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Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-20, 06:42 AM
You heard me. Wish sucks in comparison with Miracle, can someone direct me to a better version of Wish or a homebrewed version? Or at least explain how it is good.

Talic
2008-02-20, 06:46 AM
Because, by RAW, if a wish is used for the base effects, it always works.

With a miracle, the DM always has the choice to say that it's against the wishes of the god, and thus does absolutely nothing. Miracles are requested. Wishes are demanded.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-20, 06:48 AM
But a Miracle can do more than a Wish, plus it could cost no experience.

puppyavenger
2008-02-20, 06:56 AM
actualy, wish has no upper limit to it's power, to the point where, if you have something like a five page long wish without any loop holes than you could get prety much anything.

Adumbration
2008-02-20, 07:11 AM
actualy, wish has no upper limit to it's power, to the point where, if you have something like a five page long wish without any loop holes than you could get prety much anything.

How do you figure to do that without the DM choking you with your own character sheet?

Kurald Galain
2008-02-20, 07:12 AM
actualy, wish has no upper limit to it's power, to the point where, if you have something like a five page long wish without any loop holes than you could get prety much anything.

Well, that would be grounds for having the character make a few Knowledge (bureaucracy), Knowledge (legalese) and Knowledge (D&D rules) checks to find out whether he, IC, manages to come up with the same five-page-long document correctly.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-20, 07:12 AM
Because, by RAW, if a wish is used for the base effects, it always works.

Only if you have decent DM, remember some bad DMs punish you if you wish for anything; though they forget 3.5 only punishes those that exceed basic wish limits.

endoperez
2008-02-20, 07:29 AM
actualy, wish has no upper limit to it's power, to the point where, if you have something like a five page long wish without any loop holes than you could get prety much anything.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

"Even wish, however, has its limits...

... You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)"

Err... no?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 07:36 AM
"I wish for my next wish to be empowered, but NOT as per the feat. The empowering will multiply the power of the wish by 4. Multiple castings of this wish will stack the multiplier."

Tadaa!

Roderick_BR
2008-02-20, 07:41 AM
Wish is good for wizards that can't cast Miracle. Period.
Back in AD&D, there had no Miracle spell. Miracle was just added to be the divine's version of Wish.
By Raw, Miracle gets a few more things, because it is one of those case that it is, by RAW, completely subject to a DM's rule zero.

Riffington
2008-02-20, 07:42 AM
I am reminded of a recent unfortunate incident...
http://tinyurl.com/29lynr

Emperor Tippy
2008-02-20, 07:43 AM
Wish is good for emergencies but otherwise its only good if you are using abuse to get it for free, in which case it is broken beyond all reasonable expectations (to the point where you can get epic items at level 7).

Khanderas
2008-02-20, 07:44 AM
Well likly there several interpretations to those spells but here are mine, and they make sense to me.

Wish- Though arcane knowledge, force of will and an insane expenditure of raw magical power you alter reality by force. The wizard opens himself up to the arcane forces and bends them to his will.
When a Wizard duplicates a spell (X) with Wish, he is not casting X. It looks like X, does have an effect like X but it is not X.
Now this way of spellcasting is very draining, as seen by the XP loss. It also explains why sometimes things dont go "right" when you wish for too much. Wish tends to emulate a spell of a lower level, since a wizard after years of study is wired that way (mentally).

Miracle- A cleric basically asks his god to do him a favor. While he is not opening himself up to pure forces as crudely as the Wizard does, but to a sentient extraplanar being (and avoiding getting xp drained), the god itself may or may not grant this boon. Nobody likes a nag, bother it too much and be smote ! Some gods might even be unintrested in granting miracles unless it furthers the gods goals directly (defending the gods temple, restore one or more party members who are hurt fighting enemies of this god and so on).


Both spells needs a breaker, in Wish's case its the XP cost and the risk of things going bad if you wish for too much. In Miracles case, the deity can simply ignore your request (plus a hidden cost in respect from him if you bug him with it too much), especially if you wish for too much.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 07:47 AM
"I wish for my next wish to be empowered, but NOT as per the feat. The empowering will multiply the power of the wish by 4. Multiple castings of this wish will stack the multiplier."

Tadaa!

"This is outside of the effects of Wish. We apologize for any inconvenience this causes"

Khanderas
2008-02-20, 07:53 AM
"This is outside of the effects of Wish. We apologize for any inconvenience this causes"
Resetting the universe...
Please hold.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 07:57 AM
"I wish for my next wish to be empowered, but NOT as per the feat. The empowering will multiply the power of the wish by 4. Multiple castings of this wish will stack the multiplier."

Tadaa!

And lo, the power of your next wish has its power multiplied by four. This doesn't get you any extra effects, but the additional magical energies ravage your body, quadrupling the XP cost.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 08:08 AM
Mais non. I'm quadrupling EVERYTHING on it. Even the raw magical power the wish has. Then, if the forces of cheese apply, I wish again and the power is either squared to 16 or cubed to 64. Then, I proceed Wish one final time and abuse da roolz.

Talic
2008-02-20, 08:13 AM
Only if you have decent DM, remember some bad DMs punish you if you wish for anything; though they forget 3.5 only punishes those that exceed basic wish limits.

A bad DM does not mean the spell is bad. Only the DM.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:14 AM
Mais non. I'm quadrupling EVERYTHING on it. Even the raw magical power the wish has. Then, if the forces of cheese apply, I wish again and the power is either squared to 16 or cubed to 64. Then, I proceed Wish one final time and abuse da roolz.

Except that what you got, by quadrupling the exp penalty, was exactly what you asked for. Try harder.

The Partial Fulfilment clause means that no matter how airtight your wording, there's no reason to grant you anything stupid-broken. You are basically sticking your head in the figurative lion's mouth.

Talic
2008-02-20, 08:17 AM
And lo, the power of your next wish has its power multiplied by four. This doesn't get you any extra effects, but the additional magical energies ravage your body, quadrupling the XP cost.

Bear in mind, there is a text listing in the PHb that allows for 4 effects of a wish for different effects.

1) The option of the "Infinite power wish" proponents. It gets granted.

2) The other option they present as preventable, It gets perverted.

3) The first of two options they ignore, it only gets partially fulfilled. "I'm sorry that we can't fulfill your request for a ring of infinite power inside a box of wheaties. Have the box of wheaties, as a consolation prize." The above example would be a perfect case of partial fulfillment. Quadrupling the penalties and costs, and ignoring the rest of the wish.

