to give her the "cellphone", an artefact which bypasses his own spell. Perhaps he tells her that she can leave the castle on her off-hours if she wants to contact someone magically, letting her know the spell's area of effect. Perhaps she's just stuck without outside contact, in which case she probably learned about the spell from her employment contract: that's not the kind of thing you get sprung on you AFTER you're on the job and don't just walk out over.

Basically, the only big "if" for this theory is the "if Cloister was Dorukan's spell." If it was, then the odds of Celia knowing about it from Dorukan are really high. Someone as gabby as Celia with a mother as intrusive as Celia's doesn't spend months in a "blackout" zone doing a boring job without noticing.

Aside from the burst of magical flame when Cloister was cast (which seems to be AROUND, and not IN the city. Notice that none of the buildings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) are obscured at all by the magic effect. Someone in the city, especially someone in hiding, could have completely missed it.), there is nothing else in the comic that suggests that Haley had ANY knowledge of the Cloister spell at all.

[kabbor]

Further support for his theory:
The first time we meet Celia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), she is talking on her "cellphone" to her mother. Apparently, her mother likes to keep close tabs on her daughter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0529.html), and Celia would expect her to contact her regularly. It's not unreasonable at all to assume that Celia would notice in short order if she was cut off from communicating with her mother, and that she would ask about it.

Nice theory. I passed right over Celia's detection of the spell. I would say that it is highly probable that Cloister is Dorukan's spell (looks like his Hatband, is his colour, Xykon's off-hand 'Wheeties' remark.)

But, back to the cellphone: It looks like Xykon took down the Cloister spell when he took over, or, neglected to re-instate it after his conquering of Dorukan caused it to collapse. Therefore, there was no spell in effect when OotS was in the dungeon. That is further supported by V ,Durkon, and Celia too, not mentioning it at any stage.
Celia, however, would have been aware of its existence and effects, so was easily able to detect its presence. Knowledge of Xykon's presence would have been another bonus to her detect spell.

[ChimericPhase]

Ok, I tried to skim through the posts, and I didn't see anything...

...so am I the only person that noticed that Haley's unworn boot is floating in midair on the second page panel 9? It is in front of her leg, instead of behind her leg (where it would appear to be on the floor if it was).

Heads up Rich! At least it's just a layering error, easily fixed.

[Yerocha]

I'm hoping, above all else, that Celia will become more of a main character to replace the big, gaping void that the death of Miko Miyazaki has left in our hearts. *sniff*

[osyluth]

I'm hoping, above all else, that Celia will become more of a main character to replace the big, gaping void that the death of Miko Miyazaki has left in our hearts. *sniff*

Well, Miko's death never left much of a gap in my heart, but I definitely think Celia would be a good recurring character.

Giant, When will be seeing :vaarsuvius:'s "I prepared explosive runes this morning" again?

[Morgan Wick]

It's worth noting that the only thing supporting the idea that Dorukan had any spell remotely similar to Cloister is the fact that Xykon has a headband that looks like Dorukan's in 484. That's what I meant by "what Xykon says in 484"; he doesn't say he got it from Dorukan, and he has less reason to lie to Tsukiko, even sarcastically, than he would to, say, Haley.

About the only thing Argall's wacky "Haley told Celia about Cloister but didn't know what it did" theory has going for it is that identifying a spell by name is something above and beyond identifying its effects, according to the rules. (His "Xykon told anyone who would listen" idea has no support from the actual comic outside Tsukiko's presence in #484, and if he's right about having an audience - and I read "Ladies and gentlemen" as Xykon talking to himself, not even to Tsukiko anymore - then his exact words - "Azure City is now off the grid" - should give anyone listening at least a hint of the effects.) Not only does that ignore the fact that Rich has shown a willingness to ignore the rules if it doesn't fit the story, it ignores the possibility Celia would have known about Cloister independently (and that wouldn't be limited to the almost-as-tenuous "it's Dorukan's spell" idea). I wouldn't even put it past Rich to give Celia more information than she really should for the sole reason of increasing the impact for the readers.

