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Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-20, 09:56 AM
Was recently reading through the Elder Evils book (Which I think is great by the way) and some thoughts came to my mind. Well a bunch actually but only a few are relevant to this thread.

Has anybody gotten any use out of it in their campaigns yet? Used any of the material inside of it?

How did it go? (In the 'did your players enjoy the game/encounter with the Elder Evil and accompanying minions)

How did you handle the signs? They seem pretty wide-spread and random at times, did any of your players ignore them because they didn't seem as important? Or did they take quick action?

Did you come up with your own Elder Evil or use one of the pre-made ones?

Which one of the pre-made Elder Evils is your favorite? (Mine is currently a tie between Atropeus, Panodyrm, and the Leviathan)

This is the big one here...how would you...expand upon the example story-lines?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 10:08 AM
My favourite's between Pandorym, Leviathan and Atropus, but to be honest, I was slightly disappointed with the rest of them.

They've got some nice concepts, but I just found them too ridiculously weak for what they were.

Case in point - the Hulks of Zoretha. When I was reading the intro, I thought 'wow, colossus level hulks of tremendous power'.

When I saw the sblock?

WHO IN THE PRIME sends a CR 16 encounter to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD? Even at E6, it wouldn't be too hard.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-20, 11:21 AM
My favourite's between Pandorym, Leviathan and Atropus, but to be honest, I was slightly disappointed with the rest of them.

They've got some nice concepts, but I just found them too ridiculously weak for what they were.

Case in point - the Hulks of Zoretha. When I was reading the intro, I thought 'wow, colossus level hulks of tremendous power'.

When I saw the sblock?

WHO IN THE PRIME sends a CR 16 encounter to DESTROY THE WHOLE WORLD? Even at E6, it wouldn't be too hard.

The rest of them weren't too bad...it was mostly special effects and their signs that make them the dangers that they are. Take...Ragnorra (sp?) for example. I'd actually say she is a big threat but lost most of her mass in impact and resulting in the CR 19 monster you see.

And the Hulks are old...maybe from a time when level 10 was a major accomplishment :smalltongue: and they'd be big threats then. 'sides...couldn't make them too powerful if your fighting them all (And then some) at once.

Doresain
2008-02-20, 11:22 AM
my favorites would have to be Atropus, the Worm that Walks, and i guess Sertrous...Llymic was alright, mainly because i thought the broodspawn were cool, and Ragnorra just screamed FF7...

the Worm was, in my opinion, the coolest because he had the most story behind him...i mean come on, he and his minions have been mentioned in at least 3 other books that i know of, so that has to count for something

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 12:17 PM
The rest of them weren't too bad...it was mostly special effects and their signs that make them the dangers that they are. Take...Ragnorra (sp?) for example. I'd actually say she is a big threat but lost most of her mass in impact and resulting in the CR 19 monster you see.

Yeah, the signs were worst. They spewed out fort saves like nobodies' business, and Atropus ... :shudder:


And the Hulks are old...maybe from a time when level 10 was a major accomplishment :smalltongue: and they'd be big threats then. 'sides...couldn't make them too powerful if your fighting them all (And then some) at once.

Yeah, but even with 6th level characters, say, they'd still be defeatable, not world-ending. Also, when you fight them, you're ECL 20. Four levels ago, you should have been able to defeat that encounter 4/day.

If I was to run that campaign, I think I'd have them as Colossi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm). 4 stone, 1 iron.

At E6.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-20, 01:20 PM
Yeah, the signs were worst. They spewed out fort saves like nobodies' business, and Atropus ... :shudder:

Atropus probably has the best sign ever, expect for maybe Father Lymic. He makes a friggin zombie apocalypse for heaven's sake!



Yeah, but even with 6th level characters, say, they'd still be defeatable, not world-ending. Also, when you fight them, you're ECL 20. Four levels ago, you should have been able to defeat that encounter 4/day.

If I was to run that campaign, I think I'd have them as Colossi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/colossus.htm). 4 stone, 1 iron.

At E6.

...I honestly don't think the Hulks are defeatable at EL 10. They aren't just stupid constructs afterall, they are more then smart enough for intelligent tactics and should be played that way. Aside from that they ARE tough SOBs. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but they seem plenty deadly to me.

