Is Celia REALLY annoying you now?

[Charles Phipps]

Seriously, Haley should shove a sword into her.

I don't like her attitude.

She can complain about Haley's leadership when she's done anything heroic in her life.

Her act has killed Roy/Celia for me.

He should go get a nice Elf girl.

[osyluth]

Not at all. She's funny.

[Kish]

Charles, why do I suspect that for Celia to get your favor, she should have expressed complete disinterest in seeing Roy resurrected?

[Mee]

I like Celia, she's funny, and nice, (most of the time) just, kinda clueless, that's all.

[Charles Phipps]

Charles, why do I suspect that for Celia to get your favor, she should have expressed complete disinterest in seeing Roy resurrected?

No, I support Miko/Roy.

:-)

Really, I don't approve of Interspecies Relationships. Their children will be unholy amalgamations of Fey and man! KILL IT BEFORE IT SPREADS!

Dirty Dirty Dirty Air Gensai.

[Mirrinus]

Absolutely not. Celia's been hilarious thus far, and I hope she sticks around.

[The Extinguisher]

No one's dying for your ship. Sorry.
Also, that trope is increadibly ironic here, because both Miko and Roy ARE dead.

I enjoy Celia. She's been funny every time.

[Mee]

Really, I don't approve of Interspecies Relationships. Their children will be unholy amalgamations of Fey and man! KILL IT BEFORE IT SPREADS!


Really? What about half-elves, half-orcs, half-dragons, half-demons, and many many more, a half (what ever Celia is, sorry the internet is being slow, and I don't want to go check, Fey?) wouldn't be to bad really.
And I hope she stays for quite a while.

[dbat19]

i never like Celia anyway, so whatever she do now can't annoy me any more.

i guess i am kinda a traditional person. A girl making love with a man she only see twice before is too much for me.

Miko/Roy would be a much better couple imo, yeah, Miko take everything too serious and is too self-center, but with understanding, this would be a more longlasting marriage.

[Charles Phipps]

Really? What about half-elves, half-orcs, half-dragons, half-demons, and many many more, a half (what ever Celia is, sorry the internet is being slow, and I don't want to go check, Fey?) wouldn't be to bad really.
And I hope she stays for quite a while.

Nope. I have no problem with Aasimar or Tieflings either.

But Elementals? NO WAY.

*picks up picket sign that reads "Go back to the Inner Planes!"*

[Mee]

i guess i am kinda a traditional person. A girl making love with a man she only see twice before is too much for me.


That I can't agree with enough. It just, should, never, happen, ever.
But, what's wrong with her? She's not really annoying, not that I've seen. She's just, like I said earlier, kinda clueless.
EDIT: I got ninja'd, but she's not an elemental. She's a sylph, looking at the MM2 right now, it says sylphs are outsiders, not elementals. (Unless they're the same thing , in which case, oops. I don't really deal with elementals much)

[Oakianus]

Some of my best friends are fast in bed. :(

But seriously, I don't particularly see it as that negative, especially when you consider that she's fairy folk. They're rather traditionally sexually loose, from what I recall.

And Celia is friggin genius for getting Haley to stop being a prat, in my personal opinion.

[memnarch]

Not really; people tend to be cranky when they've just been woken up.

[Helios Sunshard]

I dont think Celia is anoying, she is helping Haley to do what she is afraid of. It is just that she knows little about humans.

[Woof]

Nope. I've always liked Celia, and I think it was about time someone pointed out the truth to Haley /shrug. Actually it's rather Haley who's getting on my nerves at the moment.

[Querzis]

Nope. I've always liked Celia, and I think it was about time someone pointed out the truth to Haley /shrug. Actually it's rather Haley who's getting on my nerves at the moment.

I gotta agree, Haley is annoying me right now, I expected her to be smarter, wiser and more realistic then that. Celia was great.

And I gotta say Roy and Celia make a nice couple, shes as sarcastic as him!

By the way, some people take sex way too seriously here. Especially when talking about a world with things like half-orc, half-ogre, half-dragon or succubus.

[North]

Celias awesome. Within a day shes figured out why the others cant find them. Something Haley would have never been able to figure out.

[Charles Phipps]

Haley is a Hero.

She's John Conner of the Resistance.

Celia is a selfish twit whose going to get them all killed.

My .02.

[Chronos]

Actually it's rather Haley who's getting on my nerves at the moment.Agreed, and it was great seeing Celia slapping some sense into her. Haley's had enough of this emo self-delusion.

[Zeitgeist]

Why I like Celia even more now:

She's the biggest story catalyst we've had in a long time, and seems to be the main reason Oots will reunite again. She said everything Roy wanted to say. Guess Roy may never need to speak while dead.

And she's funny.

[RTGoodman]

She's the biggest story catalyst we've had in a long time, and seems to be the main reason Oots will reunite again.

Story catalyst? More like the Voice of the DM. He's saying, "Hey, stop fooling around! Here's an NPC to tell you that it's time to get on with the plot!"

Or, at least, that's the kind of DM I usually have... :smallbiggrin:


Anyway, I like Celia a lot. I echo the sentiment that Haley is really the one getting on my nerves. Of course, I've never liked her as much as the rest of the OotS, so it's nothing new.

[RMS Oceanic]

Celia just seems annoying to Haley because, intellectually, Celia is her equal. Haley is used to being right all the time, like in #428, so to be challenged so openly by this (literal) outsider is something new and disconcerting to her, and refreshing to us who usually see Haley cheat her way to an unfair share of wealth with almost no challenge, noble motive or not.

[Silvermike]

i guess i am kinda a traditional person. A girl making love with a man she only see twice before is too much for me.


I don't get it - you don't like her because she decided to have sex with someone she really liked, was attracted to, and was happily willing?

And also, are you really only holding it against Celia and not Roy?

[Superglucose]

I don't get it - you don't like her because she decided to have sex with someone she really liked, was attracted to, and was happily willing?

And also, are you really only holding it against Celia and not Roy?

Quick question here... can we have this topic NOT be about how an individual's morals are double-standards, wrong, good, bad, or otherwise existing or not existing?

[dbat19]

I don't get it - you don't like her because she decided to have sex with someone she really liked, was attracted to, and was happily willing?

And also, are you really only holding it against Celia and not Roy?

baiscally, yeah, i don't like her because she have sex with a half-stranger that is handsome and have a big sword.

i don't know, but i really think that sex should only happened when people are married:smalltongue: , definitely not with someone you only see twice in your life and know nothing of, and not right after you part with your old boyfriend.

As for Roy, it's the same thing, but its Celia who start everything, so......

[Charles Phipps]

Celia just seems annoying to Haley because, intellectually, Celia is her equal. Haley is used to being right all the time, like in #428, so to be challenged so openly by this (literal) outsider is something new and disconcerting to her, and refreshing to us who usually see Haley cheat her way to an unfair share of wealth with almost no challenge, noble motive or not.

Haley's intellectual equal is someone who doesn't know anything about humans but is lecturing her about what she has to do? :smallsigh:

I admit, Celia seems like a nice girl but she has no right to tell Haley what to do.

[Paragon Badger]

Actually, all of Celia's points are valid ones.

But here's one of mine. :smallwink:

Haley should not be leading a resistence movement when she can step down in favor of someone who will unite the 3 groups together. She said so herself, the other two groups cannot trust any member of the Order. By being stubborn, she's helping Team Evil by dividing supplies among the resistence movement.

Back to Celia.

Celia comes up with a plan of action. Haley's response is inaction.

Celia: Let's go find a wizard to establish contact with the other members of the Order.
Haley: Let's wait here for someone to establish contact with us... even if it takes longer than 3 months, when V should have been able to send us a message the next morning.

Celia is perfectly justified in her response to Haley's selfishness about Elan, too. In a setting where death isn't so permanent, Celia is acting calm and collected. Whereas Haley is going as far as to avoid searching for Elan, in fear of discovering he's dead. That's inaction.

And honestly, how could you NOT figure out that communication magic was blocked? Seriously, after the first few days, I'd suspect one of following.
A) V is dead/incapacitated, unable to cast his spells.*
B) Magic is blocked, either in Azure City or wherever V is.

*Not likely, since someone can be hired to cast a communication spell to Haley. Heck, even a scroll.

Now, either one of these conclusions promptly indicates the best course of action is to... Get out of Azure City.

[Corwin Weber]

Haley's intellectual equal is someone who doesn't know anything about humans but is lecturing her about what she has to do? :smallsigh:

I admit, Celia seems like a nice girl but she has no right to tell Haley what to do.

Erm..... Haley doesn't seem to know a whole hell of a lot about what fey are like either. Double standard much?

And to both of you, we're discussing a world that not only has effective contraception, but this little thing called 'Cure Disease Potions.' What exactly is the problem here?

Now this isn't to say there aren't any problems with the relationship. It was horrifically unethical to start out with actually.... and might still be. Let's remember who Celia is here.

She is in fact Roy's lawyer.

[factotum]

and not right after you part with your old boyfriend.


Right after? They spent MONTHS travelling to Azure City! Or do you think Celia should have been in mourning for her lost love for seven years before finding someone else?

[Icewalker]

Celia is a selfish twit whose going to get them all killed.

I don't follow. Sounds to me like Celia is going to get the plot on the road, be an interesting semi-temporary main character, raise Roy, and reunite the Order. Meanwhile, the resistance will become far stronger by possibly combining with the other resistance remnants. Looks more like a 'Everyone wins, and Celia did it' kind of deal than 'everyone is going to die'.

I find her entertaining, and her logical point of view awesome. It's the painfully objective point of view, pointing out the harsh things that others won't admit to even though their dismissal is a cause of distress and danger in their lives.

[psycojester]

Celia is a selfish twit whose going to get them all killed.

Yeah, how could she dare suggesting that they should undertake a course of action which allow them to reunite the best chance for defeating Xykon and resurrecting Roy based on well founded argues based on observed facts

THE BITCH!