It's worth remembering that OOTS isn't really a comic for D&D geeks anymore, especially since getting a real story attatched to it. There's less pressure on Rich to hew as close to D&D rules as there used to be (and as it can sometimes seem), and a significant portion of his audience is people like me with no background in D&D, only a vague understanding of how things "should" work.

[FujinAkari]

About the only thing Argall's wacky "Haley told Celia about Cloister but didn't know what it did" theory has going for it is that identifying a spell by name is something above and beyond identifying its effects, according to the rules.

Spellcraft DC 20 + Spell Level: "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry."

This doesn't say "recognize its effects," it says "Identify a spell."

[the_tick_rules]

Wow, Celia's a bit upity in the morning. Remember that one roy.

[Senko]

Read as much of this thread as I could before needing to post in order to go out but I just wanted to say four things.....

1) I agree Haley really looks cute when she's sleeping.
2) I really admire Haley's restraint if I was in her position and another girl woke me up early including in her first comments the phrase "I had to pin the waist" and multiple comments on how roomy my clothes are around her waist I doubt I'd be able to limit myself to "you are not succeeding at making me less Grumpy."
3) I really like the fact these two will be travelling together as I enjoy blonde/redhaired female couples (Including purely friendly/semi-friendly ones) so this is good for me.:smallbiggrin:
4) I think Elan will be the one to see Roy.

[factotum]

It's worth noting that the only thing supporting the idea that Dorukan had any spell remotely similar to Cloister is the fact that Xykon has a headband that looks like Dorukan's in 484.

There is another supporting piece of evidence, circumstantial though it may be: the light show that accompanied the casting of the spell was bright yellow, which we know is Dorukan's colour. All Xykon's spellcasting is black--even the Meteor Swarm spell he cast in 442 was accompanied by a black flare from his hand, so it isn't just negative energy spells that manifest that way for him.

[Antina]

Wasn´t Celia supposed to attend class first thing in the morning?

Don´t all teachers at "fairy tales academiy" get an summoning-beacon for every lazy student? :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[Antina]

And it´s nice to see the salesman practicing some psychology on his customers - standing on something to be able to "look down" on them!

Just GREAT! :-)

[Morgan Wick]

Spellcraft DC 20 + Spell Level: "Identify a spell that’s already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry."

This doesn't say "recognize its effects," it says "Identify a spell."

David has been claiming Celia is using Detect Magic, not Spellcraft.

[FujinAkari]

David claims a lot of things :P

We never see Celia cast -anything- and Spellcraft fits what actually happened verbatim, therefore logical people tend to conclude that Spellcraft is responsible.

[Yendor]

David has been claiming Celia is using Detect Magic, not Spellcraft.
Funny how Haley apparently never bothered to ask anyone else to cast Detect Magic, yet thought the spell important enough to mention to Celia without telling her she didn't know what it was.

[Qov]

I believe you are all overthinking it.

Haley knew nothing of the spell, not its presence, not its name, not its effect. o To Celia the spell was so bleeding obvious that it never occurred to her that Haley might not know exactly what was going on. She's just said the equivalent of "Let's go inside. we can get lunch there and we'll be out of all this rain." She's about to discover that Haley not only didn't know that it was raining but is incapable of detecting that she is getting wet.

Celia knows the exact name of the spell because it is the clearest, funniest way to make the above point. That is all.

And damnit, yesterday's xkcd SO applies to me right now. I am ashamed.

[Weiser_Cain]

I believe you are all overthinking it.

Haley knew nothing of the spell, not its presence, not its name, not its effect. o To Celia the spell was so bleeding obvious that it never occurred to her that Haley might not know exactly what was going on. She's just said the equivalent of "Let's go inside. we can get lunch there and we'll be out of all this rain." She's about to discover that Haley not only didn't know that it was raining but is incapable of detecting that she is getting wet.

Celia knows the exact name of the spell because it is the clearest, funniest way to make the above point. That is all.

And damnit, yesterday's xkcd SO applies to me right now. I am ashamed.

What's Xkcd?

[Kish]

David claims a lot of things :P

We never see Celia cast -anything- and Spellcraft fits what actually happened verbatim

Except for being something humans have access to, and therefore not fitting at all with the ongoing joke about Celia assuming every human can do what she takes for granted. "What kind of crappy senses are you using?" That's something innate to Celia that humans don't have.