Ragnorra on the other hand...needs creative use to be deadly. Points for creativity but not for effectiveness.

FoE
2008-02-20, 02:03 PM
What I like about Atropus is that it really embodies the "undefeatable evil from beyond the cosmos" concept. You can't really beat Atropus — all you can do is beat it off (not what you're thinking, sickos) by defeating the vessel for its consciousness that wanders around on the World Born Dead's surface. And that's going to be quite a fight getting to it, considering the legions of powerful undead haunting the World Born Dead.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 02:11 PM
...I honestly don't think the Hulks are defeatable at EL 10. They aren't just stupid constructs afterall, they are more then smart enough for intelligent tactics and should be played that way. Aside from that they ARE tough SOBs. Maybe it's just a difference of opinion but they seem plenty deadly to me.

Yes, but not as deadly as they're played up to be. They should, in my opinion, be near invincible in a straight fight; otherwise, it's just a matter of 'lolz a construct lets fierbal it!!!1!'.

They just didn't inspire the 'oh ----' reaction that an elder evil should:

Atropal's 'anything that dies turns into a zombie'? Check.

Pandorym's 'My very thoughts are epic psions and my body is a large, unavoidable sphere of annihilation'? Check.

Big elemental statues with breath weapons? Meh.

The_Snark
2008-02-20, 04:25 PM
I was kind of unimpressed with the idea that the Hulks were simply vaguely humanoid statues, actually. Why are the things from another world building something that even remotely resembles us?

If I were to use them, I'd redo them as huge (as in Colossal) stone (maybe?) oblong things, which begin to raise from the ground as they awaken. CR could stay like it is if the world was low-powered, or be significantly increased if not, but remember, with their sign, there won't be any sort of unified resistance.

Pity, because I liked the idea and they had some of the most interesting cultists. Their sign and cultists can stay as is.

Same goes for Father Llymic; an extradimensional horror of ice and snow, and they represent him as a bug demon? Meh. I'd replace that with a strange non-Euclidean creature/structure that strains the mind to even look at, if you can somehow manage to see what it looks like in the darkness. Don't know what I'd do about the spawn. He has one of the most devastating signs, too, so it was a pity they decided on the bug demon route.

Atropus works well as-is, but I've never been too much a fan of zombie apocalypses. Leviathan is neat; more of a mythical creature than most of the other destroy-the-world creatures, but that's fine. Pandorym and Ragnorra were okay, too, and I liked Ragnorra's ability to harass the players continuously through the worldweb.

FoE
2008-02-20, 06:10 PM
I don't hear too much love for Zargon or Sertrous. :smalltongue:

You know, the representation of Father Lymic as a bug-monster does kind of clash with what they were trying to do there.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-02-20, 06:35 PM
So what, they took the idea of elder horrors and then neglected to read any H.P. Lovecraft/Cthulu mythos? WTF?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-20, 07:02 PM
I don't hear too much love for Zargon or Sertrous. :smalltongue:

http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/8395/111219qd4.jpg

http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/6904/111222fm7.jpg

Bosaxon
2008-02-20, 11:15 PM
I purchased the book over the weekend, and there is something I don't quite understand. How are the PC's supposed to reach the moonlet? In all honesty, you'd need some sort of spelljammer crossover or a really creative necromancer mixed with a gnomish inventor think tank to solve the distance/enviroment barrier.

The_Snark
2008-02-20, 11:24 PM
I don't think there's anything stopping you from teleporting onto the moonlet—and off it, when it retreats. And I'm pretty certain that there are other spells and items you could use to cross safely; Telekinetic Sphere, an Apparatus of Kwalish... that sort of thing.

Sertrous... I'll give it credit for looking kind of neat. Not that interesting otherwise.

Bosaxon
2008-02-20, 11:31 PM
I don't think there's anything stopping you from teleporting onto the moonlet—and off it, when it retreats. And I'm pretty certain that there are other spells and items you could use to cross safely; Telekinetic Sphere, an Apparatus of Kwalish... that sort of thing.

