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Serenity
2008-02-19, 01:30 PM
This weekend, I will be attending my college's annual gaming con, where I plan to take part in 'OGRE vs. Squirrel', in which the various players will do their best to create the most broken character they can and pit them against each other. Any D&D book made by Wizards is fair game, though my selection is limited to 3.5 Core, Expanded and Complete Psionics, Complete Adventurer, ToB, ECS, and MMII, plus the SRD. My plan is to make a Gestalt Warblade//Psion. The game's fully 20th level, and any help with optimization would be much appreciated!

My current thinking is a LG Githzerai Egoist//Warblade. Ability scores at 1st level, after racial ability adjustments are STR 16 DEX 20 CON 13 INT 15 WIS 13 CHA 12. Gold piece limit for items is 200,000, and no artifacts are allowed.

Swooper
2008-02-19, 07:02 PM
1. Max Concentration, possibly getting an item to boost it.
2. Grab some juicy Diamond Mind maneuvres.
3. Start the battle by getting psionic focus (preferably, you should have the Psionic Meditation feat to speed this up to a move action).
4. Proceed to smack stuff so hard with your Greater Insightful Strike, using your psi-focus to take 15 on the Concentration roll.
5. ???
6. Profit!

Serenity
2008-02-19, 07:22 PM
Update: I've just been informed that we will be using 32 point buy, making the ability scores I posted earlier not quite possible. Here's my current revised abilities. If you have any suggestion for how to rearrange the points, I'll be glad to hear them.

STR 15 DEX 17 CON 14 INT 15 WIS 12 CHA 8

My first thought is that I might drop Wisdom to 10 to boost my STR up a notch. I've got 4 +1 boosts for 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th level (Gith LA keeps me from going to 20) still to apply. I'm guessing I should pump those into INT, along with grabbing a bunch of INT boosting items?

Triaxx
2008-02-19, 07:29 PM
Personally I'd go with a Monk//Barbarian, but that's just me.

Nebo_
2008-02-19, 07:36 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3944749&postcount=37

Win, swap Wrath domain for Animal or Scalykind or something else with Shapechange(so you can persist it) if you really want the polymorph abuse to let you win.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-19, 07:43 PM
This sounds like a contest that Pun-Pun (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) would automatically win, at least until he was banned, which would happen the second someone noticed you're using Pun-Pun. :smalltongue:

Be sure to wear Heavy Fortification(+5) armor and a Third Eye: Conceal(200k, from MIC it's Perma-Mind Blank) because that kills a lot of your opponents options to really harm you.

Serenity
2008-02-19, 07:58 PM
200,000 is my GP limit for all equipment--the guy DMing says that 760,000, the listed WBL for 20th level characters, is for 20th level parties. Doesn't make sense to me, but not something I'm in a good position to argue.

Chronos
2008-02-19, 08:20 PM
3. Start the battle by getting psionic focus (preferably, you should have the Psionic Meditation feat to speed this up to a move action).Preferably, you'd start the battle with psionic focus already up. It lasts until you expend it or go unconscious, and you can regain it as often as you want, so why would any character ever not have it at the start of a battle? Some way to regain it quickly would be good if you plan to use it multiple times in a fight, though.

Douglas
2008-02-19, 09:03 PM
200,000 is my GP limit for all equipment--the guy DMing says that 760,000, the listed WBL for 20th level characters, is for 20th level parties. Doesn't make sense to me, but not something I'm in a good position to argue.
Er, what? The table quite clearly says Character Wealth by Level, not party wealth.

Also, point him to the table on page 54, which lists expected treasure gain per level and explicitly has columns for both the entire party and for each individual character. Then point out that the gain for level 20 alone, completely ignoring the entire rest of the character's career, is 180000 for a single character. Also note that the WBL table entries happen to exactly equal the sum of the expected gain column in this table for all levels 1 through the level you're looking up.

expirement10K14
2008-02-19, 09:10 PM
Go Monk10/Barbarian10//Sorcerer10/PRC's10 and take Vow of Poverty and Ascetic Mage. You Win.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-19, 09:16 PM
GM screwing you out of gold? Fine.

PsiWar6/Slayer10/Pyrokeneticist4//Warblade20.

