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Duke of URL
2008-02-20, 07:41 AM
GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE IV: ARMY OF ONE

Nobody likes me, everybody hates me, I guess I'll just go and slay some wyrms.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties -- some DMs actually do enforce this in gestalt (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

"Army Of One" Specific Rules
Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, Feb. 26, 2008.
Challenge goals: Create a build that is a completely self-sufficient one-creature adventuring party. All aspects of adventuring should be considered, not just combat.
Banned: cohorts or followers of any type. Summoned, commanded/dominated, or constructed help is OK. Familiars and/or animal companions are likewise OK.
Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
Submitted Entries:
"Skippy, the Prepared" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3963489&postcount=9)
"Doobee Delver the Fearless" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964265&postcount=14) <== winner!
"Shao Wing" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964266&postcount=15)
"Captain Yoren d'Denith" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964954&postcount=17)
"Snake on a Helicopter" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3965257&postcount=18)
"Mind over Medic" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3966725&postcount=23)
"Terminator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3967086&postcount=24)
"Bob" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3970047&postcount=34)
"Army in a can" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974200&postcount=37)
"FlayerMan" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974935&postcount=38)
"Dorothy" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3985935&postcount=40)
"Juan" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3986418&postcount=41)
"The Zeleknator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3986929&postcount=42)




Upcoming Challenges
Invocation Vocation -- invokers need a little loving, too
Double Dippers -- double arcane, double divine, or double psionic progressions
Home On The Range(d) -- those who attack from afar
Vulnerable Villains -- BBEGs with flair but an exploitable (if not necessarily obvious) weakness
Riders On The Storm -- combatants who focus on using mounts
Magnificent Monsters -- only high LA and racial HD creatures allowed
Skill-Monkey Business -- support specialists
more to come... (I hope. Feel free to suggest some!)


Previous Challenges
Melee Masters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3873051)
Great Gishes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71548)
The Urge To Theurge (""http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72444)

Duke of URL
2008-02-20, 07:43 AM
Name:
Build: Lesser Aasimar Artificer 20 // Cleric 19 / Contemplative 1
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 18, CHA 16
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 7th -- Metamagic spell trigger is a big ability, if wands are plentiful

Lesser Aasimar: {Lesser Aasimar Traits}
1: Artificer 1 // Cleric 1: Extend Spell [Scribe Scroll] {Artificer Knowledge, Artisan Bonus, Disable Trap, Item Creation, Turn Undead, Domain: Travel, Domain: Trickery}
2: Artificer 2 // Cleric 2:
3: Artificer 3 // Cleric 3: Extra Turning [Craft Woundrous Item]
4: Artificer 4 // Cleric 4: [Legendary Artisan] {Craft Homonculus}
5: Artificer 5 // Cleric 5: [Craft Magical Arms And Armor] {Retain Essence}
6: Artificer 6 // Cleric 6: Attune Magic Weapon [Craft Wand]
7: Artificer 7 // Cleric 7: {Metamagic Spell Trigger}
8: Artificer 8 // Cleric 8: [Extraordinary Artisan]
9: Artificer 9 // Cleric 9: Empower Spell [Craft Rod]
10: Artificer 10 // Cleric 10:
11: Artificer 11 // Contemplative 1: {Metamagic Spell Completion, Domain: xxx}
12: Artificer 12 // Cleric 11: DMM: Persistent Spell [Craft Staff, Persistent Spell]
13: Artificer 13 // Cleric 12: {Skill Mastery}
14: Artificer 14 // Cleric 13: [Forge Ring]
15: Artificer 15 // Cleric 14: Maximize Spell
16: Artificer 16 // Cleric 15: [Chain Spell]
17: Artificer 17 // Cleric 16:
18: Artificer 18 // Cleric 17: FEAT
19: Artificer 19 // Cleric 18:
20: Artificer 20 // Cleric 19: [ARTIFICER BONUS FEAT]


[b]Offense

Defense

Non-Combat Capabilities

Weaknesses

Kurald Galain
2008-02-20, 08:22 AM
Banned: cohorts or followers of any type. Summoned, commanded/dominated, or constructed help is OK.
What about familiars?

And what about diplomancers? Does that count as "commanded help"?

What if you take an undead oe golem Cohort and fluff it so that you've constructed him?

Duke of URL
2008-02-20, 08:24 AM
What about familiars?

And what about diplomancers? Does that count as "commanded help"?

What if you take an undead oe golem Cohort and fluff it so that you've constructed him?

Familiars are OK, too. I'll add that to post #1. Basically, I'm just looking to avoid "Leadership" cheese.

Diplomancers are already covered in the "cheese points" section -- in short, I'd prefer you don't do it, as it is sort of a build-independent way of doing things.

Everything else is, as usual, open for interpretation and the application of common sense. On a personal note, all things being otherwise equal, I'd be more willing to vote for a build that has none of the above, as it would be a better fit for the "single creature" goal, even though such help is technically allowed.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-20, 08:34 AM
Just for clarification, I assume Thrallherd is out?

Duke of URL
2008-02-20, 08:40 AM
Just for clarification, I assume Thrallherd is out?

Well, unless you want to not use the class' most significant ability, yes.

Frosty
2008-02-20, 01:10 PM
I'm thinking...Factotum or Chameleon will reign supreme here? Or Kobold Cleric.

Draz74
2008-02-20, 02:01 PM
Nobody likes me, Everybody hates me, Guess I'll go slay wyrms.

Genius! (Edited for rhythmic preferences.)

Squash Monster
2008-02-20, 02:12 PM
"Name": Skippy, the Prepared

The Idea: The DMG says that sneaking past a monster is worth just as much experience as fighting it. So let's just skip the whole dungeon and go straight to the reward. This build is a one-man party. While crazily powerful in his own right, Skippy has dedicated his life to treasure hunting, and is the master of the dungeon crawl.

Race: Human

{table=header]ECL | Class 1 | Class 2 | BAB | HD | Wild Shape per Day | Class Features
1 | Druid | Wizard | 0 | d8 | 0 | Focused Specialist: Conjuration, Abrupt Jaunt (replaces Familiar), Scribe Scroll, Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, Nature Sense
2 | Druid | Wizard | 1 | d8 | 0 | Woodland Stride
3 | Druid | Wizard | 2 | d8 | 0 | Trackless Step
4 | Druid | Wizard | 3 | d8 | 0 | Resist Nature's Lure
5 | Druid | Wizard | 3 | d8 | 1 | Spontaneous Divination, Wild shape
6 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 3| d8 | 2 | Shifter's Speech, Improved Wild Shape (humanoid)
7 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 4 | d8 | 3 | Improved Wild Shape (giant; Large)
8 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 5 | d8 | 4 | Fast wild shape, Improved Wild Shape (monstrous humanoid)
9 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 6/1 | d8 | 5 | Improved Wild Shape (fey; Tiny)
10 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 6/1 | d8 | 6 | Domain Granted Power, Improved Wild Shape (vermin)
11 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 7/2 | d8 | 7 | Improved Wild Shape (aberration; Huge)
12 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 8/3 | d8 | 8 | Extraordinary Wild shape, Improved Wild Shape (plant)
13 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 9/4 | d8 | 9 | Improved Wild Shape (ooze; Diminutive)
14 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 10/5 | d8 | 10 | Improved Wild Shape (elemental)
15 | Master of Many forms | Wizard | 10/5 | d8 | 11 | Bonus Metamagic, Evershifting Form, Improved Wild Shape (dragon; Gargantuan)
16 | Druid | Mage of the Arcane Order | 11/6/1 | d8 | 12 | Guild member, Spellpool I
17 | Druid | Mage of the Arcane Order | 12/7/2 | d8 | 13 | Bonus metamagic feat
18 | Druid | Mage of the Arcane Order | 13/8/3 | d8 | 13 | Bonus language
19 | Druid | Mage of the Arcane Order | 13/8/3 | d8 | 13 | Venom Immunity, Spellpool II
20 | Druid | Mage of the Arcane Order | 14/9/4 | d8 | 14 | New spell
[/table]

Expected HP:
20d8 + 40 = 130 HP

Casts as:
20th level Wizard
10th level Druid (14th caster level due to Practiced Spellcaster)

Specialization:
Focused Conjuration (Drops Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy)

Feats:
1st: Extend Spell
1st: Endurance
3rd: Alertness
6th: Natural Spell
9th: Ashbound
12th: Practiced Spellcaster (Druid)
15th: Craft Contingent Spell
15th bonus: Cooperative Spell
17th bonus: Quicken Spell
18th: Alacritous Cognition

Other feat-like bonuses:
10th Domain Granted Power: Travel
18th bonus language: Does it matter?
20th bonus spell: It definitely doesn't matter.

Strengths:
Wild shape. You're better at it than a druid.
Casting. You're a full wizard, focused specialist conjurer with spontaneous divinations.
Plan. You've the best plan ever. Read on.

Weaknesses:
What?

Base Stats:
STR: 8
DEX: 10
CON: 14
WIS: 16
INT: 16
CHA: 8
Put all your bonuses into Intelligence.

How it works:
Day one: Skippy hears a lead about a dungeon that might have treasure at the bottom. Skippy saturates the dungeon with divination spells and learns exactly what's down there.
Day two: Skippy wild shapes into something that can burrow, casts invisibility, and sneaks as close as possible to the treasure room. If something stops him, he turns into something that can fly and sneaks through. If at any point he actually encounters resistance, he casts Solid Fog, Entangle, and whatever else he feels like, then runs away.
Day three: Skippy fences the goods, or donates them to charity, or whatever is appropriate for his alignment.

If at any point something goes wrong for Skippy, he spontaneously casts Alter Fortune via spontaneous divination. Or, if the problem is something trying to kill him, he uses Abrupt Jaunt to get away. Finally, if whatever is trying to kill him just can't be deterred, Skippy spontaneously casts Unluck through spontaneous divination, then proceeds to deliver a beatdown.

Protection:
Don't get cought. If you do get cought, Abrupt Jaunt and Alter Fortune away.

Get the usual AC-enhancement items if you can find them in wood flavor.

Skippy has no dependence on any specific item. However, if you can get yourself a type three ring of Wizardry, that's great. Level 3 spells are the source of Skippy's scariest spontaneous divinations (Alter Fortune and Unluck).

Oh, and bring a really big sack to put the loot in. Bags of holding and portable holes might be wise.

Playability:
This build takes a few levels to really mature. I'll go point by point through how your powers expand, but the major ones are 3, 5, and 9. 3 lets you do a cheap approximation of what you're meant to do, 5 lets you actually do it, and by 9 you're so good at it that it's hard to imagine something stopping you. 12 and 15 are amazing, but at that point nothing's going to stop you in the first place.

You're decent at level one, being a fully capable grease/entangle man, but that's not too awesome.

At level three you can be invisible, and thus need to use your good spells far less often. Additionally, this level gets you Listening Lorecall, which makes you much harder to surprise. Finally, this is the first level where the two-day strategy is really viable, because now you have access to the amazing invisible scouting monkey. This lovely combo goes like this: you cast Extended Summon Nature's Ally I to get a monkey, owl, or eagle depending on conditions. Then, you cast Chain of Eyes on your little helper. You can also cast Light or Invisibility on it if needed, but each of these is one less round of scouting. Now, you order your minion to run through the cave at full speed until the summon is almost up, then grab hold of the nearest creature. You get to see at least the first area of the dungeon, and if your minion successfully passes Chain of Eyes to something else, you're good for the day.

At level 5 you have Wild Shape, Spontaneous Divination, and 3rd level spells. The Wild Shape is the big one, as now you can be a dire badger and have a burrow speed. The rest of the features are great too: you can cast Alter Fortune if something goes wrong, and you have real divination spells like Clairvoyance. Additionally, your invisible scouting monkies are now generally giant bees or hippogriffs, which are both faster and capable of better dungeon penetration. Even better, you probably can afford using some spell slots to send squads of monkeys ahead of you to trigger any traps. And best yet? You now can cast Extended Rope Trick and sleep the night away, which is great if the whole plan goes sour, or if you get the treasure room and find that you need to refresh yourself before you haul it all back out.

At level 6 you get a new way to cover your hide if you mess up. You can wild shape into humanoids now, which means that if you're caught you can run around the corner, turn into one of whatever is chasing you, and pretend to be chasing after yourself. Also, you have Natural Spell now, which is all sorts of great.

At level 7, you have Dimension Door. This is pretty much cheating, since you can hollow out a cave for yourself and Dimension Door into it with the loot, skipping any possible pursuit. Or you could just Dimension Door into the place, since if you're invisible or you find a spot where nobody's looking, it doesn't matter that you can't take actions for a turn. I'm gonna pretend something blocks spells like this for most of your career though, because that's just not fun.

At level 9 you pick up Ashbound. This doubles the length of your summon Nature's Ally spells, so an extended one now lasts 20 rounds. You also have the spell Telepathic Bond now, so you can actually control your invisible scouting monkeys directly, instead of telling them to get as far in as possible.

Level 10 is great. You now have the Travel domain power, which means you have a way out of battlefield control spells other than Abrupt Jaunt. And, better yet, you can Wild shape into vermin. You picked up the ability to do tiny creatures last level, so if you're feeling gutsy you can enjoy sneaking around as a rat. Just remember that you still need to get your loot out of the place, which is more viable as a burrower than as a rat.