4) It fails. No matter how airtight the wording, no matter what you say, if you do not wish for one of the approved options, the DM has every right to say, "nothing happens."


Mais non. I'm quadrupling EVERYTHING on it. Even the raw magical power the wish has. Then, if the forces of cheese apply, I wish again and the power is either squared to 16 or cubed to 64. Then, I proceed Wish one final time and abuse da roolz.

No... you're WISHING that you copied everything on it. What you GET, is still subject to the 4 options above. Your wish isn't for the approved abilities in the entry, so the DM has every right to tell you to **** off. By the rules you're trying to abuse. Without invoking Rule 0.

Ganurath
2008-02-20, 08:21 AM
Resetting the universe...
Please hold.I hate Muzak, somebody unleash Tharizdun so we can speed up the process. Maybe with a Wish?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 08:24 AM
The funny thing is, that wish is actually mostly harmful. Yeah, a wish with 64 times the power might be able to give me a staff of power, but I'm taking 320000 XP points in penalty. It's not like it ain't drawbacked. And this is using a light version of the multiplying wish. If I had to bring the real thing, you'd have to say "Nah, doesn't work because I say so", which is more or less conceding the victory, which is the biggest prize.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:30 AM
The funny thing is, that wish is actually mostly harmful. Yeah, a wish with 64 times the power might be able to give me a staff of power, but I'm taking 320000 XP points in penalty. It's not like it ain't drawbacked. And this is using a light version of the multiplying wish. If I had to bring the real thing, you'd have to say "Nah, doesn't work because I say so", which is more or less conceding the victory, which is the biggest prize.

"It doesn't work because I say so", while not what I'm saying, is hardly a victory for you when one considers that this is an insanely open-ended wish fulfillment spell. If you bring the real thing, I would say exactly what I said before; "Your wish fails, for the same reason that your unmodified, per-RAW fireball fails to heal those commoners; What you're requesting of the spell isn't a possible outcome".

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 08:36 AM
And yet, using an item that converts fire damage to positive energy or a cursed healing scroll is the same thing here. I'm cleverly using mah ole tooles to empower the wish, at a massive cost of 330000 XP. With a cost that'll downgrade me a few levels, I've earned the power.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 08:42 AM
Mais non. I'm quadrupling EVERYTHING on it. Even the raw magical power the wish has. Then, if the forces of cheese apply, I wish again and the power is either squared to 16 or cubed to 64. Then, I proceed Wish one final time and abuse da roolz.

That might have been what you *intended* but it's totally up to the DM what you *get*.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:45 AM
And yet, using an item that converts fire damage to positive energy or a cursed healing scroll is the same thing here. I'm cleverly using mah ole tooles to empower the wish, at a massive cost of 330000 XP. With a cost that'll downgrade me a few levels, I've earned the power.

Did you not see the word "Unmodified"? No, I would say you have earned nothing, as we are playing a game. Any wish you would want that costs 330k exp is not a wish that needs to be cast in the game. You fail to empower wishes, or if I were being sadistic (Which, believe me, I would be, as this is intentional abuse), you lose the exp for a normal effect wish. Which, given what you would be WISHING FOR after those exponential wishes, would probably /also/ whomp you.

If you do not understand why the partial fulfillment clause can kick your ass, I can't help you.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 08:48 AM
What, I can't ask for Quickness? By the time someone else is getting it in a significantly more (Sp mistake on purpose) borkened way? Pshaw.

BTW, an unmodified fireball can still heal. Absorbs Fire, anyone?

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:54 AM
What, I can't ask for Quickness? By the time someone else is getting it in a significantly more (Sp mistake on purpose) borkened way? Pshaw.

BTW, an unmodified fireball can still heal. Absorbs Fire, anyone?

I also specified Commoners, of which there are none among races that absorb fire.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 08:56 AM
Azer and the like. Hmm...Fire Elemental commoner...niiiiiiiiiiiiiceeeeee.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:57 AM
Those are restricted to mere immunity to fire. Truthfully, I'm not aware of Absorb Fire being a trait /anywhere/ within DnD. And those are still Warriors, not Commoners.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 09:02 AM
Some spells allow absorbs, and there was at least one race with absorption. I remember one of the Fire domain spells absorbing fire damage.

Telonius
2008-02-20, 09:03 AM
"I wish for my next wish to be empowered, but NOT as per the feat. The empowering will multiply the power of the wish by 4. Multiple castings of this wish will stack the multiplier."

Tadaa!

Sadly, the character is unable to cast a 36th-level spell. :smallcool:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 09:04 AM
Spell level be noth spelle powere.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 09:06 AM
Spell level be noth spelle powere.

And yet, that is another valid reading of your wish.

Telonius
2008-02-20, 09:07 AM
Oh? The wording sounds a little vague to me, and I don't see a definition of "spell power" anywhere in the DMG. So it means whatever the DM says it means. Seriously, any wish can be perverted.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 09:09 AM
Nah. Spell level is a manifestation of the level of arcane lore you need to have to comprehend and use the spell safely. You don't have to multiply the level of lore too, since it doesn't make Wish harder to cast, only more draining.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 09:13 AM
Has not the entire basis of spell levels been that greater power requires a higher level of lore?

Why don't you try making a new wish?

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 09:18 AM
Contingent spell, rather. Wish, of course:

"Make Every Wish castable at level 9 at the cost of doing nonlethal damage equal to it's cubed spell level. If the nonlethal damage done is higher than my hitpoints +10 then convert all the damage into lethal damage. This contingency must activate should I attempt to wish for more powerful wishes at the cost of requiring a higher spell slot."

Telonius
2008-02-20, 09:26 AM
Contingent spell, rather. Wish, of course:

"Make Every Wish castable at level 9 at the cost of doing nonlethal damage equal to it's cubed spell level. If the nonlethal damage done is higher than my hitpoints +10 then convert all the damage into lethal damage. This contingency must activate should I attempt to wish for more powerful wishes at the cost of requiring a higher spell slot."

You've just automatically killed yourself whenever you cast wish, unless you have 720 hit points or more. I think this one comes pre-perverted. Unless you're trying to kill yourself, in which case the nonlethal damage is done to the nearest creature (it doesn't specify whose damage).

Yes, I have ranks in profession (politician) and craft (faustian bargain).