Abuse Spiked Chain, which is a two handed weapon. Abuse the hell out of Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Karmic Strike when combined with Psionic Lion's Pounce and +100 damage maneuver. Particularly do this while augmenting Expansion for two size category increases for even more damage output. Just remember, your reach when expanded is like 20', so you don't actually need to get into melee with someone to lay the smack down, forcing him to come to you, or failing that, charging another 10 feet forward and repeating the previous round worth of attacks for even more damage output.

Slayer gives you immunity to mind-affecting. If you go Warforged, you can get immune to crits, and since you're no longer a humanoid, immune to a bunch of crap just by virtue of not being humanoid.

For Ultra-Cheeze:

You need: Warmind 5, a bag of helpless puppies, Great Cleave, a weapon of reach (I'd suggest a spiked chain again), and a sadistic personality.

In short: Warmind5 lets you hit a different opponent within reach if you hit an opponent. So, smack a puppy, also smack opponent. Oh wait, you killed a puppy, Great Cleave, kill another puppy, also smack opponent. You see where this is going...

Zincorium
2008-02-19, 09:26 PM
Go Monk10/Barbarian10//Sorcerer10/PRC's10 and take Vow of Poverty and Ascetic Mage. You Win.

Er, by taking barbarian and monk, you do not win. You don't even come close. You lose the majority of your monk abilities just to qualify for barbarian, and then, once you are a barbarian, you can't rage and cast spells at the same time.

IF you are going to take vow of poverty, and it may be worth it in this situation, full druid on one side and fighter or ranger on the other, PrCing into warshaper for 4 levels and then some other melee-oriented class. Possibly take a level or two of monk, but don't prioritize it over druid.

Draz74
2008-02-19, 09:34 PM
Oooh, if you can somehow snag access to Magic of Incarnum, Druid//Totemist with Vow of Poverty would be absolutely insane in this situation.

Serenity
2008-02-19, 09:47 PM
I'd like to avoid out and out stinky cheese like the puppy trick. Also, I don't think I've got access to Shock Trooper or Karmic Strike.

I'll try to show him the table at lunch tomorrow, but he's a pretty stubborn guy, and I don't want to push it too much.

In the meantime, might we focus on the hypothetical Psion//Warblade? Not that I don't appreciate other suggestions, but I'm rather fond of the idea, and the synergy with INT seems very nice. Which Psionic discipline would be the best? How much should I look into boosting my other stats? Any rearranging you might suggest off the bat? Is Githzerai a good choice, or should I switch to a race that doesn't have the INT penalty?

Chronos
2008-02-19, 10:05 PM
You lose the majority of your monk abilities just to qualify for barbarian,Not so. The only thing a monk loses by becoming non-lawful is the ability to take more monk levels. All the abilities remain.

You can't, however, do Monk 20 // Barbarian 20 without a houserule.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-19, 10:50 PM
I'd like to avoid out and out stinky cheese like the puppy trick. Also, I don't think I've got access to Shock Trooper or Karmic Strike.

I'll try to show him the table at lunch tomorrow, but he's a pretty stubborn guy, and I don't want to push it too much.

In the meantime, might we focus on the hypothetical Psion//Warblade? Not that I don't appreciate other suggestions, but I'm rather fond of the idea, and the synergy with INT seems very nice. Which Psionic discipline would be the best? How much should I look into boosting my other stats? Any rearranging you might suggest off the bat? Is Githzerai a good choice, or should I switch to a race that doesn't have the INT penalty?

I would still suggest Slayer for the immunity to mind-affecting. Cuts out a lot of the save or loose crap. And I would still suggest Warforged for immunity to a hell of a lot of stuff.

So, as far as a specialty, I would suggest Egoist. It's full of self-buffs and augmentations. It also includes stuff like Greater Metamorphosis, which is kinda like Shapechange, only even more broken, although it does cost 200 xp.

Omniplex
2008-02-20, 12:46 AM
Someone mentions druids. Here's what I think might be a fun idea. Use druid or wild shaping ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) to go into the Master of many forms, at least until you get to use the Extraordinary Powers of your form, and can shapeshift into abberations. then shapeshift into a Will 'O Wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm), which, as extraordinary abilities, has perma-invisability(not very useful at these power levels), Spell Immunity (more like infinite SR) and ridiculous dex. not sure what to do next, but that seems like a good start.

Though, warblade/psion sounds sweet too. Don't forget to pick up schism, so one mind can manifest powers while the other slices and dices.