Level 11 is even better. Now you can be a huge abberation. This includes Stonesinger form, which has a good burrow speed and all sorts of good offensive capability. You also just picked up the spell Eye of Stone, so you can easily peek into whatever room you're about to tunnel into.

Level 12 is made of win and god. You now get to have the extraordinary abilities of whatever you wildshape into. This, for example, lets you go through solid metal by turning into a rust monster. Figure out some more uses yourself. Your Summon Nature's Ally spells also just went up 8 levels in duration, to keep up with ever deepening dungeons.

Level 15 lets you turn into a really scary dragon and craft contingent spells to save your hide. You should be essentially unkillable now.

Levels 16 through 20 are mostly irrelevant, you pick up 9th level spells but you're already awesome. You get spellpool access, though, which means you'll pretty much never be unprepared ever. Alacritous Cognition is the same thing, except better and only once per day.

Reinboom
2008-02-20, 02:23 PM
Do classes that, as a class in whole, rely on an item count that as a cheese point?

Example: Wizards and spellbooks.

Duke of URL
2008-02-20, 02:57 PM
Do classes that, as a class in whole, rely on an item count that as a cheese point?

Example: Wizards and spellbooks.

No, that would be silly. The point of some of the "cheese" rules is to get rid of the class-independent "tricks" such as UMD or diplo-cheese.

Chronos
2008-02-20, 02:58 PM
What are everyone's thoughts on using multiple variant class features in the same class? Giving up different base features for them, of course.

Squash Monster
2008-02-20, 03:03 PM
As long as they take up different slots, I see no problem. Indeed, certain alternate class features require other ones. For example, wizard specialization is an alternate class feature of sorts, and Immediate Magic requires specialization.

Draz74
2008-02-20, 05:03 PM
OK, I know Vow of Poverty is normally sub-par, but if I make, say, a Factotum//Archivist with intelligent equipment choices, I will feel like the equipment ends up being more important than the character. (Like most 3e characters.) So I'm taking two flexible classes with relatively little need for equipment, and I'm going to make Vow of Poverty work. Any lingering weakness of Vow of Poverty will be made up for via Polymorph cheese.

Name: Doobee Delver the Fearless
Build: CG Human Factotum 20//Psion (Egoist) 20
Starting Ability Scores: STR 8, DEX 10, CON 13, INT 18, WIS 13, CHA 8
Final Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 14, CON 24, INT 36, WIS 20, CHA 16
Cheese Points: 0 (or 1, for depending a lot on Polymorph-like effects for melee ability)
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Breaks: Level 3 (claws of the beast), Level 5 (energy missile), Level 7 (metamorphosis), Level 19 (cunning brilliance)

Level 1: Psion 1//Factotum 1 - {Discipline, Trapfinding, Cunning Insight, Cunning Knowledge}
Level 2: Psion 2//Factotum 2 - {Arcane Dillitante}
Level 3: Psion 3//Factotum 3 - {Cunning Defense, Brains over Brawn}
Level 4: Psion 4//Factotum 4 - {Cunning Strike}
Level 5: Psion 5//Factotum 5 - {Opportunistic Piety}
Level 6: Psion 6//Factotum 6
Level 7: Psion 7//Factotum 7
Level 8: Psion 8//Factotum 8 - {Cunning Surge}
Level 9: Psion 9//Factotum 9
Level 10: Psion 10//Factotum 10
Level 11: Psion 11//Factotum 11 - {Cunning Breach}
Level 12: Psion 12//Factotum 12
Level 13: Psion 13//Factotum 13 - {Cunning Dodge}
Level 14: Psion 14//Factotum 14
Level 15: Psion 15//Factotum 15
Level 16: Psion 16//Factotum 16 - {Improved Cunning Defense}
Level 17: Psion 17//Factotum 17
Level 18: Psion 18//Factotum 18
Level 19: Psion 19//Factotum 19 - {Cunning Brilliance}
Level 20: Psion 20//Factotum 20

Feats
L1: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Speed of Thought
L2: Nymph's Kiss
L3: Expanded Knowledge (Claws of the Beast)
L4: Intuitive Attack
L5: Expanded Knowledge (Energy Missile)
L6: Sanctify Natural Attack, Track
L8: Gift of Discernment
L9: Expanded Knowledge (Schism)
L10: Metamorphic Transfer, Exalted Turning
L12: Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), Vow of Abstinence
L14: Nimbus of Light
L15: Expanded Knowledge (Dispelling Buffer), Darkstalker
L16: Gift of Faith
L18: Expanded Knowledge (Hypercognition), Knight of Stars
L20: Holy Radiance, Quicken Power

Skills
Skill Points/Level: About 13. Depends on what level, since INT increases over time.
Skills to (nearly?) max out: Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Concentration, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Search, Disable Device
Skills to get about half ranks in: Tumble, Survival
Skills to dip a rank or so in: Knowledge (all), Autohypnosis, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Psicraft, Spellcraft, and pretty much anything that can't be used untrained (except UMD and UPD, which violate your Vow of Poverty).

Since Cunning Knowledge is such a critical ability to this build, I should explain that it lets Doobee add his Factotum level to any skill check. This can only be used 1/day for any given skill, and it can only be used a limited number of times (based on inspiration points) per encounter, along with most other Factotum abilities. For summaries of most other important Factotum abilities, see here. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436)

Psionic Abilities
473 PP/Day at Level 20
Powers Known:
1st Level - Astral Construct, Attraction, Call to Mind, Claws of the Beast, Defensive Precognition, Detect Psionics, Force Screen, Vigor
2nd Level - Animal Affinity, Concealing Amorpha, Detect Hostile Intent, Empathic Transfer, Energy Missile, Psionic Knock, Psionic Tongues
3rd Level - Body Adjustment, Body Purification, Dispel Psionics, Hustle, Telekinetic Force
4th Level - Correspond, Death Urge, Energy Adaptation, Metamorphosis, Psychic Reformation, Schism
5th Level - Power Resistance, Psionic Major Creation, Psionic Plane Shift, Psionic Revivify
6th Level - Dispelling Buffer, Psionic Disintegrate, Psionic Overland Flight, Psionic Restoration, Temporal Acceleration
7th Level - Fission
8th Level - Bend Reality, Hypercognition, Psionic Greater Teleport, Psionic Mind Blank
9th Level - Greater Metamorphosis, Reality Revision

Now I will defend why this character is The Army of One.

Flexibility of Roles
"One-Man:" Even in extreme "you don't have your normal stuff" situations, such as the classic "you wake up in a dungeon cell with none of your equipment," this guy doesn't really miss anything. Many of his abilities work fine unless the DM simply says "rule 0, they don't work." His manifesting abilities and some of his Vow of Poverty traits are hindered by antimagic, but even if he's trapped in an antimagic cell, he's better than anyone (except a dedicated escapist skill monkey) at escaping.
Action Economy: Between Hustle, Schism, Temporal Acceleration, Cunning Surge, and Quickened powers, Doobee should be getting more actions than just about any other character.
Role: Tank - d8 Hit Dice. Decent CON. Vigor power. VoP armor/deflection/natural AC bonuses. Force Screen power. Defensive Precognition power. (Greater) Cunning Defense ability. Concealing Amorpha power. Good Reflex save. Good Will save. Good WIS. Cunning Insight bonuses to saves in emergencies. Spell Resistance power.
Role: Melee Monster - I admit Doobee starts out with nothing good in this area except tanking ability and +4 bonuses to attack or damage 2/encounter. But at Level 3, he gains two magical natural weapons (Claws of the Beast + VoP) with good base damage. Level 4, he can use WIS on attack rolls instead of STR. Level 5, he gets the Hustle power to facilitate full attacks. Level 7, he gets Metamorphosis, and well ... 'nuff said.
Role: Ranged Threat - At levels 1-4, he'll have to carry a pack of javelins, and hope that he doesn't have to do much ranged fighting. Again, Cunning Insight will only get you so far. After level 5, the awesome Energy Missile makes Doobee a good ranged blaster.
Role: Save-Or-Suck Caster - Death Urge power vs. Will saves. Disintegrate power vs. Fort saves. Energy Missile power vs. Fort or Ref saves. He can always fill this out more via Factotum SLA's.
Role: Healer - Vigor power. VoP regeneration. Opportunistic Piety (at 20th level: 53 damage healed, 7/day). Metamorphosis. Body Adjustment power. Body Purification power. Psionic Restoration power. Psionic Revivify power. In case he actually needs to heal someone else, Empathic Transfer power.
Role: Battlefield Controller - This is the main area for Factotum SLA's to fill in, as psionics offer poor battlefield control. Solid Fog is great, since Doobee always has Freedom of Movement.
Role: Undead Turner - OK, this really isn't an important party role (despite what WotC would have you believe). But Doobee can do it anyway, better than some Clerics, thanks to a bunch of wacky Exalted feats on top of Opportunistic Piety.
Role: Wilderness Survivor - Decent Survival check. Decent Knowledge (Nature) check (see Diviner role). Track feat. VoP sustenance ability.
Role: Trapmonkey - Trapfinding. Great Search and Disable Device skills, with Cunning Knowledge for emergencies. If you need (non-improvised) tools, he can use Psionic Major Creation.
Role: Scout - Good Spot/Listen skills, with Cunning Knowledge for emergencies. Detect Psionics power. VoP True Seeing. Detect Hostile Intent is like the low-level adventurer's Foresight.
Role: Stealth Artist - Great Hide/Move Silently skills, with Cunning Knowledge for emergencies. Darkstalker feat. Concealing Amorpha power (essentially simulates Hide in Plain Sight). Mind Blank power.
Role: Escapist - VoP Freedom of Movement constantly. Half-decent Open Lock and Escape Artist skills, which become good 1/day using Cunning Knowledge on them. Uses Psionic Major Creation for non-improvised lockpicking tools. Or uses the Psionic Knock power. Fission power - so in real emergencies, Doobee can have his clone run away for him.
Role: Traveler - Speed of Thought feat. Decent Climb, Jump, Tumble, Swim, and Balance checks, with Cunning Knowledge for emergencies. Psionic Plane Shift power. Psionic Overland Flight power. Psionic Greater Teleport power.
Role: Information Specialist - Doobee trains all Knowledge skills, and gets to use his great INT bonus on them. If that's not enough, he uses Cunning Knowledge or the Call to Mind power. Psionic Divination power. Hypercognition power. If he needs some kind of scrying ability, too, he uses Factotum SLA's for that.
Role: Party Face - Good Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Bluff skills, with Cunning Knowledge for emergencies. Which is also useful on the occasions that he has to make another social check, e.g. Perform, Intimidate, Gather Information. Disguise checks can be supplemented via Metamorphosis. Psionic Tongues power. Attraction power. Detect Hostile Intent power. Correspond power.
Role: Batman - Dispel Psionics power. Spell Resistance power. In emergencies, Doobee can do almost anything. Astral Construct ... (Greater) Metamorphosis with Metamorphic Transfer ... Psychic Reformation ... Psionic Major Creation ... Bend Reality ... Reality Revision. And the awesome Cunning Brilliance capstone (L19) ability. Any of these powers is extremely flexible with some creativity, in case Doobee runs into any situation he couldn't handle.


Comments/suggestions/euphoric praise/donations welcome. :smallcool:

Lord Iames Osari
2008-02-20, 05:04 PM
Name: Shao Wing
Build: Winged Human Cleric 20//Monk 12/Kensai 6
Starting Ability Scores: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 8
Cheese Points: 1 (use-activated item of psionic lion's charge)
Minimum Playable Level: 9
Power Breaks: 7 - divine power, can afford use-activated item of psionic lion's charge; 9 - Shock Trooper; 14 - power surge ability; 18 - time stop.

Human, added Winged Template
Cleric 1//+1 LA: Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Turn undead, Magic domain, Trickery domain
Cleric 2//+2 LA: ~
Cleric 3//Monk 1 +2 LA: Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), unarmed strike, flurry of blows, Overwhelming Attack style (+2 Intimidate, Power Attack)
Cleric 4//Monk 2 +2 LA: Wis +1, evasion, Overwhelming Attack style (Improved Bull Rush) ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft.
Cleric 5//Monk 3 +2 LA: Still mind
Cleric 6//Monk 4 +2 LA: Leap Attack, ki strike (magic), slow fall 20 ft.
Cleric 7//Monk 5 +2 LA: Purity of body
Cleric 8//Monk 6 +2 LA: Wis +1, Overwhelming Attack style (Improved Overrun, bonus ability), slow fall 30 ft.
Cleric 9//Monk 7 +2 LA: Shock Trooper, wholeness of body
Cleric 10//Monk 8 +2 LA: Slow fall 40 ft.
Cleric 11//Monk 9 +2 LA: Improved evasion
Cleric 12//Monk 10 +2 LA: Int +1, Combat Expertise, ki strike (lawful), slow fall 50 ft.
Cleric 13//Monk 11 +2 LA: Diamond body, greater flurry
Cleric 14//Monk 12 +2 LA: Abundant step, slow fall 60 ft.
Cleric 15//Monk 12/Kensai 1 +2 LA: Superior Unarmed Strike*, oath of service (deity), signature weapon (unarmed strike)
Cleric 16//Monk 12/Kensai 2 +2 LA: Wis +1, power surge
Cleric 17//Monk 12/Kensai 3 +2 LA: ~
Cleric 18//Monk 12/Kensai 4 +2 LA: Improved Natural Attack, ki projection
Cleric 19//Monk 12/Kensai 5 +2 LA: Withstand
Cleric 20//Monk 12/Kensai 6 +2 LA: Wis +1

Equipment
Use-activated (swift action) item of psionic lion's charge
Periapt of Wisdom +6
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Bracers of Armor +8
Monk's Belt*

Offense
Shao Wing relies on CoDzilla buffing combined with the Shock Trooper-Leap Attack combo, psionic lion's charge, and the high mobility granted by the Winged template and the monk class. Shao Wing uses his greater speed to remain out of range of his opponents while he buffs, then charges his enemy, employing Shock Trooper to alleviate the attack penalty, Leap Attack to increase his damage per hit, and psionic lion's charge to get in more than one attack per charge. At 20th level with all buffs active, that works out to an attack routine of +37/+37/+37/+32/+27/+22, with each hit dealing a minimum of 57 damage, enough to force a save against death from massive damage.

