OOTS #532 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

For an odd bit of convergence, check today's Erfworld as well.

[Yendor]

Kind of sad you have to go to these lengths to dispel insane theories.

EDIT: Isn't it 16 weeks? Roy spent 103 days on the mountain, plus nine more going back to Eugene. Unless they have an eight-day week...

[schwarzc]

aaah, durokan - how sweet ;)

great comic :)


btw: second :D

[CGCL_Andy]

Lame Hippie Hairband! heheh!

Nice comic as always! :smallsmile:

[FoE]

"Can't get enough of your love" indeed. :smallamused:

[Hyrael]

Awwwwwwww. That's a sweet ending. But, Mostly Hilarious.

Heavy Exposition, but sometimes that just cant be avoided. that ending made it all worth it. I have a particular weakness for conjuration-based jokes.

Also, "hippie hair Band."

Great Strip.

[Bayar]

NIce comic...but who did Dorukan summoned in the last panel?

[Courier]

Wow, nicely summed up! I guess strips like these are a definite necessity to put an end to the arguing (ah, who am I kidding... some of the arguing) but it's great that you could finish it off with such humor. :D

[cha0s4a11]

NIce comic...but who did Dorukan summoned in the last panel?

Lirian. Nice SoD tie-in on The Giant's part btw.

[Ganurath]

NIce comic...but who did Dorukan summoned in the last panel?Liriel? Lirial? The elf druid from Order of the Scribble. The halfling girl's diary had hinted at a romantic interest. All hail Teleportation Circle!

[Rygar]

Pretty cool. Chekhov's Gun tells us the missing week in their math will be important.

Also random sexism is funny (but only when directed at men apparently).

[Kuneko]

Is that... Lirian? :smalleek:

Great comic, Giant.

[shadowdemon_lord]

Awesome comic Giant, keep up the good work.

[Rockphed]

Also random sexism is funny (but only when directed at men apparently).

No, it is still funny when applied to women, you just have to do it right. If you do it wrong, then bad things happen to you!

[Ettlesby]

Nice comic, as always.

So, uh, were the Subway references in both comics coincidental, or was that planned?

It sounded coincidental, but...oh well.

Whoops, never mind. Already answered.

[RTGoodman]

I need an epic hippie hairband... :smalltongue:

And I agree with Rygar that the one week difference is gonna be hugely important somehow.

[LtNOWIS]

Oh man. Those are the three elemental Sigil guardians going to SerfWay. Celia, the Earth girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html), and the heretofore-unseen Fire girl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html).

[Yendor]

And I agree with Rygar that the one week difference is gonna be hugely important somehow.
But they're actually one week off in the other direction, because it's been 16 weeks, not 14. So there's five weeks to go.

[SPoD]

Liriel? Lirial? The elf druid from Order of the Scribble. The halfling girl's diary had hinted at a romantic interest. All hail Teleportation Circle!

In Start of Darkness, we see that Lirian and Dorukan had a long-distance relationship while guarding the Gates for the first 30 years. This must be one of their secret meetings.


Pretty cool. Chekhov's Gun tells us the missing week in their math will be important.

Unlikely; they're talking MINIMUM weeks, knowing that if Xykon is higher level, it will be longer. So if it's seven weeks, they'll just go, "Oh, I guess he was 21st level." If it's twelve weeks, they'll go, "Oh, I guess he was 26th level. Crap!"


So, uh, were the Subway references in both comics coincidental, or was that planned?

It sounded coincidental, but...oh well.

Read the News article for today ("Cosmic Convergence of the Minds"), on the top of the sidebar at the left.

[TheRitalinKid]

Nice comic as always, but who is this fairy in the title?

Did anyone else wonder for a second why going to safeway was funny?

[Solo]

Pimpin' summon spell.

[Mr._Michael]

Hmmm.... we're hungry for more comics, the Artists are hungry for Subway, Dorukan was hungry for...

Hmmm...

[Finn Solomon]

Oh, so that's why she wanted hot peppers. Nice job, Giant!

[Popkorn]

I love the comic

and the best is the barry white song
i just red the words and the song was right in my head ^^

so hilarious ^^

[KindaChang]

Hehehe, hippie hairbands...

[Mr._Michael]

Just a side note... if the Cloister spell works on all living creatures, can anybody see Roy's body if they search for it? :smallconfused:

[Zebasiz]

So THAT'S what Cloister is... So obvious now. :smallbiggrin:

[SPoD]

Just a side note... if the Cloister spell works on all living creatures, can anybody see Roy's body if they search for it? :smallconfused:

Eugene already said that scrying only works on creatures, not objects. Roy's body is an object.

Interestingly, that means that it would not work on Xykon himself, though as an epic lich, he probably has his own protections from scrying.

[Ettlesby]

In Start of Darkness, we see that Lirian and Dorukan had a long-distance relationship while guarding the Gates for the first 30 years. This must be one of their secret meetings.



Unlikely; they're talking MINIMUM weeks, knowing that if Xykon is higher level, it will be longer. So if it's seven weeks, they'll just go, "Oh, I guess he was 21st level." If it's twelve weeks, they'll go, "Oh, I guess he was 26th level. Crap!"



Read the News article for today ("Cosmic Convergence of the Minds"), on the top of the sidebar at the left.

Ah, I didn't see it. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Porthos]

Barry White?

Ohhhh, yeahhhh! :smallcool:

[metal_man465]

great comic!

[Prowl]

Little nitpick on the logic of the Cloister spell as per the exposition... if you could cast any of the blocked spells freely from within the cloister, then there would be no need to build in an exemption for summoning - you'd be within the cloister and therefore immune to its blocking. The cloister as explained works against outside magic coming in, but NOT inside magic going out.

[The Giant]

But they're actually one week off in the other direction, because it's been 16 weeks, not 14. So there's five weeks to go.

Yeah, I just noticed this too. I was hoping no one had figured out that I forgot to add in the two weeks it took Roy to get back DOWN the mountain, but I was too late.

It's fixed now, even though it's not really that important.


Little nitpick on the logic of the Cloister spell as per the exposition... if you could cast any of the blocked spells freely from within the cloister, then there would be no need to build in an exemption for summoning - you'd be within the cloister and therefore immune to its blocking. The cloister as explained works against outside magic coming in, but NOT inside magic going out.

Well, I figured there's a chance that technically, Summon magic goes out and then comes back in. I'm no wizard, you know, it might work that way. And I imagined the Cloister as blocking all magic coming in.

Besides, if I didn't call it out, you just know there'd be a 12-page thread about why was Celia able to be summoned.

[musicnerd]

Hee, I love Lirian and Dorukan! All of the flashbacks were great. :smallbiggrin:

[Corestimah]

I hope that Rich sits down one day and writes up stats for the various spells and other goodies in OotS for use in actual D&D, specifically:

Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (The Horror! The Horror!)
The Dashing Swordsman Prestige Class (Parry! And thrust! And Quip! AGAIN!)
Cloister (Ladies and gentlemen, Azure City is officially off the grid.)

And any other ones that I forgot about. That would be very nice :smallbiggrin:

(For those who would want a Ring of Jumping +20, by the formulas in the DMG it would cost 40,000 gp.)

[mause]

so the predictions and dorukan were right.....

[Knight13]

I have to admit, we men sure do like our overkill.


Just a side note... if the Cloister spell works on all living creatures, can anybody see Roy's body if they search for it?

