Help me with noncheesy polymorph?

[Riffington]

So I'm running a campaign where one of my players (who has many excellent qualities and is in general a good player) has the small flaw "likes to have the most powerful character". He is playing a sorcerer, and wants to heavily use the spells Alter Self and Polymorph. [at present he is only high enough level for Alter Self].

I want to let him have fun with it, but I also don't want him to break my game. I'm concerned that allowing a 2nd level spell to offer Troglodyte Armor (+6 natural armor; stacks with Armor and/or Shield) might make me cry. I am also concerned that he'll find Polymorph forms that will make Baby Jesus cry.

I am considering the following limitations. Does it keep the spells cool enough to take? Am I nerfing them excessively? Or will Baby Jesus still cry?

*Alter Self can offer a max Natural Armor bonus of Barkskin. Also, no flying.
(thus, it's a much more powerful and versatile spell than Barkskin, which is a fine 2nd level spell.)

*Polymorph (used on another person) can add a max Natural Armor Bonus of Barkskin. It may add at most 4 to each physical attribute. It can give flight/etc.

*Polymorph (used on self) raises the limits on AC and Attribute bonuses to [Caster Level].

Is this reasonable?

[Dan_Hemmens]

So I'm running a campaign where one of my players (who has many excellent qualities and is in general a good player) has the small flaw "likes to have the most powerful character". He is playing a sorcerer, and wants to heavily use the spells Alter Self and Polymorph. [at present he is only high enough level for Alter Self].

I want to let him have fun with it, but I also don't want him to break my game. I'm concerned that allowing a 2nd level spell to offer Troglodyte Armor (+6 natural armor; stacks with Armor and/or Shield) might make me cry. I am also concerned that he'll find Polymorph forms that will make Baby Jesus cry.

I am considering the following limitations. Does it keep the spells cool enough to take? Am I nerfing them excessively? Or will Baby Jesus still cry?

*Alter Self can offer a max Natural Armor bonus of Barkskin. Also, no flying.
(thus, it's a much more powerful and versatile spell than Barkskin, which is a fine 2nd level spell.)

*Polymorph (used on another person) can add a max Natural Armor Bonus of Barkskin. It may add at most 4 to each physical attribute. It can give flight/etc.

*Polymorph (used on self) raises the limits on AC and Attribute bonuses to [Caster Level].

Is this reasonable?

Polymorph can be reigned in with strict application of the "Familiarity" rules. Has this guy ever *seen* a troglodyte? Then how can he turn into one?

Just because it's in the MM doesn't mean he's allowed to turn into it.

Alternatively, produce a short list of approved shapes.

[Riffington]

The "familiarity" suggestion makes sense, but it won't work in my case. If I want to put in lizardmen into an adventure, I don't want to have to worry about whether that would break my sorcerer.

I can also go with the "approved list", but it would require a lot of negotiation. Plus once he gets polymorph, he needs better forms for himself than for the Fighter/Paladin (who has full BAB, etc)

So I'm hoping that my merely-numerical fix would help? Or am I miscalculating/missing something broken/etc?

[Dan_Hemmens]

The "familiarity" suggestion makes sense, but it won't work in my case. If I want to put in lizardmen into an adventure, I don't want to have to worry about whether that would break my sorcerer.

I can also go with the "approved list", but it would require a lot of negotiation. Plus once he gets polymorph, he needs better forms for himself than for the Fighter/Paladin (who has full BAB, etc)

So I'm hoping that my merely-numerical fix would help? Or am I miscalculating/missing something broken/etc?

I'm not experienced enough with D&D to judge the mechanical fix, I'm just generally leery of numerical fixes in general - one usually forgets something fundamental.

My personal opinion is that Polymorph should be all about style, not about stat boosts: I fled him in the shape of a deer, and still he pursued me. I can see that your player is unlikely to go for that.