True, I suppose. I was more concerned about actually covering the 250,000 miles given as an example with as little resource expenditure as possible.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-21, 12:17 AM
Could always use the bodak's glider...if you don't kill it that is.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 03:54 AM
What I like about Atropus is that it really embodies the "undefeatable evil from beyond the cosmos" concept. You can't really beat Atropus — all you can do is beat it off (not what you're thinking, sickos) by defeating the vessel for its consciousness that wanders around on the World Born Dead's surface. And that's going to be quite a fight getting to it, considering the legions of powerful undead haunting the World Born Dead.

Or, you can use nuclear weapons (or serious Epic Spells). The moonlet is only a few hundred miles wide after all.


Generally speaking, WotC gimped the Elder Evils. If a Balor is more challenging than many of them, what's the point? Their signs might be scary but they are not.

FoE
2008-02-21, 04:01 AM
Nuclear weapons in a high-fantasy setting? :smallconfused:

Well, when you put it that way, I suppose the Death Star does own Atropus. But I don't recall seeing Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader in any fantasy campaigns that I've played.

Anyways, I think it's worth noting that Elder Evils weren't meant to be "additional challenges for your Epic-level campaign as you chug along to Level 50!" They're meant to be campaign-enders for mid to high-level characters. 'Cause even if you beat these guys, the world as you know it is irrevocably changed. Mostly because nearly everyone's dead.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 04:29 AM
Nuclear Weapons are not part of any epic campaign. Normally. But if you are lvl 21+ and you have Epic Spellcasting and enough followers, you can make Epic Spells to replicate nuclear weapons-or even the Death Star.

FoE
2008-02-21, 04:50 AM
Nuclear Weapons are not part of any epic campaign. Normally. But if you are lvl 21+ and you have Epic Spellcasting and enough followers, you can make Epic Spells to replicate nuclear weapons-or even the Death Star.

... Not in my campaign you don't.

Talic
2008-02-21, 05:04 AM
Or, you can use nuclear weapons (or serious Epic Spells). The moonlet is only a few hundred miles wide after all.


Generally speaking, WotC gimped the Elder Evils. If a Balor is more challenging than many of them, what's the point? Their signs might be scary but they are not.

Only a few hundred miles? It's time for "Rock falls, enemies die"... Break out my complete warrior, I need a hulking hurler, a necklace of adaptation, a couple levels of PsiWar to anchor myself in space, and a freakin' huge rock.

BadJuJu
2008-02-21, 08:08 AM
Only a few hundred miles? It's time for "Rock falls, enemies die"... Break out my complete warrior, I need a hulking hurler, a necklace of adaptation, a couple levels of PsiWar to anchor myself in space, and a freakin' huge rock.

Sounds familiar.

hamlet
2008-02-21, 10:57 AM
After reading through the book briefly, I honestly think that WOTC's versions of "Elder Evils" are rather tame.

What about a community project to create a truly frightening Elder Evil?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 11:08 AM
Hey, that's a good idea. Elder Evils should be scary, not wimps. I'll make Pandorym. Who wants to make the others?

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-21, 11:37 AM
After reading through the book briefly, I honestly think that WOTC's versions of "Elder Evils" are rather tame.

What about a community project to create a truly frightening Elder Evil?

I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Even as far as the Elder Evil's in that book go, Panodrym's on the upper ranks of power for it, why does it need changed? Atropus, Panodrym, and the Leviathan are fine as they are, people only seem to be complaining about the likes of Ragnorra, Father, and Seterous.

Hecatonchires
2008-02-21, 11:42 AM
I'm about to run a feudal era, knight campaign with the Restless Dead sign and possibly the bodak blackguard from the book.

Will let you know the reactions of my players as they happen.

I definitely look forward to using the -probably- last 3.5 book from WOTC. Especially as apocalyptically delicious as it is.

FoE
2008-02-21, 12:28 PM
I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Agreed. The point here was to make a defeatable menace, not simply to stat out Cthulhu.

Player: "OK guys, let's get ready, the Elder Evil is about to appear!"
DM: "Nyarlothep steps out of the gate. Roll your Will saves. (Waits for roll) Sorry, you failed. You all go crazy from the sight of him. Nyarlothep eats you."
Player: "You son of a ..."

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-21, 02:12 PM
Hey, that's a good idea. Elder Evils should be scary, not wimps. I'll make Pandorym. Who wants to make the others?