Haley's intellectual equal is someone who doesn't know anything about humans but is lecturing her about what she has to do?

Its not a problem where 'being human' is a major factor, if Celia had started to lecture Haley on her relationship with Elan then maybe this argument could be justified, but being trapped under a magic shield in a city under the control of a hobgoblin army isn't a problem that requires a keen insight into the human psyche in order to comprehend.

Maybe you should just edit your original post to say "i'm grumpy because the comic has done something other than my fantasy ship", Miko is a dead obnoxious self-righteous delusion fallen paladin. Accept it. Its not going to happen.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd have to agree with Paragon Badger's points regarding Celia. Admittedly, I was finding her annoying due to how she doesn't seem to know anyhting about humans (and the fact that she could have mentioned Cloister as soon as Haley mentioned that she hadn't heard from anyone). The problem with Haley and Belkar leaving the resistance is that we don't know how strong everyone else is, so they could be a huge loss if they left. (Also, I can see where Haley was coming from about waiting due to not knowing where they were as well as the fact that setting out to find a Wizard would be really risky).

[Mordokai]

To answer OP question: no, I don't find her annoying. Quite the contrary. I find her funny and witty and I agree with peoples who said it's actually Haley who's being more of a pain in ass this last few weeks.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[ShellBullet]

Admittedly, I was finding her annoying due to how she doesn't seem to know anyhting about humans (and the fact that she could have mentioned Cloister as soon as Haley mentioned that she hadn't heard from anyone)

She thought that humans could sense, if tthere was some sort of spell like she could...

And no, I don't find her annying, I wouldn't miss her if she suddenly disappeared from the comic.

[The Hop Goblin]

Maybe you should just edit your original post to say "i'm grumpy because the comic has done something other than my fantasy ship", Miko is a dead obnoxious self-righteous delusion fallen paladin. Accept it. Its not going to happen.

Second'd. That seems the primary underlying cause for the Ceilia haters - that Miko and Roy would have had a better romance (??).

I find Ceilia's absent-mindedness a pun in and of itself: An Air-head Air Elemental :D. She also seems to have a mindset people can't seem to grasp. It's D&D - People dying isn't a source of huge tragedy as much as it is a hassle finding a healer and material components. That is something about Ceilia's no-nonsense business approach that Haley (nor some RL people) can grasp.

I myself have debated about removing resurrection spells (or any of their like) entirely from games I run (or at the very least, limit them greatly) - as it removes some good RP opportunities.

[Rad]

No I kinda like her actually. I think that her insight on things was very refreshening. Haley knew that they were almost wasting their time with a three-way resistance and she was not really expecting V any more. She was just afraid of going out, making a lot of "good" reaosns to stay where she was. Not that the resistance is cozy (not with Tsukiko around) but it's something she finds easier to deal with.

Celia makes a lot of sense and thrown an outsider gaze on the whole thing with no emotional restrains (she has emotional ties, but they do not stop her: they incite her to do things).

Miko... I'd love to see her back and repenting but I'm not sure how that is going to work out. Maybe she can have a future with O'Chul :smallbiggrin:

[cheesecake]

I hate to say it she was getting a little on my nerves. What has she done? Failed to guard a dungeon, and drop out of college. But, at least because of her PLOT IS MOVING AGAIN! Maybe we can get somewhere again. 31 comics and we really haven't moved further than azure city, and a boat somewhere.

[Tempest Fennac]

The problem is that it was ncessary for he comic to move at this pace so that there was time to explain what everyone else had been doing while setting up for the (presumably) inevitable comic where the team gets reunited (it's not like Goblins, which is often just pointlessly drawn out fight scenes).

[bluewind95]

I like Celia. She's... quite the contrast to the other characters. I must agree with those who say Haley was being a bit... annoying. Yes, she got some awesome lines (like when she made Belkar hush), but... her grim "I'm doomed into being a leader" attitude... just isn't the Haley that I grew to like. I liked the energetic Haley, not the Haley that moves through inertia, just because there's nothing to move her into action anymore. I'm glad to see Celia giving Haley the much-needed push to return her to action.

As for Celia's relationship with Roy... I don't see why something I personally wouldn't approve of would make me dislike a character. After all... it's a fictional world, I recognize it as such, it won't change my ideals, and it doesn't have to reflect my ideals. :smalltongue:

[Daimbert]

Hmmmm. I was more along the lines of "I think I'm in love!" [grin].

Haley needed those things said to her and certainly is not shy about doing the same sorts of things. I fail to see what the big problem with Celia is.

[Paladin29]

Celia was right, Haley was wrong and Haley acknowledge it... i don´t see anything annoying...

[Human Paragon 3]

I think the real problem is that she's breaking your heart. She's shaking your confidence daily.

/Kudos to those who get the reference.

[Laurentio]

Meh. Don't understand how a paragon between Celia and Haley can be started.
Celia is a smart and intelligent girl (she is a lawman, not the easier work to do well, and she does it well). In a matter of a few hours, she goes from the confort of her bed to a new, hard and complex reality, and manage to find the most logical and practical of line of action.
It's easy to do, guys. Everyone of us, even people not able to take a law course (I couldn't...). She never had to live the problem one day after the other, having to work several risks at once!
We know that Haley had to search for food, fight with undead and goblin while having disputes with other groups of human (that you can't just kill and shut the problem), meet blackmarket sellers, free slaver, chief a bunch of low level NPC. And Belkar. Yes, definitively managing Belkar, and you know how it's. All while waiting to be crushed by a Maximized Delayed Fireball by a lich, with the constant thought of your beloved being dead.

On the other hand Celia had to... pass tests... and manage her mother. Wow. Epic.

Did anyone ever noticed that when you hear a story, or see a film, where someone is troubled over his head, you always have a good and solid solution that work in a minute? Easy to think about, while grinding some pop-corn. Harder, if you are dodging bullets, or you daughter is in a dead-trap.

So please, stop telling that Celia is the smartest and bravest of heroine. Is just a smart person, with a fresh mind, magical perception and the opportunity to take actions without fearing any conseguence (she can always go home in a puff, doesn't her?). No one noticed how much distant is from the bad reality? While everyone is trying to survive, she is trouble by (gosh!) a bad tailored shirt! Poor girl!
And allow me, she is caring only of Roy, that is quite selfish when you think at a thousand of slaves and resistance. Bonus XP to Haley, this side.

Last thing: it's easy to outsmart a person that was sleeping until a minute before.

[bluewind95]

Well, yes. Haley acting any different from what she's acting like would indeed be almost... impossible. She's a character that's gone through too much. And indeed, a comparison to Celia is not fair. But Haley still needed a push to get her going again, and I think Celia provided that.

[Janmorel]

Nope, not annoying. Anything that moves the story out of the stupid blue city is definitely not annoying. I'll admit that the "wait... humans can't do that either?" gag is getting old, but the fact that Haley gets her own exposition fairy makes up for it.

[Caractacus]

Meh. Don't understand how a paragon between Celia and Haley can be started.
Celia is a smart and intelligent girl (she is a lawman, not the easier work to do well, and she does it well). In a matter of a few hours, she goes from the confort of her bed to a new, hard and complex reality, and manage to find the most logical and practical of line of action.
It's easy to do, guys. Everyone of us, even people not able to take a law course (I couldn't...). She never had to live the problem one day after the other, having to work several risks at once!
We know that Haley had to search for food, fight with undead and goblin while having disputes with other groups of human (that you can't just kill and shut the problem), meet blackmarket sellers, free slaver, chief a bunch of low level NPC. And Belkar. Yes, definitively managing Belkar, and you know how it's. All while waiting to be crushed by a Maximized Delayed Fireball by a lich, with the constant thought of your beloved being dead.

On the other hand Celia had to... pass tests... and manage her mother. Wow. Epic.

Did anyone ever noticed that when you hear a story, or see a film, where someone is troubled over his head, you always have a good and solid solution that work in a minute? Easy to think about, while grinding some pop-corn. Harder, if you are dodging bullets, or you daughter is in a dead-trap.

So please, stop telling that Celia is the smartest and bravest of heroine. Is just a smart person, with a fresh mind, magical perception and the opportunity to take actions without fearing any conseguence (she can always go home in a puff, doesn't her?). No one noticed how much distant is from the bad reality? While everyone is trying to survive, she is trouble by (gosh!) a bad tailored shirt! Poor girl!
And allow me, she is caring only of Roy, that is quite selfish when you think at a thousand of slaves and resistance. Bonus XP to Haley, this side.

Last thing: it's easy to outsmart a person that was sleeping until a minute before.

Preach it, brother!

Absolutely.

I do think Celia is NECESSARY here, but really it's all self, self, self. She gets Roy back. Haley has been rescuing people from slavery. Now we know that the bigger plot is to save the world, so Celia is right - but she is certainly rude and a bit unpleasant at times.

However, if I am to hope that people will agree with me that Haley is not a main leader and is also kind so THAT is why she stayed behind and did what she did, then I have to be able accept that Celia's personality can be more grating than I would like and that she, too, has reasons for being all pushy. Hopefully, we all win here.

BTW, Belkar presumably is playing his 'It's not in my character to be intelligent and leader-like, so it's unreasonable to expect me to be' card. Otherwise what has he been up to? Not much. Less than Haley. Naturally, he can't leave Roy (we think) and naturally, he can't kill living beings in the city radius, but that REALLY doesn't explain why he doesn't leave. If he gets a get-out-of-jail-free card for personality, then I feel it's a bit much for Haley to take in the teeth for being pretty much like SHE is.

Still, all will be well soon: I've seen the future, and it works! :smallcool:

[Querzis]

I'll admit that the "wait... humans can't do that either?" gag is getting old

Well its not like Haley knew any of the things Sylph could do either. If Sylphs were reading this comic instead of humans, then they would say Haley is stupid for not knowing Sylph can do that.