[Chronos]

A good start for Alter Self would be to use the 3.0 version, which explicitly did not grant natural armor or extra attacks at all (though it still granted functional wings and gills). Why they thought it was a good idea to change that, I have no clue.

[Artanis]

I can also go with the "approved list", but it would require a lot of negotiation. Plus once he gets polymorph, he needs better forms for himself than for the Fighter/Paladin (who has full BAB, etc)
If by "negotiation" you mean "telling him that using your list is the only way to keep from having the spells banned altogether", then sure, go ahead and negotiate :smallamused:



Edit: Seriously though, if he has a problem with an "approved list", tell him that you aren't sure you can keep things remotely balanced any other way. If he really is a "generally good player" as you say he is, he'll accept that. If he does NOT accept that, well...part of a DM's job is to keep a jackass player from cheesing the game to the point that it ruins everybody else's fun, right?

[Idea Man]

The "familiarity" suggestion makes sense, but it won't work in my case. If I want to put in lizardmen into an adventure, I don't want to have to worry about whether that would break my sorcerer.

I wouldn't worry about introducing new humanoids. If you add lizardmen, in this example, he'll get a natural claw/claw/bite that he's not trained in, a bit of natural armor, and a very good ability to hold his breath while swimming. I can't think of a truly overpowered humanoid form, and the further up in levels he goes, the less useful they'll be.

Polymorph...that's a whole other can of worms. An approved list might be best. You could adopt a "form-training" period when learning new and unusual shapes. Sure, giants are a lot like us, but they are a LOT bigger (akward), and anything with more/less limbs would take more work.

I would say make a list, and feel free to update it. Much less work.

[Cruiser1]

The easiest way to balance spells like Alter Self and Polymorph is limit the forms available to those from the Summon Monster lists. Summon Monster X can't summon any creature you want, but only those from a small approved list, and similarly Alter Self and Polymorph should work the same way. I don't think you need to change the mechanics of those spells at all, beyond the set of forms you can change to.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I'd play it smart and create various shapes, like the PHBII's Trollshape and dragonshape.

[Iku Rex]

I trust you've seen the Giant's attempt at balancing polymorph?

Part 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html)
Part 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/PbpHATjPkec7E82kEmo.html)

Another option is to ban alter self and polymorph, but allow the various one-shape polymorph spells WotC have published recently. They tend to be crap, so the player won't be happy.

If I were to re-balance polymorph I think I'd make it more generic - maybe point-based. Each feature - size, type, Str, natural armor, special attack etc. would cost a point (or several). Higher caster level = more points. I'd also require each form to be learned separately (polymorph into troll, not just polymorph), and add a piece of the creature as a material component. That way each form's statistics can be prepared in advance and you won't have the player slowing down the game flipping through the MM in mid-combat to find the best form.

[John Campbell]

The solution my DM used was to restrict polymorph targets to forms that the caster had actually seen. That eliminated the "search through every book out there looking for the most ludicrously broken monster of any given HD ever published" problem, and gave the DM complete control over what forms I could polymorph into... and that without even adding much worry to the planning stage. He wasn't about to throw stuff that was unbalancingly more powerful than we were at us anyway, because it would've killed us. The general upward trend of character power meant that, as a rule, the things we'd encountered before were weaker than whatever we were presently fighting. And my polyed versions were generally weaker still, because most of the good special abilities aren't Ex attacks.

The upshot of it was that I never polymorphed myself. There was nothing that I could turn myself into that was more dangerous than my natural form. But the spell wasn't totally useless... I used it on my familiar fairly often, to turn him into things that were more useful than a weasel (wyvern and remorhaz were a couple of my favorites).

[Chronos]

He wasn't about to throw stuff that was unbalancingly more powerful than we were at us anyway, because it would've killed us.It's not quite that simple, for two reasons. First, some abilities can be balanced for a monster, but become unbalanced for a player. Second, you can get synergies between a monster's abilities and the player's abilities.