Chronos
2008-02-20, 02:25 AM
Someone mentions druids. Here's what I think might be a fun idea. Use druid or wild shaping ranger to go into the Master of many forms, at least until you get to use the Extraordinary Powers of your form, and can shapeshift into abberations. then shapeshift into a Will 'O Wisp, which, as extraordinary abilities, has perma-invisability(not very useful at these power levels), Spell Immunity (more like infinite SR) and ridiculous dex. not sure what to do next, but that seems like a good start.The wisp wildshape is a near-perfect defense: Anything that tries to attack you with weapons needs to contend with invisibility, flight, and a very high AC (all of which is good vs. touch attacks), you're immune to most spells, and those few spells which can threaten you require attack rolls. The problem with wisps themselves is their offensive abilities are pretty weak, but Gestalt solves that problem nicely, since you can still attack with spells. Either continue with Druid on one side with MoMF on the other (with some utility class like Monk or Rogue on the other side, until you qualify for MoMF), or take Druid (or Wildshape Ranger) and MoMF on the same side, with Wizard or something similarly powerful on the other side.

Zincorium
2008-02-20, 02:36 AM
I'd like to avoid out and out stinky cheese like the puppy trick. Also, I don't think I've got access to Shock Trooper or Karmic Strike.

I'll try to show him the table at lunch tomorrow, but he's a pretty stubborn guy, and I don't want to push it too much.

In the meantime, might we focus on the hypothetical Psion//Warblade? Not that I don't appreciate other suggestions, but I'm rather fond of the idea, and the synergy with INT seems very nice. Which Psionic discipline would be the best? How much should I look into boosting my other stats? Any rearranging you might suggest off the bat? Is Githzerai a good choice, or should I switch to a race that doesn't have the INT penalty?

I personally wouldn't recommend githzerai, you don't actually need dexterity for much with the classes you have (you can wear heavy armor without a hitch) and wisdom doesn't help you at all. Also, you lose good class features from the LA.

A better choice would be warforged, as a few people have mentioned, as you apparently already have the eberron campaign setting. No penalty to intelligence, plus to con, and very useful racial abilities without a level adjustment.

And Egoist is probably your best choice, it shores up your defensive abilities to go with your already effective warblade defenses.

Supreme Geasser
2008-02-20, 09:12 AM
Wizard/Warblade specialty Iron Heart or Diamond Mind

Reasons why:

1) level 9 Iron Heart maneuver deals 100 damage (no save) + weapon damage
combo with finishing move which deals 4d6 if enemy has full hp, 6d6 if less than full but more than half, 12d6 if less than half.
2) Warblade recover maneuvers by a standard action paired with a single attack and do nothing for the rest of your turn
3) Diamond Mind maneuver Moment of Alacrity increases your Initiative by 20 for the whole encounter
4) Diamond Mind maneuver "Time stands still" allows 2 full-round attack actions paired with full BAB of Warblade and add haste equals 10 attacks
5) For broken wizard/sorcerer spells, go to this url
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18500

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 09:44 AM
Oooh, if you can somehow snag access to Magic of Incarnum, Druid//Totemist with Vow of Poverty would be absolutely insane in this situation.

YES YES YES.

The VoP druid could be awesome here.

You can pretty much work out the effect of a VoP from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2654362&postcount=301), and, if you are looking for a very powerful character, Planar Shepherd (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=709233), here. Go with whatever plane you can find angels from as your home plane. Run around wildshaped into a freakin' Solar.

For your other side, well, totemist would be made out of lulz and win (can you shape soulmelds on top of your wildshape, if it's vaguely humanoid?), but you don't have Magic of Incarnum.

You'd be looking at

Druid 5 / Planar Shepherd 10 / Something that advances casting and wildshape // Swordsage 20?

Serenity
2008-02-20, 11:08 AM
Hmm....that could be interesting, but I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds. I suppose I could try to pick it up from the local game shop, or buy a PDF...

Draz74
2008-02-20, 12:26 PM
In the meantime, might we focus on the hypothetical Psion//Warblade? Not that I don't appreciate other suggestions, but I'm rather fond of the idea, and the synergy with INT seems very nice. Which Psionic discipline would be the best? How much should I look into boosting my other stats? Any rearranging you might suggest off the bat? Is Githzerai a good choice, or should I switch to a race that doesn't have the INT penalty?

