Has Splitting been used in real games?

[Frosty]

A lot of archer builds I look at recommend the Splitting enhancement. Besides the fact that the book is apparently uncommon/rare (haven't been able to find one for 2 years), the enhancement seems rather overpowered. Theoretical optimization aside, has anyone actually played in an real campaign where the enhancement is allowed? If so, did it break the game?

[Lizardfolk Lich]

Can you post mechanics? I'm assuming the arrow would break into 2 or more fully functional arrows. That does seem overpowered.

[Frosty]

a +3 enchantment that makes every arrow you fire magical split into two identical arrows. Basically doubles your damage output.

[sikyon]

I wouldn't say so, specifically because bows arn't particularly powerful in general. You can't, for example, power attack with a composite longbow (that I know of) so really... not THAT great.

[Frosty]

I think one PRC has ranged power attack as an ability. But besides that, it's all about the Skirmish. 8 arrows with 7 or 8d6 each is a good thing. 64d6 damage total per round woot if all arrows hit. Average 224 damage bonus damage per round before counting str or actual bow enchantments.

[SurlySeraph]

I wouldn't say so, specifically because bows arn't particularly powerful in general. You can't, for example, power attack with a composite longbow (that I know of) so really... not THAT great.

That's not what makes Splitting ridiculously overpowered. Sneak Attack is what lets it be ridiculously overpowered. 10d6 damage on 3 attacks in a round can be pretty devastating. 10d6 on 6 attacks is, well, twice as devastating.

And it stacks with Rapid Shot and other things that give you more attacks. If you do some cheesy stuff to get more attacks (extra arms and the like), and you have a source of bonus damage that you get on every attack, then Splitting lets you do a silly amount of damage as long as you don't roll 1s on a statistically improbable number of attack rolls.

[Person_Man]

As I mentioned in another thread, I've never actually seen Splitting allowed in a real game. I've been playing D&D since first ed, have had a variety of different gaming groups, and have played at cons as well.

If it was allowed, it'd be quite easy to get retardly high damage very quickly. Magical effects from arrows stack (although the enhancement bonuses do not): You can have a +1 Flaming Bow, a +1 Frost arrow, and a 12th level friend cast Greater Magic Weapon, and viola!: You fire +3 Flaming Frost attacks. This easily scales all the way up to Epic levels. Throw in Kensai, Peerless Archer, Mercantile Background, Ancestral Relic, etc, and you'll have plenty of cash to spend on it. Then potentially add on Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, Skirmish, Favored Enemy, Crippling Strike, Mind Cripple, Fear effects, etc.

Having played various such builds (without Splitting) I have to say that its pretty darn effective, but really really boring. You deal massive, varied damage. Your selection of arrows means you never have to worry about DR. You can move and attack every turn. But you're pretty much doing the same exact thing every turn. Move, Fire. Move, Fire. Move, Fire. It gets really tedious.

[sikyon]

That's not what makes Splitting ridiculously overpowered. Sneak Attack is what lets it be ridiculously overpowered. 10d6 damage on 3 attacks in a round can be pretty devastating. 10d6 on 6 attacks is, well, twice as devastating.

And it stacks with Rapid Shot and other things that give you more attacks. If you do some cheesy stuff to get more attacks (extra arms and the like), and you have a source of bonus damage that you get on every attack, then Splitting lets you do a silly amount of damage as long as you don't roll 1s on a statistically improbable number of attack rolls.

How much worse is it than a shock trooper/pounce/power attack two hander etc?

[Prometheus]

It's been said, but here's the basic concept. More attacks are most effective with a lot of damage per attack. More damage are most effective with a lot of attacks. The trick in maximizing total damage is to create an even balance of the two.

Obviously though, the game accounts for this phenomenon a little bit by making you receive even more damage bonus when you have less attacks (two handed power attack) and even more attacks when you have low damage (rangers). So the real trick is to spot what is a good deal by taking into account the attack-damage per attack trade-off.

I'd say Splitting could definitely be a good deal, but since it is in place of something that would be more likely to hit, it is best used for slaughtering many slightly weaker opponents than taking on single large opponents.

[leperkhaun]

doesnt splitting fall under the rule of you cant apply sneak attack damage more than once to an attack?

[SurlySeraph]

How much worse is it than a shock trooper/pounce/power attack two hander etc?

Well, I haven't seen anything that matches the Uberercharger (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=401662). But it can get pretty bad. Consider, for example, a Rogue 3/ Scout 17 with the Swift Ambusher feat. He gets 9d6 Sneak Attack and 5d6 Skirmish, for a total of 14d6 bonus damage per attack. If he uses Greater Manyshot to get multiple ranged attacks on his standard action, things really start to add up. If he has 4 attacks (which is easy enough to get), that's up to 56d6 bonus damage per round. With Splitting, that's 8 attacks and up to 112d6 bonus damage. There are plenty of ways to increase his bonus damage and/ or his number of attacks, ranging from innocuous (the Deadly Precision/ Flaming/ Shock/ Frost weapon enhancements) to the unbalanced (UMDing a scroll of Celerity), to the disgustingly cheesy (Girallon arms, Insectile Template, anything else that lets him hold extra bows with Multiattack). I haven't worked out a fully optimized build, but the highest possible amount of damage could be truly ridiculous if he got enough attacks.


doesnt splitting fall under the rule of you cant apply sneak attack damage more than once to an attack?