No, remember that Cloister targets both an area of land AND the creatures in that area at the time of casting. While Roy's body may not have been specifically targeted by the spell, it is still within the area of effect. Even if someone wasn't in the area of effect at the time of casting, and therefore wasn't targeted by the spell, they still can't be scryed upon as long as they're within the spell.

[SlightlyEvil]

Great comic. The whole Cloister thing finally makes sense, given that we've had months of rampant speculation with no real specifics.

Also:

I hope that Rich sits down one day and writes up stats for the various spells and other goodies in OotS for use in actual D&D, specifically:

Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (The Horror! The Horror!)
The Dashing Swordsman Prestige Class (Parry! And thrust! And Quip! AGAIN!)
Cloister (Ladies and gentlemen, Azure City is officially off the grid.)

And any other ones that I forgot about. That would be very nice :smallbiggrin:

Strongly seconded.

[plainsfox]

"There is no such thing as overkill. There is only Fire and Reload"
Overkill solves many, many, many, many problems ;)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Dorukan! Lirian!
Dorukan and Lyrian's souls entrapped in a gemstone!
Original Costume Celia!

I can deal with this amount of exposition when the flashbacks are this awesome. And the update is this long. Very nice.

[Morgan Wick]

Just a side note... if the Cloister spell works on all living creatures, can anybody see Roy's body if they search for it? :smallconfused:

Unlikely; Eugene and Roy couldn't scry on it and they had Epic Inside (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html). (Edit: Ninja'd. Took me a while to write this!)

I actually doubt the missing week will be a Chekhov's Gun for a different reason: it's clearly intended to be funny. I found myself wondering if it was referring to some difference between editions. However, the mere fact that Haley and Belkar can't be contacted until at least the point that they reach Cliffport IS a Chekhov's Gun if only because I'm a little surprised Rich is giving so much of Cloister away in one strip. How it will manifest I don't know.

(Want to know what else was a very effective Chekhov's Gun? In 531 Celia says that "eventually" people can scry on Haley again. Which, when you think about it, implies they won't be able to do so immediately. Tasty, tasty biscuit, Rich!)

This was literally, like, an hour or less after I said the "Cloister was Dorukan's spell" idea simultaneously was growing on me and would be debunked. (Seriously, did Rich have this strip planned out in this form all that far in advance?) The fact it's now been confirmed, incidentially, debunks any form of "Cloister is interfering with Roy's ability to contact Haley" theory too, since Eugene didn't have any problem contacting Roy in the Dungeon, and we learn here that Cloister was (in all likelihood, anyway) in effect for the first several strips. (You could argue that the OOTS in the Dungeon, unlike Haley in Azure City, wasn't within the Dungeon when Xykon re-erected Cloister, but then Roy would be able to contact Celia, who wasn't in Azure City when Xykon erected Cloister there either.)

Oh, and Cliffport is "more than six weeks" (now "way more than four weeks") away? Maybe Rich does have some sort of sense of scale after all!

[factotum]

So, how long is it before David Argall appears to try and support his dead and lifeless theory that Haley actually told Celia about the Cloister spell? :smallwink:

I actually LOLed at seeing Dorukan summoning Lirian--goes to show that the Giant's promise that anything important appearing in the prequel books would be explained in the main strip when necessary is bang on the money!

[Syraider]

this is a good comic xD:smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool: :smallcool:

[Senko]

Just wanted to point out Giant that the appearance of subway logos in both comics might be a warning against going rather than a hint you need a terriyak sub.

[Chocowatte]

Well... there goes my "Summon Chastity Belt" theory.

~
BoW-Chicka-BoW-Wow!

[Aquillion]

So... this also means that unless something happens to disrupt it, we'll eventually know Xykon's exact caster level (although not necessarily his actual level, aside from 21+, since he could be using items / abilities that boost it.)

[H. Zee]

Huzzah! I get the feeling that finally Haley has an inkling of what's going on, more so than any other living member of the Order of the Stick.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Fun comic...nice how both ootS and Erfworld went to Subway today...now that is some wacked out timing.

[Morgan Wick]

So... this also means that unless something happens to disrupt it, we'll eventually know Xykon's exact caster level (although not necessarily his actual level, aside from 21+, since he could be using items / abilities that boost it.)

Now that I think about it, the revelation that Cloister applies even after Haley leaves may not be so much a Chekhov's Gun than an attempt by Rich to preemptively explain why V wouldn't just contact Haley, both to head off having to explain it to Haley later and to head off a "12-page thread" here on the forums.

In other words, what it really means is that Haley, Belkar, and Celia are not going to be "rescued" in any way until they reach Cliffport, and once they find a spellcaster there, it doesn't matter that they themselves can't be contacted. Which could mean we'll never find out the exact moment that Cloister wears off.

(In fact, I just got a really weird, yet really plausible, theory. What if the spellcaster they find and get to contact V/Elan/Durkon is... Julia? Roy is counting on Julia to be able to see him, but there's now basically no reason for him to contact anyone, and the fact that he IS explicitly counting on it makes it doubtful. But what if they arrive in Cliffport and Haley remembers why they were there the last time, and says to Celia, "Hey, let's track down Roy's sister", just because she's a Cliffport spellcaster Haley knows of and this way they don't have to go hunting around willy-nilly?)

[Mordokai]

Great fun this comic was indeed!

/Yoda speech off

I had fun and while all the exposition isn't my favourite kind of spending time I understand it's neccesary. Still nice to see moving of the plot. And the last panel was just great.

[Yendor]

(In fact, I just got a really weird, yet really plausible, theory. What if the spellcaster they find and get to contact V/Elan/Durkon is... Julia? Roy is counting on Julia to be able to see him, but there's now basically no reason for him to contact anyone, and the fact that he IS explicitly counting on it makes it doubtful. But what if they arrive in Cliffport and Haley remembers why they were there the last time, and says to Celia, "Hey, let's track down Roy's sister", just because she's a Cliffport spellcaster Haley knows of and this way they don't have to go hunting around willy-nilly?)
Julia's only 3rd level (well, she was last time Roy checked), so she won't be much help to them. But she is at a wizards' school, so there'll be more than enough spellcasters able to help. They may bump into Julia while there.

Another possibility is that V and Durkon decide ... to contact Celia. And maybe arrange a rendezvous at Greysky City. (On the other hand, V may know why Haley wants to avoid going there.)

[Prowl]

Well, I figured there's a chance that technically, Summon magic goes out and then comes back in. I'm no wizard, you know, it might work that way. And I imagined the Cloister as blocking all magic coming in.

Besides, if I didn't call it out, you just know there'd be a 12-page thread about why was Celia able to be summoned.

Fair enough... if some uber D&D nerd has an explanation of the gameplay mechanics of summoning, and it doesn't turn out to require both in and out, we can always chalk it up the exposition fairy being a blonde.

[Eogan]

Fair enough... if some uber D&D nerd has an explanation of the gameplay mechanics of summoning, and it doesn't turn out to require both in and out, we can always chalk it up the exposition fairy being a blonde.

Or that Lirian had someone set to summon her back after an appropriate number of dozens, nay! severals of hours. :smallwink:

[Demented]

Actually, it would've been a 22-page thread. And we've been holding off on it on the hope and whimsy that an explanation would be forthcoming. :baldlie:


One wonders why Roy paid so much attention to Epic...

[Yerocha]

So...would that make it a Booty summoning?