All right. Let's see.

Definitely pick a race without an INT penalty. My three recommendations are Elan, Raptoran, or Warforged.

Elan is great because Psions get a lot of PP, especially for an arena setting where you won't need to go through multiple encounters per day (right?). And Elans get extra cool ways to use their PP, besides just manifesting powers, which could save you in an emergency. If you want to go crazy you could even pull off a King of Smack (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=227556) sort of build. You would go Ranger 1/Warblade 19//Psion (Egoist) 10/Slayer 10, and pick up the Improved Rapidstrike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Improved_Rapidstrike,Dr) feat from Draconomicon at Level 15. (That is the part where being an Elan is important.) This feat would enable you to make a lot more attacks using your Claws of the Beast power (which you'd have to pick up via feat), which will be 7d6 damage attacks (or more, if you use Metamorphosis or Expansion to make yourself bigger). Even if you don't use the whole King of Smack thing, Elan is a solid choice on its own.

Raptoran: it has no penalties to any ability scores, and it flies. It's probably not the best choice, but it's a particular favorite of mine, especially for Warblade builds, since they have so little abilities with ranged attacks in case they run into flying opponents.
On the other hand, it's not too hard for you to get flight through the Psionic Fly or Psionic Overland Flight power. So maybe you want a race with more features.

Warforged I'm recommending, not so much because of its immunities, but because you can have very efficient self-healing, as a Warforged, via the Psionic Repair Damage power. Unfortunately it's a Shaper discipline spell, so you either have to be a Shaper or spend a feat on it.

Definitely focus your maneuvers on Diamond Mind the most. It's already a decent discipline, and it just gets better when you add Psionic synergy (more reasons to max your Concentration skill, and the ability to "take 15" on Concentration checks).

What are you planning in terms of PrCs? Bloodstorm Blade would take away some of your melee-only weakness as a Warblade. It's ridiculously cheesy, fluff-wise, but in an arena you may not care about that. But that's just one PrC idea; I'm sure people have other suggestions.

Psionic Disciplines ... Egoist is a strong option, as others have said. Hustle is a great power, especially when you want to recover your Psionic Focus (to "take 15" on another Concentration check) and you have Psionic Meditation (the feat, which, you should note, requires 13 WIS). Metamorphosis and Greater Metamorphosis are, of course, broken if you know what you're doing with them.

Nomad isn't too appealing except for Psionic Fly. Oooh, although Psionic Dimensional Anchor could definitely put a wrench in some opponents' plans. Seer ... meh. Telepath is a strong discipline, but not so much in an arena setting, except for Schism. If you're not a Telepath, you definitely have to save a feat to get Schism.

Shaper is an interesting option too. Astral Construct is really a good summoning power, especially if you get the Boost Construct feat and the Ecto Protection power. And the PrC that was from a Mind's Eye article on the Wizards web site, which gave you extra powers as a psionic specialized summoner.
If you go this direction, go all-out. Be a Warforged Shaper/PrC, who fights mainly with his Astral Constructs (depending on whether your DM accepts the Complete Psionic errata about only-one-Astral-Construct-at-a-time). Heal them, and yourself and your Psicrystal, with Psionic Repair Damage. Get a Psicrystal and the feat that lets it hold a second Psionic Focus for you. Manifest the power Solicit Psicrystal and find a power that is very powerful, except for the way you have to concentrate on it continually; your Psicrystal can do that power for you while you keep doing other stuff.

... but the whole Shaper idea takes you pretty far from the "Warblade" concept, so you may be best off just sticking with Egoist.

Abilities: STR 12, DEX 12, CON 12, INT 18, WIS 12, CHA 8 before racial adjustments.

Equipment: if you focus on Diamond Mind, then a Third Eye Concentrate from the XPH is certainly worthwhile for 10000 gp. Also, CON-boosting items become more valuable than usual in this case.