Rutee
2008-02-20, 09:28 AM
Yeah, I was trying to work out what that could possibly mean besides "Kill me when I cast Wish"

CrowSpawn
2008-02-20, 09:37 AM
Why does it seem like most of this argument is avoiding the most important thing?

Yes, Wish is a powerful tool, but no player should ever be able to "multiply" his power or whatever else ridiculousness he might imagine with any power anywhere. It's this "multiply for power" thinking that ruins the fun of D&D in general. It's what ruins Epic-Level D&D for me, as well.

The bottom line is, if you use Wish like this, and your DM allows it? Good for you. I hope you enjoy that kind of play. But it just isn't for me, who would in fact, better enjoy a more moderately powered game with a good story that isn't going to be screwed up by my casting of Wish.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-20, 09:41 AM
I think I'll just wish for a three-feet glowing neon sign that reads "I won D&D". It's easier than all that empowered quintuple damage stuff.

Talic
2008-02-20, 09:43 AM
The funny thing is, that wish is actually mostly harmful. Yeah, a wish with 64 times the power might be able to give me a staff of power, but I'm taking 320000 XP points in penalty. It's not like it ain't drawbacked. And this is using a light version of the multiplying wish. If I had to bring the real thing, you'd have to say "Nah, doesn't work because I say so", which is more or less conceding the victory, which is the biggest prize.

No, it's not. It's conceding that you've got a player who's a little ****, and trying to do something that's not allowed. What you're saying is a lot like the following scenario:

DM: "You see a group of orcs in the cave. They number about 40, and they're standing abreast, in a rank two rows deep. The front row is kneeling, and the back row is standing. They've all got heavy crossbows, and they're all leveled at you. The leader, standing just behind them, on a small rise, demands a toll for passage through the cave."

Level 2 Wizard: "I cast meteor swarm!"

DM: "You can't."

Wizard: "I win!"

In the above example, the wizard is trying to blatantly do something beyond his power level.

When the DM considers your request to make a 9th level spell four times stronger, he must consider the the following: What's the closest parallel to this?

Answer: Intensify Spell, an epic caster feat that doubles and maximizes all numerical variable results of a spell. That will approximately quadruple the overall power level of a spell, while adding, I believe, 8 levels to the slot.

What use of the Wish spell most closely meets this?

Duplicate the power of an 8th level Sorc/Wiz spell that's not prohibited you.

Is the use of intensify spell (which only has limited applications, compared you your unlimited wish) on par with the power of an 8th level spell?

Answer: No.

Result: DM determines, by the rules of wish, that your request is too powerful. Result: he either modifies your wish, or denies it.

That is following PRECISELY the path that a good DM should use when adjudicating the effects of a wish.

My personal choice: Make you believe, with no saving throw or spell resistance allowed, that your next wish would be all powerful. Then, when you wish for that staff of power, it will teleport you to it... and the epic level mage holding it. Now you can either talk your way out of the situation that your brazen stupidity got you in... Or you can roll up a new character, as he melts the flesh from your bones, burns your eyes from your sockets, or permanently transforms you into a chimp, names you Bubbles, and makes you star in bad movies.

Oh, and yeah, you just lost 10,000 xp for the two wishes as an additional way to let you know how much you "won".

Aquillion
2008-02-20, 09:45 AM
actualy, wish has no upper limit to it's power, to the point where, if you have something like a five page long wish without any loop holes than you could get prety much anything.This is untrue. Read the spell carefully:


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) Emphasis mine. If you give the DM a five page paper, they're perfectly entitled, per RAW (and without using DM-fiat) to just read the first sentence, ignore the rest, and determine the result of your wish based on that. Even if they want to be more fair, the description basically encourages DMs to ignore things like excessive safeguards -- if you wish to get a million gp with no strings attached, a valid partial fufillment would be to get the 'million gp' part, but not the 'no strings attached' part. (An even more valid partial fufillment would be to only get 250,000 gp of the million.)

Wish just isn't a very good spell. It costs you about a fourth of a level at around the point when you get it, and virtually no DM is going to actually let you get any effect worth anything remotely approaching that much (it's not even clear how you'd balance things to determine that value -- certainly the examples given in the spell are far too weak.)

Just to drive that home: If you cast a single Wish at 17th level, you will probably be a level behind the rest of the party ~1/4th of the time for the rest of the adventure, unless you're going several levels epic. If you cast two, you'll be a level behind half the time.

Nothing Wish can reasonably do is worth that.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 09:50 AM
Those are restricted to mere immunity to fire. Truthfully, I'm not aware of Absorb Fire being a trait /anywhere/ within DnD.

Phoelarchs have it, I believe. Also, seriously, people. Wish is not the path to ultimate power in DnD. That's epic spellcasting (and a whole bunch of other stuff).

Aquillion
2008-02-20, 10:06 AM
Oh, one thing I forgot: There is one reason to at least put Wish in your spellbook if you get the chance (and already have the other important 9th level spells). This is the large number of nasty effects out there that say that 'only a Wish, Miracle, or other equivilent effect' can reverse them.

Obviously, in those cases, Miracle is generally preferred (since it usually lacks an xp cost when used in that way), but it's nice to have Wish as an option, just in case your Cleric gets obliterated by something that only a Wish can reverse.

That's pretty much the only reason I can think to learn it.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 10:15 AM
Oh, wanted to add this, but the conneciton jumped: Nonlethal damage immunity. Ain't I great?


BTW, the orc scenario? High enough level or a scroll and, as Bowie said, Wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am!

Seriously, a DM might be the most intelligent, wisest man/woman on earth, but against a player, the only thing he/she can do is battle it to a standstill (If he/she is foolish enough to attempt a war witht he players), because a DM acts reactively to the players. Without moving first, you will always be one move behind.

Talic
2008-02-20, 10:15 AM
Oh, one thing I forgot: There is one reason to at least put Wish in your spellbook if you get the chance (and already have the other important 9th level spells). This is the large number of nasty effects out there that say that 'only a Wish, Miracle, or other equivilent effect' can reverse them.

Obviously, in those cases, Miracle is generally preferred (since it usually lacks an xp cost when used in that way), but it's nice to have Wish as an option, just in case your Cleric gets obliterated by something that only a Wish can reverse.

That's pretty much the only reason I can think to learn it.

Why? Just get a scroll. Cheaper, and some other schlub paid the XP. Good for those rare occasions when you NEED a wish.