[Elfanatic]

Hmmmm...subway sandwiches.

Also:
Dorukan! Play on playah!

[Max_Sinister]

So Dorukan was successful with Lirian after all... I wouldn't have guessed.

And yes Giant, nice bit of convergence.

[KetsuruiLLauve]

Hell yeah subway :tongue: I've managed a pair of them for over a year and a half now, we're everywhere.

I had the teriyaki for dinner tonight.

[Hzurr]

Hang on, if Cloister blocks teleportation, how did they teleport to Cliffport in #340 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)?

Edit: Nothing to see here, I definately did not roll a natural 1 on my "remember the freaking story" check.

[Majorman]

Wow, Dorukan is a keen fan of Kiss:smallbiggrin: I can't believe they are coming to my godforsaken country this May!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Hang on, if Cloister blocks teleportation, how did they teleport to Cliffport in #340 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html)?

...Perhaps because the Cloister wasn't up then? :xykon: cast it on the city immediately after taking it.

[Hzurr]

...Perhaps because the Cloister wasn't up then? :xykon: cast it on the city immediately after taking it.

Ah, good call. For some reason I just assumed that Durukon put the cloister spell on all the gates, but re-reading it, I see that I am, in fact, a moron.


Everyone go on about your business, nothing to see here

[banjo1985]

Nice one Dorukan, good to know you knew how to treat a lady :smallamused:

Hey good-looking, how about I transport you over here...Dorukan style? And seeing the Subway reference I am now hungry.

[schwarzc]

i wonder, if any remove/dispel magic works, and if the lvl-requirements lower themselves with the duration of the spell, once, they are outside the city ... ?

[hewhosaysfish]

Wow. Dorukan, Lirien and an unidentified bard. Saucy!

[Niknokitueu]

All hail the giant!

This comic was just awesome. Realy liked it, both from a humour viewpoint and a storytelling one.
"I wonder what he summoned that was important enough to leave a big gaping hole in his \uber-spell..." :smallwink:

Pretty cool. Chekhov's Gun tells us the missing week in their math will be important.

Also random sexism is funny (but only when directed at men apparently).
You betcha. Just wait four (story) weeks for the punchline.

Eidt:
D'oH! Just remembered, Rich's OotS-time works at the speed of plot. Ie if it is important, it will be so, and if it is not important, it will not be so.

Also note that 'speed of plot' kills off any possibility of working out the lich's exact spellcaster level, merely that he has to be Epic in order to cast it at all...

And as to random sexism: directed at men, it is funny. Directed at women, it can be deadpan. If directed at my wife, it can be very dangerous...

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Wow - just looked up 'Chekov's gun' on wikkipedia. Turns out it is just a fancy phrase for 'plot element' :smallbiggrin:

[Adeptus]

Epic wizards get the nicest bedrooms.

[Roderick_BR]

Kind of sad you have to go to these lengths to dispel insane theories.

EDIT: Isn't it 16 weeks? Roy spent 103 days on the mountain, plus nine more going back to Eugene. Unless they have an eight-day week...
Doesn't Forgotten Realms have 10 days weeks?

Anyway, we now know that Dorukan was... human :smallbiggrin:
I love it. There's just too many things to count of how awesomeness this exposition was, starting by the title!

hmm... one week for caster level.. shouldn't it be, like 20 weeks? Or 21, as Roy pointed out. That should be *some* time....

[FujinAkari]

Besides, if I didn't call it out, you just know there'd be a 12-page thread about why was Celia able to be summoned.

What? Us argue eternally over unnecessary quibbles of faux-logic? Whatever makes you think that?

*adjusts her halo?*

In all seriousness though, I feel a bit silly saying this after the arguement went so long about it, but it appears David's original assertion (that teleportation was blocked) was correct. Ironically, his conclusion was based on incorrect evidence (Haley not having left the city proved that movement was magically restricted) but the conclusion proved correct anyway :P.

Congratulations, and hopefully this'll put an end to the rampant speculative arguments!

[Niknokitueu]

Congratulations, and hopefully this'll put an end to the rampant speculative arguments!
If you really belive that, then I have some shares in Northern Rock I would like to sell you :smalltongue:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

[FujinAkari]

If you really belive that, then I have some shares in Northern Rock I would like to sell you :smalltongue:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

I don't believe it, but I look like the rational one when I make a statement hoping to end frivolous debate :P

[EntilZha]

Last panel: (insert porno movie music here) :smallbiggrin:

[SteveMB]

Fair enough... if some uber D&D nerd has an explanation of the gameplay mechanics of summoning, and it doesn't turn out to require both in and out

Must... resist... off-color jokes....

[Zanatos777]

Hey I had a thought, Celia says that Dorukan used several powerful arcane spells and says epic spells. What were the other spells? Any ideas?

[Ascension]

Wow. Dorukan, Lirien and an unidentified bard. Saucy!

Come now, he's an epic-level spellcaster. I'm fairly certain he wouldn't want to have bards mucking about in his bedroom, and he certainly has the power to create something like a music box... or something.

[Sengoku]

Even with only a panel to speak Xykon always robs my laugh :smallwink:

[Bendal]

Well, it's obvious now why Dorukan left the summoning hole in his Cloister spell. Hard to bring his date in if he couldn't transport her to him magically!

Nice, plausible explanation as to why Celia didn't have any trouble popping in to Azure City.

[stickygoo]

So...

If SUBway sells subs... what does SERFway sell?:smalleek:

[Forum Explorer]

Great comic!

[The Tygre]

Brilliant, as usual. And once again, arch-mages steal the show.:smallbiggrin:

Keep up the good work, Giant!

[Fabio_MP]

nice comic!

but I want the order to stick together once again :)

[Vercingex]

Good to see that the plot may start moving again soon.

And Dorukan wouldn't have any trouble creating ambiance music. A number of Illusion spells, from Ghost Sound to Persistent Image, can create music.

[Mauve Shirt]

Heeheehee I love this comic!

[Lord Herman]

Yay! Another two-page strip! Thanks, Giant!

[Keri Thornwood]

Security be danged... one must always make way for the Love Monkey!

[Faramir]

Whew! Thank you exposition fairy!

Anyway, there is one potential loophole that Celia and Haley can exploit:


If they get Roy raised then he will not be blocked by the Cloister spell as it only affects living beings. This could shorten the time it takes for V to find them. Not a major point but it could be a significant one.

What do you want to bet Roy is the first one to figure it out. Poor frustrated guy...

[dish]

Aww...Lirian and Dorukan are so romantic.

It's nice to see they had some happy romance before the tragic romance of the gem stone.

And I want an epic-level lame hippy hairband.

[Daibhid C]

Nice comic as always, but who is this fairy in the title?

Celia, presumably, since she's the one doing the expositioning. I don't know if Sylphs are actually Fey in D&D terms, or Elementals, but they're magical beings that look like girls with butterfly wings, which is a reasonable definition of "fairy" for most people.

Incidentally, anyone know what race Celia's fire and earth counterparts were?

[Kronk]

And I want an epic-level lame hippy hairband.

I need to get my eyes checked...for a sec there I read that as

"I want an epic-level lame hippy husband" and everybody knows those went out of style 40 years ago.

[jeffish11]

Hey Fellow Detectives,

What's up with the green bird in the 6th panel with Celia? Is it somehow related to Lirian and Dorukan since they both wear green, or does it have something to do with Cloister disappearing? Maybe it's just a green bird, but it seemed out of place for some reason.