If there are too many enemies for Shao Wing to take on at once, he uses arcane battlefield control spells accessed through the Magic domain's granted power to split up the enemy forces into manageable groups.

Defense
For defense, Shao Wing relies on the monk's formidable survivability, augmented by spells such as magic vestment and much of the higher-level Magic domain.

Non-Combat Capabilities
Here, Shao Wing relies on his spells and magical items, often arcane utility spells accessed through the Magic domain's granted power. The ki projection ability also helps in some situations.

Weaknesses
Shao Wing's effectiveness is limited by his spells per day and his ability to purchase or otherwise acquire expendable arcane magical items such as wands and scrolls.
[hr]
* I am assuming that the effects of Superior Unarmed Strike and the monk's belt stack.

Chronos
2008-02-20, 08:04 PM
I suspect the strongest possibility would be a beguiler//druid. The beguiler contributes skills and arcane spells, and the druid contributes melee capability and divine spells. There are, admittedly, some holes in the beguiler's spell list (notably, Fort save-or-die and other direct offense), but those are mostly filled by the druid's spell list (Baleful Polymorph, Control Winds, Firestorm). And whatever isn't covered by either, you could cover for with UMD.

I'm not calling this an official entry, since that's a pretty vague build. It's hard to come up with good PrCs for it, though... On the beguiler side, you'd need something that continues casting and has a bunch of skill points (and the right class skills), and on the druid side, you'd need something that continues both spells and Wild Shape, and the only class I know of off the top of my head that does that turns your character into a native of the Elemental Plane of Provolone (and I'm not going there).

The Gilded Duke
2008-02-20, 08:13 PM
Captain Yoren d'Denith
Dragonmarked Heir of House Denith
Human Wilder 20 // Marshal 20
Power Points: 453
20 / 26 Power Points a turn
Manifester Level 20/26

Concept:
Captain Yoren is not meant to try and fulfill every party roll. Captain Yoren is meant to excel at a select few party roles and be able to ignore other challenges thrown at him. As a level 20 wilder Captain Yoren is an increadible blaster. His Marshal levels help further augment his blasting abilities while also improving his defences and increasing his abilities as a skill monkey.

One thing Captain Yoren does not attempt to diffuse are traps. Yoren can survive any listed trap in the srd. His saves and AC make him immune to the majority of traps, and he can otherwise freedom of movement overland flight or planeshift his way out of the rest of them.

As a blaster it is important to note that Yoren doesn't focus on a specific type of blasting, or even just on damage. One of his best abilities is a fully augmented Ego Whip dealing 6d4 charisma damage with a DC 34 Will save, half damage on success, dazed on failure.

Against creatures with spell resistance Yoren uses his lesser Aura Determined Caster allowing him to add his charisma to his caster level checks. While Wild Surging his caster level check is +37.

Captain Yoren does a full wild surge when he really wants something dead. While he is still effected by the lost power points on a Psychic Enervation the power still goes through. Captain Yoren is immune to dazing and so does not loose any actions from Enervation.

Through Able Learner Captain Yoren has access to most knowledge skills, as well as UMD and UPD. When he Motivates Charisma Captain Yoren has a total modifier of +23 in both Use Device skills allowing him to cast most spells and powers in the game.

Stats:
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 32

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 18
Level Increase:
Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 21
Cloak of Charisma +6
Tome of Leadership and Influence +5
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 32

Skills: 14

Skills: (Possible +11
Concentration 14
Hide 18 +13
Move Silently 19 +13
Diplomacy 1 +11
Bluff 1 +11
Sense Motive 1 +1 +2
Tumble 8 -2
Autohypnosis 1 +1
Use Psionic Device 1 +11
Use Magic Device 1 +11
Spellcraft 1
Psicraft 1
Knowledge Psionics 1
Knowledge Arcana 1
Knowledge Religion 1
Knowledge Nature 1
Knowledge The Planes 1
Knowledge Architecture 1
Knowledge Dungeoneering 1
Knowledge Geography 1
Knowledge History 1
Knowledge Local 1
Knowledge Nobility 1

Saves:

Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +12
After Stats:
Fort +12, Ref +9, Will +13
With Motivate Care:
Fort+16, Ref +13, Will +17
Shapechanged into Nymph:
Fort +24, Ref +20, Will +22
With Watchful Eye:
Fort +12, Ref +20, Will +12
Nymph, Motivate, Watchful Eye:
Fort +27, Ref +35, Will +28

Armor Class: AC: 42, Flat: 39, Touch 24 / AC 53, Flat 50, Touch 35

AC: 10 + 8 Armor + 14 Enhance +2 Shield +5 Natural +3 Dex = 42
Flat Footed: 39
Touch: 24

Nymph
AC: 53
Flat Footed: 50
Touch: 35

Mithral Masterwork Full Plate +5 Of Greater Shadow and Greater Silent Moves
Armor Bonus +8, Max Dex 3, Armor Check Penalty -2
Enhancement Bonus +5
Mithral Heavy Steel Shield
Shield Bonus +2 +5
Enhancement Bonus +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5
Defending Longsword +4




Marshal Auras:

Minor: 8
Motivate Dexterity +11
Motivate Charisma +11
Motivate Intelligence +11
Motivate Wisdom +11
Determined Caster +11
Watchful Eye +11
Force of Will +11
Demand Fortitude +11

Major: 5 (Gives +4 Bonus)
Resilient Troops
Motivate Urgency
Steady Hand
Motivate Care
Motivate Ardor

Wilder Powers:

Disintegrate Psionic 6
Temporal Acceleration 6
Plane Shift Psionic 5
Freedom of Movement Psionic 4
Telekinetic Thrust 3
True Seeing Psionic 5
Body Adjustment 3
Swarm of Crystals 2
Ego Whip 2
Energy Ray 1
Precognition Offensive 1

Overland Flight 6
Metamorphosis 4
Dominate Psionic 4

Feats and Class Abilities:

Feats:
1st: Least Dragonmark of Sentinel: Protection From Arrows, Sense Motive +2
Human: Able Learner
3rd: Mark of the Dauntless
6th: Metamorphic Transfer
9th: Quicken Power
12th: Expanded Knowledge Metamorphosis
15th: Expanded Knowledge Dominate
18th: Expanded Knowledge Overland Flight

Proficiencies:
Simple and Martial Weapons
Light Medium and Heavy Armor
Shields

Skill Focus Diplomacy
Grant Move Action 5/day

Wild Surge +6 - Psychic Enervation (Immune to Stunning)
Surging Euphoria +3 Saves and Attacks for usually 6 rounds
Volatile Mind +4
Elude Touch

Chronos
2008-02-20, 09:10 PM
OK, I don't think that this will actually be better than the Beguiler // Druid build, but just for fun, let's put a new spin on my Great Gish entry.

Snake on a Helicopter:
Build: Couatl HD 9/Loremaster 2/Sacred Exorcist 1/Loremaster +1/Sorcerer 1/Master Filcher 1/Loremaster +5 // LA 7/PsiRogue 1/Spellthief 1/Fighter 1/Ranger 5/Fighter +1/Ranger +2/Crusader 2
Starting scores: Str 16, Dex 14, Con 19, Int 22, Wis 16, Cha 22
Buffed/leveled scores: Str 40, Dex 16, Con 35, Int 24, Wis 20, Cha 29
Minimum Playable Level: 9
Power Breaks: 12 (DMM Persist), 15 (Wild Shape), 18 (Miracle)
Cheese Points: 4 (ignoring multiclass penalty, level dips, one flaw, dependence on nightsticks)

I'm using the Dungeonscape Trapmaster ranger alternate feature (give up tracking for Disable Device on skill list) and the Unearthed Arcana wildshape ranger alternate feature (give up combat style for fast movement as barbarian, and Wild Shape as druid into small or medium animals).

{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | Feats | Special Abilities
1 | Outsider 1 | LA 1 | Eschew MaterialsB, Shaky (flaw), Extend Spell, Skill Focus: Know(Arcana) | Couatl traits
2 | Outsider 2 | LA 2 | |
3 | Outsider 3 | LA 3 | Reach Spell |
4 | Outsider 4 | LA 4 | |
5 | Outsider 5 | LA 5 | |
6 | Outsider 6 | LA 6 | Persist Spell |
7 | Outsider 7 | LA 7 | |
8 | Outsider 8 | Psychic Rogue 1 | | Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +1d6
9 | Outsider 9 | Spellthief 1 | Master Spellthief | Sneak Attack +2d6, Steal Spell
10 | Loremaster 1 | Fighter 1 | Power Attack | Dodge Trick
11 | Loremaster 2 | Ranger 1 | | Lore, Favored Enemy (Undead +2), Fast Movement, Wild Empathy
12 | Sacred Exorcist 1 | Ranger 2 | Divine Metamagic: Persist | Turn Undead, Exorcism
13 | Loremaster 3 | Ranger 3 | Endurance, Darkstalker | Applicable Knowledge
14 | Sorcerer 1 | Ranger 4 | | Familiar (cat), Animal Companion
15 | Master Filcher 1 | Ranger 5 | Natural Spell | Detect Magic 3/day, Wild Shape 1/day, Favored Enemy (Undead +4, Evil Outsiders +2)
16 | Loremaster 4 | Fighter 2 | Improved Initiative | Bonus Language
17 | Loremaster 5 | Ranger 6 | | Weapon Trick, Wild Shape 2/day
18 | Loremaster 6 | Ranger 7 | Mindsight | Greater Lore, Wild Shape 3/day, Woodland Stride
19 | Loremaster 7 | Crusader 1 | | Secrets of Inner Strength
20 | Loremaster 8 | Crusader 2 | | Bonus Language[/table]

Sorcerer spells known:
0 (9): Guidance, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Mending, Acid Splash, Resistance, Mage Hand
1 (5): Divine Favor, Chill Touch, Shield of Faith, Shield, True Strike
2 (5): Silence, Delay Poison, Augury, Resist Energy, Rope Trick
3 (4): Prayer, Shrink Item, Clairvoyance, Dispel Magic
4 (4): Dismissal, Death Ward, Enervation, Polymorph
5 (4): Righteous Might, Wall of Stone, Control Winds, Shadow Evocation
6 (3): Heal, Disintegrate, Acid Fog
7 (3): Greater Restoration, Waves of Exhaustion, Bite of the Werebear
8 (3): Mind Blank, Iron Body, Moment of Prescience
9 (3): Miracle, Foresight, Greater Visage of the Deity

Buffs:
Typical spells persisted: Divine Favor, Shield, Shield of Faith, Prayer, Righteous Might, Bite of the Werebear, Greater Visage of the Deity, and sometimes Iron Body
Also Resist Energy, Death Ward, and sometimes Polymorph, turned into fixed-range spells (and therefore eligible for Persist) via Reach Spell

Typical long-duration spells active: Mage Armor, Delay Poison, Shrink Item, Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Contingency (via Miracle)

Permanencied (via Miracle): Arcane Sight, Greater Magic Fang (bite, claws, rake, tail), many high-CL Magic Mouths

How it works: Unlike his brother, Helicopter spends almost no time in his natural form (except when in an antimagic field). Instead, he uses Change Shape to take humanoid forms (and therefore can use humanoid equipment), and after level 15, Wildshape. When in a situation where humanoid form is necessary (for going into town, or using hands), he does not end Wildshape, but rather uses Change Shape again, serving to both conserve his limited Wild Shape uses and to keep his animal physical ability scores. Like Snake on a Plane, Helicopter has 20th-level sorcerer spellcasting, with access to the cleric and air domain lists, and full BAB. After level 12, he also has Turn Undead, and with nightsticks, can persist all of his buffs.

Melee Combat: In melee, he's not just a fleshraker with class levels and Power Attack; he's an invisible fleshraker with class levels, Power Attack, 20 BAB, persisted Clerzilla and sorcerer buffs (for a total of +24 Strength, among other benefits), crusader maneuvers, and 2d6 sneak attack on each attack which he can use to drain spells of any level from his target. 'Nuff said.