However, there are better 9th level spells out there. Wish is designed to be a, "We're dead next round anyway, there's no holding back now" kinda spell. It's for emergencies, not day to day practice.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 10:32 AM
Seriously, a DM might be the most intelligent, wisest man/woman on earth, but against a player, the only thing he/she can do is battle it to a standstill (If he/she is foolish enough to attempt a war witht he players), because a DM acts reactively to the players. Without moving first, you will always be one move behind.

Which would matter, if it was a game of "who can make the most moves".

It doesn't matter who goes first, the DM always goes *last*.

Let's take a look at your last "clever" wish.


"Make Every Wish castable at level 9 at the cost of doing nonlethal damage equal to it's cubed spell level. If the nonlethal damage done is higher than my hitpoints +10 then convert all the damage into lethal damage. This contingency must activate should I attempt to wish for more powerful wishes at the cost of requiring a higher spell slot."

At which point the DM, totally legitimately, says "hit points are not an in-character concept" or simply to invoke the "partial fulfillment" clause and say "okay, you just wished for 200 points of non-lethal damage, and by the way you've just paid 50000XP for the privilege".

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 10:39 AM
And that's the reason I said Nonlethal immunity. Get an item that grants it, and proceed to do the previous wishes.

And in fact, there's not even a point in arguing. All this wishing chain is there to get something in a remarkably UNBROKEN way. In my example, I want the Quickness Supernatural ability. I could get it easier, but I'm doing the world a favor and wishing the way through. A DM who chooses to penalize that is an idiot, simply. Now, something like, say getting 100 arms like a Hecatonchires, well, that WOULD be broken, but if a wizard wanted that, he'd just do something more cost effective.

Swordguy
2008-02-20, 10:43 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 10:43 AM
And that's the reason I said Nonlethal immunity. Get an item that grants it, and proceed to do the previous wishes.

The GM rules that since you wished for any damage in excess of your HP+10 to be converted to lethal damage, that the damage would be applied as lethal.

The GM rules that the damage bypasses your immunity.

This is why the GM is never "back footed" by the players, he has access to overwhelming force


And in fact, there's not even a point in arguing. All this wishing chain is there to get something in a remarkably UNBROKEN way. In my example, I want the Quickness Supernatural ability. I could get it easier, but I'm doing the world a favor and wishing the way through. A DM who chooses to penalize that is an idiot, simply. Now, something like, say getting 100 arms like a Hecatonchires, well, that WOULD be broken, but if a wizard wanted that, he'd just do something more cost effective.

It's not about what's broken, it's about what *works*.

Telonius
2008-02-20, 10:46 AM
Oh, wanted to add this, but the conneciton jumped: Nonlethal damage immunity. Ain't I great?


BTW, the orc scenario? High enough level or a scroll and, as Bowie said, Wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am!

Seriously, a DM might be the most intelligent, wisest man/woman on earth, but against a player, the only thing he/she can do is battle it to a standstill (If he/she is foolish enough to attempt a war witht he players), because a DM acts reactively to the players. Without moving first, you will always be one move behind.

Damage immunity? Then you've made it impossible for you to cast Wish. The damage is a component of the Wish; it doesn't function without it. In Wish-battles, the DM is always ahead. No matter how abusive the claim or reactive the DM, the player always loses the XP component of the spell. If they keep trying to game the system, they keep losing XP, of which there's a finite amount. The DM loses nothing.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 10:51 AM
Except his credibility after the battle of wits. And THAT is worth a level 100 epic character.

And no, not immunity. Rather, Nullification. Or Veil of undeath, if that's the name. Or...etc.

Telonius
2008-02-20, 10:51 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.

Except that wording doesn't cover the Wish you just cast. :smallamused:

Swordguy
2008-02-20, 10:54 AM
Except that wording doesn't cover the Wish you just cast. :smallamused:

Doesn't need to. It's not really pervertable - although I suppose you could simply add in the tag "I Wish that this wish and all future Wishes cast or received...". Doesn't make it all that more difficult.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 10:55 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

You so, so do not want to do that.

The thing that everybody is forgetting is that you have to phrase your wishes in-character. Amongst other ways to distort this Wish, without even relying on the "partial fulfillment" clause:

1) Wishes doesn't refer to a game mechanical concept, so the "Wishes" granted by Outsiders are not the same as the Wish spell you're talking about. The moment you try your "get an Outsider to grant my wishes" trick, it will just bone you.

2) Similarly, the "intent" described in the spell is your character's intent, not yours as player. Your character's subconscious is not under your control (that's why you don't get to decide whether you pass Will saves). This means that every wish you make can be interpreted wildly inaccurately by the DM, who can then justify it as your character's subconscious intent. If you wish for a million Gold Pieces, then what you're *really* wishing for is financial security, so what you *really* want is to stop having to worry about money, so the Wish just removes your desire for material possessions.

(To briefly plug my friend's novel, the children's book Verdigris Deep (http://www.amazon.com/Verdigris-Deep-Frances-Hardinge/dp/1405055375) uses exactly this interpretation of the perverted-wishes trope)

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 10:57 AM
Except his credibility after the battle of wits. And THAT is worth a level 100 epic character.


You seem to be having an underpants gnome moment.

1) Attempt to outwit DM.
2) Fail utterly.
3) ???
4) DM loses credibility.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 10:58 AM
So, in other words, Swordguy won, you don't have any rethorics to counter his idea, and are now resorting to a DM godmodding the personality of the character to avoid forking the power out.

Way to go. Swordguy, chalk another thread won to your record.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 11:12 AM
So, in other words, Swordguy won, you don't have any rethorics to counter his idea, and are now resorting to a DM godmodding the personality of the character to avoid forking the power out.

Way to go. Swordguy, chalk another thread won to your record.

You obviously have a strange definition of "win". Amongst other peculiarities, it seems to involve losing.

Aquillion
2008-02-20, 11:14 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.That still doesn't answer the objection I posed above:


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.) You're producing greater effects than the given, so you can get only a "partial fulfillment" -- contrary to what you (and many other people) seem to think, twisted wishes aren't the most dangerous part of the spell. Partial fufillment is much, much nastier, since no matter what you say and how you word it, you aren't guaranteed to get exactly what you asked for at all. No amount of talking and lawyering can protect you from the partial fufillment clause, since 'partial' can also include ignoring things like that. You can't use a Wish to try and negate it (like you seem to have been doing), since that wish itself could be only partially fufilled.

