Tyrrell
2008-02-21, 10:34 AM
This is gaming inspired rather than other media, but since the media page is home to so many other versus threads I thought that it would be the right place to post it.
Clan Tremere from White Wolf's Vampire: Dark Ages game versus House Tremere from Atlas' Ars Magica.
Both are organizations of magicians living in a twisted version of the high Middle ages. What do we get when mythic Europe and and the 13th century world of darkness overlap?
House Tremere engaged in the schism war wherein they lost half of their number underneath the call of ending the Human sacrifice performed by the Diedne and the Tremere didn't count the cost. I don't think that a group of blood drinking alternate universe reflection of them would be able to co-exist peacefully with the house for long.
Advantages of the Vampires:
Their recruitment time is shorter. While a neonate is not the same as a elder, the Clan doesn't have fifteen year apprenticeships and the clan can choose to recruit any appropriate human that it locates. The House has to select from only the tiny fraction of the human population that has the gift for magic and even within these people they need to recruit their apprentices before the apprentice's gift becomes to shaped by other magics.
Vampires are durable, you shove four foot of steel through their gut and throw them off of a cliff and they dust themselves off and head out for a drink.
Accustomed to secrecy, Clan Tremere consists of hidden vampires unseen by the world around them. House Tremere lives in covenants and is for the most part not difficult to locate.
Ancient godlike vampires, the Tremere and Goratrex are older and probably more clever than any mere humans of House Tremere. They also wield personal power that is quite impressive.
Ghouls and Gargoyles are better foot soldiers than Grogs
Weaknesses of the Vampires:
They need to feed on blood which is a much more restricted quantity than food.
They burn up in direct sunlight, not really a convenient trait to have.
They are probably more backstabbing and less cooperative than House Tremere. While the clan is somewhat unified they aren't as selfless as the house (except the blood bound ones).
Advantages of the Magi:
Magical power, in comparison to what Ars magica characters can do, the magic wielded by practitioners of Thaumaturgy is pretty bush league stuff. Magic of House Tremere is significantly more powerful, more flexible and it can more or less be used at will.
Universal magical resistance. The Parma magica ritual known to all of the members of the order is going to be more than enough to stop most vampire disciplines that target the wizards.
Ability to adapt, the magics wielded by House Tremere are created by the individual magus to solve his or her problems by leveraging his or her strengths. If a conflict lasts for more than a year or two the members of House Tremere will be dripping with individually designed anti vampire spells and enchanted devices.
Resources, for more than sixty five years after the end of the schism war the Tremere were focussed on preparation for the return of the Diedne. They stocked the fortress of Coeris (conveniently located in a different location than the WoD Coeris) with defenses to make it the ultimate strong point to resist magical assault and allow their members to heal and restock themselves. The fortress, while not ever detailed in the game material, would conservatively have hundreds of enchanted devices a fair portion of which would be enchanted defenses and alarms. Furthermore, if a conflict ever escalates to the point of moving armies House Tremere has at its disposal the ghosts of entire ancient armies that can be conjured and sent to war for the benefit of the house.
Weaknesses of the wizards;
The social effects of the gift, The fact that the gift makes people who meet magi inspired to distrust them coupled with the Tremere's skill with the discipline of Dominate will ensure that the early stages of any propaganda war will go to the Vampires
Need for study and research. The Magi need to spend time studying tomes of lore and developing spells and items in their laboratories of they are to increase in power. The vampires will increase in power by engaging in conflict.
My analysis.
A long conflict (>3 years) goes to the wizards, if elder magi have time to communicate a vampire eradication agenda on their underlings and the time to develop the tools and equipment needed to eradicate this threat they'll be able to function with ruthless efficiency uncovering every mystery and unearthing every vampire. The mind reading magics in ars magica are frighteningly powerful for even a moderately skilled practitioner.
The vampire's best hope is to strike within months before the magi have time to develop abilities specifically suited to combating vampires. By use of their natural abilities and powerful underlings they might be able to wipe out the not particularly secretive magi before the magi learn that they're under attack. The problem with this plan is the House Tremere version of Coeris, I'm sure that there is anything in the WoD that could breach its defenses.