"I AM STILL AWESOME...Seriously"
Jeffish

[Morgan Wick]

...Perhaps because the Cloister wasn't up then? :xykon: cast it on the city immediately after taking it.


Ah, good call. For some reason I just assumed that Durukon put the cloister spell on all the gates, but re-reading it, I see that I am, in fact, a moron.

Everyone go on about your business, nothing to see here

Well, there wouldn't be anything blocking them from teleporting out of Azure City in that case anyway, and they don't directly teleport back in either. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0377.html)

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Good good.

For an odd bit of convergence, check today's Erfworld as well.
...I don't know what it means, exactly; either great minds think alike, or we're both hacks who mine the same material in a predictable manner.
A little from column A, a little from column B...

[estradling]

Hey Fellow Detectives,

What's up with the green bird in the 6th panel with Celia? Is it somehow related to Lirian and Dorukan since they both wear green, or does it have something to do with Cloister disappearing? Maybe it's just a green bird, but it seemed out of place for some reason.

"I AM STILL AWESOME...Seriously"
Jeffish

Most likely it is a flashback to Celia guarding the Air Sigil... Take a look at panel two of #53

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html

[David Argall]

So, how long is it before David Argall appears to try and support his dead and lifeless theory that Haley actually told Celia about the Cloister spell?

Now, now. Don't go around poking sleeping dogs unless you want to get bit, or in this case end up reading several pages of what is wrong with the Cloister spell explanation. [The explanation is derived from the needs of the plot, not from the logic of the story world. Since plot trumps logic, just as a good gag trump plot, this is the way it should be, but it still means there can be better ways that do not have the conflict.] It is time to move on now.

As several others have suggested, the several weeks Haley is still blocked has got to have some plot purpose. It is so obviously out of place otherwise. It would seem
Haley & party are going to have an adventure the rest of the part is not invited to. Tho they may show up at the rescue. If we somehow see Haley get the right date, it may prove to be only the "right" date and the others show up a fortunate bit early.

This is our first sighting of the lich in over 40 strips, and there are several loose ends involving Team Evil. We may be switching over to them fairly soon [tho I can see a possible plotline that requires we not see them for nearly the rest of the current book.]
We do confirm his level is at least 21st, and that Cloister is Epic level.

Our Serfway scene may need a little revision. The lass says "let me get" which might make sense if she was talking to one of the other girls instead of to the cashier. More important, this is not a mission at all. It would seem better to make the order 1 sub with everthing and 3 vegie subs.

In 53, the party is battling some bird off screen. Probably the bird in 532 is the same one.

We again have confirmation that our writer reads what we write, so remember to use spoilers for ideas about future strips.


I actually LOLed at seeing Dorukan summoning Lirian--goes to show that the Giant's promise that anything important appearing in the prequel books would be explained in the main strip when necessary is bang on the money!
That Dorukan and Lirian had the hots for each other is also mentioned in the strip. It also doesn't need any identification with Lirian [tho it may later]. For the moment, it is merely fixing a plothole, giving an excuse for Celia to be summonsed.

[RandomLogic]

The last panel is excellent. Well played Giant... well played.

[Blaznak]

Wow! Who cast an epic level spell of "Prohibit Access-ius" on the Forum group, today! Huge troubles connecting.

Oh well, my two coppers on today was a good duo strip. The exposition was good seemed to leave open a number of questions. I loved that Roy, once again, was probably the most technically savvy on spell lore (See his hiring of V if you wonder what I mean).

Over all a fun read!

Later!

[Arkenputtyknife]

No, remember that Cloister targets both an area of land AND the creatures in that area at the time of casting. While Roy's body may not have been specifically targeted by the spell, it is still within the area of effect. Even if someone wasn't in the area of effect at the time of casting, and therefore wasn't targeted by the spell, they still can't be scryed upon as long as they're within the spell.
This suggests that Roy's body would be detectable (by a suitable spell) as soon as they get it outside the Cloister's area of effect. Possible loophole for V if he/she/it/they thinks of it.


Well, I figured there's a chance that technically, Summon magic goes out and then comes back in. I'm no wizard, you know, it might work that way. And I imagined the Cloister as blocking all magic coming in.
Not to nitpick, but… ah, to heck with it. To nitpick! This sounds a lot like some very old theories of vision: that the eye emits particles and thus sees whatever they hit. (The fact that you can't see in the dark poses a problem for this theory.) In reality, information flows from the thing being observed to the observer, and it's hard to find a way around that even in a fantasy setting. If a scrying spell involves somehow going out the person being scryed, then it also involves bringing the scryed information back.


Wow, Dorukan is a keen fan of Kiss:smallbiggrin:
He is? I missed that; not up on my pop culture. Another possible Erfworld coincidence?


ps. Wow - just looked up 'Chekov's gun' on wikkipedia. Turns out it is just a fancy phrase for 'plot element' :smallbiggrin:
That's really missing the point. They key thing about Chekhov's Gun is the idea that something that appears early in the story must be put to use before the end of the story. Personally, I don't care for it and like to see a few juicy red herrings in a story — Chekhov's Duds — but it's a useful way of trying to predict the author's intentions.


Must... resist... off-color jokes....
Here. Have an orange. It's clockwork.


Our Serfway scene may need a little revision. The lass says "let me get" which might make sense if she was talking to one of the other girls instead of to the cashier.
This kind of English abuse happens all the time in fast food (and similar) joints. Listen carefully next time you're standing in line.

Ack! I've responded to an Argall post. I'm doomed… doomed, I tell you!

Gotta go. I hear a foot-long ham and turkey calling my name.

[Jayngfet]

Best. Summon. Spell. Ever.

[Arkenputtyknife]

What's up with the green bird in the 6th panel with Celia? Is it somehow related to Lirian and Dorukan since they both wear green, or does it have something to do with Cloister disappearing? Maybe it's just a green bird, but it seemed out of place for some reason.
Probably completely wrong, but I interpreted it as Dorukan's spirit on its way to wherever it was going in the afterlife. The association of birds with spirits of the departed is fairly common in many cultures.

[bibliophile]

[QUOTE=
Here. Have an orange. It's clockwork.
[/QUOTE]


Also keep in mind that the anti-dirty joke effect of this marvolous fruit is greatest when consumed in conjunction with some Beethoven in the background.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Oddly enough there is a magical item that functions almost exactly like Cloister in D&D already.

Its called a Weirdstone and active (it must be placed on a flat surface to be active.)

It blocked with in a six mile radius all Astral & Ethereal travel spells as well as teleportation, all scrying spells targeted with in the area. But such effects could be targeted outside the zone from with in and used normally.


So except for a couple minor details such as its effect extending to people after they leave the area. It functions much as the Cloister spell.

[AutomatedTeller]

Wow, Dorukan is a keen fan of Kiss:smallbiggrin: I can't believe they are coming to my godforsaken country this May!

I assume you are talking about music in the last panel... that's not KISS, it's Barry White.

[Doctor Zuber]

ROFL. The little flashes (like panels 6 and 7) tell the story so eloquently now that we can see them in context. =P Such a beautiful example of Xycon. I'll have to dig back in the story, I think panel 6 is actually a direct quote from an older comic, but I'll have to check when the site is a bit less lagged out.