In this case, say, you could get the next one wish you make via outsider be mostly influenced by the intent of your wish, and mostly influenced by your intent alone. That's a valid partial fulfillment.

And that's if the DM is being nice. The universal 'rocks fall, everyone dies' partial fufillment for when things are really getting stupid is 'You get what you wished for, but only inside your head.' That is a valid partial fufillment for any wish.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 11:19 AM
You obviously have a strange definition of "win". Amongst other peculiarities, it seems to involve losing.

Did anyone else mentally picture Wimp Lo?

"It's time for your fist to my face style!"

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 12:05 PM
For the record, I didn't win. Swordguy did. He Zmeliked his way to the top.

Prophaniti
2008-02-20, 12:29 PM
No, you can't do that with a Wish spell. No, not even then. Seriously, NO.

My usual reaction to requests for Wishes outside the listed ones is "You can certainly try..." *grin evilly behind DM screen* You cannot reshape reality on a drastic level with Wish spells, not even with multiple Wish spells somehow cast in concert. I've never understood the logic behind people that claim you can, that think the existance of such a spell means that the first person to cast it either becomes a god or ends the world. It's not that powerful, nor should it be.

Sorry, OP I don't know of any spells that guarantee more powerful effects. I honestly hope they don't exist and think your DM should ignore them if they do.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-02-20, 12:39 PM
So...If I feel vindictively suicidal, I can just PAO and create a blackhole and to hell with everyone, but I can't wish to take a little bit from the moon to create an everdancing chakram. Real smooth.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 12:42 PM
So...If I feel vindictively suicidal, I can just PAO and create a blackhole and to hell with everyone, but I can't wish to take a little bit from the moon to create an everdancing chakram. Real smooth.

No, you can't do either. Unless your DM is a moron.

Aquillion
2008-02-20, 12:43 PM
So...If I feel vindictively suicidal, I can just PAO and create a blackhole and to hell with everyone, but I can't wish to take a little bit from the moon to create an everdancing chakram. Real smooth.Well, not really. The only difference is that Wish explictly calls for a DM call instead of only implictly, so you can talk about doing things with PAO in silly theoretical terms, while it doesn't make any sense to do that with Wish.

And figuring out what to allow and what not to allow with Wish is hard... obviously some things beyond the listed should be allowed, since that's described as a feature of the spell. But since it comes entirely down to DM call, it isn't really useful to discuss much (beyond 'what do you think a DM should allow?' sort of questions.)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 12:46 PM
So...If I feel vindictively suicidal, I can just PAO and create a blackhole and to hell with everyone, but I can't wish to take a little bit from the moon to create an everdancing chakram. Real smooth.

Well, uh, I'm fairly sure that WotC banned the PAO spell. Also, if you want ridiculous power, see here (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicSpells.htm). Sure, the DM can mess with it, but it's going into DM vs. RAW there, whereas they're on the same side here.

Swordguy
2008-02-20, 12:56 PM
You so, so do not want to do that.

The thing that everybody is forgetting is that you have to phrase your wishes in-character. Amongst other ways to distort this Wish, without even relying on the "partial fulfillment" clause:

1) Wishes doesn't refer to a game mechanical concept, so the "Wishes" granted by Outsiders are not the same as the Wish spell you're talking about. The moment you try your "get an Outsider to grant my wishes" trick, it will just bone you.


It's a wish effect.



2) Similarly, the "intent" described in the spell is your character's intent, not yours as player. Your character's subconscious is not under your control (that's why you don't get to decide whether you pass Will saves). This means that every wish you make can be interpreted wildly inaccurately by the DM, who can then justify it as your character's subconscious intent. If you wish for a million Gold Pieces, then what you're *really* wishing for is financial security, so what you *really* want is to stop having to worry about money, so the Wish just removes your desire for material possessions.


That IS an in-character statement.

If I had a DM who imposed my own character's desires, even subconscious ones, onto me, I'd get up and walk out. The DM controls everything else in the game world - and I'm completely fine with that. Heck, I probably swing too far in that direction. But the actions and motivations of the characters? Oh, HELL no.



You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

...

You're producing greater effects than the given, so you can get only a "partial fulfillment" -- contrary to what you (and many other people) seem to think, twisted wishes aren't the most dangerous part of the spell.

I read that differently than you, I think. I look at it and see:

"The wish may pervert your intent..."

Which implies that it may not. It may work exactly as you intended it too, regardless of whether you're asking for something outside the "safe" limits or not. It may not. If you can "get only a 'partial fulfillment'", then it would have said:

"The wish will pervert your intent..."

Because that wiggle room is there (clearly for the GM to have room to futz with the wish - and good for that!), there's the idea that if you can phrase a Wish correctly, then it won't be perverted or partially fulfilled. It's that room that makes the Wish not suck - if you're smart enough (or, conversely, if your GM is dumb, or if you can set up a method to force your Wishes to be fulfilled as per your intent rather than the strict letter) you can get your Wish to do exactly what you want.

All this said, I'd NEVER use what I suggested in a real game. I posit it only as a thought exercise. Real, unlimited, unpervertable Wishes take the fun out of the game for everyone who can't cast 9th level spells.

EDIT: What, by the way, is "Zmeliked"?

blacksabre
2008-02-20, 12:59 PM
this is how a Wish Spell works..

Make your Wish..
If the effects make sense to the continuity of the game world, it works.

If the effects will break the continuity of the game, and ruins it for all around the table, it fails in part on in whole.

If the failure of the intended effect upsets you enough, find another group to play with and stay in the basement of your momma's playing WoW sitting half naked in your cheetoes stained underware

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 01:07 PM
It's a wish effect.

Game mechanically. In character it's not the spell Wish, it's something different.


That IS an in-character statement.

If I had a DM who imposed my own character's desires, even subconscious ones, onto me, I'd get up and walk out. The DM controls everything else in the game world - and I'm completely fine with that. Heck, I probably swing too far in that direction. But the actions and motivations of the characters? Oh, HELL no.

So you houserule Will Saves out of the game, then?

However since, as you say, this is a thought experiment, it doesn't really matter.

The point is that wishing for "your intent" to be fulfilled won't give you what you the *player* want, it will give you what your *character* wants. Intents and motivations are complex things. If you say "I wish for ten million gold pieces" your character must have a *reason* for wanting ten million gold pieces, and an intent-tied wish will (I rule as DM in this thought experiment) go straight to your motivation, not to your wording.