Note that, while people have been saying you need Slayer or an item to give you immunity to mind-affecting abilities, you can also learn the Personal Mind Blank power to get the effect. Although it can be dispelled or take a precious action to activate, it's still an option.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 12:54 PM
Well, having just picked up the BoED, and having confirmed that the DM will definitely be using the 200,000 GP limit, I think I might just go with that VOP Druid/Planar Shepherd//Swordsage build after all. Wisdom synergy, Wild Shape into a Solar, lots of skill points, Swordsage nets me a free Weapon Focus for Sanctify Weapon, and oodles of bonuses from VoP, while the other characters will be at sub-par WBL...I think it should work very nicely. I think I'll go for Human, which will give me a couple extra skills, and the bonus feat to pick up Sacred Vow and VoP right at 1st level. So now to distribute 32 point buy for a Solar swordsage....

Draz74
2008-02-20, 01:11 PM
Well, considering how one of the main broken things about Wild Shape is how you can dump STR and DEX:

STR 8, DEX 8, CON 16, INT 12, WIS 18, CHA 10

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-20, 01:41 PM
Well, having just picked up the BoED, and having confirmed that the DM will definitely be using the 200,000 GP limit, I think I might just go with that VOP Druid/Planar Shepherd//Swordsage build after all. Wisdom synergy, Wild Shape into a Solar, lots of skill points, Swordsage nets me a free Weapon Focus for Sanctify Weapon, and oodles of bonuses from VoP, while the other characters will be at sub-par WBL...I think it should work very nicely. I think I'll go for Human, which will give me a couple extra skills, and the bonus feat to pick up Sacred Vow and VoP right at 1st level. So now to distribute 32 point buy for a Solar swordsage....

Of course, the only downside is Swordsage is only a 3/4 BAB. You'd get full BAB out of Warblade, but the Wis to AC thing is pretty nifty. See if you can get the 'monk variant' Swordsage. In short, you ditch light armor proficency (pointless with this build) for monk unarmed damage progression. It's on page 20 of ToB.So now you'll be doing 2d10 (as a medium size, appropriately sized up) on every unarmed attack. Stack up on maneuvers with favored weapon: Unarmed. Win.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 01:48 PM
Hmm, that might also be benefit snapping up Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick somewhere along the lines.

For the bonus Exalted Feats I get from VoP, do I have to meet all the prerequisites? 'Cause a number of the good ones are powered by the CHA I've dumped.

Also, are the save and BAB progression of the Planar Shepherd the same as the Druid?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 02:25 PM
Hmm, that might also be benefit snapping up Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick somewhere along the lines.

For the bonus Exalted Feats I get from VoP, do I have to meet all the prerequisites? 'Cause a number of the good ones are powered by the CHA I've dumped.

Remember the +6 VoP stat-boost. It doesn't have to be dumped too much.

Also, for extra cheese, remember that you don't have to take the vow at first level; you could live a normal life, just buying tons and tons of stat tomes, and then take VoP as your 18th level feat - repudiating wealth later in life. Sure, you lose the feats, but everything else is retroactive.


Also, are the save and BAB progression of the Planar Shepherd the same as the Druid?

I cannot elucidate on copyright matters, but the answer is 'wink'. I hope you catch my meaning. :smallamused:

Swooper
2008-02-20, 03:31 PM
Personally I'd go with a Monk//Barbarian, but that's just me.
And how do you plan to do that? You can't be both lawful and non-lawful at the same time, can you?

Swooper
2008-02-20, 03:53 PM
Preferably, you'd start the battle with psionic focus already up. It lasts until you expend it or go unconscious, and you can regain it as often as you want, so why would any character ever not have it at the start of a battle? Some way to regain it quickly would be good if you plan to use it multiple times in a fight, though.
True - but it depends on the rules of the arena. The only arena I've played in didn't allow people to start the battle focused.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 04:11 PM
Well, darn, it turns out stuff from Eberron isn't allowed...and I'd already started statting it out, too. Hmm, would Master of Many Forms be a good substitute for Planar Shepherd? Or should I go back to Warblade/Egoist?

((Here's a link to the rules: http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/OGRE/obercon.html))

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-20, 04:41 PM
Well, darn, it turns out stuff from Eberron isn't allowed...and I'd already started statting it out, too. Hmm, would Master of Many Forms be a good substitute for Planar Shepherd? Or should I go back to Warblade/Egoist?

((Here's a link to the rules: http://www.oberlin.edu/stuorg/OGRE/obercon.html))

May I suggest Warshaper from Complete Warrior? While wild shaped, you become immune to crits and stuns, not to mention an increase in damage natural attacks do, additional stat bonuses, extra reach, and MultiMorph, which lets you switch out what you are shaped into mid-wild shape. Since you're going to be wild shaping anyways, might as well take advantage, eh?