This answers some questions, I had basically assumed that some sort of anti-scrying spell was in effect, pretty reasonable precaution really now that they've conquered the area. I had sort of assumed it would be something redcloak would have cooked up though, having it be pure coincidence due to Xycon's general random insanity is just downright hilarious.

This is a beautiful resolution to a bunch of open questions. The additional 5+ week delay is a drag, but as they pointed out they're going to blow about that much in travel time anyhow. Besides we just skipped about 3 months already. What does another 5 weeks matter now? Most of that will probably be skipped also. With luck we'll be back to actual story progression fairly soon really.

[Platinum_Mongoose]

Between this, Erfworld, and your newspost about it, I wonder if Subway is seeing an increase in profit today?

[Caerwyn]

Hey Fellow Detectives,

What's up with the green bird in the 6th panel with Celia? Is it somehow related to Lirian and Dorukan since they both wear green, or does it have something to do with Cloister disappearing? Maybe it's just a green bird, but it seemed out of place for some reason.


EDIT: never mind my previous post. I'm an idiot. :smallredface:

I think that was when she was in the air sigil dungeon. Air creatures and all that.

Caerwyn

[Bitzeralisis]

Oh, so that's what Cloister is.

[Runa]

Celia, presumably, since she's the one doing the expositioning. I don't know if Sylphs are actually Fey in D&D terms, or Elementals, but they're magical beings that look like girls with butterfly wings, which is a reasonable definition of "fairy" for most people.

It's also a common idiomatic construction in English, the whole "the [something] fairy" I mean. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but suffice it to say that Rich's usage actually is perfectly in line with the way I've always seen and heard it used (which is to say, to say something at least mildly snarky - in this case, pointing out the rather convenient way in which Haley's ignorance and Celia's knowledge allow the reader to play catchup, in an amusing and vaguely "I know have to do this, but at least I'm acknowledging it up front!" manner). As well as, obviously, being a pun on the fact that Celia looks kinda like the the tooth fairy's third cousin twice removed. :P What with the wings and all.


Have Fun!
Niknokitueu
ps. Wow - just looked up 'Chekov's gun' on wikkipedia. Turns out it is just a fancy phrase for 'plot element'

No it's not. It's a fancy phrase for "thing we have to introduce early so folks don't get frustrated that the story was resolved by used of something they weren't shown earlier and so smarty-pants fans can be all smug about seeing it coming." Also, it's generally an actual item. Like a gun on the wall that we notice in the first act and gets used to fend off the murderer at the end of the play.

Rather more specific, in other words, than just "plot element". :smallwink:

Interestingly enough, I think Babylon 5 actually had an episode that subverts the entire Chekov's Gun trope by introducing a literal gun (an antique one) that gets talked about extensively in an early act of the the show... and goes completely unused for the rest of the show, just to subvert viewers' automatic assumptions. Or so I'm told, anyway - I've never been able to see most of B5, which makes me quite sad.

-Runa

[Qov]

Ha ha! I though Rich didn't read the forums. But we aren't THAT predictable, he must have been reading. And he continues to mock us so well.

The frame with Celia and her buddies at the Serfway is very well crafted. It's cute, of course, and the simple line "I want hot peppers on mine" serves to jog our memory to identify the three as earth, air and fire sylphs, is funny because ha, of course she wants hot peppers, AND it shows how truly trivial the mission is: they're not even getting lunch for the boss, they're getting their OWN lunches, and they're so not busy that all three of them go when one could have. It also makes me sad. It hadn't occurred to me before that the "why are you cleaving my soft defenseless flesh with that axe?" sylph was Celia's friend.

Points go to the people who said Celia would have learned about the spell from working for Dorukan. But if you pumped your fist in the air last strip because you had argued all along that they should have just left the city to escape the radius of the spell, then you lose points, because HA it wouldn't work. No one guessed that the reason Celia could be summoned was a special exception for summoning so Dorukan could get it on with his girlfriend. And just as well, as anyone seriously suggesting such a thing would be mocked mercilessly.

If I'm reading correctly, cloister could be the reason Roy can't talk to anyone. I'm guessing he'll be able to talk to Celia once they leave the area of effect, and to Haley once the effect wears off. The ghost flumph could talk to the regular flumphs because they were all under the cloister spell at time of casting.

If I'd been Rich I would have waited a day before revealing why Celia could be summoned, just to laugh at everyone arguing about it on the forums.

[teratorn]

The frame with Celia and her buddies at the Serfway is very well crafted. It's cute, of course, and the simple line "I want hot peppers on mine" serves to jog our memory to identify the three as earth, air and fire sylphs, is funny because ha, of course she wants hot peppers,
Wow, you're smart (or I'm particularly stupid, better stick with my first guess). I didn't notice that.


It also makes me sad. It hadn't occurred to me before that the "why are you cleaving my soft defenseless flesh with that axe?" sylph was Celia's friend.
Ok, I didn't think about that either, but that's necessarily lack of "smartness", just being callous.


The ghost flumph could talk to the regular flumphs because they were all under the cloister spell at time of casting.
I think they arrived after the spell, when they heard the news about the city becoming monster friendly.


If I'd been Rich I would have waited a day before revealing why Celia could be summoned, just to laugh at everyone arguing about it on the forums.
Ah, you're also evil!

[Morgan Wick]

As several others have suggested, the several weeks Haley is still blocked has got to have some plot purpose. It is so obviously out of place otherwise. It would seem
Haley & party are going to have an adventure the rest of the part is not invited to. Tho they may show up at the rescue. If we somehow see Haley get the right date, it may prove to be only the "right" date and the others show up a fortunate bit early.
The idea has occured to me that it is rarely as easy as a plot we know of may seem. Something tells me Haley and Celia will run into something like Nale having taken over Cliffport, or unavoidably redirected to Greysky City and captured there.


This is our first sighting of the lich in over 40 strips, and there are several loose ends involving Team Evil. We may be switching over to them fairly soon [tho I can see a possible plotline that requires we not see them for nearly the rest of the current book.] Given the lengthy period Haley and Celia are planning on traveling, presumably without entering any sizeable cities, switching elsewhere soon is a good bet. But I have a feeling it will be V/Elan/Durkon's group we switch to.


More important, this is not a mission at all.
Celia calls it an "important mission" so that the disconnect is funny.


We again have confirmation that our writer reads what we write, so remember to use spoilers for ideas about future strips.
Generally, I do, just when I'm being fairly specific about them.


Wow! Who cast an epic level spell of "Prohibit Access-ius" on the Forum group, today! Huge troubles connecting.
That would be Rich Burlew, and it's also known as the spell called "Post New Strip". Always causes a huge clog during business hours in the US regardless of when the strip itself goes up. Methinks the place needs more bandwidth.


If I'm reading correctly, cloister could be the reason Roy can't talk to anyone. I'm guessing he'll be able to talk to Celia once they leave the area of effect, and to Haley once the effect wears off. The ghost flumph could talk to the regular flumphs because they were all under the cloister spell at time of casting.
As I believe I mentioned earlier, then how could Eugene talk to Roy in the Dungeon of Dorukan?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Between this, Erfworld, and your newspost about it, I wonder if Subway is seeing an increase in profit today?

At least +1! Subway Club, toasted, pepperjack cheese. :smallbiggrin:

[Wonton]

Heheh... when the Serfway clerk spoke, I just imagined the voice of that teenager from the Simpsons who always had jobs like that.