All this said, I'd NEVER use what I suggested in a real game. I posit it only as a thought exercise. Real, unlimited, unpervertable Wishes take the fun out of the game for everyone who can't cast 9th level spells.

And I would never, in a real game, make a DM call about a character's subconscious motivations. This is a thought-experiment, I was simply pointing out why your method of "winning wish" was trivially easy to make go horribly, horribly wrong.

Swordguy
2008-02-20, 01:21 PM
So you houserule Will Saves out of the game, then?

However since, as you say, this is a thought experiment, it doesn't really matter.


Difference: A Will Save is generally intended to help the PC resist an external compulsion (ex. mind control), or an inherent internal compulsion (usually related to biological impulses, ex. not eating or sleeping and resisting the urge to do such).

Imposing what my PC *really* wants when he asks for a million GP is completely different. It's the DM imposing a character motivation onto the player and is completely out of line.

In my view, what the player says the character wants IS what the character wants. That's the entire purpose of role-playing. To have that subverted by the GM in the absence of established, in-game effects (mind control, etc) reduces the game to a masturbatory power-trip for the GM in question. It kills the entire point of the game, and I consider it to be railroading of the highest order, so much so that, as mentioned, I'd be out of the game in a heartbeat. I have better things to do with my time than be told what I think by somebody else.

EDIT: Gah. Missed my point. The point is that if you as a GM (not *you*, specifically) have to do something deliberately obtuse and/or asinine to stop the player from doing something like this, then you're just not being a "good" GM. It's just as legal to say "the universe implodes" when the PC Time Stop/Cloudkill/Whatever Combo's your BBEG on the first turn of combat, but it's not good GM-ing.

For example, what is a Wish? In my book, it's any time you either cast the spell or are granted an effect that duplicates the effect of the spell. "Rub the bottle and I'll grant you whatever you want" is a Wish, as is "Rub the bottle and I'll grant you 3 Wishes", as is "I cast Wish". They're the same thing. If you consider a Wish to be ONLY the Wish spell, then what happens if you're using alternative spell names? Is it no longer making a Wish when I cast "Dzjar's Granter of Desires", which functions exactly the same as making a Wish?

For me, it's the effect that matters. A wish from a spellbook, scroll, efreeti, ring, or genie are all the same wish, unless specifically described otherwise in the MM. Period.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 01:29 PM
Difference: A Will Save is generally intended to help the PC resist an external compulsion (ex. mind control), or an inherent internal compulsion (usually related to biological impulses, ex. not eating or sleeping and resisting the urge to do such).

Imposing what my PC *really* wants when he asks for a million GP is completely different. It's the DM imposing a character motivation onto the player and is completely out of line.

In my view, what the player says the character wants IS what the character wants. That's the entire purpose of role-playing. To have that subverted by the GM in the absence of established, in-game effects (mind control, etc) reduces the game to a masturbatory power-trip for the GM in question. It kills the entire point of the game, and I consider it to be railroading of the highest order, so much so that, as mentioned, I'd be out of the game in a heartbeat. I have better things to do with my time than be told what I think by somebody else.

And most GMs have better things to do with their time than to slap down people trying to cheese their Wish phrasing.

The point is that when your character asks for something he's asking for it for a *reason*. An intent-bound wish would (I rule as DM) go straight to the reason, not to the words. This can screw you.

If you're worried about the GM *telling* you what your character thinks, we will assume that you, as a player, possess the maturity and detachment to provide your own subconscious interpretations of your character's wishes. Either way, the "my intent" wish is a bad, bad one to make.

For the purposes of this thought experiment.

Aquillion
2008-02-20, 01:45 PM
I read that differently than you, I think. I look at it and see:

"The wish may pervert your intent..."

Which implies that it may not. It may work exactly as you intended it too, regardless of whether you're asking for something outside the "safe" limits or not. It may not. If you can "get only a 'partial fulfillment'", then it would have said:

"The wish will pervert your intent..."No, we agree completely (although I was talking about partial fulfillment, not subversion.) The key point is to understand that Wish is unreliable -- per RAW, you absolutely cannot cast a wish beyond the stated effects and depend on getting the result you asked for. You will get something, and could theoretically get what you want; but operating on the assumption that you do is not playing by RAW, either.

Saying "I wish for XYZ and use it to win!" in theoretical discussions is like saying "I take the massively-powerful artifact the DM drops me and use it to win!" Certainly, it can happen, but as soon as you step outside the guidelines of Wish you are relying on DM decisions, and that isn't generally useful for discussing on a messageboard, outside of discussing (say) what makes good DM-ing. In particular, the concept of a 'wish exploit' is nonsensical -- outside of the listed abilities, Wish does exactly as much as the DM lets it do.


EDIT: Gah. Missed my point. The point is that if you as a GM (not *you*, specifically) have to do something deliberately obtuse and/or asinine to stop the player from doing something like this, then you're just not being a "good" GM. It's just as legal to say "the universe implodes" when the PC Time Stop/Cloudkill/Whatever Combo's your BBEG on the first turn of combat, but it's not good GM-ing.I absolutely disagree with the premise of this paragraph. The possibility of a Partially-fufilled wish is not the same as the possibility of DM fiat or 'universe implodes' or any of the houserules people typically object to when discussing theoretical things like this; it is Wish operating as intended.

If you cast a powerful Wish and it is only partially fulfilled, you can no more call that "obtuse and/or asinine" than you could for a DM who allowed a monster to roll its saving throw against finger of death. Both are intrinsic parts of the spell that cannot be ignored; just like Finger of Death calls for a saving throw, Wish explicitly calls for a DM call each and every time it is cast.

Indeed, while distorting a wish to actively harm the player can be asinine, I would say that partial fufillment is absolutely the best way to go with a Wish that is plainly out of line. The player paid a level 9 spell and 5000 xp, so they get something -- just scaled down to a more reasonable level, or with some of the clauses removed.

Leewei
2008-02-20, 01:45 PM
I believe wish is better than miracle in that it can grant Inherent bonuses to ability scores. From what I can see, miracle can be used to create the various tomes that allow for this, however the XP cost and time involved are worse than a wish spell. Also, you'd have to have access to Craft Wondrous Item.

Regarding the wish modifying all future wish spells in any way, any DM able to foresee the future impact to the game is certainly also capable of applying the guidelines of the spell to determine whether to allow the modification to work. As a DM, the easiest approach to resolving power escalation by the character would be to modify the character in a way that made the wish technically feasible.