As a couple of examples: First, the hydra. It's a dumb brute, and it doesn't fly or have any long-range attacks, so it's not too overwhelmingly powerful for a party unless it catches them by surprise. But now Polymorph a rogue into a hydra, and cast Greater Invisibility, and you've got someone delivering a dozen sneak attacks a round, and still moving at full speed.

Second, the choker. It gets to take an extra standard action each round. This isn't too bad, since all the choker can use that extra action for is to attack some more. But for a wizard polymorphed into a choker, that extra standard action means an extra spell cast each round, which is huge.

[Iku Rex]

But for a wizard polymorphed into a choker, that extra standard action means an extra spell cast each round, which is huge.The choker's quickness is a (Su) ability. You only get that with shapechange.

[Crow]

For Shapechange and others, some (sane) DM's may require that you have enough ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill (Arcana for dragons, Nature for animals, etc...) to "recall details" of a creature you want to change into. The target is 10+(the creature's CR) I think.

The SRD knowledge skill section covers which skills cover what groups.

[sikyon]

The solution my DM used was to restrict polymorph targets to forms that the caster had actually seen. That eliminated the "search through every book out there looking for the most ludicrously broken monster of any given HD ever published" problem, and gave the DM complete control over what forms I could polymorph into... and that without even adding much worry to the planning stage. He wasn't about to throw stuff that was unbalancingly more powerful than we were at us anyway, because it would've killed us. The general upward trend of character power meant that, as a rule, the things we'd encountered before were weaker than whatever we were presently fighting. And my polyed versions were generally weaker still, because most of the good special abilities aren't Ex attacks.


You could have used scrying to see the creature, just saying.

Anyhow generally Knowledge(polymorph) = DC HDx2 or something like that might work, to see if you know the creature and can polymorph into it.

Also, backstories can help players get around it here.

Just saying.

[Mal666]

polymorph ispretty much already ballanced... as long as you exclude MM2, fiend folio and certain campain setting monsters.

remember it only grants the Strength, Dexterity and Con of the form and any Exterordinary special attacks... and i guess movements and natural armour. other ex abilities (fast healing/regen) arnt applied according to the polymorph spell. neither are supernatural abilities (the chokers extra action is a (Su) btw and turning into a mindflayer gives you little more than the ability to eat brains.)
also the caster keeps their own bab i believe? giants and trolls arnt quite so amazing without a +1/hd progression on their attack, so these forms give you a butt load of hitpoints from the bonus con and nothing else...

Lesser/greater and basic Fiendform on the other hand and other specialist polymorphs... these give the caster everything... and apply it as a template i think... (so if the caster has a good dex, or con, then it powers up to level 9,000,000,000) but ofc is less flexable.

basicly the spell is no more hideous than the druids wild shape ability (and enhancement feats that let you turn into differing creatures) especially since a druid can utilise natural spell whilst morphed.

[Chronicled]

I like the new polymorph spells printed in the PH2 and SC. Trollshape, Displacer Form, etc. Really, they're fine as 4th level spells, and quite fun to use.

If nothing else, remind your player that he is playing a caster. He doesn't need to abuse polymorph spells to be the most powerful character in the group. I assume you'll shut down other abusive spells (Gate, for instance), so why not these?

[Talic]

Familiarity rules can be ruled by Knowledge skills. In order to know something about a specific monster, you must make a DC 10+ HD of the monster. For every 5 you beat the check by, you learn something else useful. Rule that you need to know 2-3 useful things about a critter to change into it, by knowledge rules, and don't allow taking 10. This makes the DC 15 or 20+ HD of the monster. So a 2 HD lizardman would be knowledge DC 17 or 22 to be familiar enough to change into.

At least, that's how I do it. Also, any creature with CR 1/2 the character level or less is allowable at DC 10 + HD. So, a level 6 caster could gain forms with trained skills for each type of creature CR 3 or less at DC 10+ HD, or any creature CR 4 or more at 15+HD.

This also encourages casters to invest in Knowledge nature, dungeoneering, arcana, religion, etc.