That would make it Druid5/MoMF10/Warshaper5//Swordsage(monk variant)20

Serenity
2008-02-20, 04:52 PM
Don't have CW, and after just dropping 32 bucks on Exalted, I'm not eager to buy something new. I'll ask my friend Tim if he's got it, though. He's got quite a collection, I hear.

playswithfire
2008-02-20, 05:01 PM
Fist of the Forest from Complete Champion is also useful if one of your friends has that. First level grants CON to AC unarmored and boosts unarmed damage to the next step of monk unarmed progression and the prereqs (though they escape me at the moment), aren't steep.

Second level gives you scent and third level takes unarmed damage to the next step. Also full BAB; has RP requirements that shouldn't matter in an arena and make sense for a druid anyway.

sikyon
2008-02-20, 05:08 PM
I hear Wizard 20 is a pretty powerful build, you should look into it.

Are you allowed custom magic items? You can make some pretty strong stuff.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 05:11 PM
Hmm...I was just looking through my copy of Exalted Deeds. Druid 5/MoMF 10/Lion of Talisid 5 on the one side? I still cast as a 10th level druid, I still wildshape 14 times per day, but I also get Lion's Pounce, Scent, and the Exalted Companion feat as a bonus...which makes it more palatable to take Vow of Poverty later on, and drop a few bonus feats, which is helpful in getting into MoMF as scheduled.

I might also take Natural Bond to make up for some of the Animal Companion levels I lose from MoMF. I'll probably also want Natural Spell, and perhaps a Tactical Feat or two from ToB?

What are good Maneuvers to focus on for the Swordsage half? Tiger Claw stuff seems an obvious choice. Shadow Hand seems pretty nice in general...

Serenity
2008-02-20, 08:09 PM
Question: Is my Celestial Wolf Companion, with his 8 hit dice and various other bonuses, still only 1d6+X damage with his bite at a slightly adjusted BAB? Or do the extra hit dice throw in some chance that he'll actually be able to do something to 20th level foes? Maybe I should forget about getting any druidic bonuses on my companion and just call on a Megaraptor...

Triaxx
2008-02-20, 08:19 PM
And how do you plan to do that? You can't be both lawful and non-lawful at the same time, can you?

By posting correctly. I actually intended Druid//Barbarian. The trick there being not abusing natural spell, but instead abusing the fact that you can rage while in a wildshape. Especially if you use the PRC's giving you the really neat wildshapes, and the enhanced rage abilities.

TheMeanDM
2008-02-20, 08:22 PM
Since you get wisdom bonus to AC, don't forget the Druid Spell "Owl's Insight".

It adds 1/2 your EDIT: Caster level to your Wisdom as a bonus. At 20th level, that's +10!!

Also, as people have mentioned: Druid's with Wildshape don't need to worry about STR/DEX/CHA. Because they adopt whatever form they get into.

***

The idea of a Astral Construct shaper//whatever is quite interesting, because if you take the Ectopic Adept PRC, and Schism as an Expanded Knowledge, you can summon 2 Constructs each round for as long as you have Power Points to spend. That's because Astral Construct is a 1st level manifestation.

A 9th "level" construct investment is going to get you an 18HD construct.

Add in the carapace feat (can't think of the name right now, but it lets them blow themselves up), and you can summon your constructs, they each get an attack on your opponent(s) and then they blow up for 18d6 of additional damage each. Even average damage of 3 points per die is 108, just from blast damage.

-- props to MrScary for this idea in the Grinder recruitment thread --

Vexxation
2008-02-20, 08:26 PM
Edited for reading comprehension. Or lack thereof.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 08:33 PM
Mmm, Owl's Inisght, I like it. I've already got a natural Wisdom of 29. Out of Wildshape and wearing no armor, I have an AC 31.

All right, so I have three feats left to give this guy. I figure I'll take a Tactical Feat and it's prerequisite--I'm thinking Unnerving Calm and Perfect Clarity or Shadow Blade and Gloom Razor--and then maybe Improved Unarmed Strike so I'm not drawing attacks of opportunity every time I hit people...unless we can consider the unarmed Swordsage to have that already?

Reinboom
2008-02-20, 08:41 PM
Note about owl's insight:
It says caster level, caster level is a specific variable that is not fully determined by just character level...