He also has a familiar, a cat, who shares all of his buffs. It's not as formidable as him, but it still has 20 BAB, three natural attacks, a 27 strength, and 167 HP (assuming average rolls). Unfortunately, though, they can't flank, since Fluffy loses his buffs if he's more than 5 feet away. He's also eligible for an animal companion, which he could buff similarly, but it'd be as a 3rd-level druid, which means that it'd die if anything challenge-appropriate looked at it funny. So we'll not bother with that.

Arcane spellcasting: He casts as a 20th-level sorcerer. It's not wizard, but it'll get the job done.

Divine spellcasting: He can choose spells from the cleric list, and can supplement his healing via Crusader. He also has Turn Undead, to power divine metamagic, and can cast genuine divine spells as a ranger, qualifying him to use items like Beads of Karma.

Social skills: He's got a Charisma of 22 (or higher, with items, buffs, and level boosts), 12 ranks in Diplomacy, and he can look like whatever he wants.

Stealth skills: He's got maxed Hide and Move Silently, Darkstalker, and Mindblank. Good luck finding him.

Dungeon skills: Ranger levels give him 12 skill points each, and access to Listen, Search, Spot, and Disable Device, and he can find and disable difficult traps. Open Locks he gets from the PsiRogue and Spellthief levels, and from his later dip into Master Filcher, to the point where he can open even amazing-quality locks without need for magic.

Recommended equipment: He'll mostly want the same equipment as a druid. In particular, Master Spellthief lets him ignore ASF in light armor, so he'll want to get a good Wild light armor ASAP. He'll also want Nightsticks, to fuel his persistent spells, and stat-boosting items, especially Charisma, with Wilding Clasps as necessary.

Weaknesses: His primary weakness is that with only one casting class, his spell slots are stretched very thin, especially in spells known. After 18th level, Miracle can take up a lot of slack, but there's a limit on how many 9th-level slots one can spend. Many of his spells known are used for buffs, leaving melee as his primary offense.

With his dependence on buffs, he'll also be vulnerable to Dispel Magic. He has a bunch of sacrificial Magic Mouth spells as insurance against area dispels, but essentially no defense against a targeted dispel other than boosted CL (at least +5, if he can get a bead of karma and ioun stone). Even with the CL boosting, though, a Greater Dispelling will take down, on average, a quarter of his buffs.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-20, 09:51 PM
Squash Monster...I like your style...

MoMF is one of my favorite PrCs...and abusing the possibilities is just awesome.

Squash Monster
2008-02-20, 10:45 PM
Squash Monster...I like your style...

MoMF is one of my favorite PrCs...and abusing the possibilities is just awesome.Thank you. I've never really looked at the class before this, since outside the context of Gestalt, losing the Druid casting hurts so much. But once I had the idea for this build, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

I really love how the whole thing came together, especially the invisible scouting monkey trick.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-02-21, 06:08 AM
I have prepared an entry, but I was wondering if someone could help me with designing a table. If anyone could help me with that I would be greatly appreciative.

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-21, 07:11 AM
Thank you. I've never really looked at the class before this, since outside the context of Gestalt, losing the Druid casting hurts so much. But once I had the idea for this build, it just seemed like the right thing to do.

I really love how the whole thing came together, especially the invisible scouting monkey trick.

the only 'sad' thing about the class is that a mage no longer needs MoMF after 17th level if they have shapechange...with shapechange, they have everything MoMF has, and more...they get supernatural abilities, can shift as a free action each round, and get up to 50 HD to play with and any size. An extended metamagic rod gives you 6.5 hours of shapechange...and you can always use a psion to get it as well and not worry about how many 9th level slots you have.

I think there are some PrC's for mages that you can get starting at 6th level that offer full casting progression in a class you have...chose wizard/whatever then at 6th -11th choose wizard/PrC, then at 11th you should have effectively 17th level spellcasting (5+6x2)...grab your metamagic rod and GO! Not sure what would be best for the other class, though I am sure cleric might be nice if only to abuse some spells with divine metamagic and stuff...and later on, you can always bump your cleric casting in the same way you bumped your mage casting to max right away.

Zincorium
2008-02-21, 07:19 AM
Name: Mind over Medic
Build: Human Warblade//psychic rogue/sangehirn
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14, DEX 16, CON 10, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 8
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: 12, fast healing drastically shortens downtime

Uses the Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) and Sangehirn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) articles from the Mind's Eye column.

{table=head]Level | Left Class | Right Class | Feats | Special Abilities
1 | Warblade 1 | Psychic Rogue 1 | Craven, TWF | Battle Clarity (reflex), weapon aptitude, sneak attack 1d6, trapfinding
2 | Warblade 2 | Psychic Rogue 2 | | Uncany Dodge, Evasion
3 | Warblade 3 | Psychic Rogue 3 | Martial Study: Shadow Jaunt | Battle ardor (crit confirm)
4 | Warblade 4 | Psychic Rogue 4 | | Sneak attack 2d6
5 | Warblade 5 | Psychic Rogue 5 | Improved initiative | Danger sense
6 | Warblade 6 | Sangehirn 1 | Martial Stance: Assassin's stance | Improved Uncanny Dodge, Healing focus
7 | Warblade 7 | Sangehirn 2 | | Battle Cunning (damage), DR 1/-
8 | Warblade 8 | Psychic Rogue 6 | |
9 | Warblade 9 | Sangehirn 3 | Combat reflexes, Shadow Blade | Healing Touch
10 | Warblade 10 | Sangehirn 4 | | DR 2/-
11 | Warblade 11 | Psychic Rogue 7 | | Battle Skill (opposed checks), Sneak attack +3d6
12 | Warblade 12 | Sangehirn 5 | Imp. TWF | Fast healing 1
13 | Warblade 13 | Sangehirn 6 | Quick draw | DR 3/-
14 | Warblade 14 | Psychic Rogue 8 | |
15 | Warblade 15 | Sangehirn 7 | Greater TWF| Battle Mastery (AoO's), Fast healing 2
16 | Warblade 16 | Sangehirn 8 | | DR 4/-
17 | Warblade 17 | Psychic Rogue 9 | |
18 | Warblade 18 | Sangehirn 9 | Two weapon rend | Fast healing 3
19 | Warblade 19 | Sangehirn 10 | | DR 5/-
20 | Warblade 20 | Psychic rogue 10 | Iron Will | Stance Mastery, sneak attack 4d6[/table]

Offense
Full BAB, TWF with large amounts of bonus damage, and tiger claw manuevers allow additional attacks in that crucial first round. Can fall back upon very good selection of other manuevers when TWF cannot be used.

Defense
Fast healing, damage reduction, d12 hd, stealth, some defensive psionic powers

Non-Combat Capabilities
Trapfinding, utility psionic powers, can heal others, use psionic (magic) device

Weaknesses
Not so good against fear effects, lack of good healing until 7th level, markedly reduced effectiveness against enemies immune to criticals

Annarrkkii
2008-02-21, 10:02 AM
Duke, unless there's an errata I've missed, Metamagic Spell Trigger comes at 6th level for the Artificer, so your power break is a level earlier than you've got listed.

I'll be editing this post shortly to include my own build—the Terminator.

I took the challenge pretty literally, and made a character that—in combat, primarily—functions as almost an entire party. When I thought about a multi-role character, I thought about CPUs and multitasking. I like the idea of a warforged created to be able to multitask supremely efficiently—like a computer—and engage in multiple functions simultaneously.

Terminator:
Build: Warforged Artificer 9 / Telepath 11 // Transmuter 5 / Swiftblade 9 / Fighter 2 / Eldritch Knight 3 / Spellsword 1
Starting Ability Scores: STR 14 CON 14 DEX 10 INT 18 WIS 6 CHA 6
Cheese Points: 1 Uneven Telepath/Artificer leveling
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Breaks:
12th—Schism + Haste + Lion's Charge + Shock Trooper/Leap Attack/Glaive
17th—Oldschool Haste Cheese (added to above)

1. Telepath 1 // Transmuter 1 Mithral Body, Scribe Scroll {Sneak Attack +1d6, spell versatility}
2. Artificer 1° // Fighter 1 Dodge {artisan bonus, disable traps, item creation, self infusion}
3. Artificer 2 // Transmuter 2 Power Attack, Brew Potion
4. Telepath 2 // Transmuter 3 {Psicrystal}
5. Telepath 3 // Transmuter 4
6. Telepath 4 // Transmuter 5 Leap Attack
7. Telepath 5 // Eldritch Knight 1 Mobility, Expanded Knowledge (Psionic Lion's Charge)
8. Telepath 6 // Spellsword 1
9. Telepath 7 // Swiftblade 1 Improved Bull Rush, Spring Attack
10. Telepath 8 // Swiftblade 2
11. Artificer 3 // Swiftblade 3 Craft Wondrous Item {Sudden Casting, }
12. Artificer 4 // Swiftblade 4 Shock Trooper, Extend Spell {Arcane reflexes, craft homunculus}
13. Artificer 5 // Swiftblade 5 Craft Magic Arms and Armor {Evasive celerity, retain essence}
14. Artificer 6 // Swiftblade 6 {Fortified Hustle, Metamagic Spell Trigger}
15. Telepath 9 // Swiftblade 7 Bounding Assault, Combat Reflexes {Swift surge, +2/+10 ft.}
16. Artificer 7 // Swiftblade 8 Craft Wand {Dilligent Rapidity}
17. Artificer 8 // Swiftblade 9 Quicken Spell
18. Artificer 9 // Fighter 2 Cleave, Stand Still, Craft Rod
19. Telepath 10 // Eldritch Knight 2 Extend Power
20. Telepath 11 // Eldritch Knight 3
°Racial Substitution Level

Offense

The Terminator excels in combat, where he literally functions as a one-man party. At his peak, with two extra standard actions to spare per round, he can toss out a spell, manifest a power, then throw on Lion's Charge and full attack (with a +17/+12... BAB) with massive Power Attack drain on his AC, two-handed with his glaive. Standard follow-up with Stand Still and Combat Reflexes (not enough feats to get Knockdown without flaws). Twilight-enchanted armor and a level of Spellsword mean he has no spell failure to worry about, even in his mithral body. He typically enters combat by throwing up a swift-action Haste, manifests Extended Schism with his newly acquired standard action, and using his regular actions to change position, attack, or cast another spell he feels his necessary.

Given time to prepare, his routine includes a pumped Expansion to further increase his reach and combat capacity, a Toughen Construct infusion to Strengthen his AC. He heals any damage he's suffered with a bandolier full of home-brewed oils—the consumption of which takes him but one of 4 potential actions per round (well, 6 if you count a free action and a swift-action spell).

Defense

The best Defense is a good Offense. His AC tanks every time he uses his Lion's Charge routine, and his diversification means his HD are lower than an equivalent-level straight tank's would be, but his solid CON and his ability to buff himself for extended periods of time (infusions, Extended spells and powers) means he travels under the influence of numerous buffs and can take the heat. Combat Reflexes (in conjunction with a Belt of Magnificence or similar stat-boosting item) and Stand Still mean he can stave off enemies from trying to close (unless they can make DC 60 Reflex saves, of course). Additionally, 3 standard actions per round means that after two rounds of combat he has three of four buffs in place—probably all he needs. His hodgepodge of classes result in strong base saves—though low WIS drains his Will slightly. His homemade Cloak of Resistance helps, as well.

Between being a CL 15 Wizard and a 9th-level Artificer, he has a plethora of items to allow him whatever luxuries he needs. A few notable investments he can't provide himself include a thoroughly enchanted glaive and layers of enchantment for his armor.

Non-Combat Capabilities

His Artificer levels, augmented by a paltry few cross-class ranks, give him significant mechanical expertise when he encounters locks and traps. His heavily pumped Intelligence score allows him to defeat most traps. He doesn't Diplomance, though his Telepath levels allow him a few ranks in necessary people skills—but large and fearsome warforged aren't going to have much of an opportunity to exercise those types of skills. He often Alter Selfs into a more sociable form when such exchanges are necessary, but his tanked CHA makes that difficult.

Negotiation, on the everyday scale, is, of course, obsolete when you have 11 levels of Telepath at your disposal. Domination, Charming, Suggestions—his mental prowess allows him to get what he wants out of most interactions. He may not be able to charm the BBEG, but then again, what DM would let you diplomance your way out of the climactic fight? What player would want to? That's a situation where it's up with the Haste and Schism, and down to some good old-fashioned smackdown.

Weaknesses

Little or no ranged capability, unimpressive stealth (though easily and heavily enhanced through spells like Greater Invisibility and Silence), theoretically victimizeable Will save (though mind-affecting spells allow him two saves), unimpressive people skills when psionics aren't an option. Has to give up two schools to be a Transmuter—recommended would be Evocation or Enchantment (as they are replaceable by Telepath specialty), and Necromancy. Spell Versatility lets him have one spell from another school of up to 3rd level, so Abjuration is also an option, since you can grab Dispel Magic.