[jafar]

Hey Rich,

Can Celia join the OOTS in a permanent way? Please?? She's funny. And she annoys Haley. A twofer! And I like the way her teeth tingle when Xykon's angry.

Besides, the OOTS needs more gender balance. V doesn't help.

Great stuff! :smallsmile:

[Morgan Wick]

She's the biggest story catalyst we've had in a long time, and seems to be the main reason Oots will reunite again. She said everything Roy wanted to say. Guess Roy may never need to speak while dead.

If he doesn't, what was the point, storywise, of him trying to?

[Rogue 7]

I think the real problem is that she's breaking your heart. She's shaking your confidence daily.

/Kudos to those who get the reference.

...But Roy isn't down on his knees, begging her please to come home...

And it's Cecelia

[Janmorel]

Well its not like Haley knew any of the things Sylph could do either. If Sylphs were reading this comic instead of humans, then they would say Haley is stupid for not knowing Sylph can do that.

Probably. I could still use a break from this particular running gag for a strip or two. I wonder if Roy will remember to ask for instructions next time he gets a magical dohickey?

[TroyXavier]

Yeah, though mostly it boils down to the fact I've really tired of "Oh, humans can't do that either?" Hard to believe that a girl who's studying law knows nothing of humans.

[Alfryd]

Is Celia REALLY annoying you now?
Well, at least she's developing a personality.


...i don't know, but i really think that sex should only happened when people are married , definitely not with someone you only see twice in your life and know nothing of, and not right after you part with your old boyfriend.
There's something to be said for caution, but never bumping uglies before you commit to a lifetime of never bumping uglies with anyone else strikes me as a somewhat risky investment.


Haley should not be leading a resistence movement when she can step down in favor of someone who will unite the 3 groups together. ...By being stubborn, she's helping Team Evil by dividing supplies among the resistence movement.
Oooh. Excellent point.

We know that Haley had to search for food, fight with undead and goblin while having disputes.. with the constant thought of your beloved being dead.
Yes, I can understand that Haley was stressed. But you know what a perfectly rational response to being stressed is? Running away. Fight or Flight. Get as far away from the city, chock-full to the brim with things that want to kill you, as is humanly possible, collect yourself, and devote your not-inconsiderable resources to relocating the rest of the party.

[Paladin29]

I don´t think that Celia is selfish because she wants to resusrrect Roy. Love is not selfish because Love make us to give our own lives to save our loved one. And i am sure that Haley have a capable second-in-comand to carry the rebel group in her absence.

[The Wanderer]

Nope, Celia is dead right. Haley can't accomplish anything staying with her resistance movement of 200, (versus a hobgoblin army of 20,000, plus Xykon and Redcloak, and the possibility of clashing with the other resistance movements), especially given that they can't pay for weapons and can barely even keep basic supplies coming in, and as already mentioned, her presence might be keeping her people from allying with the other resistance groups.

After three and a half months it should be obvious that something was up: of course V, Durkon, and Elan would have contacted her or been back at her side in a second if it was possible. Adding onto that, the best rationalization she could come up with for not going was "But tomorrow might be the day everyone comes back!", and the real reason was just because she didn't want to find out if something bad had happened to her boyfriend and other friends.

So, she might be saying it a bit thoughtlessly, and the "Humans can't do that?" thing has been used a lot in just a few strips, but she's 100% in the right and she's getting the plot up to speed. The fact that she isn't a main character, a PC, or even an adventurer doesn't do anything to all that.

[Lunaya]

I am grateful to Celia for moving the plot along and telling Haley what the rest of us have been wanting to scream at her for quite some time: "Get out of the city, you extremely likable twit!" :smallamused:

However, Celia is the type of girl who used to make my life Hell in high school. So perfect in every way that the rest of us didn't stand a chance, and just friendly enough that you couldn't hate her without feeling guilty. Granted, this is no fault of Celia's, but it's enough to keep me from fully embracing her. I was definitely feeling Haley's pain on page 531.

[wheelman]

Hard to believe that a girl who's studying law knows nothing of humans.

C'mon...there is no connection of any kind between lawyers and humans.

[Edmundog]

I hate to say it she was getting a little on my nerves. What has she done? Failed to guard a dungeon, and drop out of college. But, at least because of her PLOT IS MOVING AGAIN! Maybe we can get somewhere again. 31 comics and we really haven't moved further than azure city, and a boat somewhere.

That's further than they moved in the first 120 comics...

[Various]

Its a little annoying anytime one of the characters goes on one of these rants. Several times throughout the series various characters have done the same thing; breaking it down in a blunt way and is in the right. Roy does it a lot.

I like the story, I just don't like it when these situations come up. If it was just one character doing it then it would be fine but when several characters go into the same type of speech, it breaks the character. I mean it becomes obvious that this is the voice of the author speaking at that moment and not the voice of the character. If that makes sense.

Its the only real complaint I've ever had about this story.

[brilliantlight]

Second'd. That seems the primary underlying cause for the Ceilia haters - that Miko and Roy would have had a better romance (??).

I find Ceilia's absent-mindedness a pun in and of itself: An Air-head Air Elemental :D. She also seems to have a mindset people can't seem to grasp. It's D&D - People dying isn't a source of huge tragedy as much as it is a hassle finding a healer and material components. That is something about Ceilia's no-nonsense business approach that Haley (nor some RL people) can grasp.

I myself have debated about removing resurrection spells (or any of their like) entirely from games I run (or at the very least, limit them greatly) - as it removes some good RP opportunities.


I think a Miko and Roy romance as being quite a bad idea for Roy. The last thing he needed was a self absorbed holier then thou bitch. However, I think she was good for the story as a kind of foil for the party. I would like to see her back as a repentant paladin but not for too long.

I agree Celia dealt with Haley the right way. To be fair Haley is probably becoming burned out.

[Zeitgeist]

If he doesn't, what was the point, storywise, of him trying to?

True. Maybe he'll get to talk when he has something more cryptic to say. I mean Eugene obviously knew the rules, whatever they may be. Perhaps Roy has to be willing to follow them to speak. But that's another topic. Celia has covered it for now, nevertheless.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't like her attitude.

Well, there's that, but more importantly, she is right.

If you start disliking people for telling you inconvenient truths, you should call Dilbert and apply for pointy-haired manager.

[Alfryd]

Second'd. That seems the primary underlying cause for the Ceilia haters - that Miko and Roy would have had a better romance (??).
Well, while I have often fervently prayed for her death in the abstract sense, I don't exactly hate Celia. I recognise that she's an intelligent, attractive, and reasonably likable sentient humanoid that Roy gets along with quite famously- (particularly by comparison with women who've tried to disembowel him on more than one occasion.) But were people under the strange impression she's somehow perfect?

I dunno. If I were to imagine some alternate universe where Miko had, say, Elan's luck, and were psychologically capable of interacting with people in close quarters without violence for more than 5-10 minutes, then I would have said that, well... Celia has a lot more options. I mean, she actually has social skills, and aren't Sylphs pretty long-lived? However, given current trajectory Miko will probably either be eaten by the Snarl or spend the remainder of her natural life bitter, loveless, and alone, having irreperably alienated everyone she cares for. You can argue that's what she deserves, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

To be honest though, this whole thing reminds me more of the O-chul episode (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html), where it was made perfectly clear that readers will react vociferously to any substantial criticism of their favoured protagonists, regardless of coherence, merit, and weight, because it's inconceivable People You Like Can Be Wrong. (These same readers, of course, had nothing so strident to say regarding Elan's collossal ****-up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0421.html).)

[Roderick_BR]

No. I'm having too much fun seeing her annoying Haley :smallsmile:
Funny enough, I think that Roy's sarcasm rubbed a bit on her. Or maybe that's a side effect of getting Lawyer levels.

[Charles Phipps]

Well, there's that, but more importantly, she is right.

If you start disliking people for telling you inconvenient truths, you should call Dilbert and apply for pointy-haired manager.

Actually, I don't think her advice was obvious at all.

I think Haley should have stayed.

[Rutee]

If he doesn't, what was the point, storywise, of him trying to?

Watching his reactions to the events unfold around Haley.

[Behold_the_Void]

Actually, I don't think her advice was obvious at all.

I think Haley should have stayed.

Why? The plot cannot advance so long as Haley remains in Azure City. Depending on Vaarsuvius's tenacity (which is, as proven, considerable), s/he is scrying them constantly. Within a few days of her stepping out of Azure City's Cloister, the party can reunite and actually get something done.

So long as she's there, the party is divided and we're looking at more months (game time, lord knows how long it'd take in comic time) of them just sitting around doing nothing.

Anyway, I'm rather fond of Celia. She's a good character.

[Corwin Weber]

Actually, I don't think her advice was obvious at all.

I think Haley should have stayed.

To accomplish.... what again exactly?

She isn't even making a dent in Xykon's little empire. With her gone her successor might be able to unify the various resistance groups and actually get more accomplished. With her out of the city she can also actually start on defeating Xykon overall.

[Paragon Badger]

Meh. Don't understand how a paragon between Celia and Haley can be started.
Celia is a smart and intelligent girl (she is a lawman, not the easier work to do well, and she does it well). In a matter of a few hours, she goes from the confort of her bed to a new, hard and complex reality, and manage to find the most logical and practical of line of action.
It's easy to do, guys. Everyone of us, even people not able to take a law course (I couldn't...). She never had to live the problem one day after the other, having to work several risks at once!
We know that Haley had to search for food, fight with undead and goblin while having disputes with other groups of human (that you can't just kill and shut the problem), meet blackmarket sellers, free slaver, chief a bunch of low level NPC. And Belkar. Yes, definitively managing Belkar, and you know how it's. All while waiting to be crushed by a Maximized Delayed Fireball by a lich, with the constant thought of your beloved being dead.

On the other hand Celia had to... pass tests... and manage her mother. Wow. Epic.