[TheRitalinKid]

Celia, presumably, since she's the one doing the expositioning. I don't know if Sylphs are actually Fey in D&D terms, or Elementals, but they're magical beings that look like girls with butterfly wings, which is a reasonable definition of "fairy" for most people.

Incidentally, anyone know what race Celia's fire and earth counterparts were?

It's also a common idiomatic construction in English, the whole "the [something] fairy" I mean. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but suffice it to say that Rich's usage actually is perfectly in line with the way I've always seen and heard it used (which is to say, to say something at least mildly snarky - in this case, pointing out the rather convenient way in which Haley's ignorance and Celia's knowledge allow the reader to play catchup, in an amusing and vaguely "I know have to do this, but at least I'm acknowledging it up front!" manner). As well as, obviously, being a pun on the fact that Celia looks kinda like the the tooth fairy's third cousin twice removed. :P What with the wings and all.

-Runa

I was actually just wondering if "The Exposition Fairy" was referring to Rich, or the more blatantly there Celia. I can easily picture Rich throwing up his hands in despair of old arguments in the forums, saying "I'm sick of all this! If that's what it takes, fine, I'll be a #!?*$%^ Exposition Fairy!"

[fractal]

Ha ha! I though Rich didn't read the forums. But we aren't THAT predictable, he must have been reading. And he continues to mock us so well.
There's a long history of Rich responding in the comic to stuff from the forums. It's most common in the first panel of a comic, referring to stuff discussed since the last comic - see Thor or Nale from the Cliffport adventures.

[ladysekhmetka]

Thank you very much Rich, for causing my dinner to be a sub tonight :smallbiggrin: Even if it wasn't from Subway (cause they close early in my town)

[Aquillion]

(In fact, I just got a really weird, yet really plausible, theory. What if the spellcaster they find and get to contact V/Elan/Durkon is... Julia? Roy is counting on Julia to be able to see him, but there's now basically no reason for him to contact anyone, and the fact that he IS explicitly counting on it makes it doubtful. But what if they arrive in Cliffport and Haley remembers why they were there the last time, and says to Celia, "Hey, let's track down Roy's sister", just because she's a Cliffport spellcaster Haley knows of and this way they don't have to go hunting around willy-nilly?)Julia doesn't live in Cliffport. She was just brought there by Nale after the kidnapping; he specifically chose that city because its laws forbid the use of magical divinations during trials.

[teratorn]

As I believe I mentioned earlier, then how could Eugene talk to Roy in the Dungeon of Dorukan?
:smallsigh: Per this strip, cloister wasn't working anymore. Dorukan had been captured by then...


Between this, Erfworld, and your newspost about it, I wonder if Subway is seeing an increase in profit today?

:smallfrown: No subs around here.

[humanpylon]

Interesting that the three sylph-types appear to be vegetarians.

[teratorn]

Interesting that the three sylph-types appear to be vegetarians.

How else could they keep their butts skinny?

EDIT: By the way, am I the only one who feels like Celia has lost sex appeal after this "big butt Haley" thing? She looks awfully skinny...

[Yendor]

Julia doesn't live in Cliffport. She was just brought there by Nale after the kidnapping; he specifically chose that city because its laws forbid the use of magical divinations during trials.
She wasn't brought to Cliffport by Nale, she attends the wizard's school there.

[Pollux]

I loved the spankin' new Dungeon of Dorukan.

[HUMVEE Driver]

I love how each of the sylphs had their own corresponding custom-colored word background. Brown for earth, blue for shy, red for fire, get it? Its the little things...

HUMVEE Driver

[David Argall]

Given the lengthy period Haley and Celia are planning on traveling, presumably without entering any sizeable cities, switching elsewhere soon is a good bet. But I have a feeling it will be V/Elan/Durkon's group we switch to.

Not impossible, but we have already seen them and so are almost up to date on what is happening. We have very little idea what has been happening with Team Evil, and there are a number of loose ends and questions to be answered [Such as why they are even here still? Xykon is the boss and he has been ready to leave since he took it over. One month to study local information, maybe, but what has he been doing the last 3 months? And why did he cast Cloister at all? At the first gate, he didn't want to be disturbed while he studied the gate, so maybe. But now there is no gate in Azure city. So why cast the spell?] And what is happening with O'Chul? And...



As I believe I mentioned earlier, then how could Eugene talk to Roy in the Dungeon of Dorukan?
Eugene had "Epic Inside" and Cloister didn't make any difference for him.

[factotum]

Probably completely wrong, but I interpreted it as Dorukan's spirit on its way to wherever it was going in the afterlife. The association of birds with spirits of the departed is fairly common in many cultures.

Guessing you've not read SoD...spoilers:


Xykon used a Soul Bind spell to trap Dorukan's spirit in the black gem we see him holding in the current strip. Dorukan's spirit has therefore not gone anywhere.


In any case, we hear them complaining about some "damn bird" off-panel in strip 53, where we see Celia for the first time...can't see why Dorukan's spirit would hang around for six months!

[Arkenputtyknife]

Guessing you've not read SoD...
Guessing you're right. Thank you.

[49888]

Ha, I read the comic, and I found the SubWay referance.

[Priceguy]

Now, now. Don't go around poking sleeping dogs unless you want to get bit, or in this case end up reading several pages of what is wrong with the Cloister spell explanation.I'm interested. Hit me.

[Felixaar]

Hey, what if Cloister being cast upon people in the city is what stops Haley and Celia (and everyone else for that matter) being able to hear and see Roy?

Also, what if it's not Celia whos pregnant... but Haley?

[FujinAkari]

Hey, what if Cloister being cast upon people in the city is what stops Haley and Celia (and everyone else for that matter) being able to hear and see Roy?

Also, what if it's not Celia whos pregnant... but Haley?

Why would that make any sense? We have had cloister explicitly spelled out to us, as far as its effects go, and paranormal communications is not part of the spell.

[T-O-E]

How did Tsukiko teleport her wights?

[Daibhid C]

How did Tsukiko teleport her wights?

The Cloister allows you to cast spells within it, you just can't cast them across the border. Tsukiko's teleport was from one part of Azure City to another, so it was all inside the area of effect.

[Blanth]

I assume you are talking about music in the last panel... that's not KISS, it's Barry White.

Wight. Barry Wight. :smallcool:

Also; Durakon is a dawg! :D

[Leo_Forestclaw]

I assume you are talking about music in the last panel... that's not KISS, it's Barry White.

Or if Dorukan is up for something a little more upbeat, the remake by Taylor Dayne...

[cror]

Nice comic. ^^

[Courier]

Why would that make any sense? We have had cloister explicitly spelled out to us, as far as its effects go, and paranormal communications is not part of the spell.

Celia said the spell prevented "sending ethereal jaunts," which seems to describe what Roy's doing. It doesn't make total sense to me why he can't be seen instead of just being sent back, but the 'can't list' under Cloister involves several things similar to what Roy is doing. (plane shifting and dimension doors for example.)

[Arkenputtyknife]

Celia said the spell prevented "sending ethereal jaunts," which seems to describe what Roy's doing. It doesn't make total sense to me why he can't be seen instead of just being sent back, but the 'can't list' under Cloister involves several things similar to what Roy is doing. (plane shifting and dimension doors for example.)
“Ethereal jaunt” is a specific term referring to the Ethereal Plane, which is one of the inner planes, and Eugene made it clear in #510 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) that they could scry into the Cloister spell's area from their location in the Outer Planes. If they can break one of Cloister's effects from there, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to break another.