Chronos
2008-02-21, 11:17 AM
the only 'sad' thing about the class is that a mage no longer needs MoMF after 17th level if they have shapechange...with shapechange, they have everything MoMF has, and more...Not quite. Many of the forms a pure wizard could get via Shapechange would not normally allow spellcasting (at least, not spellcasting with verbal and/or somatic components). But so long as you have Natural Spell ("Wait, I'm confused. There are druids who don't take Natural Spell?"), you can cast in any form you Wild Shape into.


I think there are some PrC's for mages that you can get starting at 6th level that offer full casting progression in a class you have...chose wizard/whatever then at 6th -11th choose wizard/PrC, then at 11th you should have effectively 17th level spellcasting (5+6x2)...grab your metamagic rod and GO!It doesn't work that way. You could take such a prestige class on one side and wizard on the other, but then, at each level, you have to choose between adding one level to wizard spellcasting, or adding one level to wizard spellcasting. In other words, when you're at level 11, you're still casting as an 11th-level wizard, no matter how you work it. It might be possible to get level 9 spells earlier than level 17 with something like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest, but those don't just advance pre-existing spellcasting, they give you their own spellcasting progression.

Adumbration
2008-02-21, 11:38 AM
I personally think that Skippy wins, even though Squash Monster hasn't fully realized his potential. He's forgetting several extremely useful forms, such as Will-o-Wisp, that gives extraordinary flight and invisibility (greater, I think? It more of a suppresses the light than turns invisible).

And if you want to get your hypotethical DM kill you, get Frozen Wildshape and turn into a 12-headed cryohydra that casts as a 20th level wizard.

This whole build is versatility embodied, I think. It could be thought that that's just becouse I'm a fan of MoMF. :smallwink:

Squash Monster
2008-02-21, 11:54 AM
It doesn't work that way. You could take such a prestige class on one side and wizard on the other, but then, at each level, you have to choose between adding one level to wizard spellcasting, or adding one level to wizard spellcasting. In other words, when you're at level 11, you're still casting as an 11th-level wizard, no matter how you work it. It might be possible to get level 9 spells earlier than level 17 with something like Sublime Chord or Ur-Priest, but those don't just advance pre-existing spellcasting, they give you their own spellcasting progression.This man is correct. And to the best of my knowledge, there's only one arcane class that functions like Ur-Priest. It's Beholder Mage, which requires that you're a beholder. It's possible to get into that by level 5 by getting a wizard to Polymorph Any Object you and using some psionic ability that lets you get a form's abilities, but the net result is that you get 9th level casting at level 14. I'm not going to make a build that doesn't mature until 14. (Do note however that in non-gestalt you can Mystic Theurge this with Ur-Priest and get 9th level arcane and divine casting at level 16. It's called LoP's Dirty Trick #1, I believe).


I personally think that Skippy wins, even though Squash Monster hasn't fully realized his potential. He's forgetting several extremely useful forms, such as Will-o-Wisp, that gives extraordinary flight and invisibility (greater, I think? It more of a suppresses the light than turns invisible).

And if you want to get your hypotethical DM kill you, get Frozen Wildshape and turn into a 12-headed cryohydra that casts as a 20th level wizard.

This whole build is versatility embodied, I think. It could be thought that that's just becouse I'm a fan of MoMF. :smallwink:Thank you. Yeah, there are tons of forms that I didn't cover, but you have to understand that Wizards has published a dozen books dedicated entirely to new forms for the MoMF :smallwink:.

Ganurath
2008-02-21, 12:21 PM
...Are we allowed to repost entries from previous competitions if we feel they qualify for this one as well? If so, is it allowed and/or prefered that we change the entry name?

Fuzzy_Juan
2008-02-21, 07:06 PM
Ahh, it was my understanding of Gestalt that you selected the best HD, BaB, saves, and skill points, but when it came to 'special features' you gained the special abilities of each class. Since spellcasting was a 'special feature' as was the '+1 level to an existing caster class' ability, I just assumed that they stacked. Just like if you got a bonus feat from one class and a bonus feat from another at the same level, or if you were in a class that also added sneak attack bonus...it would stack and not be one or the other.

Was this clairified anywhere or changed cause I thought I read the UA entry pretty carefully.

Squash Monster
2008-02-21, 09:06 PM
To quote the Gestalt rules:
"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

This stops all the horrible sneak attack stacking schemes that people keep trying to pull, among other things.

Ganurath
2008-02-21, 09:29 PM
To quote the Gestalt rules:
"Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class."

This stops all the horrible sneak attack stacking schemes that people keep trying to pull, among other things.Of course, it won't put a stop to the rogue ninjas out there. Accursed deviant shinobi...

Draz74
2008-02-21, 09:58 PM
Of course, it won't put a stop to the rogue ninjas out there. Accursed deviant shinobi...

It will if I'm the DM. :smallamused:

Zincorium
2008-02-21, 10:44 PM
Rogue//Ninja is a poor strategy anyway. Anything crit-immune is going to make your day rather unpleasant, and you don't have the attack bonus or hit points to survive a prolonged fight. Ranger//Ninja isn't a bad idea, however.

UglyPanda
2008-02-21, 10:58 PM
A fairly bland build from a fairly bland person.

Name: Bob
Build: Rogue 1/Bard 19//Lesser Aasimar Cleric 20
Starting scores: STR 14, DEX 10, CON 10, INT 14, WIS 16, CHA 16
Power break: Level 6 (Divine Metamagic)
Cheese points: At least three (Two flaws and dependence on nightsticks, among other things)

{table=head]Level | Left Class | Right Class | Feats | Special Abilities
1|Rogue 1 |Cleric 1 |Power Attack, Jack of All Trades, Extend Spell, Shaky (Flaw), Weak Will (Flaw) |Turn Undead, Luck Domain, Sneak attack +1d6, Trapfinding
2|Bard 1 |Cleric 2 ||Bardic Knack (PHBII), Bardic music, Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1
3|Bard 2 |Cleric 3 |Persistant Spell|
4|Bard 3 |Cleric 4 ||Inspire competence
5|Bard 4 |Cleric 5 ||
6|Bard 5 |Cleric 6 |Divine Metamagic|
7|Bard 6 |Cleric 7 ||Suggestion
8|Bard 7 |Cleric 8 ||
9|Bard 8 |Cleric 9 |Divine Spell Power or Extra Turning|Inspire courage +2
10|Bard 9 |Cleric 10 ||Inspire greatness
11|Bard 10 |Cleric 11 ||
12|Bard 11 |Cleric 12 |Extra Turning|
13|Bard 12 |Cleric 13 ||Song of freedom
14|Bard 13 |Cleric 14 ||
15|Bard 14 |Cleric 15 |Domain Spontaneity|Inspire courage + 3
16|Bard 15 |Cleric 16 ||Inspire heroics
17|Bard 16 |Cleric 17 ||
18|Bard 17 |Cleric 18 |Extra Turning|
19|Bard 18 |Cleric 19 ||Mass suggestion
20|Bard 19 |Cleric 20 ||
[/table]

Combat It's a CoDzilla with some self-buffs due to being a bard. Decent saves.

Non-combat Jack of all trades allows you to use any skill untrained. Bardic knack lets you use any skill that can be used untrained as if you had half your bard level worth of ranks in it. The bard spell Improvisation gives you four (Caster level)/2 bonuses to stuff. This means that he gets at least +18 to every skill. Moment of Prescience becomes available at level 15.

Weaknesses Getting buffs dispelled if you don't have a ring of counterspells. Trapfinding abilities aren't useful until high levels. Possesses MAD, dependent on nightsticks.

Chronos
2008-02-22, 12:12 AM
I've added Snake on a Helicopter's spell list. It's a complete spell list, this time, because it's tough to try to cram everything needed into a single class's spells known list.

I'm also pondering whether I ought to include a level of just plain sorcerer, to get a familiar who can share all my buffs. Even a familiar can be a formidable combatant, when it gets +24 to Strength and DR/Adamantine and evil.

namo
2008-02-22, 02:41 AM
No Factotum//Archivist ? How disappointing...

The problem with MoMF is that Shapechange obsoletes it. Heck, Enhance Wildshape (SC) gives you one of its best class features.

avr
2008-02-23, 04:57 AM
Name: Army in a can

Idea: Crusaders are hard enough to kill. Add in warforged immunities and artificer repair infusions and you have an army in a can.

Classes: Artificer 20 // Crusader 20
Starting Ability Scores: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 6
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: 1
Power Break: Level 12 - Improved homunculus makes homunculi useful. Wand Mastery & Craft Staff arrive at this level also.

Warforged: {Warforged traits, +2 Con, -2 Wis & Cha}
1: Artificer 1 // Crusader 1: Mithral Body {Artificer Knowledge, Artisan Bonus, Disable Traps, Item Creation, Scribe Scroll, Furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5}
2: Artificer 2 // Crusader 2: {Brew Potion, Indomitable soul[n/a]}
3: Artificer 3 // Crusader 3: Stone Power {Craft Wondrous Item, zealous surge[reroll save 1/day]}
4: Artificer 4 // Crusader 4: Bonus feat: Silent Spell {Craft homonculous, steely resolve 10}
5: Artificer 5 // Crusader 5: {Craft Magic Arms and Armour, retain essence}
6: Artificer 6 // Crusader 6: Blade Meditation (Stone Dragon) {Craft Wand, Smite 1/day}
7: Artificer 7 // Crusader 7: {Metamagic Spell Trigger}
8: Artificer 8 // Crusader 8: Bonus feat: Attune Magic Weapon {Steely resolve 15}
9: Artificer 9 // Crusader 9: Adaptive Style {Craft Rod}
10: Artificer 10 // Crusader 10: {Die Hard}
11: Artificer 11 // Crusader 11: {Metamagic spell completion}
12: Artificer 12 // Crusader 12: Improved Homunculus, Bonus feat: Wand Mastery {Craft Staff, steely resolve 20}
13: Artificer 13 // Crusader 13: {Skill mastery [Spellcraft, UMD], Mettle}
14: Artificer 14 // Crusader 14: {Forge Ring}
15: Artificer 15 // Crusader 15: Martial Study (Diamond Defence [Diamond Mind 8])
16: Artificer 16 // Crusader 16: Bonus feat: Quicken Spell {Steely resolve 25}
17: Artificer 17 // Crusader 17
18: Artificer 18 // Crusader 18: Improved Fortification {Smite 2/day}
19: Artificer 19 // Crusader 19
20: Artificer 20 // Crusader 20: Bonus feat: Extra Rings {Steely resolve 30}

Offensive: If you're on solid ground, the Stone Dragon discipline takes care of all your offensive needs. If not, make sure you have built a flying homunculus so that you can take full advantage of White Raven manoeuvres. If you or your homunculi can find out what you're up against a few minutes before you fight them, you can buff yourself to the gills.

Defensive: You have good Fort saves, fair Will saves, and Mettle. Warforged immunities with Improved Fortification and Devoted Spirit strikes should help settle most other problems. You can find and deal with traps as well as any rogue. Steely resolve gives you a round to save your butt if damage becomes a problem.

Weaknesses: Touch AC could be a problem. Reflex saves are mostly vs. hit point damage, which you should be able to deal with but may be a problem where there are other effects. Ability damage to Charisma or Wisdom is perhaps a reason to dump these stats less than I did here.

MorkaisChosen
2008-02-23, 10:54 AM
This here is my first attempt, but bear with me on it...

Name: FlayerMan

Idea: Who needs to be able to fight when you can stun everyone and send a Charmed giribbly to kill them? Actually, I can fight too, but it gets blood on my robes. Looking at Master Specialist, it's debatable whether the abilities count for spell-likes. Of course, I'm debating that they are...

Build: Mind Flayer RHD 8/ Duellist 10/ Monk 2 // LA7/ Enchanter 3/ Master Specialist 10
Minimum Playable Level: 8
Base stats: Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 15
Modified for Flayeriness (two +1s from HD): Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 23
1-7: RHD // LA
8: RHD 8 // Enchanter 1
9: Monk 1 // Enchanter 2
10: Monk 2 // Enchanter 3
11: Duelist 1 // Master Specialist 1
12: Duelist 2 // Master Specialist 2 (+1 Cha)
13: Duelist 3 // Master Specialist 3
14: Duelist 4 // Master Specialist 4
15: Duelist 5 // Master Specialist 5
16: Duelist 6 // Master Specialist 6 (+1 Cha)
17: Duelist 7 // Master Specialist 7
18: Duelist 8 // Master Specialist 8
19: Duelist 9 // Master Specialist 9
20: Duelist 10 // Master Specialist 10 (+1 Cha)

Offense: Decent BAB (6 for Flayer levels, 1 for Monk and 10 for Duellist gives 17) and Weapon Finesse allow FlayerMan to dish out some hurt reasonably well, but he's nothing special there. Well, unless you count DC20 Will saves (and that's at Level 8 without any magical enhancements, they're DC22 at 20th level) against Mind Blast and Charm Monster, which can be used at will, and depending on interpretation, can be improved by the Master Specialist abilities. Basic offensive strategy is much like the one in the MM- stand off, Mind Blast to stun people, send in Charmed monsters to beat up anything that remains, then eat the brains of my stunned victims. Monk provides Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes, allowing all kinds of tasty goodness (4 AoOs a turn, and the +4 to grapple checks is invaluable for brain-eating on non-stunned foes).