Did anyone ever noticed that when you hear a story, or see a film, where someone is troubled over his head, you always have a good and solid solution that work in a minute? Easy to think about, while grinding some pop-corn. Harder, if you are dodging bullets, or you daughter is in a dead-trap.

So please, stop telling that Celia is the smartest and bravest of heroine. Is just a smart person, with a fresh mind, magical perception and the opportunity to take actions without fearing any conseguence (she can always go home in a puff, doesn't her?). No one noticed how much distant is from the bad reality? While everyone is trying to survive, she is trouble by (gosh!) a bad tailored shirt! Poor girl!
And allow me, she is caring only of Roy, that is quite selfish when you think at a thousand of slaves and resistance. Bonus XP to Haley, this side.

Last thing: it's easy to outsmart a person that was sleeping until a minute before.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

So what Haley's been having a hard time lately. Life comes at you fast. If you can't deal with a problem when it matters most, you die.

And how come Roy's death doesn't count as troubling for Celia? I'd say that's a bit more than a bad tailored suit! Even 5 seconds after it was abruptly broken to her by Belkar, she remained calm and collected.

Edit: Compare/contrast a hypothetical scenario if Belkar had just told Haley that Elan was dead, in the very same fashion. How would she have handled it?

Not well.

[LordSintax]

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."

amen to that, sir/madam ( if i knew more about badger physiology, this wouldnt be an issue.)


"And how come Roy's death doesn't count as troubling for Celia? I'd say that's a bit more than a bad tailored suit! Even 5 seconds after it was abruptly broken to her by Belkar, she remained calm and collected.


because they're living in a world where death isn't even semi-permanent.

I like Celia. she serves as a good "recurring" and the fact that she just assumes everyone has the same senses she does is kinda funny

"You mean you cant sense abjuration by how your teeth tingle? what kind of lame senses are you using, anyway?"

[Jayngfet]

:smallsigh: ...this early...*ducks, barrel roll's for cover*, oh man, this could get ugly and I mean miko ugly provided she stays long enough...


...dammit, we just averted this crisis with therkla and tsukiko

celia does what Is necessary, nothing more, nothing less she's like bernabus that way, "I'm not the one roping you into this, it would've happened or you would've died, I'm just the one charged with braking you the bad news"

If she wasn't there, all it takes to finish haley off is

A. time, only a few of these free'd slaves were barley compitent, the resistance is split in three, anyone dead starts fighting for the other side

or

B. Xykon or redcloak caring enough to send in more than the(admitedly powerful, but ether of the two could manage the same, if not more than what she's done) expendable Azurite and the wight squad, a high level cleric that won't stop to recruit or a guy that slaughtered the top half or the saphire guard without(he wont need to anyway) blinking

she has 2 choices die for a lost cause or take a few strong hands and live to fight another day

saving AC is all well and good but THERE'S A GOD BLOODY KILLING MONSTROCITY BORN FROM THE HATE OF ALL POWERFUL BEINGS STARTING TO CREEP OUT OF ITS CAGE WHEN THE LOCKS, WICH I REMIND YOU WILL DESTROY HUGE CHUNKS OF LAND IF NOT HANDLED PROPERLY, LOOSE OR BREAK, AND WHEN IT DOES NEITHER MAN NOR GOD CAN STOP IT


personally I'd leave and try to beat the big bat to the next cosmic keystone after rezzing the one guy left with the knowledge of its location.:smallmad:

[NikkTheTrick]

Actually, I don't think her advice was obvious at all.

I think Haley should have stayed.
Stayed and do what?

Lead a fraction of fragmented resistance movement that is so weak that they cannot get attention of Xykon and in the offchance they do, she gets herself and Belkar killed with Roy falling into Team Evil hands, leaving remnants of OotS (now at 50% strength) not knowing where the last gate is?

Sure, Haley's actions up to date were noble, but they were not the best she could do for greater good. To quote a French officer commenting on the charge of the Light Brigade "This is magnificent, but this is not war." Fate of the world is above fate of a few Asurians.

To put it bluntly, the world is in such a danger and Heley, Belkar and Roy are such assets to its survival that Haley does not have a right to lose her life, let alone Belkar's life or Roy's chance at resurrection.

[SPoD]

Charles?

Your Miko is dead, son.

She's not coming back. She had a pitch-perfect send off scene that encapsulated everything her character was about (really about, not what many wish it was about), she is not going to reappear and cozy up to Roy.

And to answer your question, no, Celia is not annoying me at all. I'm enjoying watching Haley interact with another woman, especially when that woman doesn't roll over for her. Haley's been The Chick for far too long (Vaarsuvius doesn't count). If nothing else, teaming her with Celia allows us to see that certain aspects of Haley's personality (i.e. hiding behind excuses for things) aren't simply the result of her being female, because Celia acts differently.

[Alfryd]

While any future Roy-up-cozying's likelihood is somewhere betwixt slim and negligible, I'm going to say Miko is coming back (unless Rich has spontaneously decided to rewrite much of the plot) -because he said so himself.

In Paladin Blues, that is.
The odds of plausible recurrence have also much improved of late, given the presence of rival resistance groups, happy to share Miko's paranoid scapegoat fantasies. (How they'd find her body, a level-9-cleric, means and motive to raise her is another matter, but then, Rich has never been one to allow wee things like 'overwhelming odds' or those so-called 'rules' to interfere with plot heading.)

I would say, while Miko has always had her captivating moments, the prospect is mixed with personal dread. It would probably be less trouble for all concerned if she could just... retire to paint frescoes for the Harmonium, or something. Y'know- find herself an outlet.

[SPoD]

While any future Roy-up-cozying's likelihood is somewhere betwixt slim and negligible, I'm going to say Miko is coming back (unless Rich has spontaneously decided to rewrite much of the plot) -because he said so himself.

Ummm, Rich specifically says that he already rewrote much of the plot revolving around Miko on the same page as the quote to which you are referring. He says that before she was introduced, she was a character that he planned to have reappear for the rest of the plot, and he says she was a character that he planned to do light romantic comedy with. Then, he says that he changed his plans for Miko. So if he did change his plans for Miko to reappear after her death, he did so before she ever stepped into the strip.

In other words, that quote means nothing, because Rich ADMITS that he already changed his plans AFTER the point in time which that quote is referencing. He doesn't need to rewrite anything now in order to have her not appear if he already rewrote it back then. For all we know, the original plan never had her dying at all.

[Alfryd]

Yes, Rich had indeed changed the plot in certain not-insignificant respects by that point- the difference being that he hadn't publically stated "X Is Going To Happen" in writing beforehand. I presume he would not make that kind of statement unless there were serious barriers to untangling Miko's involvement by then.

If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But unless Miko isn't back by, say- strip 750?- I will continue to assume that she is indeed a recurrent character, because the author said so.

[Morty]

Somehow, I have a feeling that Charles opposes Haley leaving AC mainly because it means Roy'll get ressurected.
But whatever the reasons, I hardly see any merit in staying in the town where all you can do is to fight two other resistance groups for supplies while trying to not get slaughtered by hobgoblin army that outnumbers you 200:1(maybe more by now) and is led by epic sorecer and high-level priest.

[Yoritomo Himeko]

To accomplish.... what again exactly?

She isn't even making a dent in Xykon's little empire. With her gone her successor might be able to unify the various resistance groups and actually get more accomplished. With her out of the city she can also actually start on defeating Xykon overall.

Um, there's just one problem with that. Haley's resistance is Pro-Hinjo, and one of the others is Anti-Hinjo. The two other groups were fighting each other because of Hinjo, not the OOTS. This isn't going to change just because Haley is leaving the Resistance for a while.

The best that could happen is that they join with the other Pro-Hinjo group.

[Eran of Arcadia]

I have to say, it really doesn't concern me that Celia and Haley both have strong and weak points, nor that Haley has been making bad decisions up to this point. People have, y'know, flaws.

But Miko? Bad news all around.

[teratorn]

Story catalyst? More like the Voice of the DM.

So, you're saying Roy is dating the DM?

[BingHawk]

I love Celia even more now!
She gave Haley exactly what she needed. A verbal swift boot to the rear. Celia recognized the loss of Roy as a challenge to be faced, not an obstacle to avoid. She is going to bring Roy back and sitting there crying about it isn't going to do any good. Like she said he is still only 1 spell away the only thing that has changed is the spell.
Sure maybe she is administering a little tough love, but that's what is called for at the moment. It's nice to see a female charecter break the mold, saddle up and ride off to the rescue. So I say Go Celia, get your man back.....

[Grod_The_Giant]

No, not at all. I think she's being a refreshing breath of fresh air, and kicking some sense into Haley (who has been proven to have lots of trouble dealing with personal issues). Haley herself said that the presence of the remaining OOTS members has been detrimental to the resistance, and the fact is that the team being reunited would be more effective then anything two members could do with 200 commoners.

[pendell]

Ummm, Rich specifically says that he already rewrote much of the plot revolving around Miko on the same page as the quote to which you are referring. He says that before she was introduced, she was a character that he planned to have reappear for the rest of the plot, and he says she was a character that he planned to do light romantic comedy with. Then, he says that he changed his plans for Miko. So if he did change his plans for Miko to reappear after her death, he did so before she ever stepped into the strip.

In other words, that quote means nothing, because Rich ADMITS that he already changed his plans AFTER the point in time which that quote is referencing. He doesn't need to rewrite anything now in order to have her not appear if he already rewrote it back then. For all we know, the original plan never had her dying at all.


Very interesting that you say that.

I direct your attention to this quote in particular:



she was a character that he planned to have reappear for the rest of the plot, and he says she was a character that he planned to do light romantic comedy with.


Was he referring to Miko then ... or Celia now?

Cause it looks to me like Celia has slid into the 'light romantic on-again off-again' slot previously intended for Miko. But Miko's character progression precluded that possibility. Accordingly, she has left the strip and her place is being filled by Celia ... who, being a sprite, can flit in and out at will, acting as a plot hammer when needed and then be taken away just as quickly.