[FujinAkari]

Except for being something humans have access to, and therefore not fitting at all with the ongoing joke about Celia assuming every human can do what she takes for granted. "What kind of crappy senses are you using?" That's something innate to Celia that humans don't have.

I believe that was in reference to Celia's second sense in regards to magic. Human's CAN'T detect an ongoing spell without some discernable sign, but Sylphs apparently can.

According to the MM, Sylphs do not have an everpresent Detect Magic effect, and so it wouldn't make sense (with the joke) for her to assume Haley had access to such an effect if David were correct and she had some magical item to do it. Instead, I think it is just a nod to a Sylph's inherent +7 bonus to Spellcraft rolls.

[SPoD]

It's worth noting that the only thing supporting the idea that Dorukan had any spell remotely similar to Cloister is the fact that Xykon has a headband that looks like Dorukan's in 484.

Incorrect. There is a significant fact from Start of Darkness that lends credence to the theory:

Xykon and Redcloak, who have the capacity to scry, teleport, and cast Sending, instead camp outside Dorukan's castle for ONE YEAR, waiting for him to come out and fight them. When Xykon wants to make a threat to Dorukan, he resorts to yelling loudly in the direction of the castle. Obviously, something was keeping them from just popping in and tearing up the place.

So yes, there is circumstantial evidence that Dorukan was capable of keeping a powerful lich sorcerer and his high priest cohort from entering his castle until they lured him out and defeated him. And it seems silly for Rich to invent TWO magical effects that prevent teleportation and scrying, so we can easily assume that Dorukan did have Cloister in effect for his castle.


According to the MM, Sylphs do not have an everpresent Detect Magic effect, and so it wouldn't make sense (with the joke) for her to assume Haley had access to such an effect if David were correct and she had some magical item to do it. Instead, I think it is just a nod to a Sylph's inherent +7 bonus to Spellcraft rolls.

Sylphs are also not Medium-size and can't shoot lightning. We should all just accept that we don't know what powers Celia has until Rich tells us.

[FujinAkari]

Sylphs are also not Medium-size and can't shoot lightning. We should all just accept that we don't know what powers Celia has until Rich tells us.

Sylphs were medium sizes when Celia was born / created / whatever Sylphs do, and they can cast spells as a sorcerer whose class levels is equivalent to their hit dice plus 4. While the affinity for lightning seems nothing more than a continuance of the fluff regarding denizens of the Elemental Plane of Air (which Celia is) it is decidedly untrue that Sylphs cannot shoot lightning, as every single one of them is -at least- able to use lightning orb

[SPoD]

Sylphs were medium sizes when Celia was born / created / whatever Sylphs do, and they can cast spells as a sorcerer whose class levels is equivalent to their hit dice plus 4. While the affinity for lightning seems nothing more than a continuance of the fluff regarding denizens of the Elemental Plane of Air (which Celia is) it is decidedly untrue that Sylphs cannot shoot lightning, as every single one of them is -at least- able to use lightning orb

Wait, wait, wait. Are you actually arguing that given the possibilities of:

A.) Rich examined the Monster Manual entry for Sylph, but found that it was Small-sized, so he combed through prior edition rulebooks and found that Sylphs used to be Medium in a previous edition. He then realized that given Celia's age, she would be old enough to have been "born" in a prior edition, and thus could extrapolate her size from that--despite the fact that he gave her certain powers associated with the CURRENT edition of the Sylph, and one or two that have not been documented in any version,

or

B.) Rich dubbed her a "sylph" back when she was a bit character, and now is ignoring the rules in favor of giving her whatever abilities are useful to her role in the story,

you find Option A more in keeping with what we know about Rich and this comic?

Before you answer, may I point you to Redcloak, our fine Medium-sized goblin friend, who as yet has no explanation for his height other than, "Rich doesn't care what the Monster Manual says"?

[FujinAkari]

Yes, I consider it quite likely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) that Rich considered past editions of certain monsters when populating the Dungeon of Durokan.

As for Redcloak, Rich's official word is that Redcloak is medium sized because the comic's scale makes it difficult to draw Small Sized creatures at their actual height, and because he felt a Redcloak that was consistently smaller that the party would encourage a foppish attitude not appropriate for the character.