Pandorym's the only one I thought was actually a scary threat in itself, mostly because of the fact that one could imagine him posing a threat to the Prime. Nonetheless, I think that I would remake the Hulks of Zoretha.

Hmm. Mountain-sized meteor creatures made of the elements. Hmmm ...


I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Yes, but fighting the Hulks, which were the same CR as a mature adult green dragon? Pshaw.

hamlet
2008-02-21, 02:29 PM
I think you were expecting something too much like Cthulhu when you went through it then. Something that isn't beaten or driven off, ever. If a campaign ended in an encounter like that, I'd be pissed as hell at the DM. It's probably why the WotC Elder Evils were 'tamed', as you put it, down so they make better campaign capstones rather then 'Oh look, an undefeatable monster. Well, this world is boned, lets get out of here.'

Even as far as the Elder Evil's in that book go, Panodrym's on the upper ranks of power for it, why does it need changed? Atropus, Panodrym, and the Leviathan are fine as they are, people only seem to be complaining about the likes of Ragnorra, Father, and Seterous.

No, I wasn't thinking Cthulhu, but I was thinking in the same vein.

Elder Evils (those unspeakable horrors from beyond the known realms of sanity) should be something way beyond even the strongest of heroes. They shouldn't be able to win in a standup fight against it at any level.

The best that they can hope for is to seal it away for a time, or forever, or to "save as many as you can" and get out of its way.

Anything less isn't an elder evil, it's just an especially tough boss fight which means it might as well be a video game at that point.

FoE
2008-02-21, 02:36 PM
OK, the Hulks are a wash, and Zargon is a bit lame, but I would like to definitely work something like Atropus, the Worm that Walks or the Leviathan (especially if it was a heavy seafaring one) into my campaign.

Callos_DeTerran
2008-02-21, 04:29 PM
No, I wasn't thinking Cthulhu, but I was thinking in the same vein.

Elder Evils (those unspeakable horrors from beyond the known realms of sanity) should be something way beyond even the strongest of heroes. They shouldn't be able to win in a standup fight against it at any level.

The best that they can hope for is to seal it away for a time, or forever, or to "save as many as you can" and get out of its way.

Anything less isn't an elder evil, it's just an especially tough boss fight which means it might as well be a video game at that point.

There it is again. Your lumping these Elder Evils in with Lovecraftian Elder Evils (Or the Cthulhu game) which was not WotC's intention and frankly I'd be more disappointed if it was their intention. All they did was take an evocative term and used it to describe these beasties and gave them epic stories behind them that make them world-ending menaces.

Anything your characters are fighting at the end of a campaign needs to be 'beatable' in a sense, otherwise their most likely just going to get angry at you. Because, eventually, almost every final encounter with the BBEG will come down to combat and if they can't win through that then how is it an epic finish?

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 04:31 PM
Just follow these points:

1) An Elder Evil is a serious threat of such magnitude that, if left unchecked, has the ability to destroy a nation (if of the smaller evils), a continent (if of the medium evils) or the entire world (if of the greater evils)
2) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any other threat the PCs could face in a campaign.
3) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any individual creature of the world it threatens to destroy-otherwise such creatures would easily stop it.
4) The most powerful standard (non-advanced, non-templated) creatures in the world in most worlds are Dragons.
5) So far, no campaign setting lacked dragons.
6) Since all dragons eventually reach Great Wurm stage unless slain, it is safe to assume there's at least one Great Wurm Dragon, if not more.
7) The most powerful Great Wurms have a CR of 26-27.
Conclusion: Thus, for an Elder Evil to have even a chance of ending the world, it must be AT LEAST CR 26-27


Now, follow these points:

1) PCs at 20th level are supposedly capable of easily killing several CR 20 beings per day or a single CR 22-23 being.
2) PCs that know a being's strengths and weaknesses via divinations could kill beings of 1 CR higher.
3) PCs that specifically prepare through items and spells against an enemy could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
4) PCs that are willing to burn high-power expendable resources such as employ scrolls or cast 9th level spells, use rings of wishes, craft contingent spells and use rods and staves could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
5) PCs that bring in one-time allies such a Greater Planar Ally, a cohort or NPCs that owe major favors, could kill beings 1 CR higher.
Conclusion: Thus a group of 20th level PCs that find an enemy's strengths and weaknesses through Divinations, prepare accordingly with spells and items, gather and spend many expendable resources and bring in allies and cohorts could, in a very difficult for them fight, eliminate beings in the CR 28-29 range.