Which is funny, because I honestly felt like Celia was channelling Miko in this last strip. The same upfront attitude, sarcasm, annoying personality, but without the stick-up-the-back and rigid personality that broke up Roy/Miko.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Behold_the_Void]

So, you're saying Roy is dating the DM?

Actually I had that thought myself when it was mentioned. It wouldn't be completely implausible.

[Laurentio]

Ok, I've to admit that Haley is quite short-sighted in regard of leading the resistance. She is accomplishing nothing, and risking a lot. Obviously, you all have to admit that wisdow is a drop char for a rogue. And balancing immediate goals with remote odds is a matter of wisdow much more than intelligence.

So, Celia is right once more (never told she is not), and it's even clearer that she can't be otherwise. At least half a dozen people here went to the same end, so it doesn't require genius.

What was we debating, anyway? Oh, Celia being annoying. Yes, a lot. Not a ounce of empathy from her, just logic and a fresh mind (while Haley is really tired, Belkar don't care and the rest of the resistance is probably fighting for commitment to the country and the duty).

I don't see anyone disagreeing on these points, so I call even and close my part with "Celia is an annoying NPC, really useful for the unblock the plot" (thrice, this far: dungeon exit, trial, and now). Can we call her "All-Use Key to the Main Plot"?

I see only one reason I enjoy her presence. Boobs.

[Faustling]

i guess i am kinda a traditional person. A girl making love with a man she only see twice before is too much for me.

Well, Roy is apperantly just as slutty so it shouldn't matter to much. :smallamused:

[Alfryd]

Which is funny, because I honestly felt like Celia was channelling Miko in this last strip. The same upfront attitude, sarcasm, annoying personality, but without the stick-up-the-back and rigid personality that broke up Roy/Miko.
Close, but no cigar. Miko does not have a sufficient grasp of humour and tact to safely attempt sarcasm, and tends instead to irritate people through ineptitude, clumsy naivete, and culture shock. With Celia, it's 100% deliberate.

To be honest, though, I didn't find her especially grating. I mean, it's not like she's wrong.

[VetMichael]

Since Hayley was only leading the resistance until the rest of OOTS comes back,and since she was unaware of the Cloister spell, I think Celia's totally within her rights to kick Hayley into gear.


I see it this way: Hayley and Belkar fell off the boat in the middle of the ocean. Until Celia showed up, Hayley was just "treading water" at best. Now, at least, Hayley has a direction to head toward to find salvation.


'sides, Celia ROCKS

[RTGoodman]

So, you're saying Roy is dating the DM?

Exactly! How else do you think his player got to be the Lord of Azure City*? And got some ridiculous starmetal sword when everyone else way below Wealth By Level?

These kind of things happen when significant others play in groups (e.g., my current DM who gave his girlfriend an advanced panther for free in a 1st level campaign - sorry Barbarian, the Fighter's pet just took care of your work for you!).



*In my mind, after Roy died his theoretical player took over playing Hinjo until the rest of the OotS can resurrect his real character.

[Charles Phipps]

Charles?

Your Miko is dead, son.

She's not coming back. She had a pitch-perfect send off scene that encapsulated everything her character was about (really about, not what many wish it was about), she is not going to reappear and cozy up to Roy.


Uh huh.

Well I made my opinion that I thought it was brave for Roy not to come back and it devalues his character to have him return (I personally am not completely sure that we eventually won't have some shock that Roy can't come back as anything but a ghost).

However, Miko's story is definitely not finished as far as I'm concerned.


Um, there's just one problem with that. Haley's resistance is Pro-Hinjo, and one of the others is Anti-Hinjo. The two other groups were fighting each other because of Hinjo, not the OOTS. This isn't going to change just because Haley is leaving the Resistance for a while.

The best that could happen is that they join with the other Pro-Hinjo group.

I definitely think that Haley COULD make a dent in Xykon's Empire. Because, let's face it, those slaves she freed owe their lives to Haley. Saying that they're unimportant because of Roy is a sign that Celia deserves to have some Evil Adventurers pop in the Elemental Plane of Air and slay her when she's there (operating by the rules that they can't be permanently slain anywhere else).

There's a thousand different ways they could have reunited the party, Celia lecturing Haley just makes me pray to the Snarl that she'll get what's coming to her.

Preferably at the hands of Thog's ax.

[calebcom]

Celia is someone, who like roy, thinks about things. Ignorance |= stupidity. though it can be annoying, it's refreshing.

I'm imagining roy and miko together.

"Miko honey, I'm making toast."

"What are you doinG!!!!?"

"Buttering the toast?"

"You put the crumbs in the butter!!! YOU MUST DIE EVIL DOER!!!"




Hell, they wouldn't even get toast. Have you ever tried to bump uglies in a dirty ditch filled with jagged rocks? Not fun in my imaginings. Not to mention surviving on mold and lichen.



Celia is what we call a PLOT TOOL. Used to pry PC's into action.

[Squark]

I agree with the theory of Celia taking Miko's place as far as romance goes...

Miko isn't coming back:

1.464 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html). Miko has accepted what's going to happen to her. She's changed. She's accepted she is going to spend the rest of existance in the afterlife. Bringing her back cheapens the charecter, not to mention goes against the basic concept of why people aren't brought back from the dead on a regular basis in settings, "They don't want to come back." Roy, on the other hand, does, and has shown no sign of accepting the fact he is dead.
2.465 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html). This is something multiple writers have done. It's there way of saying, "Not in my comic" So, she isn't coming back as an undead.

The only way she's coming back is in a, "What happened to X" section at the end of the comic.


Meanwhile, Celia has shown herself to be a very useful plot mover.

[Cruiser1]

Celia reminds me of my significant other. Since I said current SO instead of ex SO, that should indicate how much I like Celia! :smallwink: Celia's my favorite character in OOTS, where it's always enjoyable to read the strips she's graces with her presence. The best people in your life don't always give you what you want, but rather give you what you need. I hope she and Roy get married at the end on the comic, and go on to have lots of intelligent and sarcastic half-fey children. :smallbiggrin:

Celia rocks so much! Go Celia! :smallsmile:

[VetMichael]

Uh huh.

However, Miko's story is definitely not finished as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry to hear that. I know that many readers are stuck in denial about she-who-shall-not-be-named (s.w.s.n.b.n.):

The stages Kubler-Ross identified are:

* Denial (this isn't happening to me!)
* Anger (why is this happening to me?)
* Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)
* Depression (I don't care anymore)
* Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)

See, somehow, we who have celebrated accepted Miko's fitting tragic end will have to help those of you who are stuck in the first stage of mourning to move on. Should we have a party wake? Should we sit Shivah with you? Please, help us help you by telling us how we can help you move on with your lives.



BTW, any equating of S.W.S.N.B.N and Celia is spurious, scandalous, reprehensible, and libelous (with the possible exception of saying "Well, Celia is much better than M!k0 because....") and I will plug my ears and say LALALALALALALLAACAN'THEARYOULALALALALALALALALALALA until you stop.

[Charles Phipps]

Roy had a fitting end too.

He died the way he lived.

Having no luck.

[VetMichael]

Roy had a fitting end too.

He died the way he lived.

Having no luck.




LOL, Absolutely - he's the OOTS universe's Shleprock (http://www.topthat.net/webrock/spinoffs/pebbles1.htm)

[Jayngfet]

Roy had a fitting end too.

He died the way he lived.

Having no luck.

pardon any accidental rudeness but...

...how is this news?

[The Extinguisher]

Roy had a fitting end too.

He died the way he lived.

Having no luck.

The differenece being that Miko was a best a Knight Templar/Inspector Javert crossbreed that landed her squarely in minor antagonist, and Roy is the hero of the story. Without him, there is no comic. Without Miko, there's just a lot less arguements.

[vivi]

Celia is someone, who like roy, thinks about things. Ignorance |= stupidity. though it can be annoying, it's refreshing.

I'm imagining roy and miko together.

"Miko honey, I'm making toast."

"What are you doinG!!!!?"

"Buttering the toast?"

"You put the crumbs in the butter!!! YOU MUST DIE EVIL DOER!!!"


Personally I like this more:

"Honey were out of milk!"

"Thats a clear sign from the gods that you must DIE!"

Slash Slash Slash

[Kaerou]

I like her.

What she's doing makes sense.

Without Celia, Haley would have hung around fretting till she eventually got killed.

[VetMichael]

See, herein we have a fundamental difference between s.w.s.n.b.n. (See my previous post) and Celia:


s.w.s.n.b.n.: Annoying AND useless

Celia: Annoying BUT useful!

[Charles Phipps]

The differenece being that Miko was a best a Knight Templar/Inspector Javert crossbreed that landed her squarely in minor antagonist, and Roy is the hero of the story. Without him, there is no comic. Without Miko, there's just a lot less arguements.

I think that definitely the story could continue on without Roy. But I always assumed that Roy would take on the Obi Wan Kenobi roll and guide them from the great beyond.

I like OOTS in part because it goes in unexpected directions.

[Behold_the_Void]

I think that definitely the story could continue on without Roy. But I always assumed that Roy would take on the Obi Wan Kenobi roll and guide them from the great beyond.

I like OOTS in part because it goes in unexpected directions.

Are we reading the same comic? Roy's the glue that holds the Order together. They need him because he's the only real leader they have. Haley makes for a great lieutenant, but she's too emotional and unstable to be a good leader. Durkon is a solid member and might make a good leader, but he lacks the people skills to motivate people in the right direction. Vaarsuvius is extremely intelligent, but lacks both the people skills and the appropriate worldview to lead the party. Elan and Belkar... do I even need to say?

Roy may be sarcastic and overly serious, but he's good at making the right choices when they need to be made. He's not the greatest and he knows that, but he keeps trying - remember what the archon said? Roy has the qualities of a leader. Sure, he could be better, but nobody's perfect.

