Belial_the_Leveler
2008-02-21, 06:12 PM
WotC's book "Elder Evils" offered several world-ending threats. While the world-wide apocalyptic signs of those beings' coming were capable of ending the world, the "Elder Evils" themselves were wimps. Seriously, CR 16 world-eating horrors? :smallconfused:
Anyway, the basis of this thread is here.
Just follow these points:
1) An Elder Evil is a serious threat of such magnitude that, if left unchecked, has the ability to destroy a nation (if of the smaller evils), a continent (if of the medium evils) or the entire world (if of the greater evils)
2) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any other threat the PCs could face in a campaign.
3) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any individual creature of the world it threatens to destroy-otherwise such creatures would easily stop it.
4) The most powerful standard (non-advanced, non-templated) creatures in the world in most worlds are Dragons.
5) So far, no campaign setting lacked dragons.
6) Since all dragons eventually reach Great Wurm stage unless slain, it is safe to assume there's at least one Great Wurm Dragon, if not more.
7) The most powerful Great Wurms have a CR of 26-27.
Conclusion: Thus, for an Elder Evil to have even a chance of ending the world, it must be AT LEAST CR 26-27
Now, follow these points:
1) PCs at 20th level are supposedly capable of easily killing several CR 20 beings per day or a single CR 22-23 being.
2) PCs that know a being's strengths and weaknesses via divinations could kill beings of 1 CR higher.
3) PCs that specifically prepare through items and spells against an enemy could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
4) PCs that are willing to burn high-power expendable resources such as employ scrolls or cast 9th level spells, use rings of wishes, craft contingent spells and use rods and staves could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
5) PCs that bring in one-time allies such a Greater Planar Ally, a cohort or NPCs that owe major favors, could kill beings 1 CR higher.
Conclusion: Thus a group of 20th level PCs that find an enemy's strengths and weaknesses through Divinations, prepare accordingly with spells and items, gather and spend many expendable resources and bring in allies and cohorts could, in a very difficult for them fight, eliminate beings in the CR 28-29 range.
Final conclusion:
The CR 16-25 WotC Elder Evils are laughable both when compared to the CR 27 dragons that exist in any world (or equally powerful Archmages or classed creatures) and in what a forewarned, prepared, fully armed, optimised and supported party of 20th level PCs could kill. Thus, WotC Elder Evils-especially those at CR 20 and below-are wimps and must be upgraded with several doses of badass and a couple doses of awesome.
So, this thread is intended as a workplace for anyone wishing to remake existing Elder Evils, stat out the actual Elder Evils where WotC statted only an aspect of them (Atropus, Pandorym) or even make new ones (how about statting some Lovecraftian Horrors?)
General advice:
1) Elder Evils are world-ending threats. Even the weaker of them should be as strong as the strongest of dragons. Just like a Great Wurm Red Dragon is a serious threat for a kingdom, a kingdom-threatening Elder Evil should be just as strong. World-threatening Elder Evils should be much tougher.
2) Fighting an Elder Evil is an epic fight. Elder Evils should be either largely immune to cheap tricks or tough enough that a single cheap trick won't have much of an effect. Any such fight should be long and tough, requiring the PCs to spend all their resources to defeat the Elder Evil.
3) Elder Evils should be largely immune to any mundane danger and lesser threats, no matter the number of those threats. A realm should not be able to field an army to fight an Elder Evil as is now possible with many WotC Elder Evils that can be shot to death by ballistae, catapults or large numbers of troops with flaming arrows. High level powers and abilities should be required to harm them.
4) An Elder Evil is supposed to be opposed by PCs of lower ECL than its CR, often much lower if said PCs are prepared, forewarned, fully armed and supported by allies and the final battle is supposed to be really tough. As a result, do not give the Elder Evil attacks that spell instant-death to PCs of lower levels. Instead, boost its defences to the point that lower level PCs have to spend serious resources in a long, drawn-out battle to kill it even if they are prepared especially for it. Alternatively, you can give the Elder Evil some very powerful, very scary attacks that can be blocked fairly easily at very high levels. E.g. attacks based on Death effects or Compulsions. This means an unprepared party is dead meat but a prepared one can fight normally.