It's not the same attacks twice, they're different attacks.

[namo]

Answer : not for long. I've seen it used recently in a game I'm following and it was promptly banned.

Arguably, 1 split arrow only gets 1 attack roll so you should only apply SA once. It does apply to each attack in the Greater Manyshot.

[AtomicKitKat]

Insectile wouldn't help anything except in reloading crossbows. Fang of Lolth is the arthropodic arm-giver you want.

[Mr. Friendly]

Am I the only one who read the thread title as "Spitting" rather than "Splitting"?

I got nothing to add here, so here is a picture of a Wolf-in-Sheep's-Clothing with a pancake on it's head.

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/article73.htm

(ok, not really, but that is a hilarious article)

Aaaand... resume thread!

[Frosty]

As I mentioned in another thread, I've never actually seen Splitting allowed in a real game. I've been playing D&D since first ed, have had a variety of different gaming groups, and have played at cons as well.

Having played various such builds (without Splitting) I have to say that its pretty darn effective, but really really boring. You deal massive, varied damage. Your selection of arrows means you never have to worry about DR. You can move and attack every turn. But you're pretty much doing the same exact thing every turn. Move, Fire. Move, Fire. Move, Fire. It gets really tedious.

And that's why we need to be able to have interesting ranged options that do not require feats to use. For example, I'd like to be able to do a ranged "grapple" by pinning something's clothing/skin to a wall. Or a ranged disarm by hitting the weapon. or even a ranged trip somehow. And I want to be able to this without investing in any feats. If I do take feats for it, I'd be able to do it *better*

So...so far the consensus is that it has never been allowed (for long) in a real game. How would you change the enchantment to make it suitable for a real game? Make every other arrow split?

[Ashes]

Which book is this from?

[Ascension]

Consider, for example, a Rogue 3/ Scout 17 with the Swift Ambusher feat. He gets 9d6 Sneak Attack and 5d6 Skirmish, for a total of 14d6 bonus damage per attack.

No he doesn't. Swift Ambusher only causes your levels to stack for determining Skirmish damage, it doesn't raise Sneak Attack at all. Your Rogue 3/Scout 17 still only has 2d6 Sneak Attack damage.

I'm playing a Rogue/Scout at the moment... I got Swift Ambusher for the skirmish damage, but BOY do I ever wish it stacked for Sneak Attack too... cheesy it would be, but I think I could cope... :smallbiggrin:

[kirbsys]

So basically you get to the point where you get three attacks per round, make a full attack, using multi-shot to shoot two for each, getting twelve arrows total, each with a bonus of like 4d6 adding to a total of 48d6? Yeah thats pretty cheesy.

[tyckspoon]

So basically you get to the point where you get three attacks per round, make a full attack, using multi-shot to shoot two for each, getting twelve arrows total, each with a bonus of like 4d6 adding to a total of 48d6? Yeah thats pretty cheesy.

Manyshot is a standard action; you can't do it at the same time as a full attack. You could do something like a Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter and Manyshot for two, which would double with Splitting to give you as many arrows as a high-level non-Split full attack at a higher attack bonus- four Skirmishing arrows all at -4 to hit compared to four (5 with Rapid Shot) arrows where only the very first one has a higher bonus than the Manyshotted Split arrows. And the Splitting version can come online as soon as you can afford a Splitting bow, instead of having to earn the levels for enough BAB to get several iterative attacks.

[SurlySeraph]

No he doesn't. Swift Ambusher only causes your levels to stack for determining Skirmish damage, it doesn't raise Sneak Attack at all. Your Rogue 3/Scout 17 still only has 2d6 Sneak Attack damage.

I'm playing a Rogue/Scout at the moment... I got Swift Ambusher for the skirmish damage, but BOY do I ever wish it stacked for Sneak Attack too... cheesy it would be, but I think I could cope... :smallbiggrin:

Grah! I meant Scout 3/ Rogue 17. That way, you get the Sneak Attack progression (because of your levels in Rogue) and Skirmish progression (from Swift Ambusher). That's what I get for posting at 2:00 AM. :smallsigh:

[hewhosaysfish]

Could you put this enhancement on a throwing weapon? Then you could get combine it with Power Attack, although admittedly not with the Leap Attack/Shocktrooper cheese.

[Awetugiw]

And then add returning, so that for every time you throw the weapon you immediately get two back?

Somehow I don't think it'll work for things that don't get destroyed in use.

[Jimbob]

Which book is this from???

[Frosty]

Champions of Ruin. Quite a fitting name.