They need Roy. Without him, the Order of the Stick crumbles.

[Caractacus]

At last this thread is getting back to the point. Most of us agree:

1) Celia is moving the plot and

2) Haley was unable/unwilling to move without help

but what only about half of us think is that she is rude. If someone spoke to me that way, I would only tolerate that person from then on. I couldn't be their friend.

Now, the response that may come to this is that she's not from the Prime Material and therefore we need to allow for cultural differences. True enough, But the rest of her character is entirely human in its behaviour, it is only actually her knowledge of human abilities that seems to be below par.

I think she's rude. She's right but rude. The being right is important; however, the being rude could have been massively counter-productive with almost anyone but Haley. For Belkar, she could have been XP if his mood had been unreceptive at that moment.

So, I am glad she's here to get things going, but, like SWMNBN, she is great for what she brings to the story, not because she is necessarily a wonderful personality all of the time for all people.

[Alfryd]

s.w.s.n.b.n.: Annoying AND useless
Miko is many things, but useless isn't one of them. (Catastrophic, maybe.)

Miko came up with a plan for fireballing the Ogres in a cluster. Miko offered to heal Roy. Miko ensured people were evacuated from the Inn in a calm and timely fashion. And then Miko risked her life to extract any innocents trapped behind. Miko paid for the Order's accomodations. Miko paid for the Order's rather extravagant service expenses. Miko paid for the Order destroying the whole damn Inn. (Indirectly, but paid nonetheless.)
Miko manages to single-handedly best the entire order twice over, not to mention Redcloak and his 16+ CoDzilla levels. Useless, I'm sure.

Please. Credit where it's due.


Miko was a best a Knight Templar...
That seems a little unfair on the Sapphire Guard, (discounting the SoD episode, as indeed I must, given Rich clearly decided to pay no attention whatsoever to the 'Paladin' class description for this purpose.)

...Inspector Javert crossbreed that landed her squarely in minor antagonist...
Right, minor antagonist. Because it's not as if she's had a crucial impact on the shape of the entire plot since her frst unveiling, or proven a major obstacle to circumvent, or significantly frustrated the Order's goals.

Incidentally, this was sarcasm.

[Kish]

I think she's rude. She's right but rude. The being right is important; however, the being rude could have been massively counter-productive with almost anyone but Haley. For Belkar, she could have been XP if his mood had been unreceptive at that moment.
*cough* Mark of Justice. I won't get into the pointlessness of even trying to be polite to Belkar, because I know that's a whole other debate, but he's not currently in a position to respond with violence, much as he might like to.

Beyond that, I doubt Celia cares much about being Haley's friend.


That seems a little unfair on the Sapphire Guard, (discounting the SoD episode, as indeed I must, given Rich clearly decided to pay no attention whatsoever to the 'Paladin' class description for this purpose.)
Not to put too fine a point on it, Alfryd, if the Player's Handbook contradicts something in an OotS book, for discussion of OotS, disregarding the OotS book and not the Player's Handbook is not something you must do. Or something you should do. The Sapphire Guard has done what they've done. Reconcile it however you like, but saying "no they didn't do that" is not an appropriate way.

[Alfryd]

The Sapphire Guard has done what they've done.
Then I must conclude that they are not Paladins. I'm sorry, but if Rich decided the premise was that 2 + 2 = 7, I'm still gonna ahead and disregard that. This isn't some (relatively) minor technicality like Weather Control or the number of passengers per teleport spell, this is a pretty direct and savage violation of everything the class is supposed to stand for. I am not buying it. (Beside which- the sapphire guard's conduct in SoD also contradicts Rich's own standards of Good/Evil and honourable conduct as depicted within the strip at large.)

[Caractacus]

Beyond that, I doubt Celia cares much about being Haley's friend.

My point exactly. She's rude and annoying. Not my friend.

But that doesn't have any impact on her usefulness or relevance. For that she's fine because she had Haley to deal with.

[The Extinguisher]

That seems a little unfair on the Sapphire Guard, (discounting the SoD episode, as indeed I must, given Rich clearly decided to pay no attention whatsoever to the 'Paladin' class description for this purpose.)

I didn't say anything about the rest of the Sapphire Guard. Just Miko. She embodies the Knight Templar in pratically every way.


Right, minor antagonist. Because it's not as if she's had a crucial impact on the shape of the entire plot since her frst unveiling, or proven a major obstacle to circumvent, or significantly frustrated the Order's goals.

Incidentally, this was sarcasm.

Well she's no major antagonist, like Team Evil. I'd be willing to call her a secondary antagonist like The Linear Guild, but that would proabably be pushing it.

[BlackStaticWolf]

C'mon...there is no connection of any kind between lawyers and humans.

Yes there is. We feed on you for sustenance. That's a connection.

[Edmundog]

Then I must conclude that they are not Paladins. I'm sorry, but if Rich decided the premise was that 2 + 2 = 7, I'm still gonna ahead and disregard that.

Look, they ARE paladins. You know how I know? Because they are. If OotS ignores D&D rules or whatever, than those rules don't exist in the OotS world. If OotS contradicts D&D, then for purposes of the comic, D&D is wrong.

[Charles Phipps]

Look, they ARE paladins. You know how I know? Because they are. If OotS ignores D&D rules or whatever, than those rules don't exist in the OotS world. If OotS contradicts D&D, then for purposes of the comic, D&D is wrong.

Rich has shown a decidedly more benevolent shade of them and they also strip Miko of her Paladinhood. So, we'll probably see the truth of the issue soon enough.

[teratorn]

Bad bad forumers...


Rich has shown a decidedly more benevolent shade of them and they also strip Miko of her Paladinhood. So, we'll probably see the truth of the issue soon enough.

How did a thread about Celia get hijacked by Miko?

The only way to keep this on topic is to dicuss on how her butt compares with Haley's big butt and Celia's skinny one. Is Miko's the perfect butt? Does her class feature have anything to do with it?

[Roderick_BR]

I think that definitely the story could continue on without Roy. But I always assumed that Roy would take on the Obi Wan Kenobi roll and guide them from the great beyond.

I like OOTS in part because it goes in unexpected directions.
Yes, the story could go without him without (much) problems. Thing is, his companions won't let things go like that.
Unlike s.w.s.n.b.n, that they'll just let resting.

[Demented]

The only way to keep this on topic is to dicuss on how her butt compares with Haley's big butt and Celia's skinny one. Is Miko's the perfect butt? Does her class feature have anything to do with it?

Miko's IS the perfect butt.
How do I know this?

I looked into the future and saw there to be a "Frequently Rebuffed Witticisms" thread that stated, through advanced mathematical formulae involving intent-driven alignment and empty milk cartons, that Miko has a butt beyond reproach. At least, it is pre-bisection.

However, this did not go unchallenged. There also happened to be a significant dissenting opinion that stated, with the aid of far-state non-linear algorithms carried out via a modified Folding@Home client, that Celia's butt is considered more appealing by all sane and rational beings.

Then there was the neutral third party, led by Chuck Norris himself, claiming that Haley's butt is bigger.

[BooTheHamster]

Celia is awesome.

No nonsense chicks are the way to go. They kick you in the rear and get you off your butt. This isn't to disparage Haley in any way, as she's one of my favorite characters, but sometimes you just need someone to tell you the cold hard truth, especially in this context, which, incidentally, is what good friends should do. I mean, you can try to do it tactfully all you want but as overwhelming as the situation is, it's unlikely to do any good. Celia wasn't being rude, just blunt, which is the best way to snap Haley out of her self-pity.

"A real friend stabs you in the front."

Plus she's funny, witty, sarcastic, intelligent, etc... A perfect fit for Roy.

Miko got annoying. She made you hate her from the moment she showed up. If you want someone who was ignorant and stupid, that's Miko all over.

[Jayngfet]

Bad bad forumers...



How did a thread about Celia get hijacked by Miko?

The only way to keep this on topic is to dicuss on how her butt compares with Haley's big butt and Celia's skinny one. Is Miko's the perfect butt? Does her class feature have anything to do with it?

we'll let the stick be the judge of that butt

[Edmundog]

The only way to keep this on topic is to dicuss on how her butt compares with Haley's big butt and Celia's skinny one. Is Miko's the perfect butt? Does her class feature have anything to do with it?

Miko's butt looks good at first, but on closer examination, it has many unappealing qualities, and she only believes it to be perfect?

[Alfryd]

Look, they ARE paladins. You know how I know? Because they are. If OotS ignores D&D rules or whatever, than those rules don't exist in the OotS world. If OotS contradicts D&D, then for purposes of the comic, D&D is wrong.
That would be true, except that everywhere else in the comic Rich has had paladins behaving in entirely conventionally paladin-ish ways. Real sticklers for fair warning, due quarter, protection of innocents and so on and so forth. And Rich decides that has all become suddenyl irrelevant so that he can purport to make a point about 'good people doing bad things to bad people for bad reasons'. I'm sorry, but if the only reason these are to be taken as 'good people' is because they're Paladins, then there are standards to uphold here.

I'd be willing to call her a secondary antagonist like The Linear Guild, but that would proabably be pushing it.
When, exactly, have the Linear Guild had a major influence on plot direction, proven major obstacles to circumvent, or significantly frustrated the Order's goals? They've been minor detours, comic relief, or artificial vehicles for character development. Hell, they've practically done more good than harm as far as the Order are concerned: The whole Cliffport episode restored Haley's speech, and ensured the Order were present before the siege. This don't say much for their antagonist cred.

Just Miko. She embodies the Knight Templar in practically every way.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.KnightTemplar
Usually their primary step is to get rid of that pesky "free will" thing that is the cause of crime and evil. To many Knight Templar types, All Crimes Are Equal, and the lightest offenses are met with full imprisonment, death or brainwashing.
Where does Miko do this, exactly?

How did a thread about Celia get hijacked by Miko?
...You must be new here.