5) An Elder Evil should have a number of nasty, frightening attacks that cannot be blocked but aren't that powerful. Players tend to load up on defences then wade in combat carelessly, knowing they are protected by an enemy's defences if they research that enemy's abilities, rendering powerful enemies a cakewalk. E.g. resist elements and mind blank reduce the Balor to doing a whooping 30 damage per round to a single opponent unless he tries to dispel in which case he has less than 50% chance to dispel and does nothing in that round. An Elder Evil should be scary and the players should take it seriously. Giving it an attack or two that does some scary things but isn't totaling the PCs in one blow goes a long way into teaching them that they are not invulnerable.
6) While an Elder Evil may have followers, mortal or not, do not fill the final fight with its followers. There are several reasons for that. First, the more followers in the final fight, the weaker the Elder Evil has to be for the PCs not to be totaled. So, no followers means the strongest Elder Evil possible, which is what we want. Secondly, the PCs should have already fought a crapload of its followers during the campaign in an attempt to stop their plans to hasten the Elder Evil's attack. After a time, it becomes repetitive. In addition, most followers are mooks-they shouldn't be any challenge at all to a party that could take on an Elder Evil. Finally, and perhaps most important of all, Elder Evils want to destroy/eat/obliterate the entire world. They do not care for anything in the world, including any followers they might have. They don't need them. It would be ridiculous if Cthulhu, when eating... err fighting a group of great heroes and demigods that defend the world would rely on his followers to deal with them.
7) Elder Evils are unfair, TPK-equivalent encounters that the PCs have to make fair by greatly improving the odds in their favor. WotC will try to convince you that a weak, low-CR Elder Evil that can make a fair encounter is good and that, if you want a challenge, you could always bring in more followers or conditions favorable to the Elder Evil. Don't listen to them. Instead, make the Elder Evil in such a way that it is impossible to defeat by your group of PCs unless they employ divinations to find weaknesses, equip themselves with proper weapons, prepare the right spells, bring in all available expendable resources and call/summon/hire allies. If the Elder Evil is a fair encounter and brings in mooks and chooses a favorable, for it, battlefield so it can challenge the PCs the players will either feel that you're trying to cheat them out of a deserved victory or that the Elder Evil is yet another common opponent made tough only by those favorable conditions, therefore they haven't fought with anything special. On the other hand, if the PCs have to do anything in their power to better their odds just to be able to survive the encounter, when they finally defeat the Elder Evil their sense of accomplishment will make it a fight to remember for a very long time.
Anyway, the basis of this thread is here.
Just follow these points:
1) An Elder Evil is a serious threat of such magnitude that, if left unchecked, has the ability to destroy a nation (if of the smaller evils), a continent (if of the medium evils) or the entire world (if of the greater evils)
2) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any other threat the PCs could face in a campaign.
3) An Elder Evil is supposed to be stronger than any individual creature of the world it threatens to destroy-otherwise such creatures would easily stop it.
4) The most powerful standard (non-advanced, non-templated) creatures in the world in most worlds are Dragons.
5) So far, no campaign setting lacked dragons.
6) Since all dragons eventually reach Great Wurm stage unless slain, it is safe to assume there's at least one Great Wurm Dragon, if not more.
7) The most powerful Great Wurms have a CR of 26-27.
Conclusion: Thus, for an Elder Evil to have even a chance of ending the world, it must be AT LEAST CR 26-27
Now, follow these points:
1) PCs at 20th level are supposedly capable of easily killing several CR 20 beings per day or a single CR 22-23 being.
2) PCs that know a being's strengths and weaknesses via divinations could kill beings of 1 CR higher.
3) PCs that specifically prepare through items and spells against an enemy could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
4) PCs that are willing to burn high-power expendable resources such as employ scrolls or cast 9th level spells, use rings of wishes, craft contingent spells and use rods and staves could kill beings of 2 CR higher.
5) PCs that bring in one-time allies such a Greater Planar Ally, a cohort or NPCs that owe major favors, could kill beings 1 CR higher.
Conclusion: Thus a group of 20th level PCs that find an enemy's strengths and weaknesses through Divinations, prepare accordingly with spells and items, gather and spend many expendable resources and bring in allies and cohorts could, in a very difficult for them fight, eliminate beings in the CR 28-29 range.
Final conclusion:
The CR 16-25 WotC Elder Evils are laughable both when compared to the CR 27 dragons that exist in any world (or equally powerful Archmages or classed creatures) and in what a forewarned, prepared, fully armed, optimised and supported party of 20th level PCs could kill. Thus, WotC Elder Evils-especially those at CR 20 and below-are wimps and must be upgraded with several doses of badass and a couple doses of awesome.