Final conclusion:
The CR 16-25 WotC Elder Evils are laughable both when compared to the CR 27 dragons that exist in any world (or equally powerful Archmages or classed creatures) and in what a forewarned, prepared, fully armed, optimised and supported party of 20th level PCs could kill. Thus, WotC Elder Evils-especially those at CR 20 and below-are wimps and must be upgraded with several doses of badass and a couple doses of awesome.

PS:
Not to mention that a single 20th level wizard could kill the existing Elder Evils all by himself even without ridiculous cheese.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-02-21, 04:48 PM
PS:
Not to mention that a single 20th level wizard could kill the existing Elder Evils all by himself even without ridiculous cheese.

I might stat up the Tippy-wizard as an elder evil.

The hook:


Across the celestial planes, something is wrong. The most powerful servants of the higher powers are being abducted, one by one, draining the pure essence of goodness out of the upper planes. No-one knows why - but ancient scriptures, translated by a mad monk (who's a thinly disguised knock-off of Abdul Alhazred) allege the existence of a dark plan, a powerful ritual that threatens to rend the souls of all of the most powerful mages and clerics of the Heavens - and channelling that energy into a single target.

Bahamut, king of the dragons, should fear for his life.

FoE
2008-02-21, 05:15 PM
Wizards has noted the legions of followers and malefic feats more than make up for the lowered Challenge Rating.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 05:42 PM
Wizards has noted the legions of followers and malefic feats more than make up for the lowered Challenge Rating.

Timestop Automaxed, quicken teleport in, sonic delayed blast fireball 5x, Twinned Celerity, Timestop Automaxed 2x, sonic delayed blast fireball 9x, teleport away.

Elder Evil takes 280d6 (average 980) points of damage and dies. Its followers and malefic feats never help it. The 20th level wizard only used spells and abilities as they're supposed to be used-to get extra actions and dump his full load of shadow bombs... err, I mean DBFs onto the enemy star destroyer.... err, I mean BBEG without ever being detected or counterattacked.

The_Snark
2008-02-21, 07:27 PM
Timestop Automaxed, quicken teleport in, sonic delayed blast fireball 5x, Twinned Celerity, Timestop Automaxed 2x, sonic delayed blast fireball 9x, teleport away.

Elder Evil takes 280d6 (average 980) points of damage and dies. Its followers and malefic feats never help it. The 20th level wizard only used spells and abilities as they're supposed to be used-to get extra actions and dump his full load of shadow bombs... err, I mean DBFs onto the enemy star destroyer.... err, I mean BBEG without ever being detected or counterattacked.

Wizards does not calculate that sort of cheese-tactic into its CR calculations. They operate under the assumption that a party is going to be of average optimization, not as optimized as they can possibly be.

The elder evil CRs are for the most part fine when you remember—the threat they pose isn't just the CR 20-ish monster that you can defeat to put the evil back into the can. The threat they pose is the zombie apocalypse... or the sun going dead... or every creature on the planet being driven to a bloodthirsty rage... and so on. Great wyrm dragons can't stop it.

While it might not make a whole lot of sense if you run a high-powered world with plenty of powerful outsiders, epic-level characters, and dragons, the fact is that if Wizards had made all of its elder evils epic-level, the majority of people wouldn't use it. Epic-level rules are contained in a separate rulebook, and Wizards has sort of tacitly acknowledged that it's not balanced. (At all.) In order to publish material that's useable, they made the elder evil aspects that you end up fighting (which, I point out, are not usually reflective of the elder evil at full power) lower CR, and left it up to the DMs who run high-powered games (who usually have a corresponding knowledge of the rules) to raise their CR for those individual games.

FoE
2008-02-21, 11:22 PM
Agreed on all points, Snark.

Maerok
2008-02-22, 01:25 AM
I saw this book in Borders, and as with Exemplars of Evil I was disappointed.