[factotum]

But the strip you link you makes it clear that Eugene can break the Cloister because of the epic-level scrying ability he gets from being on the fluffy clouds--presumably, if V were capable of casting epic spells, he would also be able to scry through the barrier; location has nothing to do with it.

[OmegaDonut]

But the strip you link you makes it clear that Eugene can break the Cloister because of the epic-level scrying ability he gets from being on the fluffy clouds--presumably, if V were capable of casting epic spells, he would also be able to scry through the barrier; location has nothing to do with it.

Eugene seemed to manifest through the Cloister just fine way back in #78 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) - assuming Xykon didn't figure out Cloister just afterwards.

[David Argall]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Argall
Now, now. Don't go around poking sleeping dogs unless you want to get bit, or in this case end up reading several pages of what is wrong with the Cloister spell explanation.


I'm interested. Hit me.

The first problem is that this spell is not just epic, but EPIC!! A lot of it is game design bias, but there just are not these humongous-area effect spells in the game. I have yet to find one that affects a square mile and we have here one that goes out for several miles in all directions. As Xykon says, this is the most powerful abjuration spell ever. And our mage is simply not that powerful. Like Xykon, he is in the low 20's.

More serious is that the spell is plot derived. Any game crafter would [or rather should, since some really bad stuff does make it past the editing] reject this mismash out of hand. We have the given plot events and the desired events. So that is what the spell does. The result is a spell that makes no sense and would lead to terrible arguments in a game [and we have enough tendency to argue over clear rules.]
We can note here the addition of the spell affecting all within it for a very long time. Obvious plot device papered over a little.
And we have the summonsing hole. Even with the excuse it lets him slip in his piece without fuss, it is a gross hole in the system security. Any spy that makes it inside can call in an entire army. But plotwise, it gives an excuse for Celia showing up.

Celia's knowledge of the spell is also excessive. The spell operates in a way that doesn't need her knowledge for the most part. Indeed, without her specially given ability to detect such a spell, she should not even be aware of it. How is she to know epic level spellcasting can get past it? Or that there is an opening for summonsing spells?
Now as it happens, one way she should be aware of it, she apparently isn't. The spell should block her mother phoning, but it does not. We can patch here by saying Celia is phoning back in 53, but all the evidence we have says that it is Mom who does the phoning.

[Arkenputtyknife]

But the strip you link you makes it clear that Eugene can break the Cloister because of the epic-level scrying ability he gets from being on the fluffy clouds--presumably, if V were capable of casting epic spells, he would also be able to scry through the barrier; location has nothing to do with it.
That's not what he said. He said "This is not some elf's toy crystal ball. This is the View From Above. This is where the celestials come to watch us.” That seems a pretty clear indication that their location had a lot to do with it. Where does it say anything about epic-level spells?

[Qov]

Where does it say anything about epic-level spells?
The words "Epic Inside" are emblazoned on the scrying cloud.

[SPoD]

The first problem is that this spell is not just epic, but EPIC!! A lot of it is game design bias, but there just are not these humongous-area effect spells in the game. I have yet to find one that affects a square mile and we have here one that goes out for several miles in all directions. As Xykon says, this is the most powerful abjuration spell ever. And our mage is simply not that powerful. Like Xykon, he is in the low 20's.

More serious is that the spell is plot derived. Any game crafter would [or rather should, since some really bad stuff does make it past the editing] reject this mismash out of hand. We have the given plot events and the desired events. So that is what the spell does. The result is a spell that makes no sense and would lead to terrible arguments in a game [and we have enough tendency to argue over clear rules.]
We can note here the addition of the spell affecting all within it for a very long time. Obvious plot device papered over a little.
And we have the summonsing hole. Even with the excuse it lets him slip in his piece without fuss, it is a gross hole in the system security. Any spy that makes it inside can call in an entire army. But plotwise, it gives an excuse for Celia showing up.

Celia's knowledge of the spell is also excessive. The spell operates in a way that doesn't need her knowledge for the most part. Indeed, without her specially given ability to detect such a spell, she should not even be aware of it. How is she to know epic level spellcasting can get past it? Or that there is an opening for summonsing spells?
Now as it happens, one way she should be aware of it, she apparently isn't. The spell should block her mother phoning, but it does not. We can patch here by saying Celia is phoning back in 53, but all the evidence we have says that it is Mom who does the phoning.

I get excited every time Rich puts in something that would be entirely reasonable in any fantasy novel ever written, but would totally screw up a D&D game--specifically because it drives people nuts who insist that everything in the strip be balanced for the game.

At any rate, DMs inventing a magic effect that they want and handwaving its details as, "Really Powerful Magic" is as old as D&D itself. Mythals, anyone? Or that spell active in Undermountain? Breaking the rules by DM fiat IS part of the game!

[Blink Dawg]

Wooooooo - Chicken Teriyaki! :smallamused:

[Souju]

Celia's knowledge of the spell is also excessive. The spell operates in a way that doesn't need her knowledge for the most part. Indeed, without her specially given ability to detect such a spell, she should not even be aware of it. How is she to know epic level spellcasting can get past it? Or that there is an opening for summonsing spells?
Now as it happens, one way she should be aware of it, she apparently isn't. The spell should block her mother phoning, but it does not. We can patch here by saying Celia is phoning back in 53, but all the evidence we have says that it is Mom who does the phoning.

1) Maybe Dorukan actually TOLD his employees how the spell worked when the were hired so they wouldn't curse him out later? And it's kinda implied that epic level spell beats or matches epic level spell. Similar to how +5 longsword matches +5 whatchamacallit.
2) Since when are phones magic?

[David Argall]

1) Maybe Dorukan actually TOLD his employees how the spell worked when the were hired so they wouldn't curse him out later? And it's kinda implied that epic level spell beats or matches epic level spell. Similar to how +5 longsword matches +5 whatchamacallit.
What does he really need to tell them? His prime purpose is to guard the Gate. So anything they know is something that possible attackers of the gate can learn. This is particularly the case of the summons weakness. Armed with that knowledge, they have the potential to turn very profitable treason.
Their need to know seems to be quite low.


2) Since when are phones magic?
Since they are in a society that could not have phones any other way.

[FujinAkari]

Since they are in a society that could not have phones any other way.

Clearly Cellphones, like TeeVo, are epic level items :P

[Qov]

What does he really need to tell them? His prime purpose is to guard the Gate. So anything they know is something that possible attackers of the gate can learn.
Because he's a good wizard. The forces of good believe in open and honest communication and an empowered workforce. The forces of evil leave their minions slaving ignorantly in the dark.

[Morgan Wick]

Okay, we have a new strip, but there are some points I want to touch on:

Julia doesn't live in Cliffport. She was just brought there by Nale after the kidnapping; he specifically chose that city because its laws forbid the use of magical divinations during trials.

Really? Because EVERYONE ELSE ON THE FORUMS seems to think she does. Not to mention Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html)...


:smallsigh: Per this strip, cloister wasn't working anymore. Dorukan had been captured by then...
:celia:: And then, poof! It was back. I guess Xykon found a way to master the spell himself.