Example: DM allows the Player to rebuild his or her character as a result of the wish modifying all future wishes towards intent. After the re-spec, the DM informs the Player that his character is no longer the same person, and therefore future wish spells will be resolved as normal.

Furthermore, a harsh DM could permanently feeblemind the offending PC, thus avoiding the problem with intent. A subsequent casting of wish could remove the effect by nullifying the PC's initial wish.

Swordguy
2008-02-20, 01:55 PM
I absolutely disagree with the premise of this paragraph. The possibility of a Partially-fufilled wish is not the same as the possibility of DM fiat or 'universe implodes' or any of the houserules people typically object to when discussing theoretical things like this; it is Wish operating as intended.


Sorry, that was aimed at Dan_Hemmens idea of dictating a PC's internal motivations. That's what I consider asinine. "Obtuse" was at making the comparison to a Will save.



Example: DM allows the Player to rebuild his or her character as a result of the wish modifying all future wishes towards intent. After the re-spec, the DM informs the Player that his character is no longer the same person, and therefore future wish spells will be resolved as normal.

See, THAT'S a good counter.



Furthermore, a harsh DM could permanently feeblemind the offending PC, thus avoiding the problem with intent. A subsequent casting of wish could remove the effect by nullifying the PC's initial wish.

...and that isn't. A random Feeblemind, just to screw with the player? There's not anywhere in the wish that provides an opening for this - it's just the the GM dropping the banhammer on the PC.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 02:04 PM
EDIT: Gah. Missed my point. The point is that if you as a GM (not *you*, specifically) have to do something deliberately obtuse and/or asinine to stop the player from doing something like this, then you're just not being a "good" GM. It's just as legal to say "the universe implodes" when the PC Time Stop/Cloudkill/Whatever Combo's your BBEG on the first turn of combat, but it's not good GM-ing.

The difference is that Time Stop/Cloudkill/Whatever is unambiguous by RAW. What they do is exactly what the rules say they do.

A better example (and one mentioned briefly upthread) would be a player using PaO to turn his enemy into a black hole. No sensible GM would allow it and that's not being obtuse or asinine, that's just saying "sorry, I'm afraid black holes aren't part of my cosmology".

The moment the rules are subject to interpretation, the DM can interpret them.


For example, what is a Wish? In my book, it's any time you either cast the spell or are granted an effect that duplicates the effect of the spell. "Rub the bottle and I'll grant you whatever you want" is a Wish, as is "Rub the bottle and I'll grant you 3 Wishes", as is "I cast Wish". They're the same thing. If you consider a Wish to be ONLY the Wish spell, then what happens if you're using alternative spell names? Is it no longer making a Wish when I cast "Dzjar's Granter of Desires", which functions exactly the same as making a Wish?

Emphasis mine. In your book "Wish" means "any effect granting you the mechanical effect of the wish spell". Great. My book says different, and I'm the one adjudicating the effects of your Wish spell.

The point is that you can't use IC terminology to ask for specific game mechanical effects, except within the boundaries of the spell (I wish I was stronger/faster/smarter). You can't "wish" for the rules of the game to be changed. So you can wish for a particular effect to take place when you are the target of a spell called "Wish" (this is effectively the same as placing a Contingency), but that only applies to the spell, not to any other means of getting the same effect.

And this fairly obviously has to be the case, because the "effect" of the Wish spell is "I get what I want" - if it applied to all effects that gave you what you wanted, it would apply to everything you ever did.


For me, it's the effect that matters. A wish from a spellbook, scroll, efreeti, ring, or genie are all the same wish, unless specifically described otherwise in the MM. Period.

What about a "wish" granted by the make-a-wish foundation? What if a demon offers to grant you a "wish" and it does it by going out and performing physical actions in the world to give you what you want? It's the same effect. Just because two things are game mechanically identical, that doesn't make them the same thing in character.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-02-20, 02:06 PM
See, THAT'S a good counter.


So let's get this right: having the spell interpret "intent" as "your character's subconscious desire" is asinine but having it define "you" as "you as you exactly are right now, not you in five seconds time" is a good counter?

Newtkeeper
2008-02-20, 05:34 PM
Question? Why are we discussing ways a 9th level spell can "win DnD"? Even if this *were* valid, and it isn't, there are hundreds of easier, cheaper, and lower level ways to beat the system. Low level Kobolds; Gate cheese; the commoner railgun; anything involving polymorph... and many more besides. We all know DnD is breakable- so is everything. You have simply chosen a quite ineffecient and quite probably faulty example. Yay for you. Have a cookie.
''__
/'''\
|'*'|
\'''/

mikeejimbo
2008-02-20, 06:08 PM
I can win Wish.

"I wish for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a glass of milk."

This has duplicated "Create Food and Water" (more or less) or if you want to be more stringent, "Major Creation." And it makes me happy.

Roderick_BR
2008-02-20, 06:31 PM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.
Then the DM will be a **** and pull a ShengLong (DBZ) "This wish can't be granted, it's beyond the wish's power" :smalltongue: Yes, a DM can do that. Wishes have limit. Remember, the Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle are the only spells, by RAW, that come with built-in Rule Zero.

Newtkeeper
2008-02-20, 07:14 PM
Then the DM will be a **** and pull a ShengLong (DBZ) "This wish can't be granted, it's beyond the wish's power" :smalltongue: Yes, a DM can do that. Wishes have limit. Remember, the Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle are the only spells, by RAW, that come with built-in Rule Zero.

I would say that it isn't even Rule Zero. Rule Zero would be, in this case, giving a wish more power (or less) than it has as written.

deadseashoals
2008-02-20, 08:35 PM
And this is why wish sucks so bad in D&D. Players try to up the ante, DMs try to pervert every god damn wish the players ever make, having a pit fiend bring you the sandwich you just wished for, and so a safe zone has to be established, and that safe zone has erred on the side of underwhelming power. Just reading this thread gives quite the glimpse into the attitudes on both sides.

trehek
2008-02-20, 08:36 PM
There is a pretty good loophole in the Wish spell for the DM, which can cause an extremely powerful wish to fail without resorting to the "nerf"-switch.

"When a Wish duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 10,000gp you must provide that component."