Miko's IS the perfect butt.
How do I know this?
Cha 16, and a process of elimination.

[FujinAkari]

That would be true, except that everywhere else in the comic Rich has had paladins behaving in entirely conventionally paladin-ish ways. Real sticklers for fair warning, due quarter, protection of innocents and so on and so forth. And Rich decides that has all become suddenyl irrelevant so that he can purport to make a point about 'good people doing bad things to bad people for bad reasons'. I'm sorry, but if the only reason these are to be taken as 'good people' is because they're Paladins, then there are standards to uphold here.

Look, Alfryd, I respect you, but you are just going to have to accept that Paladins are allowed to save the world. Yes, even when stopping the world from being destroyed involves actions that we'd all prefer not to have to happen.

It is very obviously a special circumstance and, from your own words, not something they NORMALLY do. Nonetheless, it -is- something that happened, and sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "NO!" repeatedly won't change that :P.

[Edmundog]

Usually their primary step is to get rid of that pesky "free will" thing that is the cause of crime and evil. To many Knight Templar types, All Crimes Are Equal, and the lightest offenses are met with full imprisonment, death or brainwashing.
Where does Miko do this, exactly?


"Usually". "To many".

So there you go. However, it also says on that link...

It's important to note that the Knights Templar believe fully that they are the good guys, and their opponents are not. Simply generally invoking goodness and decency will have no effect, save for possibly making the Knight Templar hate your guts. After all, he is certain his cause is just and noble, and anyone who stands in the way is a criminal in his eyes.

And...

they get blinded by themselves and their ideals

And that's Miko all over.

[ShellBullet]

When, exactly, have the Linear Guild had a major influence on plot direction, proven major obstacles to circumvent, or significantly frustrated the Order's goals? They've been minor detours, comic relief, or artificial vehicles for character development. Hell, they've practically done more good than harm as far as the Order are concerned: The whole Cliffport episode restored Haley's speech, and ensured the Order were present before the siege. This don't say much for their antagonist cred.

But those incidents had major influence on plot.

Without linear guild Oots wouldn't been in Azura city battle nor Haley wouldn't gotten her speech so fast without Linear guild.

[The gF]

I'm seeing some people say they want Haley to stay in Azure City.

Okay, fine, then the comic spirals and dies because nothing ever happens.

Screw that.

The comic's not gonna go the way you want it to, and I'll tell you what's more-- Miko's never coming back, and she'd never have gotten with Roy in the first place.

a) It was pretty much put to rest when Tsukiko found her corpse. A major purpose of her finding it, while it was funny in terms of situational irony ("Probably wouldn't be that powerful anyway."), was for Rich to say, "Sorry, Miko fans, this really is the end for her."

b) She's a zoophiliac. Go look at page 373. First she molests a cockroach, then she ends up screaming, "Push harder, loyal steed! Harder!"

[FujinAkari]

a) It was pretty much put to rest when Tsukiko found her corpse. A major purpose of her finding it, while it was funny in terms of situational irony ("Probably wouldn't be that powerful anyway."), was for Rich to say, "Sorry, Miko fans, this really is the end for her."

I disagree. If Miko wasn't meant to affect the story anymore, I think Rich would have left her final moment -being- her very powerful death scene. The only other person that has been killed and been featured as a corpse is Roy. All the other characters that have died (Chief of Cliffport PD, Samantha, Trigak) were never seen again once they died.

The only real exception that I can think of is Shojo, who did get a single comic where they attempted to resurrect him, but that seems to be to fill in a plot-hole.

I won't really be surprised if Miko never comes back, but I certainly see much more significance in her corpse being revisited than your interpretation allows.

[Paragon Badger]

we'll let the stick be the judge of that butt

We still haven't discovered if it was put in there by someone, or it just grew there when she took Paladin levels. :smalltongue:

Besides, Miko's a hardass.

That just screams 'pent-up sexual frustration that's released in the copier room one night after overtime work on the statistical analysis projections.'

...:smallredface:

[The gF]

You raise some excellent points there. But not you, Badger. Because I estimate Miko's level at near to Xykon's which means that when she finally released that sexual tension she would probably break some pelvises (but again, I already illustrated that she's a zoophiliac and clearly getting her share already).

But sometimes authors do that in a continuity where resurrection is possible and even common-- revisit a corpse and then dismiss it as a way of saying, "Don't get your hopes up."

Which is not to say that he wasn't just waiting for someone to come along with that theory and she won't show up in the next comic, either. I just think it's unlikely; she played her role, and they may well have to deal with another high-level troublesome NPC when they go for the next gate.

[Raging_Pacifist]

That just screams 'pent-up sexual frustration that's released in the copier room one night after overtime work on the statistical analysis projections.'

...:smallredface:[/QUOTE]

Wow..... Watch what you say.

[VariaVespasa]

I think that definitely the story could continue on without Roy. But I always assumed that Roy would take on the Obi Wan Kenobi roll and guide them from the great beyond.

I like OOTS in part because it goes in unexpected directions.

So, you like OOTS because it goes in unexpected directions, but you EXPECT it to go in the direction you assume? Hmmm.....

You seem to assume a lot...

[bluewind95]

I honestly would really, really not like Roy being an Obi-Wan Kenobi to the OotS. Frankly, there's no one to replace him. And don't we supposedly have Eugene for that role? I mean, yes, he's definitely not a great Obi-Wan, but he'd been sort of fulfilling that role. I prefer it that way. Roy would be a good Obi-Wan. That's... too predictable. I like Eugene trying to fill that role better because he makes a terrible Obi-Wan.

Besides... isn't the point of a spiritual advisor like Obi-Wan that they are the mentors, and they're lost at a critical point, after which they continue to give advice to their student, although since they're not present anymore, the student has to "grow up" and eventually grow out of the need for spiritual help? The problem with that is that Roy isn't even a mentor to the OotS. He is considered a role model by Elan, but Elan isn't the whole OotS. For the rest, he's the one who, by his presence and his quest, gives them reason to stay together. So... Roy really can't become an Obi-Wan in my opinion.

[The gF]

Also, so far he's been pretty bad at actually communicating his thoughts to people, which would seem to me to be a pretty important part of being an Obi-Wan type.

[Ampersand]

How did a thread about Celia get hijacked by Miko?

All threads are about Miko. It's just that not all of them know that yet.

On topic, Celia as a character doesn't annoy me. What annoys me about Celia is that she's one half of an idiotic Hollywood romance. You know the type..."I know we just met 17 minutes ago, but I already know you're my Soul Mate™ and that we were Destined To Be Together Forever™"

I personally would like it if, after she and Roy finally have significant non-coital interaction they realize that the only thing they actually have in common is a Lawful alignment and the only reason they got together was they were both on the rebound. (Celia had just dumped her boyfriend for making with a dryad, and it apparently wasn't long after Roy realized that he had no chance with Miko after obsessing on her for several weeks)

And we come back to Miko. The circle is unbroken.

[The gF]

Roy didn't realize he had no chance with Miko. In fact, she said that he probably HAD a chance.

He realized that Miko has absolutely no attractive qualities.

[Deathtouched]

Just to speak of the immediate question:
Miko - mean and extreme
Celia - airy fairy girl
Both have their downsides but Celia isn't crazy, just air-headed. Roy and Celia should be happy together at least for a while. Miko should stay dead because of her acceptance and the fact that her re-life would only mess up the story. Celia is the force of action, agreed, and in the story she's only there to push Haley toward the future. Celia and Haley will travel, communicate, raise Roy, and rejoin the others. Unfortunately, Celia will die in the end. Probably not, but... She's not annoying, just pushy.
Celia is air genasi and air-headed, a possible pun... :smallsigh:

[Zappy]

I think Celia is doing great. I always liked her. I think that if given the chance she and Roy could be great together. Yes it's true they haven't spent a lot of time together, but as soon as Roy gets res'd they will.

Rad if it's OK I think I'll be joining the club.

[P/C Phoenix]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.KnightTemplar
Usually their primary step is to get rid of that pesky "free will" thing that is the cause of crime and evil. To many Knight Templar types, All Crimes Are Equal, and the lightest offenses are met with full imprisonment, death or brainwashing.
Where does Miko do this, exactly?

This bit right here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0228.html).

Specifically, this bit:


Miko: This is preposterous! My Detect Evil power is granted by the gods, it is not harmful.
Lawyer: Oh really? Are you aware that an alarmingly high percentage of those you have exposed to this power have died as a result?
Miko: Yes! Because they were Evil, so I killed them!*
Lawyer: The plaintiff rests.

So Miko does fit into the Knight Templar category quite easily. To her, Evil = kill it now, even if it isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, or even unhealthy. (So it could be argued that in her pursuit of her duty and her rigid interpretation of it, Miko was actually doing more harm than good to the side of Good. After all...it is a Good act to ensure that someone who registers as Evil is unable to commit Evil acts (and killing them is certainly one way of doing that) - but it's an even better one to convert them to the side of Good. Apparently Miko missed that class, during Paladin Training.)

* - emphasis mine.

[David Argall]

He realized that Miko has absolutely no attractive qualities.

Quite the contrary. She had a host of them, including every one that Roy wanted [or rather, thought he wanted.]

To list some,
a killer bod [arguably the hottest lass in the strip to date]
Extreme bravery
highly intelligent
highly talented and skilled

[P/C Phoenix]

To her, Evil = kill it now, even if it isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, or even unhealthy.

Actually, considering this, I suspect the only reason she hadn't had her paladinhood removed already is that she herself said that she was often sent on long missions that took her far away from Azure City - meaning that there wouldn't be many people out there whom the Azure City paladins would consider legitimate sources, in regards to Miko's conduct out in the big wide world (and, as far as the gods were concerned, killing Evil creatures wasn't anything worth worrying about.)

[FujinAkari]

To her, Evil = kill it now, even if it isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, or even unhealthy.