Basically, yes Rich can change the rules, but that isn't the same as saying that there are no rules. This game is based on D&D and D&D rules apply to it unless disproved by the comic. Simply saying "We don't know anything until Rich tells us!" is to nullify any ability for rational thought and conclusion.

While what we conclude can be overwrit by Authorial Fiat, that doesn't make the process of concluding it a waste of time :)

Edit: Also, what powers has he given her that are not in the past/current version of Sylph? She has seemed entirely consistent with both. Other than, perhaps, referring to herself as a Paraelemental, which is clearly a nod at 3.5 (although it should be noted, she makes no attempt to correct Roy calling her a Fey back in the Dungeon... which could be constrewed as evidence supporting the idea she was still going by her 3.0 classification since she hadn't found out about the update yet. I happen to dislike that theory, since the changes just -happened- to the OOTSers, but its food for thought)

[Qov]

What's xkcd?
If there were a competition for best stick figure webcomic, xkcd (http://xkcd.com/386/) would offer OotS some serious competition. OotS is superior for the richness of artwork and complexity of storylines, while xkcd describes the human condition, or at least the geek-human condition with an accuracy that makes thousands of people who thought they were alone feel understood.

[infiniteviking]

Delurking again to cheer at the Celia-Haley banter. :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

Yes, I consider it quite likely (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0055.html) that Rich considered past editions of certain monsters when populating the Dungeon of Durokan.

As for Redcloak, Rich's official word is that Redcloak is medium sized because the comic's scale makes it difficult to draw Small Sized creatures at their actual height, and because he felt a Redcloak that was consistently smaller that the party would encourage a foppish attitude not appropriate for the character.

And you don't find it therefore more likely that the reason Celia is Medium-sized because the comic's scale makes it difficult to draw Small-sized creatures at their actual height, and because he felt a Celia that was consistently smaller that the party would discourage the possibility for romantic interest with Roy, rather than some weird idea of her being born in another edition?

Especially given that if she were an old-edition sylph who hadn't been updated to the new size, she would have been locked up with those flumphs instead of guarding them?


Edit: Also, what powers has he given her that are not in the past/current version of Sylph?

The ability to sense magical fields with her teeth, for starters. Yes, I know you claim that it's just a Spellcraft check. I think you're wrong.

I also don't see a lightning orb when Celia shoots lightning, I just see...well, lightning. Rich drew an Electric Orb just a few strips ago, and it looked different. Especially note the panel where she pops out just a tiny little zap to show how the amulet breaks...how does she get just a little zap like that with an orb spell?

EDIT: Plus, she zaps both Nale and Thog with her lightning at the same time, and lightning orb only targets one person.

[Doug Lampert]

And damnit, yesterday's xkcd SO applies to me right now. I am ashamed.

It applies to many almost all the time. But sadly, someone will ALWAYS be wrong on the internet. This was likely true even prior to the EXISTENCE of the internet and will still be true long after the net is gone simply because some people are so wrong that it creates a temporal spillover of error.

Note: Remember to always cursor over the comic on xkcd (http://xkcd.com/386/), it's often the best part.

[Syraider]

the comics is cool i like this comic :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool:

[FujinAkari]

And you don't find it therefore more likely that the reason Celia is Medium-sized because the comic's scale makes it difficult to draw Small-sized creatures at their actual height, and because he felt a Celia that was consistently smaller that the party would discourage the possibility for romantic interest with Roy, rather than some weird idea of her being born in another edition?

No, I'm quite sure that was also a factor. Probably MORE of a factor than the 3.0 Sylph. You seem to be content with "Rich did it!" as an explaination, and I'm not. Saying she was originally a 3rd Edition Sylph is MUCH MORE rational than simply waving your hands at the problem and saying Rich's name.


Especially given that if she were an old-edition sylph who hadn't been updated to the new size, she would have been locked up with those flumphs instead of guarding them?

No, read the comic. The locked up monsters were monsters that were never updated to 3rd Edition. A 3.0 Sylph very obviously does not qualify.