So the DM may simply rule that a spell with such an effect exists somewhere, and it has an extremely rare (possibly unique) and thus extremely valuable material component. It is up to the DM whether the PCs can quest to obtain said component to cast the spell, or whether the component is simply beyond their reach (it might be under the personal protection of an immortal, for example).

Another nice way to allow for powerful unique wishes is to place a side effect, which does not necessarily have to be harmful to the player. For example, wishing for a permament self-augmentation might produce an effect that is indeed permament but gets suppressed in anti-magic or might even be dispellable. Another example could be an effect focus that is created by the spell. Duplicating a creature ability might contain the soul of such a creature, and if the container is broken, the spell effect ends. There are many ways to make this work in cool ways adding personality and flavor to the Wish while creating limitations to the wished power.

Usually Wish spells are treated as pretty much "try and see" effects. I've found it enjoyable to add an aspect to my games which allows for players to test some of their planned Wishes. Players can invest into research to determine a Wish spell's "strain on the fabric of the multiverse". Using this research (or some kinda Wish Simulator spell) they can find out whether a planned wish will produce the desired effect with a single casting, a multi casting, or whether the wish will have it's effect reduced.

Generally I think it's a good idea to try to reduce or limit Wish effects whenever possible rather than make them fail or backfire. Also, backfires should only happen if the Wish effect comes from a source which desires the effect to be warped (an efreet, for example).

However, a Wish is mortal magic and as such any completely overpowered casting can and will be negated by the Celerity-CounterWish (or similar) of an immortal entity/power/god, which doesn't want the wish to happen.

Rutee
2008-02-20, 08:38 PM
I can win Wish.

"I wish for a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and a glass of milk."

This has duplicated "Create Food and Water" (more or less) or if you want to be more stringent, "Major Creation." And it makes me happy.

The DM could cut the crust off.. but that /does/ win, yes.

Lizardfolk Lich
2008-02-20, 08:40 PM
I'm mostly confused about the high exp cost for little back.

trehek
2008-02-20, 08:49 PM
I'm mostly confused about the high exp cost for little back.

Many of the listed effects might indeed seem weak, but keep in mind that Wish can duplicate ANY spell, or even a combination of spells. A caster cannot memorize every spell there is, so the duplication use of Wish can be thought of as an ultimate panic button to cast a critical spell that you didn't have memorized (or can't memorize at all!).

Using unique wishes the sky (read DM) is the limit.

Lupy
2008-02-20, 09:07 PM
In a campaign I heard about, a 32nd level Wizard cast wish with all his XP, and recreated the universe with the rest of the party as gods, after the evil Goddess slew all the other gods... DM cheese for the sake of plot! Yay!

Leewei
2008-02-20, 09:09 PM
Look at it this way: 20kxp for a permanent +2 to spell DCs, plus 4 or more additional spells per day depending on your casting ability score. For that matter, 20kxp would also get you +2 to all Concentration checks, 2HP per level of your character, and +2 to all Fort saves. Alternately, +2 to Initiative, AC and Reflex saves in perpetuity. Spend 25kxp if you're on an odd number and make these +3 instead.

This particular use of wish makes it a very nifty spell.

The harsh DM feeblemind example, by the way, might tick me off as well, but as I see it, the DM is well within her rights to impose nasty penalties to PCs with some warning given, just as Players can vote with their feet.

Serenity
2008-02-20, 09:11 PM
There are plenty, plenty of ways the DM can stop Wish abuse. The partial fulfillment is particularly brutal; you can wish up a lawyer and have him provide you with the iron-clad wording for your next wish, where there's no room for misinterpretation...and the DM can just rip it up and focus on one sentence.

If the DM ever tells me what my character's 'intent' was, however, he is taking control of my character's thoughts in a way that far exceeds his authority. The DM can tell me what my character does or thinks when a compulsion of some sort affects me in that way. To tell me that in any other circumstances is to usurp a character that I have created and that I am supposed to control, and that is to be avoided wherever possible--which it certainly is in any casting of Wish.

Khanderas
2008-02-21, 02:47 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.
If that wish was a possible application for wish, then it would be included in the spell (because we can assume the wish spell was not invented by your character and scores of archwizards and liches have improved upon it over the decades or centuries) and wish would not HAVE a chance to be "misinterpreted" or being too "literal" by the DM.

Therefore that wish does not compute, If I DM'ed that and was in a bad mood you would take the xp drain and a bad effect. If I was nice that day, I'd mention the above point and let him back out of the idea (because a wizard has two fistfuls of int).


Wish is a great spell to have in reserve. Group beaten to mush, almost out of spells, wish you and your group was not in the Underdark but actually safe at home. Poof, not a TPK and if your DM makes you pay 5 or 10 k xp for it, suck it up, it was still worth it.

Talic
2008-02-21, 03:00 AM
Here's the way to mostly win at Wishing, as long as you don't want to use it as a "battle" spell.

Cast, at a cost of 5k XP, the following Wish: "I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources are granted to the full extent of my intent behind the Wish, and influenced by my intent alone."

Then make a career out of summoning Outsiders to grant you Wishes. As listed, several of them will do so just to see you get screwed over by the wording or how they can twist it. Unbeknownst to them, you've got the previous wish preventing them from perverting it..AND you suffer no xp cost from granted Wishes. Granted, it'll work once per Outsider...but there's a lot of them, so it'll take time for the word to get around.


Let's see. Again, we shall evaluate the wish, through the eyes of a competent DM.

1) Define The effect: Modify a potentially limitless number of 9th level spells, over a time that never expires, to act exactly as you want, removing all DM control from this aspect of the game.

2) Closest effect on table: None.

3) Does this fall in line with the overall power level of a wish? No. It is so far beyond the power of any 8th level spell that it's not funny.

4) Action? Cause the wish to fail, or pervert, or partially fulfill.

My result? Treat the wish as, ""I Wish that all future Wishes cast or received by me from external sources over the next month are granted, to an extent, by my intent behind the Wish."

End result? You paid 5,000 xp to guarantee that your intent will be factored into the desire of any wish, but will not be the only factor. Overall change? Very little, other than it will make it more difficult, but not impossible, for outsiders to mess with your wish.... Unless you wish outside the bounds of wish.

Krrth
2008-02-21, 09:30 AM
Hmmm...for that abuse of a wish, I would probably have paragon lawyers show up everytime your character gets a wish, and have your character dragged off somewhere so the powers that be can determine the exact intent behind your wish. After losing a couple of months every time you use wish, it might not be worth it.