Clan Tremere from White Wolf's Vampire: Dark Ages game versus House Tremere from Atlas' Ars Magica.
Both are organizations of magicians living in a twisted version of the high Middle ages. What do we get when mythic Europe and and the 13th century world of darkness overlap?
House Tremere engaged in the schism war wherein they lost half of their number underneath the call of ending the Human sacrifice performed by the Diedne and the Tremere didn't count the cost. I don't think that a group of blood drinking alternate universe reflection of them would be able to co-exist peacefully with the house for long.
Advantages of the Vampires:
Their recruitment time is shorter. While a neonate is not the same as a elder, the Clan doesn't have fifteen year apprenticeships and the clan can choose to recruit any appropriate human that it locates. The House has to select from only the tiny fraction of the human population that has the gift for magic and even within these people they need to recruit their apprentices before the apprentice's gift becomes to shaped by other magics.
Vampires are durable, you shove four foot of steel through their gut and throw them off of a cliff and they dust themselves off and head out for a drink.
Accustomed to secrecy, Clan Tremere consists of hidden vampires unseen by the world around them. House Tremere lives in covenants and is for the most part not difficult to locate.
Ancient godlike vampires, the Tremere and Goratrex are older and probably more clever than any mere humans of House Tremere. They also wield personal power that is quite impressive.
Ghouls and Gargoyles are better foot soldiers than Grogs
Weaknesses of the Vampires:
They need to feed on blood which is a much more restricted quantity than food.
They burn up in direct sunlight, not really a convenient trait to have.
They are probably more backstabbing and less cooperative than House Tremere. While the clan is somewhat unified they aren't as selfless as the house (except the blood bound ones).
Advantages of the Magi:
Magical power, in comparison to what Ars magica characters can do, the magic wielded by practitioners of Thaumaturgy is pretty bush league stuff. Magic of House Tremere is significantly more powerful, more flexible and it can more or less be used at will.
Universal magical resistance. The Parma magica ritual known to all of the members of the order is going to be more than enough to stop most vampire disciplines that target the wizards.
Ability to adapt, the magics wielded by House Tremere are created by the individual magus to solve his or her problems by leveraging his or her strengths. If a conflict lasts for more than a year or two the members of House Tremere will be dripping with individually designed anti vampire spells and enchanted devices.
Resources, for more than sixty five years after the end of the schism war the Tremere were focussed on preparation for the return of the Diedne. They stocked the fortress of Coeris (conveniently located in a different location than the WoD Coeris) with defenses to make it the ultimate strong point to resist magical assault and allow their members to heal and restock themselves. The fortress, while not ever detailed in the game material, would conservatively have hundreds of enchanted devices a fair portion of which would be enchanted defenses and alarms. Furthermore, if a conflict ever escalates to the point of moving armies House Tremere has at its disposal the ghosts of entire ancient armies that can be conjured and sent to war for the benefit of the house.
Weaknesses of the wizards;
The social effects of the gift, The fact that the gift makes people who meet magi inspired to distrust them coupled with the Tremere's skill with the discipline of Dominate will ensure that the early stages of any propaganda war will go to the Vampires
Need for study and research. The Magi need to spend time studying tomes of lore and developing spells and items in their laboratories of they are to increase in power. The vampires will increase in power by engaging in conflict.
My analysis.
A long conflict (>3 years) goes to the wizards, if elder magi have time to communicate a vampire eradication agenda on their underlings and the time to develop the tools and equipment needed to eradicate this threat they'll be able to function with ruthless efficiency uncovering every mystery and unearthing every vampire. The mind reading magics in ars magica are frighteningly powerful for even a moderately skilled practitioner.
The vampire's best hope is to strike within months before the magi have time to develop abilities specifically suited to combating vampires. By use of their natural abilities and powerful underlings they might be able to wipe out the not particularly secretive magi before the magi learn that they're under attack. The problem with this plan is the House Tremere version of Coeris, I'm sure that there is anything in the WoD that could breach its defenses.