The ability to sense magical fields with her teeth, for starters. Yes, I know you claim that it's just a Spellcraft check. I think you're wrong.

Do you have any evidence of this? Opinions are a dime a dozen.


I also don't see a lightning orb when Celia shoots lightning, I just see...well, lightning. Rich drew an Electric Orb just a few strips ago, and it looked different. Especially note the panel where she pops out just a tiny little zap to show how the amulet breaks...how does she get just a little zap like that with an orb spell?

Ok fine, then its shocking grasp. The spell isn't hardly the point, and I think you know that.

EDIT: Plus, she zaps both Nale and Thog with her lightning at the same time, and lightning orb only targets one person.[/QUOTE]

Then it was Lightning Bolt or some OTHER spell. Quit arguing semantics.

[David Argall]

Your theory uses even more assumptions and those are less grounded in events from the actual comic.
You are invited to make an actual comparison instead of just a charge.


Also, Celia noticing a Cloister spell is not an "if".
It is an "if" here. Celia notices the spell in Azure City. But we are discussing the possible spell in Dorukan's digs. It is an "If" if she noticed that spell.


Further support for his theory:
It's not unreasonable at all to assume that Celia would notice in short order if she was cut off from communicating with her mother, and that she would ask about it.
Of course, it is also reasonable to think that she noticed and decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth [and was later saddened when the spell broke down and her mother was once again able to bug her.] So we still have an "if" here.


Someone as gabby as Celia with a mother as intrusive as Celia's doesn't spend months in a "blackout" zone doing a boring job without noticing.
Of course Dorukan may have simply set up the system in the first place to allow certain incoming or outgoing calls and Celia may have never known the spell would interfere with scrying.

Again we have the same basic point. We are speculating and doing so on a long chain of events. If we are wrong on even one of them, and we can be about any, the whole thing becomes worthless.

Total different issue.
Now that you bring up #53, notice that it is V who is the first to come forward when the pure of heart is demanded. So she is of good alignment as of that point and those who want to insist he is not good have some more problems with their case.


Aside from the burst of magical flame when Cloister was cast (which seems to be AROUND, and not IN the city. Notice that [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html]none of the buildings (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html) are obscured at all by the magic effect.
You are demanding too much of stick figure art. The picture as given is entirely consistent with in the city as well as around.


there is nothing else in the comic that suggests that Haley had ANY knowledge of the Cloister spell at all.
Suggests? At all? Well of course there is. The simple fact that she is in the same city and is a rogue with Gather Info means she had a chance to learn of the spell.



David has been claiming Celia is using Detect Magic, not Spellcraft.
I have been doing neither. I have been using Detect Magic as a measure of how powerful her ability is, and thus how reasonable it is that she have various other abilities.
However, on the point of spellcraft, we have no evidence that Celia has any ranks. The base sylph in MM2 has zero ranks and her job with Duroken and her legal training do not seem to have much call for it. Of course we do know Celia is not precisely the book monster, but giving her enough ranks to make a DC30 spellcraft check does take some work.



Funny how Haley apparently never bothered to ask anyone else to cast Detect Magic, yet thought the spell important enough to mention to Celia without telling her she didn't know what it was.
She may have, but Detect Magic will not tell her that the spell is blocking communication, the point of importance.



I think it is just a nod to a Sylph's inherent +7 bonus to Spellcraft rolls.
What +7 bonus? The base creature in MM2 casts spells as a 7th level sorcerer, but has no ranks in spellcraft and the only obvious bonus is +2 for INT.



SOD
Xykon and Redcloak, who have the capacity to scry, teleport, and cast Sending, instead camp outside Dorukan's castle for ONE YEAR, waiting for him to come out and fight them. When Xykon wants to make a threat to Dorukan, he resorts to yelling loudly in the direction of the castle. Obviously, something was keeping them from just popping in and tearing up the place.


SOD also has Xykon's explanation for why he didn't charge in, that the place was probably just lousy with traps and he did not intend to take on an epic wizard on his home turf. Much better to lure him out and as an undead, he can wait. Dorukan may well have had defenses against teleport and/or scrying, but Xykon doesn't mention them as serious factors.