Defenses: AC22 at level 9, but then we add the Duelist levels. With an Int of 22, AC increases by one per level to 28 at Duellist 6. Very mobile in combat with Levitate at will and Mobility and Enhanced Mobility adding +8 to AC versus AoOs for moving. Evasion and good Ref saves (+18) protect from AoE spells, amazing Will saves stop other effects, and the Fort saves aren't as good as the rest but won't be used very much (would FlayerMan get in range of a melee attack? No. Does a ranged attack have that much of a chance of hitting? Well, not if we put people in the way. What's the SR for stopping any nasty poisonous spells from hurting me? ECL+17.)

Non-combat capabilities: Charm the excrement out of everything, maxed Bluff (but I can charm them to believe me or use Suggestion), more Charms, some at-will charming, Levitate, and whatever abilities the random monsters I happen to have charmed at the time can give.

Weaknesses: Fort saves are quite low, although I'd tend to avoid anything that can make me take one- send the minions to kill them or Mind Blast them. Undead are a big problem, since basically all the abilities are mind-affecting. The best bet here is- go on, take a guess... Yep, throw things at them until they fall over. Things can be anything from small rocks to Ogres.

Cheese points: I've got a 2-level dip to Monk which would take some justifying, and the whole Mind Flayer thing could also take some justification. Also, Master Specialist/ Duelist levels. By the letter of the rules that's 1, because it's not a 1-level dip and it's a race not a template, but I think it's more like 3...

Squash Monster
2008-02-23, 12:09 PM
No Factotum//Archivist ? How disappointing...

The problem with MoMF is that Shapechange obsoletes it. Heck, Enhance Wildshape (SC) gives you one of its best class features.Do people not play levels lower than 17 nowadays?

Chronos
2008-02-25, 08:57 PM
I tweaked Snake on a Helicopter a bit, giving him a sorcerer level so he can call a familiar (who becomes pretty awesome, with shared buff spells).

And a new entry, inspired by Nathan from the previous contest:

Name: Dorothy
Build: Whisper Gnome Warblade 6/Beguiler +1/Warblade +2/Beguiler +1/Warblade +2/Beguiler +1/Warblade +2/Beguiler +1/Warblade +4 // Beguiler 6/Rainbow Servant 10/Unseen Seer 2/Beguiler +2
Minimum playable level: 1
Power Break: 16, with access to cleric spells
Cheese points: 2 (juggling classes to maintain full casting, ignoring multiclassing penalties)


1: Warblade 1 // Beguiler 1
2: Warblade 2 // Beguiler 2
3: Warblade 3 // Beguiler 3
4: Warblade 4 // Beguiler 4
5: Warblade 5 // Beguiler 5
6: Warblade 6 // Beguiler 6
7: Beguiler 7 // Rainbow Servant 1 {Detect Evil at will, Domain Access: Good}
8: Warblade 7 // Rainbow Servant 2
9: Warblade 8 // Rainbow Servant 3
10: Beguiler 8 // Rainbow Servant 4 {Wings, Domain Access: Air}
11: Warblade 9 // Rainbow Servant 5
12: Warblade 10 // Rainbow Servant 6
13: Beguiler 9 // Rainbow Servant 7 {Detect Chaos at will, Domain Access: Law}
14: Warblade 11 // Rainbow Servant 8
15: Warblade 12 // Rainbow Servant 9
16: Beguiler 10 // Rainbow Servant 10 {Detect Thoughts at will, clerical spell access}
17: Warblade 13 // Unseen Seer 1
18: Warblade 14 // Unseen Seer 2 {Advanced Learning, Silent Spell}
19: Warblade 15 // Beguiler 11
20: Warblade 16 // Beguiler 12

The core of this build is applying Rainbow Servant to a full-list spontaneous caster. The 10th-level ability of Rainbow Servant adds all cleric spells to Dorothy's class spell list, and as a Beguiler, she can spontaneously cast any spell on her class spell list. So although she lacks a few wizard spells, she's never caught unprepared for any situation.

I could have used a prestige class for the last two Beguiler levels, but most PrCs don't give as many skill points as Beguiler does, and this build is already short on skill points, for my tastes, with six levels at only 2+int. I could have stayed in Unseen Seer, but there's not much advantage past level 2, since I don't have any source of precision damage to increment, and I didn't want to decrease my CL for non-divination spells. I'm not counting Unseen Seer as dual-progression, because of that lack of precision damage.

I could have put pretty much anything in the 16 levels on the other side, but went for Warblade, since the right side is mostly missing melee capability, and it synergizes well with Int-based spellcasting. I could also have replaced some of the Beguiler levels on the left with more Warblade, but I prefer CL 20 and IL 18 to CL 18 and IL 19. I could also have used a Warblade PrC for the last two or four levels, but I don't know what good choices would be for that.

Weakness: Until CL 16, when clerical spell access kicks in, Dorothy has no native healing or other typically-divine magic, so she'll have to make do by UMD-ing wands and scrolls for healing and removing status afflictions.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-25, 10:47 PM
Here is a man who wanted, more than anything else, to be a champion of good. Sadly, the Paladins kicked him out of their order due to his infernal heretige. Saddned that he was denied entry to such an order for the sad fact of his birth, he was instead embraced by the Crusaders, who take any who are willing to fight for their cause. He learns to use his infernal heretige for the side of Good, and now hunts down evil wherever it may lurk.

Name Juan
Build: Crusader20 // Rogue2/Warlock8/Enlightened Soul 10
Minimum level to be effective: 1st.
Cheese Points: 0. Maybe 1 if you consider the Rogue2 dip to be a cheeze point.

Capabilities:

Invocations known:

Least: Dark One's Own Luck, Devil's Sight, Darkness, Hedious Blow
Lesser: Flee The Scene, Eldrich Chain (from Enlightened Soul)

Let's see. Crusader. Tanking? Check. Self-healing. Double-Check. Skillmonkey? Rogue levels plus Warlock levels. Check. Arcane? Check and double check. With maxed ranks of UMD, there isn't a magic item out there he can't use pretty much automatically, just by taking 10 on the UMD check. Plus his own repitoire of invocations.

This guy has No buttons from hell. He can boost any given save by his Cha mod. He has both Mettle and Evasion. And his only 'poor' save is Reflex, but even that has a boost with two levels of Rogue. If he knows what's going to be chunked at him, he can boost the given save. Mostly, he'll be boosting his reflex save, because his Will saves are already boosted thanks to Crusader, and his Fort save is not something he'll be worrying much about.

Let's talk Immunities. First off, Death Ward. This means no death effects, stat/level drains, or negative energy effects. Means things like Enervation bounce right off. Flee The Scene means effective immunity to grapple cheeze, when combined with Flight, this means he doesn't melee unless HE wants to. He can always just fly and blast stuff with his 9d6 Eldrich Blast until they fall over. Immunity to Fear, thanks to Enlightened One. Not that he'd be worried about fear effects anyways with his high Will save plus his Cha to will save from Crusader, but immunity is always nicer than insanely high save.

Of course, being a full Crusader, when he chooses to get into melee, he'll be almost impossible to stop. He heals every time he hits you, heals more when he hits you if he gets that Strike. He's got Adaptive Style to make SURE he's got that strike before he goes into melee. Oh yea, you DO hit him, you're gonna get hit back. Really hard. Then he heals it back up.

But wait, there's more! Rogue levels means Trapfinding. So congratulations, he can likely spot traps and disarm them before they hurt him. Not to mention being able to pick locks. Or just use his Eldrich Blast to blow stuff open. Either way.

Oh, and please, buff up before attacking him. He just loves that. Particularly, buff up with high level buffs. Drop a Mind Blank on yourself. Go ahead. That's even more healing. If he wanted to earn 10k cheeze points, he'd pick up Leadership and pick a Warlock as a buddy for literally infinite healing. His buddy drops an Invocation on something, he strips it and heals. Rinse, wash, repeat as needed. Fortunately, I'm not doing that here, but still, fighting any sort of evil outsider buffed to hell is going to find their buffs actually helping Juan more than them. Just before they end up Dimensional Anchored into place and hit for 9d6+9.

Now then, how does he function in society? You know... everyone else he has to interact with? As a Party Face, he's not bad. Pick up some Diplomacy early on as a Rogue. His Tongues ability means he can speak with anyone. This, plus his high Charisma, means he's a likable kind of guy.

Now then, let's talk damage output. First off, Crusader. That alone means you're in for a world of pain. But then let's tack on Hedious Blow for an extra 9d6 damage while we're at it. Devil's Sight + Darkness generally means he gets to add +1d6 sneak attack unless the thing has Blindsense of some kind. Keep in mind, Darkvision doesn't help vs magical darkness, but his Devil's Sight does. Okay, fine, it's more of an insult than extra damage at these levels, but hey, every little bit helps. But even better, this gives him a 50% concealment that is darn hard to overcome. This means even more survivability.

In short, he's hard to stop. He's got tools for every situation out there. What he can't do with his invocations and maneuvers, he can pick up magic items for, clerical or arcane, thanks to his UMD.He's got D10 hit die and +20 BAB thanks to Crusader. He's immune to several 'save or screwed', almost impossible to affect with ANY sort of 'save or anything' thanks to Dark One's Luck and Evasion + Mettle, hard to hit, hard to hurt even if you do hit, and he's going to pack a whollop when he hits back.

Party of Juan. Check please.

Beren One-Hand
2008-02-26, 01:00 AM
Name: The Zeleknator
Build: Inevitable (Zelekhut) / Bloodhound 5 // Battle Sorcerer 5 / Mage of the Arcane Order 7 / Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil 7 / Archmage 1
Starting Ability Scores: STR 24, DEX 14, CON -, INT 14, WIS 14, CHA 20
Cheese Points: 7 (2 for the required flaws, 5 for the doubled up prestige classes)
Minimum Playable Level: 15
Power Break: 21 when you get Epic Spellcasting... Otherwise there are no real powerbreaks as this build is only playable for 6 pre-epic levels.

{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | Special Abilities
1 | Battle Sorcerer | LA +1 | Metamagic Specialist
2 | Battle Sorcerer | LA +2 | -
3 | Battle Sorcerer | LA +3 | -
4 | Battle Sorcerer | LA +4 | -
5 | Battle Sorcerer | LA +5 | -
6 | Mage of the Arcane Order | LA +6 | Spellpool I
7 | Mage of the Arcane Order | LA +7 | Metamagic Feat
8 | Mage of the Arcane Order | Construct HD 1 | Bonus Language
9 | Mage of the Arcane Order | Construct HD 2 | Spellpool II
10 | Mage of the Arcane Order | Construct HD 3 | -
11 | Mage of the Arcane Order | Construct HD 4 | Bonus Language
12 | Mage of the Arcane Order | Construct HD 5 | Spellpool III
13 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Construct HD 6 | Warding 1/day, Unimpeachable Abjuration, Red Veil
14 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Construct HD 7 | Unanswerable Strike +2, Orange Veil
15 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Construct HD 8 | Warding 2/day, Yellow Veil, Construct Traits, Spell-like Abilities, Damage Reduction 10/chaotic, Darkvision 60 ft., Fast Healing 5, Low-light Vision, Spell Resistance 20
16 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Bloodhound | Reactive Warding, Green Veil, Mark, Swift Tracker
17 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Bloodhound | Warding 3/day, Blue Veil, Nonlethal Force, Ready and Waiting
18 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Bloodhound | Unanswerable Strike +4, Double Warding, Indigo Veil, Bring 'em Back Alive, Tenacious Pursuit
19 | Initiate of the Seven-fold Veil | Bloodhound | Warding 4/day, Kaleidoscopic Doom, Violet Veil, Hunter's Dedication, Move Like the Wind
20 | Archmage | Bloodhound | High Arcana, Crippling Strike, Track the Trackless[/table]

Final Base Attack Bonus: +15 (using fractional BAB)
Final Base Fortitude Save: +7 (using fractional saves and only counting the +2 good bonus once)
Final Base Reflex Save: +7 (using fractional saves and counting the +2 good bonus from Seeker of the Misty Isle)
Final Base Will Save: +12 (using fractional saves and only counting the +2 good bonus once)

Final Base Attack Bonus: +15 (using normal BAB)
Final Base Fortitude Save: +6 (using normal saves)
Final Base Reflex Save: +6 (using normal saves)
Final Base Will Save: +16 (using normal saves)

Required Feats
Must have 2 flaws (choose any two)
Flaw 1 Feat: Arcane Preparation
Flaw 2 Feat: Any Metamagic Feat (Probably Quicken Spell)
Level 1: Cooperative Spell
Level 3: Skill Focus {spellcraft)
Level 6: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
Level 9: Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
Level 12: Track
Level 15: Endurance
Level 18: Spell Focus (Any other school)

Special Abilities to Note
Dispel Magic (at will) coupled with Mastery of Counterspelling is a fun combination to pull off, just note that you'll have to use quickened spells (or rely on a Warding or two) to attack anybody in the rounds you try this.