Not impossible, but we have already seen them and so are almost up to date on what is happening. We have very little idea what has been happening with Team Evil, and there are a number of loose ends and questions to be answered [Such as why they are even here still? Xykon is the boss and he has been ready to leave since he took it over. One month to study local information, maybe, but what has he been doing the last 3 months? And why did he cast Cloister at all? At the first gate, he didn't want to be disturbed while he studied the gate, so maybe. But now there is no gate in Azure city. So why cast the spell?] And what is happening with O'Chul? And...
In the case of Team Evil, I wouldn't put it past Rich to keep us in the dark for as long as possible.


Eugene had "Epic Inside" and Cloister didn't make any difference for him.
Roy has Epic Inside too. Your point?


Hey, what if Cloister being cast upon people in the city is what stops Haley and Celia (and everyone else for that matter) being able to hear and see Roy?
Again, Celia wasn't in the city when Cloister was cast, and if just being in the Cloister was good enough, Roy shouldn't have been able to be contacted by Eugene. In any case, even if this was true, then unless Cloister leaves a "residue" on anyone who enters it (not just those inside when it's cast), only Celia would be able to see Roy.


Also, what if it's not Celia whos pregnant... but Haley? I would think Haley would be showing by now...


Why would that make any sense? We have had cloister explicitly spelled out to us, as far as its effects go, and paranormal communications is not part of the spell.

Everything except summoning is part of the spell. "Paranormal communications" were not specifically excluded in this strip. That doesn't necessarily mean they AREN'T excluded, and indeed either they ARE excluded or there was no Cloister in the Dungeon when the OOTS adventured in it (which makes no sense, considering why Xykon would have re-erected Cloister in the first place), but this strip doesn't specifically say they ARE.

That said, this strip does seem to debunk any theory where Roy has to magically manifest, under similar reasoning to why Cloister can't (or at least probably isn't) specifically blocking him. (Basically, if that were the case Eugene would have likely been blocked by Cloister.)


Eugene seemed to manifest through the Cloister just fine way back in #78 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0078.html) - assuming Xykon didn't figure out Cloister just afterwards.

At which point the OOTS has already met and freed Celia. We know from this strip that Celia was still on duty when Cloister went up again. If Cloister isn't there, it must be by virtue of it having ALREADY gone up and come down again.


The words "Epic Inside" are emblazoned on the scrying cloud.
Well, you could argue that's just intended to be funny. Not everything is intended to be taken 100% literally, people.



Since when are phones magic?Since they are in a society that could not have phones any other way.

It's an anachronism, in other words, so who knows - or cares - how you justify their existence.

[David Argall]

Because he's a good wizard. The forces of good believe in open and honest communication and an empowered workforce. The forces of evil leave their minions slaving ignorantly in the dark.

Does not follow. Our good [lawful] wizard knows he is looking out for their best interests and is right. Thus there is no need to tell underlings what they don't need to know. He certainly does not believe in any sort of empowered workforce. That would be chaotic.
Now our [chaotic] evil is going to leave underlings ignorant of such things as when he plans on putting a knife in their back, but he has a much wider general definition of 'need to know' since he expects his subordinate to have to face a much wider set of conditions. That means they need to know things in much more detail.




In the case of Team Evil, I wouldn't put it past Rich to keep us in the dark for as long as possible.
Not impossible, but our writer has kept everything reasonably current so far, and we got regular updates on Team Evil as they made and activated their plans for Azure City. We aren't overdue for an update yet [Team Evil appears very little between 197 & 299], but we are due. [We do know what Team Evil was doing during the 200s, dull preparation that can be shoved off stage. This time, we have no idea what plots they are making. So an update is definitely in the air.

Quote:
Eugene had "Epic Inside" and Cloister didn't make any difference for him.


Roy has Epic Inside too. Your point?
That Cloister seems to make no difference whether our spirits from beyond can or can't be seen.


Quote:
Also, what if it's not Celia whos pregnant... but Haley?


I would think Haley would be showing by now...


Haley's first "contact" with Elan was after the last known time Roy and Celia had contact. Haley is also of a more substantial build that would not show as fast. So a pregnant Haley probably would not show for at least another month.
However a more serious problem is that a pregnant Haley would be a real plot problem. Can you really see a Haley 8-9 months along charging some monster? Or even running from one? And what is she to do with the brat after the fact? Celia & Roy Jr can be stashed off camera, but Haley presents a lot more problems that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qov
The words "Epic Inside" are emblazoned on the scrying cloud.


Well, you could argue that's just intended to be funny. Not everything is intended to be taken 100% literally, people.
It's not to be taken 100% literal, but it is to be taken as meaning Cloister is not going to block it.


It's an anachronism, in other words, so who knows - or cares - how you justify their existence.
Anachronisms have to be justified [tho that can consist of "It's funny".], or accepted as story flaw. Saying something is an anachronism does not excuse its effect on a different plot point.

[Mauve Shirt]

Anachronisms have to be justified [tho that can consist of "It's funny".], or accepted as story flaw. Saying something is an anachronism does not excuse its effect on a different plot point.

The phone call is justified by "It's funny". And we don't know if Rich had thought of Cloister at that point.

[Quorothorn]

Does not follow. Our good [lawful] wizard knows he is looking out for their best interests and is right. Thus there is no need to tell underlings what they don't need to know. He certainly does not believe in any sort of empowered workforce. That would be chaotic.
Now our [chaotic] evil is going to leave underlings ignorant of such things as when he plans on putting a knife in their back, but he has a much wider general definition of 'need to know' since he expects his subordinate to have to face a much wider set of conditions. That means they need to know things in much more detail.

Not sharing information with others because the people in question "don't need to know" and because "I know what's best for them" is not Good IMO. It's Lawful/True Neutral at best. Sure, Good people can still do it (Dumbledore, to bring in an example from another 'verse), and can maybe think they're being Good in doing so, but it is definitely not "the Lawful Good thing to do" so to speak. So Dorukan telling his subordinates about Cloister is a possibility that cannot be precluded.

Heck, what evidence do we have that Dorukan is Lawful? :smallconfused: There seems to be a slight tendency for romantic pairs to have the same alignment (diametrically opposing alignments are in fact legal grounds for divorce), which would put the Wizard at Neutral Good, what with the Druidic prescription to have "Neutral" somewhere in your alignment (Lirian being a Good, presumably, Druid, she'd have to be Neutral Good). Just putting that out there.

[David Argall]

Not sharing information with others because the people in question "don't need to know" and because "I know what's best for them" is not Good IMO. It's Lawful/True Neutral at best.
True enough. The basic argument was simply that the fact someone is good does not give us any serious amount of information about how open he is with information. Our Wiz is good whether he gives out encyclopedias or nothing.

However a more serious point does come up here. The entire party bought into the idea that the rifts and gates must be kept secret. That means not telling his staff anything beyond what they had to know, and Celia has no known duties that required her to even know of the gate or the rift.

[Qov]

The basic argument was simply that the fact someone is good does not give us any serious amount of information about how open he is with information.
That is granted, but the purpose of the "it's good to empower your employees" line of reasoning was not to prove that Dorukan gave out the information, merely to demonstrate that it was plausible. Dorukan might have told Celia what to expect from the Cloister spell. There may well have been a reason pertinent to her job. Perhaps she was also required to test and monitor the efficacy of the spell in her area of the dungeon. Perhaps her employer wanted her to feel safe and well-cared for. You can see that after six months of non-contact with her late employer she had been reduced to mainly stealing office supplies and making personal phone calls. She was probably more productive and loyal when he communicated more.