[AyuVince]

I know why Roy loves Celia. :smallbiggrin: Someone needed to kick the OotS back into shape, and the fact that an NPC does it makes it even more awesome.

I can't wait to see Celia in combat. Having a sorcerer spell level equal to your hit dice is pretty awesome. With Vaarsuvius missing and Mr Court Wizard Guy still dead, Haley could use some arcane magic. Explosive Runes, pew pew.

Strip 531 is now officially full of win! /cheer

[El_Jefe]

I really like the girls talking together and Roy standing by watching...

And Celia is definetly a character I like, I think she is so funny...

I am still laughing about the "not even lighting?" comment couple comics back...

:thog: Not in comic anymore. Me sad.

[FujinAkari]

What +7 bonus? The base creature in MM2 casts spells as a 7th level sorcerer, but has no ranks in spellcraft and the only obvious bonus is +2 for INT.

You appear to be looking at the 3.5 Sylph, not the 3.0 Sylph. Celia seems to be based on the 3.0 variety (or, possibly, some strange combination of the two)

Reference: http://img58.exs.cx/img58/3180/naginata7nh.jpg

[Morgan Wick]

Incorrect. There is a significant fact from Start of Darkness that lends credence to the theory:

Xykon and Redcloak, who have the capacity to scry, teleport, and cast Sending, instead camp outside Dorukan's castle for ONE YEAR, waiting for him to come out and fight them. When Xykon wants to make a threat to Dorukan, he resorts to yelling loudly in the direction of the castle. Obviously, something was keeping them from just popping in and tearing up the place.

So yes, there is circumstantial evidence that Dorukan was capable of keeping a powerful lich sorcerer and his high priest cohort from entering his castle until they lured him out and defeated him. And it seems silly for Rich to invent TWO magical effects that prevent teleportation and scrying, so we can easily assume that Dorukan did have Cloister in effect for his castle.


You've almost convinced me of this theory, actually (which probably means Rich will Joss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Jossed) it in short order). But if true, Celia knowing the name of the spell is probably the least of its impact on the story.


She may have, but Detect Magic will not tell her that the spell is blocking communication, the point of importance.
Wait, WHAT? Correct me if I'm misinterpreting, but did you say that Detect Magic wouldn't even give Celia the information we KNOW she's collected on her own? Are you conceding that Celia has some level of power above and beyond Detect Magic? If so, how much of a stretch is it, really, that she would learn the name of the spell as well?


SOD also has Xykon's explanation for why he didn't charge in, that the place was probably just lousy with traps and he did not intend to take on an epic wizard on his home turf. Much better to lure him out and as an undead, he can wait. Dorukan may well have had defenses against teleport and/or scrying, but Xykon doesn't mention them as serious factors. But wouldn't Xykon have been able to scry for any traps? Granted, that doesn't take care of the "epic wizard on home turf" problem... but remember, Redcloak isn't undead.

[David Argall]

did you say that Detect Magic wouldn't even give Celia the information we KNOW she's collected on her own? Are you conceding that Celia has some level of power above and beyond Detect Magic? If so, how much of a stretch is it, really, that she would learn the name of the spell as well?

Considerable. Detect magic is 1st level, and what she has shown is not necessarily above that level, particularly if we limit her to the one school of magic. That she can't learn the name of an epic level spell is entirely consistent with that.
We might note here there is a difference between game play and real world here. The DM in the game often tells the player the spell name so the player can look it up and the DM thus does not have to bother. But in a real world, the flow of knowledge goes the other way. You learn this is a spell of X school...of this power...that does Y....and you would eventually sort out the name of the spell from such clues. [Eventually of course being very fast if you have seen a few dozen fireballs and you see the other mage holding some bat guano and sulfer.]
Celia is working from a real world view and so she would know what the spell does long before she would know its name.



But wouldn't Xykon have been able to scry for any traps? Granted, that doesn't take care of the "epic wizard on home turf" problem... but remember, Redcloak isn't undead.
Of course, but the wizard can also put them under other anti-scry protections, and Xykon is probably not oversupplied with scrying spells. [He definitely has none at 9th, and given his blastem nature, it is extremely doubtful he has any epic either.] The flexibility of wizards would come in here and Xykon is the underdog in a battle of hide and seek.