Most Zelekhuts are charged with hunting down those who would deny justice — especially those who flee to escape punishment. The Zeleknator specifically hunts those who transgress the members of the Arcane Order. An expert tracker, it uses a combination of natural skill and magic to find fugitives wherever they may hide. The manner of its exclusive prey required it to master the fundimental aspects of magic - and its connection to the college allows it to employ any spell known to the school in the pursuit of justice.

The Zeleknator may initially appear rather non-threatening—but when it is about to enter combat, it can cause two spiked chains to spring forth from its forearms as a free action. In similar fashion, it can cause a pair of golden metallic wings to emerge from its back. Retracting the chains or the wings is also a free action.

The Zeleknator’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will — clairaudience/clairvoyance, dimensional anchor, dispel magic, fear (DC 21), hold person (DC 20), locate creature, true seeing; 3/day — hold monster (DC 22), mark of justice; 1/week — lesser geas (DC 21). Caster level 8th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Skills: A zelekhut has a +4 racial bonus on Search and Sense Motive checks.
Feats: Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat.

Party Roles
Combat and Protection: Well, dual-weilded spiked chains that are natural weapons means lots of range for his attacks as well as being useful in subduing his target.

Pysical Skills: Traps aren't much of problem with at will Dispel Magic, Damage Reduction 10/chaotic, Spell Resistance 20 and Fast Healing 5. Inaccessable areas aren't a problem with a natural fly speed. Locate Creature as well as its tracking ability allows it to pinpoint where its target is.

Social Skills: With the myrad Enchantment spells at its disposal, it can force any reluctant creature to aid it.

Knowledge Skills: With the myrad Divination spells at its disposal, it can generate any answers necessary for its hunt.

With the ultimate utility poolbelt it can pull spells to cover any lacking skills needed for the mission.
Breaking and Entering? Knock
Unresponsive witnesses? Charm, et. al.
Unknown protections? Analyze Dweomer
Etc.

Healing: With both Fast Healing 5 and access to Repair X Damage spells, it has little to fear the damage that manages to overcome his damage reduction.

Downtime: While most creatures must prepare a safe location to rest each night, as a construct it can keep going non-stop in dangerous circumstances. Its spellcasting will be impared, but its spell-like and supernatural abilities could be relied upon without rest if necessary.

Draz74
2008-02-26, 01:56 AM
Doobee Delver the Fearless has been edited, refined, and completed. Skills and remaining powers detailed.

Beren One-Hand
2008-02-26, 03:38 AM
For a fun entry....

Name: Army of One... really... just ignore all those cute, fluffy creatures.
Build: Human Martial 20 (using the ToB Martial developed on the wizard's boards) // Fey-linked Bard 2 (Swaping inspire songs for animal companion, wild empathy, & resist nature's lure)/ Dragon Shaman 3 / Beastmaster 10 / Fey-linked Bard +5

Build Basics
Use the Dragon Shaman and Martial aura's along with White Raven manuevers to enhance your hoard of squishy animals (thanks to Beastmaster).

Save the Natural Bond feat for one of your Beastmaster only animals, giving you an effective druid level of 20, 10, 4, & 1

For bonus points take the Army of One feat, allowing you to recover your manuevers as a swift action after successfully demoralizing an opponent w/ Intimidate.

Draz74
2008-02-26, 10:47 AM
I was hoping someone would use the Kobold Cleric idea.

Kobold Cloistered Cleric 15/PrC 5//Swordsage 10/War Mind 10 with Dragonwrought feats and (of course) the Kobold domain? Anyone for a last-minute entry? I don't have time myself in the next couple hours. :smallfrown:

Draz74
2008-02-27, 03:35 PM
So, um, voting? Or are we waiting until the voting for Challenge III ends?

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 03:55 PM
Why does UMD get 1,000,000 cheese points, and DMM gets none?

Chronos
2008-02-27, 07:04 PM
Because UMD makes the build itself irrelevant, while DMM does not. A UMD-based build will look almost exactly the same if it gets access to the skill through Rogue, or Bard, or Beguiler, or Factotum, or whatever, while with DMM, you still need to have the spells to apply it to.

Note, though, that DMM is probably still worth cheese points, since it usually implies dependence on nightsticks.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 07:06 PM
DMM is total cheese. Virtually every other build in these challenges including the gish builds uses it. It's worse than UMD. At least UMD requires gold to run.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-27, 08:19 PM
UMD abuse isn't just using the skill, it's replacing every class exclusively through items. That way you can be Warlock4/Rogue16 and cast every spell in the book via items. You can Divine Power/Righteous Might yourself, with Improved Invisibility, Mind Blank, and just about every other useful buff out there.

It's worse than DMM, because DMM requires multiple feats to pull off at all. Not to mention that DMM cheeze (if you're talking Divine Power/Righteous Might) really isn't all that good, when you look at it. You get +5 BAB, a size increase, DR/evil (or good), and some Str bonuses. In exchange, you've blown nearly all your feats to pull it off, not to mention blowing all your turn attempts (or a dependency on Nightsticks).

Dode
2008-02-27, 10:44 PM
"Gestalt Build Challenge"

An oxymoron.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 11:00 PM
UMD abuse isn't just using the skill, it's replacing every class exclusively through items. That way you can be Warlock4/Rogue16 and cast every spell in the book via items. You can Divine Power/Righteous Might yourself, with Improved Invisibility, Mind Blank, and just about every other useful buff out there.

It's worse than DMM, because DMM requires multiple feats to pull off at all. Not to mention that DMM cheeze (if you're talking Divine Power/Righteous Might) really isn't all that good, when you look at it. You get +5 BAB, a size increase, DR/evil (or good), and some Str bonuses. In exchange, you've blown nearly all your feats to pull it off, not to mention blowing all your turn attempts (or a dependency on Nightsticks).

Oh boohoo, I burned a feat so I could get greater visage of the deity all day long. Boohoo, I'm out of a weak class ability that I left behind when I multiclassed out of cleric 15 levels ago!

If it wasn't so goddamn good, we wouldn't see every build with divine caster levels using it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-27, 11:06 PM
Oh boohoo, I burned a feat so I could get greater visage of the deity all day long. Boohoo, I'm out of a weak class ability that I left behind when I multiclassed out of cleric 15 levels ago!

If it wasn't so goddamn good, we wouldn't see every build with divine caster levels using it.

Try four feats. Persist has it's own requirements, and DMM: Persist requires Persist. Plus Extra Turning if you actually expect to pull it off.

UMD, on the other hand, only requires one skill maxed out. From the class with the MOST number of skill points in the freekin' game. Anything DMM can do, UMD can do better, if you have enough cash. And let's face it, if you're abusing UMD, you've probably got enough money-making schemes to cover it. Like making Walls of Iron from scrolls and chopping them up for scrap iron.

Cuddly
2008-02-27, 11:24 PM
Try four feats. Persist has it's own requirements, and DMM: Persist requires Persist. Plus Extra Turning if you actually expect to pull it off.

UMD, on the other hand, only requires one skill maxed out. From the class with the MOST number of skill points in the freekin' game. Anything DMM can do, UMD can do better, if you have enough cash. And let's face it, if you're abusing UMD, you've probably got enough money-making schemes to cover it. Like making Walls of Iron from scrolls and chopping them up for scrap iron.

Domains. Prestige classes. It's really not that hard. Pump charisma. And let's face it, if you're abusing DMM, you're going to have greater consumptive field and shapechange, too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-27, 11:55 PM
Domains. Prestige classes. It's really not that hard. Pump charisma. And let's face it, if you're abusing DMM, you're going to have greater consumptive field and shapechange, too.

1) How are you going to have both of those spells in memory if you ditched Cleric fifteen levels ago? For that matter, how can you have Divine Power, Righteous Might, or Greater Visage of the Diety?

2) How are you able to scrounge up 8 turn attempts per use of DMM Persist? Divine Power and Righteous Might already make up 16 turn attempts. You just added another 16.

3) I can do the exact same thing with a UMD abuser and scrolls. Only I'd also have a lot of sneak attack dice, and a hell of a lot more skills.

Zincorium
2008-02-28, 12:15 AM
1) How are you going to have both of those spells in memory if you ditched Cleric fifteen levels ago? For that matter, how can you have Divine Power, Righteous Might, or Greater Visage of the Diety?

Prestige classes that progress spellcasting. You know, the ones that everybody takes. Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that's what he meant by multiclassing out of cleric. I could be wrong though.


2) How are you able to scrounge up 8 turn attempts per use of DMM Persist? Divine Power and Righteous Might already make up 16 turn attempts. You just added another 16.

7 per. 1 + the adjustment to the spell.

Charisma of 20 (14 plus an item of +6) already gets you one, and then you take extra turning and use nightsticks


3) I can do the exact same thing with a UMD abuser and scrolls. Only I'd also have a lot of sneak attack dice, and a hell of a lot more skills.

No, no I don't think you can. Not without spending a heck of a lot more gold and wasting turns casting the scrolls in question. Because last I checked, you couldn't get metamagic'd scrolls (again, I could be wrong).

Not that UMD isn't extremely powerful, BUT it only lets take abilities that are accessible via magic items you can afford.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-28, 12:21 AM
No, no I don't think you can. Not without spending a heck of a lot more gold and wasting turns casting the scrolls in question. Because last I checked, you couldn't get metamagic'd scrolls (again, I could be wrong).

Not that UMD isn't extremely powerful, BUT it only lets take abilities that are accessible via magic items you can afford.

If you can use Cracksticks, I can use infinite money loops like Wall of Iron scrolls to chop up for scrap metal. Money problem solved. Time Stop fixes buff time problems. Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect ensures I'm not surprised. Ever.

In short, I can pull off every ounce of Batman cheeze... as a Rogue. Have a nice day.

Cuddly
2008-02-28, 12:21 AM
1) How are you going to have both of those spells in memory if you ditched Cleric fifteen levels ago? For that matter, how can you have Divine Power, Righteous Might, or Greater Visage of the Diety?

Prestige classes. In gestalt, you could use incantatrix to progress cleric casting without losing caster levels, for instance.


2) How are you able to scrounge up 8 turn attempts per use of DMM Persist? Divine Power and Righteous Might already make up 16 turn attempts. You just added another 16.

7 turn attempts/ use, not 8.

Anyway, play an elf and use a Psychic Reformation (either pay for it do it yourself) to lose the racial feats and gain extra turning.


3) I can do the exact same thing with a UMD abuser and scrolls. Only I'd also have a lot of sneak attack dice, and a hell of a lot more skills.

Scroll costs add up, and you can still only use 1/round, and not do anything else, like attack or cast another spell. And you also have to use combat buffs to buff in combat. The saves and caster levels of your spells will also be weak. If you went artificer, you could make something better.

Zincorium
2008-02-28, 12:47 AM
If you can use Cracksticks, I can use infinite money loops like Wall of Iron scrolls to chop up for scrap metal.

Right. Because there's a market for infinite amounts of iron. And all DMs automatically outlaw nightsticks.

The two aren't equivalent. At worst, nightsticks are spending money to replicate a feat, exactly the same as a ring of evasion (admittedly much cheaper).

Duke of URL
2008-02-28, 09:12 AM
Voting now open! Please vote in-thread for your favorites (even if you didn't submit an entry yourself) from the following list:

"Skippy, the Prepared" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3963489&postcount=9)
"Doobee Delver the Fearless" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964265&postcount=14)
"Shao Wing" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964266&postcount=15)
"Captain Yoren d'Denith" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3964954&postcount=17)
"Snake on a Helicopter" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3965257&postcount=18)
"Mind over Medic" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3966725&postcount=23)
"Terminator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3967086&postcount=24)
"Bob" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3970047&postcount=34)
"Army in a can" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974200&postcount=37)
"FlayerMan" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3974935&postcount=38)
"Dorothy" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3985935&postcount=40)
"Juan" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3986418&postcount=41)
"The Zeleknator" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3986929&postcount=42)


The categories are:

Best Solo Adventurer: The build that best meets the overall challenge goals as stated in the original post

Best Combatant: The solo build that will stand up best in combat situations

Best Dungeon Delver: The solo build best designed to deal with non-combat hazards such as traps, puzzles, and secret/hidden objects

Best Socializer: The solo build best capable of handling social situations/encounters

Huh?: The most unusual build

Gouda: The build most likely to be met with immediate banning by your DM

There is no "Party animal" award this time, for the obvious reasons.

Voting is open until noon PST on Monday, March 3, 2008.

Mr. Friendly
2008-02-28, 09:25 AM
Best Solo Adventurer: Doobee Delver the Fearless

Best Combatant: Tough Call, but Skippy, the Prepared would be my guess.

Best Dungeon Delver: Doobee Delver the Fearless

Best Socializer: Looks like Doobee Delver the Fearless again

Huh?: The Terminator. I like his style and he is pretty spiffy.

Gouda: Skippy the Prepared; he isn't really "cheesy" per se, just that he would be auto-banned by my DM in roughly 1/100ths of a second.

Draz74
2008-02-28, 01:36 PM
There is no "Party animal" award this time, for the obvious reasons.

Well, there still could be. It would just be, "which one would you like to play the most?"

I'll cast my other votes later, but Gouda is an easy choice this time.

Gouda: Dorothy.
Sure, using Rainbow Servant's capstone on your Beguiler casting isn't the cheesiest thing I've ever seen, but then, there wasn't much competition for the cheese award this time. (In pointed contrast to the Theurge contest.)