I would point out that page 105 of the player's handbook agrees with Miko.

"Alhaundra, a paladin who fights evil without mercy and protects the innocent without hesitation is lawful good."

Most of your post seems to be nothing but your opinion which, while valid, is still simply opinion and not supported by the alignment system.


Actually, considering this, I suspect the only reason she hadn't had her paladinhood removed already is that she herself said that she was often sent on long missions that took her far away from Azure City - meaning that there wouldn't be many people out there whom the Azure City paladins would consider legitimate sources, in regards to Miko's conduct out in the big wide world (and, as far as the gods were concerned, killing Evil creatures wasn't anything worth worrying about.)

Ummm... I don't think your Paladinhood can be removed by anyone except the gods...

"Sorry Monkey, but some pencil-pusher in Azure City says I cannot be blessed by your divine power anymore."

... No.

[Paladin29]

Well, only the Giant knows what is the Roy´s woman type. In my experience I like brave and intelligent women, yes... but i think Celia has that virtues (In fact In my opinion she is more intelligent than Miko), in addition Celia is kind, affectionate and nice, she is good (in the spirit of the aligment not like Miko who is goof in the letter of the aligment). I have no doubt who i´d choose ;)

[fractal]

The statement:

Miko: Yes! Because they were Evil, so I killed them!
Does not mean that she necessarily killed everything that detected as evil. It merely means that she killed evil things, which she might have witnessed doing evil deeds, as well as having detected evil on them to be certain of their unrighteousness. For example, she investigated the Order of the Stick AND detected evil on Roy before attempting to bring him to justice.

Other than the mattress tag remover (clearly humor), the only times we ever saw Miko act without careful forethought were the attacks on Shojo and on the sapphire.

[Spiky]

highly talented and skilled
Yeah, but not in the right activities.

[Alfryd]

...you are just going to have to accept that Paladins are allowed to save the world. Yes, even when stopping the world from being destroyed involves actions that we'd all prefer not to have to happen.
Explain to me again how slaughtering defenceless toddlers contributed to the security of the planet in any meaningful fashion? Oh- that's right- IT DIDN'T.
Paladins who randomly slaughter defenceless geriatrics and children without warning, anything resembling direct provocation or incontrovertible neccesity, Fall. Hard. End of debate.


To her, Evil = kill it now, even if it isn't doing anything illegal, immoral, or even unhealthy.
1. I can disprove this easily by pointing out Belkar lived to stand trial.
2. She never says there wasn't other evidence for specific crimes deserving of death.
3. You seem to have a poor understanding of what 'Evil' alignment actually means. It rarely results from failing to pick up your tab at restaurants.


After all...it is a Good act to ensure that someone who registers as Evil is unable to commit Evil acts (and killing them is certainly one way of doing that) - but it's an even better one to convert them to the side of Good. Apparently Miko missed that class, during Paladin Training.)
Certainly, certainly- if this can be done without unduly endangering other innocents- but that's not always practical. (Which is, for instance, why I find it very hard to justify leaving Nale and Co. alive after their 2nd or even 1st encounter with the OotS.) I mean, it's like the old superhero mantra- 'people who live can change.' Yes, spidey, but they can also kill.
I'm sure the folks in Cliffport would appreciate the fine points of such lofty ethical scruples while stitching together the mangled corpses of their loved ones.

"Usually". "To many".
Yeah, but in that case she's hardly the 'embodiment in practically every way.'


But those incidents had major influence on plot.
Okay, but how does Miko not qualify by these standards?

[The gF]

Other than the mattress tag remover (clearly humor), the only times we ever saw Miko act without careful forethought were the attacks on Shojo and on the sapphire.

And when she chased and nearly killed Belkar in an act that would have caused her to Fall if she succeeded. And against the trolls when she naturally assumed that Vaarsuvius would take orders from her, and in the process botched up a much better and less risky plan in the making. And when she attacked Hinjo. And when she had to kill two people because she didn't just make a Gather Information roll...

[VetMichael]

And when she chased and nearly killed Belkar in an act that would have caused her to Fall if she succeeded. And against the trolls when she naturally assumed that Vaarsuvius would take orders from her, and in the process botched up a much better and less risky plan in the making. And when she attacked Hinjo. And when she had to kill two people because she didn't just make a Gather Information roll...

After reading your systematic deconstruction of pro-She Who Shall Not Be Named fanatics' arguments I have but one thing to say to you....


YOU RULE!

I also would like to contribute my two bits to this: First, this is a thread about CELIA - you know, the fey/para-elemental/para-legal? the Blue chick? The one who actually got to see (and, I assume, use) Roy's Trouser Ti...*ahem* well, I digress. This thread is about Celia, not SHE Who Shall Not Be Named, and all references to said non-Celia character shall be met with a plugging of my ears and the LOUD recitation of "LALALALALALALACAN'THEARYOULALALALALALALA" until such blasphemy is spoken no more.


Besides, Celia is VASTLY more useful than that other character in that:

1)she thinks of OTHER people first and foremost AND

2) she is not S.W.S.N.B.N.

[Jayabalard]

Seriously, Haley should shove a sword into her.

I don't like her attitude.

She can complain about Haley's leadership when she's done anything heroic in her life.

Her act has killed Roy/Celia for me.

He should go get a nice Elf girl.not me... I think the comics with Celia in it are the best filler so far...

[FujinAkari]

And when she chased and nearly killed Belkar in an act that would have caused her to Fall if she succeeded.

It is exceedingly unlikely that killing Belkar after he had broken out of prison and murdered a prison guard in cold blood would have caused her to fall. She, as a member of the Sapphire Guard, had a duty to restore order and capture an armed and extremely dangerous prisoner.


And against the trolls when she naturally assumed that Vaarsuvius would take orders from her,

Her battle plan with the trolls was very carefully considered. The contention you are trying to rebuff is that she acts on a whim and doesn't think things through, while the ogre example shows a very obvious and meticulous strategy at work. While you would be correct in saying she made a mistake in her Ogre-plan, you cannot say she didn't -have- an ogre plan.


and in the process botched up a much better and less risky plan in the making.

This is pure opinion, and likely incorrect. The plan they were coming up with involved having seven people attempt to surround about twenty to twenty-five ogres, which would have resulted in them being unable to effectively support one another and carried a much higher chance of individual harm. Miko's plan eliminated the majority of the ogres in the first round. Thus, you are hard pressed to call it a better plan, imho.


And when she attacked Hinjo.

Which is part of the same sequence as her attacking Shojo, one of the specific exceptions already noted.


And when she had to kill two people because she didn't just make a Gather Information roll...

Miko can hardly be held at fault because others choose to attack her rather than answering questions. This is not a display of her failure to plan, since she was the one on the defensive.

[Morty]

not me... I think the comics with Celia in it are the best filler so far...

So... the comics in which Celia made Haley leave the city instead of staying put inside are filler?

[David Argall]

And when she chased and nearly killed Belkar in an act that would have caused her to Fall if she succeeded.
We only have Belkar's opinion it would cause her to fall, and Belkar's intelectual ability has been compared unfavorably to that of a table. Given a variety of other deeds that do not cause a fall in OOTS, Miko seems unlikely to fall there.
Nor does any system of ethics that would allow paladins to function at all seem to condemn her. Belkar is murderous slime, with both past and future crimes on his record. Offing him is something we might object to on practical grounds, but on moral grounds in a system where adventurers go around killing things? Miko might be violating the law, but not morals.


And against the trolls when she naturally assumed that Vaarsuvius would take orders from her, and in the process botched up a much better and less risky plan in the making.
It was ogres, not trolls, and her plan was both superior morally and tactically, and less risky [except to her, but we would deem that a virtue.]
Morally, Miko's plan allowed the ogres to display any reason they should not be killed, whereas Roy's simply assumed they were guilty parties. Given the nature of ogres, that wasn't a dangerous assumption on Roy's part, but he still could have ended up killing innocents.
Tactically, Miko's idea meant that an encounter Roy rated as a tough one became a cakewalk. It was an outstanding tactical success. That V might have refused to obey? While V makes objections, she easily gives in to the obvious tactical needs. Only later does he try for revenge.


And when she had to kill two people because she didn't just make a Gather Information roll...
The people attack her, after she helped them. Just why should she think she would need some careful plan?



this is a thread about CELIA - you know, the fey/para-elemental/para-legal? the Blue chick? The one who actually got to see (and, I assume, use) Roy's Trouser Ti...*ahem* well, I digress. This thread is about Celia, not SHE Who Shall Not Be Named,

Besides, Celia is VASTLY more useful than that other character
The fact that Miko can wander in here and take over the thread is rather clear evidence that Miko was the much more useful character. Miko inspires our passions. Celia is a benefit to the strip, sure, but she is a milksop by comparison. She is just a spearcarrier while Miko dominated the stage.

[The gF]

Miko dominated the stage because she was an example of an extreme with an incredibly flat personality.

At least Celia is dynamic.

[Remirach]

The fact that Miko can wander in here and take over the thread is rather clear evidence that Miko was the much more useful character. Miko inspires our passions. Celia is a benefit to the strip, sure, but she is a milksop by comparison. She is just a spearcarrier while Miko dominated the stage.
"Useful for the purposes of telling a story," yes. I think the intended usage was more along the lines of "useful to the characters within the strip." Though, she was useful in that sense too... but sometimes she wound up being more useful to the bad guys than her own team, so...

Celia has actually been kinda useless herself to the characters. The trial she "won" for them was rigged in their favor anyway. The talisman she gave Roy failed to save his life. Her intent to unify the Resistance would have ended in bloodshed if not for the appearance of Mr. Scruffy. Her appearance has motivated Haley to leave the city, but she's only served as "the exposition fairy," dispensing knowledge rather than showing any great powers of intellect or persuasion. She's more of a net positive to the Order than Miko largely because she's actively trying to help them instead of serving as an antagonist.

I wouldn't call her a "milksop" though.