So, this thread is intended as a workplace for anyone wishing to remake existing Elder Evils, stat out the actual Elder Evils where WotC statted only an aspect of them (Atropus, Pandorym) or even make new ones (how about statting some Lovecraftian Horrors?)
General advice:
1) Elder Evils are world-ending threats. Even the weaker of them should be as strong as the strongest of dragons. Just like a Great Wurm Red Dragon is a serious threat for a kingdom, a kingdom-threatening Elder Evil should be just as strong. World-threatening Elder Evils should be much tougher.
2) Fighting an Elder Evil is an epic fight. Elder Evils should be either largely immune to cheap tricks or tough enough that a single cheap trick won't have much of an effect. Any such fight should be long and tough, requiring the PCs to spend all their resources to defeat the Elder Evil.
3) Elder Evils should be largely immune to any mundane danger and lesser threats, no matter the number of those threats. A realm should not be able to field an army to fight an Elder Evil as is now possible with many WotC Elder Evils that can be shot to death by ballistae, catapults or large numbers of troops with flaming arrows. High level powers and abilities should be required to harm them.
4) An Elder Evil is supposed to be opposed by PCs of lower ECL than its CR, often much lower if said PCs are prepared, forewarned, fully armed and supported by allies and the final battle is supposed to be really tough. As a result, do not give the Elder Evil attacks that spell instant-death to PCs of lower levels. Instead, boost its defences to the point that lower level PCs have to spend serious resources in a long, drawn-out battle to kill it even if they are prepared especially for it. Alternatively, you can give the Elder Evil some very powerful, very scary attacks that can be blocked fairly easily at very high levels. E.g. attacks based on Death effects or Compulsions. This means an unprepared party is dead meat but a prepared one can fight normally.
5) An Elder Evil should have a number of nasty, frightening attacks that cannot be blocked but aren't that powerful. Players tend to load up on defences then wade in combat carelessly, knowing they are protected by an enemy's defences if they research that enemy's abilities, rendering powerful enemies a cakewalk. E.g. resist elements and mind blank reduce the Balor to doing a whooping 30 damage per round to a single opponent unless he tries to dispel in which case he has less than 50% chance to dispel and does nothing in that round. An Elder Evil should be scary and the players should take it seriously. Giving it an attack or two that does some scary things but isn't totaling the PCs in one blow goes a long way into teaching them that they are not invulnerable.
6) While an Elder Evil may have followers, mortal or not, do not fill the final fight with its followers. There are several reasons for that. First, the more followers in the final fight, the weaker the Elder Evil has to be for the PCs not to be totaled. So, no followers means the strongest Elder Evil possible, which is what we want. Secondly, the PCs should have already fought a crapload of its followers during the campaign in an attempt to stop their plans to hasten the Elder Evil's attack. After a time, it becomes repetitive. In addition, most followers are mooks-they shouldn't be any challenge at all to a party that could take on an Elder Evil. Finally, and perhaps most important of all, Elder Evils want to destroy/eat/obliterate the entire world. They do not care for anything in the world, including any followers they might have. They don't need them. It would be ridiculous if Cthulhu, when eating... err fighting a group of great heroes and demigods that defend the world would rely on his followers to deal with them.
7) Elder Evils are unfair, TPK-equivalent encounters that the PCs have to make fair by greatly improving the odds in their favor. WotC will try to convince you that a weak, low-CR Elder Evil that can make a fair encounter is good and that, if you want a challenge, you could always bring in more followers or conditions favorable to the Elder Evil. Don't listen to them. Instead, make the Elder Evil in such a way that it is impossible to defeat by your group of PCs unless they employ divinations to find weaknesses, equip themselves with proper weapons, prepare the right spells, bring in all available expendable resources and call/summon/hire allies. If the Elder Evil is a fair encounter and brings in mooks and chooses a favorable, for it, battlefield so it can challenge the PCs the players will either feel that you're trying to cheat them out of a deserved victory or that the Elder Evil is yet another common opponent made tough only by those favorable conditions, therefore they haven't fought with anything special. On the other hand, if the PCs have to do anything in their power to better their odds just to be able to survive the encounter, when they finally defeat the Elder Evil their sense of accomplishment will make it a fight to remember for a very long time.