Chronos
2008-02-28, 02:49 PM
Huh, that's not even the part of that build I thought was cheesy. Sure, that's a very nice combo, but it's fair if you have to give up four caster levels for it (and thereby forever put 9th-level spells out of reach). The cheesy part, I thought, was using Beguiler levels on the other side to keep from falling behind.

But it's a fair rap... This contest was indeed pretty short on cheese.

Draz74
2008-02-28, 03:24 PM
The cheesy part, I thought, was using Beguiler levels on the other side to keep from falling behind.

That too. But less so. I'm a little more scared of a 16th-CL Beguiler who can cast any Cleric spell spontaneously, than I am of a 20th-CL Beguiler who has managed to take 10 levels of Swiftblade without losing caster levels (by using Beguiler levels on the other side to keep from falling behind). The Beguiler-on-both-sides wouldn't strike me as especially cheesy if it weren't being done to get such an awesome capstone benefit.

avr
2008-02-29, 05:18 AM
Best Solo: Terminator. Warforged immunites, lots of options and actions.

Best Combatant: Captain Yoren. Wilders are scary if you stick with them all the way.

Best Dungeon Delver: Terminator, for the same reasons.

Best Socialiser: Dorothy. Spells and probably the beguilers skills win this one.

Huh?: FlayerMan. A Mind Flayer duellist, who'd a guessed it?

Gouda/Honourable mention: Snake on a Helicopter. The couatl still rubs me wrong somehow, and the DMM Persistent cheese (IMO) pushes it over the top. On the other hand, I have a sneaking suspicion that this character would be the most effective solo adventurer of them all.

Chronos
2008-03-03, 11:56 PM
I think I'm technically late, but there's a paucity of votes, and Duke hasn't officially closed the polls yet

Best Solo Adventurer: Doobee Delver the Fearless, mostly because there's basically nothing that leaves him screwed. He's kind of weak in close combat, though.

Best Combatant: Skippy, the Prepared. He's got a solid build, and a good plan, but unfortunately the build and the plan don't complement each other very well (planning on sneaking through dungeons, without any sneaking skills?), which is why he's not the best adventurer. Still, the combination of Master of Many Forms and Wizard is potent for a variety of forms of combat.

Best Dungeon Delver: Doobee Delver the Fearless again, for much the same reasons as above.

Best Socializer: FlayerMan. OK, it doesn't technically fit the award, but socializing, turning people into your volitionless thralls, what's the difference, eh?

Huh?: The Zeleknator, whose plan for every problem seems to be to hit it until it's not a problem any more.

Gouda: The Terminator, for using Eldritch Knight in Gestalt, and whatever it is he's trying to do by juggling the Artificer and Telepath levels.

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 12:37 AM
Best Combatant: Skippy, the Prepared. He's got a solid build, and a good plan, but unfortunately the build and the plan don't complement each other very well (planning on sneaking through dungeons, without any sneaking skills?), which is why he's not the best adventurer. Still, the combination of Master of Many Forms and Wizard is potent for a variety of forms of combat.Why exactly does an invisible flying wizard need sneaking skills?

Chronos
2008-03-04, 12:57 AM
Why exactly does an invisible flying wizard need sneaking skills?To keep any of the ten billion things with See Invisibility from seeing him, or to keep anyone with a decent Spot score from noticing his presence, or to keep anyone at all from seeing him in an Anti-Magic Field, or to keep anyone at all from hearing him in any circumstances at all. Invisibility just doesn't work nearly as well as Hide, at high levels, and wizards don't really have anything which even approximates Move Silently.

Squash Monster
2008-03-04, 01:20 AM
To keep any of the ten billion things with See Invisibility from seeing him, or to keep anyone with a decent Spot score from noticing his presence, or to keep anyone at all from seeing him in an Anti-Magic Field, or to keep anyone at all from hearing him in any circumstances at all. Invisibility just doesn't work nearly as well as Hide, at high levels, and wizards don't really have anything which even approximates Move Silently.You win on invisibility. But fly equates move silently anywhere that isn't an anti-magic field.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 01:48 AM
But fly equates move silently anywhere that isn't an anti-magic field.Is this in the rules somewhere? Because there's still the rustle of a robe, or jewelry clinking, or (if you make a really bad roll) sneezing, or (for opponents with very high Listen scores) breathing. Flying certainly removes any circumstance penalty for squeaky floorboards or dry leaves or the like, and it might grant a circumstance bonus for not having footfalls at all, but there are other sources of noise.

MorkaisChosen
2008-03-04, 10:46 AM
Mind Flayer Duelist may not be the most obvious choice, but it's actually a pretty effective one- they benefit a lot from the crazy HUGE Intelligence.

Not voting because I have very little experience with this kind of thing- I just had to get my Mind Flayer out into the world...

Duke of URL
2008-03-04, 11:12 AM
Well, thanks to those precious few who voted... the winners are:

Best Solo Adventurer: Doobee Delver The Fearless

Best Combatant: Skippy The Prepared

Best Dungeon Delver: Doobee Delver The Fearless

Best Socializer: No build received more than one vote

Huh?: No build received more than one vote

Gouda: No build received more than one vote

Adumbration
2008-03-04, 11:24 AM
Is this in the rules somewhere? Because there's still the rustle of a robe, or jewelry clinking, or (if you make a really bad roll) sneezing, or (for opponents with very high Listen scores) breathing. Flying certainly removes any circumstance penalty for squeaky floorboards or dry leaves or the like, and it might grant a circumstance bonus for not having footfalls at all, but there are other sources of noise.

Actually, that's the whole point of wildshape in this situation. How much noise does a floating ball of light make?

Chronos
2008-03-04, 06:09 PM
Actually, that's the whole point of wildshape in this situation. How much noise does a floating ball of light make?More than you'd expect, apparently: Neither a Lantern Archon nor a Will-o'-wisp has any listed bonus to Move Silently (and you don't get most racial skill bonuses from Wildshape, anyway). Granted, the wisp does have a huge Dex bonus, which you do get, but it's still not enough for the even huger Listen bonuses on high-level outsiders and dragons.

Draz74
2008-03-04, 06:42 PM
According to the RAW? Apparently it can make some. Because the rules never say it can't, or doesn't have to make Move Silently checks.

If I am DM, I will definitely give it a circumstance bonus. But not too good of a bonus, or Move Silently becomes yet another obsolete skill, eaten up by the overpower of magic. :smallannoyed:


Well, thanks to those precious few who voted...

Whoops, I never came back and cast my other votes (besides Gouda). I'd like to say I forgot, but to be completely honest, that's only partially true; I also didn't vote one time when I remembered, because I didn't want to vote for my own character, but I also didn't want to outvote my own character in any category that he might win. :smallwink:

For what it's worth retroactively, here are the other votes that I had decided to cast (besides Doobee):

Huh: FlayerMan. Mind Flayer Duelist may be mechanically effective, but boy is it a strange mental picture.

Best Combatant: Snake on a Helicopter.

Best Socializer: Dorothy.

Chronos
2008-03-04, 11:39 PM
Best Combatant: Snake on a Helicopter.Thanks, but two things. First, since submitting that, I've learned that DMM has been errataed to only work on divine spells, which means that the entire build pretty much falls apart. Second, even without a gentleman's agreement to not vote for our own builds, I think Skippy is still a better combatant than Helicopter. I had forgotten momentarily that Master of Many Forms got access to the Wildshape Wisp trick, and when you combine that with full wizard casting (and partial Druid to boot), I'm not aware of anything that can beat it (possibly a Solar, but even that's very iffy).

Annarrkkii
2008-03-05, 12:16 AM
Crap! I didn't realize this started voting... thanks to those who voted for me in one of three apparently random categories.

I would like to note, however, that I don't think I deserve the Gouda vote I got. I didn't really intend to accomplish anything by juggling Artificer and Telepath—other than the obvious. I wanted crafting reserves and crafting feats to help the Terminator outfit himself, as well as self-infusions for helpful things like healing and AC bonuses, and I wanted the Telepath for Psionic Lion's Charge, Schism, and out-of-combat mind control and similar charisma-replacing powers. And I thought we'd agreed previously that BAB did not count as a class feature for purposes of dual-progression?

Had I managed to get my votes in, I would have voted thusly:

Best Solo Adventurer: Skippy, the Prepared. He's got it all covered, really. Shapeshifting does that for you.

Best Combatant: I'd have gone with Mind Over Medic, just because he is straightforward, potent, and versatile in hand-to-hand combat.

Best Dungeon Delver: Skippy, the Prepared. It's hard to imagine a dungeon challenge he can't just bypass. I don't really approve of that method, on principle, or of Master of Many Forms, but I have to admit, he's pretty darn impressive.

Best Socializer: Dorothy—simply by virtue of Beguiler levels, since the Party Face role took a backseat in most of these builds.

Huh?: FlayerMan. He's a mindflayer duelist.

Gouda: Skippy, the Prepared. I always get antsy looking at Master of Many Forms. It just feels... wrong to me. Something designed to make Shapechange available to the masses with 3/4 BAB and sturdy HD...

Draz74
2008-03-05, 12:23 AM
Thanks, but two things. First, since submitting that, I've learned that DMM has been errataed to only work on divine spells, which means that the entire build pretty much falls apart.
Hmmm. Yeah, I was missing that. Well, I still like Couatl builds.


Second, even without a gentleman's agreement to not vote for our own builds, I think Skippy is still a better combatant than Helicopter. I had forgotten momentarily that Master of Many Forms got access to the Wildshape Wisp trick, and when you combine that with full wizard casting (and partial Druid to boot), I'm not aware of anything that can beat it (possibly a Solar, but even that's very iffy).
I don't get why this is so uber (and yes, I did read the whole thread, although I probably didn't pay very close attention to the part debating the will-o-wisp thing). So ... full immunity to offensive spells, except for magic missile and maze. And flight and invisibility (not even greater invisibility). So ... hit him with some non-spell attack, right? I guess that's easier said than done, if he uses Mirror Image, Stoneskin, etc.; but then it seems like he's only marginally more powerful than any other Batman wizard.

Edit: Especially when any old wizard can use Shapechange, anyway. Heck, if the will-o-wisp trick is so powerful, then Doobee will just copy it with Greater Metamorphosis. :smalltongue:

Edit again: Don't get me wrong, I don't think Doobee is a better Combatant than Skippy. But I don't understand why Skippy is getting such unanimous support, compared with (for example) Army In A Can.

Squash Monster
2008-03-05, 01:26 AM
Sorry for the lack of participation on this one, I wasn't really paying attention to the build challenge since the currently running one doesn't excite me much.

However, I'm pretty interested in the next categories. Any idea when they'll be up?

Chronos
2008-03-05, 09:34 PM
And I thought we'd agreed previously that BAB did not count as a class feature for purposes of dual-progression?No, we agreed that we'd leave it up to the voters. And I, as a voter, happen to think it's a little too cheesy, so I voted that way. It's still nowhere near as cheesy as some of the things in previous contests, though.


Edit: Especially when any old wizard can use Shapechange, anyway. Heck, if the will-o-wisp trick is so powerful, then Doobee will just copy it with Greater Metamorphosis.The advantage of Wild Shape over Shapechange is that you can cast spells while Wildshaped, but with Shapechange, it's dependent on what your form is (you need handlike things for somatic components, a voice for verbal, and material components available, which might mean dropping them before shifting and picking them up again). A wizard shapechanged into a wisp still has all of the wisp's defensive abilities, but he's crippled his offense.

As for the defensive capabilities of the wisp, sure, a Wiz20 will probably only get beaten if he makes some sort of mistake, but as Kasparov once said, the winner of a game of chess is the player who makes the penultimate mistake. Even wizards make mistakes some times. But being wildshaped into a wisp all day makes it a lot harder to make mistakes, since the wisp's defensive abilities are passive, always on, and undispellable.

Duke of URL
2008-03-06, 07:12 AM
However, I'm pretty interested in the next categories. Any idea when they'll be up?

I try to post the new one when I close the current one, typically on Tuesdays around noon PST, though sometimes later, depending on what's going on in the real world.

Double-Dippers was opened yesterday.

Beren One-Hand
2008-03-07, 01:21 AM
Well, thanks to those precious few who voted... the winners are:

Best Solo Adventurer: Doobee Delver The Fearless

Best Combatant: Skippy The Prepared

Best Dungeon Delver: Doobee Delver The Fearless

Best Socializer: No build received more than one vote

Huh?: No build received more than one vote

Gouda: No build received more than one vote

I'm sorry I was unable to vote in this one... it seems that the voting time frame could be a bit too short.

I know I barely had time to investigate the other entries before the voting was over and the next contest almost closed.

Draz74
2008-03-07, 03:01 AM
Not really ... this thread sat on the 2nd or 3rd page of the Forums for a few days, forgotten, while the voting was active.

Annarrkkii
2008-03-07, 09:41 AM
Not really ... this thread sat on the 2nd or 3rd page of the Forums for a few days, forgotten, while the voting was active.

Yeah, that's what got me. I was counting on seeing when Duke's post with the voting bumped this back up, but I evidently missed that... and the subsequent votes.