In short. You can pump it to extremes (I think I've managed a caster level 50 druid before, in theoretical without any loops).

Serenity
2008-02-20, 08:43 PM
Come to think of it, if it is Caster Level, I'm only casting as a 10th level druid...

TheMeanDM
2008-02-20, 08:48 PM
Oh, edit: Owl's Insight is 1/2 your Caster Level.

So if your Druid CL is 20, then you get +10.

And it lasts an hour.

So you cast it just before you prepare spells for the day, I suppose, getting the huge benefit to bonus spells per day.

Serenity
2008-02-21, 04:12 PM
Is my wild shape limited by my hit dice? As a 10th level MoMF, I can wild shape into a Gargantuan creature. Is that any Gargantuan creature of an appropriate type, or only the ones at or under 20 hit dice, since I'm a level 20 character?

Serenity
2008-02-21, 11:36 PM
I'm almost done...I just need to pick a few good Wild Shape forms. It's a pity Hydras are Magical Beasts, otherwise, I could use Time Stands Still to attack 24 times at my full attack bonus. Oh well. I'm thinking Roc, Storm Giant, and a dragon form are all fairly attractive...any other suggestions?

Serenity
2008-02-22, 09:22 AM
Well, I've found the solution to getting a Hydra wild-shape: make it a half-dragon.

Question: When I change my readied maneuvers with Adaptive Style, they'd become immediately available by virtue of being readied, right? So does that mean that, with a full round action, I could reselect maneuvers I had expended as part of the change, thereby regaining all my maneuvers with some alterations?

Douglas
2008-02-22, 09:34 AM
Yes. That interpretation of Adaptive Style has been repeatedly confirmed by Customer Service, and is the reason it is a must-have feat for every Swordsage. You can even select exactly the same set of maneuvers with no changes at all and all of them would immediately be readied again and available for use (unless you're a Crusader, in which case you have to work out granted maneuvers).

Chronos
2008-02-22, 04:51 PM
Well, I've found the solution to getting a Hydra wild-shape: make it a half-dragon. Unless Master of Many Forms says otherwise, I don't think you can wildshape into a form which has a template.

Toliudar
2008-02-22, 06:33 PM
Would it be possible to go MoMF off of the swordsage side, rather than the druid? That way, you're not losing caster levels, and would still end up having a, what, 15 initiator level as swordsage?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-22, 07:34 PM
Would it be possible to go MoMF off of the swordsage side, rather than the druid? That way, you're not losing caster levels, and would still end up having a, what, 15 initiator level as swordsage?

You'd loose all those maneuvers and stances known, though... probably not worth it.

Serenity
2008-02-22, 11:37 PM
I never found any rule against it, and the MoMF says I can Wild Shape into a dragon, which a Half Copper Dragon Pyrohydra counts as. At any rate, the DM allowed it, and I wreaked much havoc. I likely would have won, had the battle not dragged on long enough that the DM chose to wrap up by killing everyone with a spectacularly epic spell.

Chronos
2008-02-23, 01:28 AM
Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape):
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here.
Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm):
A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

But, of course, if the DM allowed it, that's the final word. Glad you had fun!

Serenity
2008-02-23, 12:17 PM
My PHB says Wild Shapes acts as Polymorph, which suffers under no such restriction.

Douglas
2008-02-23, 12:33 PM
That's the pre-errata text. Polymorph and most similar abilities have undergone quite a bit of errata as WotC tried to fix them before finally giving up. d20srd.org includes all the errata, your printed PHB does not.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-23, 02:25 PM
Play an Illithid with Improved Grapple, just for the laughs.

Turn 1: Mind Blast (if you've pimped out Charisma, you can easily manage DC22 or so). Turn 2: Attach tentacles. Turn 3: attach more tentacles. Turn 4: eat brains. Rinse and repeat.

Optimal classes for mindflaying death would be a full BAB class opposite an Int, Wis or Cha based caster (if you're after maxing the DCs on your at-will abilities, Cha-based is best). The caster's optional, to be honest; one idea I like is some Duelist levels for the full BAB and Int bonus to AC.

In fact, Mind Flayer RHD 8/ Duelist 10/ Something 2 // LA 7/ Something 13 (Bard? Wizard? Monk for even more stats to AC?) would work...