Another mecha battle!

[Tengu]

As promised. This will be a group battle between Full Metal Panic's Mythril and Super Robot Wars' Team ATX. The contestants and their equipment are fairly obvious:

Mythril:
Sagara Sousuke - Arbalest
Melissa Mao - M-9
Kurz Weber - M-9 equipped with a sniper rifle

ATX:
Kyosuke Nanbu - Alteisen
Excellen Browning -Weissritter
Brooklyn "Bullet" Luckfield - Huckebein Mk2

The battle takes place in a forest, with a large lake in its center and a canyon on one of the edges. Both parties possess the maps of the battlefield, but neither has any practical experience with the place before.

We are taking two scenarios under consideration:
1. "Take it easy" battle - Sousuke will not use the Lambda Driver, team ATX will not use their super weapons (Trump Card, Oxtongue Rifle D-Mode, G-Impact Cannon).
2. All-out battle - special weapons are available, and will be used as soon as possible.

Who would win in either of those scenarios? How would the differences between them affect the combat's outcome?

[HarmlessPenguin]

Question: This is a 'Take it easy' battle so seems to be a tactical exercise between rival teams. Have the two teams met or seen each other in action before this though, or are they meeting on the field for the first time?

[Tengu]

An interesting question. Let's take the same approach as with the terrain - they possess the theoretical information about the opposing team's abilities and equipment, but have not seen them in action before.

[HarmlessPenguin]

Hm, in that case I think it would be a batman-like scenario where the Mythril team has the edge if they are allowed time to prepare and set up ambushes. So here are my thoughts based on two scenarios

Scenario 1: The Mythril team are grouped together and start in the canyon:
The Mythril team has much more extensive experience in geurilla warfare and ambushes and sets up in the canyon with overlapping arcs of fire facing the rest of the field. They use their stealth technology to give them a distinct advantage in the ambush and at long range. The ATX team on the other hand just begins a sweep of the area with Excellen being the primary scout, being the only flying unit.

Between the three of them they could easily take down either the Weis Ritter or the Huckebein MkII in the first volley assuming Bullet's psychic powers don't kick in. Most likely though, they would target the Weis Ritter that's flying above the forest anyway scouting and is lightly armored.

This would leave the Alt Eisen and Huckebein MkII to make their way slowly through either forest or the lake towards the canyon taking fire the entire time and without the G-Impact Cannon or the Weis-y they lack any significant long range threat to compare with Kurtz's sniper rifle. Kyosuke would probably take point to soak up most of the damage so that Bullet could make it to the canyon without much difficulty. Kurtz doesn't have enough ammo to take out both the Weis and the Alt. Sousuke would likely try to intercept both the Alt and the Huckebein Mk II but can't make an effective screen and even he tries he'd be losing the strengths of his machine; mobility and the stealth technology. The Huckebein at least would get by will little trouble while Kyousuke and Sousuke face off. Mao would probably remain back providing support fire. Kurtz is taken down by Bullet despite that, lacking the reflexes and skill set to face Bullet up close and is caught while prone and hiding behind cover, surprised that Bullet got past Sousuke and found him so easily. Mao and Bullet square off and their fight drags on for awhile with Mao fighting a running defensive battle and Bullet unable to quickly finish her off due to clever use of the canyon and the cloaking technology, but never loses her location because he's a psychic. Sousuke eventually takes down the badly damaged Alt though, and then turns to finish Bullet off either before he catches Mao in which it's a 2-on-1 slaughter, or just after he does so and is distracted.


Scenario 2: Action right off the bat and neither team has a chance to prepare
Kyosuke immediately goes after Sousuke while Mao chases after the Weis Ritter and Bullet begins hunting for Kurtz. Kyosuke and Sousuke's fight takes forever and ranges throughout the entire battle field. The Weis Ritter quickly out paces Mao, being able to fly over the terrain but also soon loses her location due to the stealth technology. Excellen gets to a safe location over the lake and supports Kyosuke instead with support fire. Kurtz does his best to hide using the stealth technology, but the psychic Bullet keeps on his tail. Bullet takes Kurtz down rather quickly, but not before Kurtz gets a chaff grenade off on him, taking him out of the fight temporarily as well. Mao comes up and finishes him off from behind, unable to get to Excellen easily. Mao then takes up Kurtz's sniper rifle and takes Excellen by surprise from cover. By now though, because of Excellen's interference Kyosuke's gotten the upper hand and takes Sousuke down. Kyosuke and Excellen both then turn his attention on the only remaining combatant and take down Mao without too much trouble or Excellen taking further damage due to impressive team work.

Edit: Points of information I based this off of:
For the ATX Team:
The ATX Team in general has pretty decent team work and high morale. Excellen and Kyosuke work together especially well, but all members have a habit of doing their own thing in combat as long as they make sure to cover each other. They adapt to new situations well enough, but are not used to following through with plans perfectly. They are independent and accustomed to fighting against bad odds and against both masses of enemies and particularly strong singular enemies having trained under Zonvolt. They do not, however, have any experience dealing with invisible enemies.

The Alt Eisen is not only a sturdy machine that can take lots of damage but also the most heavily armored unit on the field. It can shrug off unfocused small arms fire by the M-9's and Kyosuke's a skilled enough pilot to avoid letting his weak spots be hit. Leaving it vulnerable only to the Arbalest's arsenal, the sniper rifle, a knife, or grenades. The unit that would give the most problems for the Mythril team. It lacks any true ranged capabilities and Kyosuke does like to charge in head on against the strongest of the enemy units though so it's a blunt instrument =P.

The Weis Ritter is the only unit on the field that can fly and as such can out maneuver and run any other unit on the field due to the unfavorable terrain. Excellen can also dodge most attacks that she sees coming. It's also the only unit primarily using energy weapons so it's the only one that won't run out of ammo in a prolonged fight but would need to 'rest' and also has trouble firing into the lake. Having said that, it's also probably the weakest link in the ATX team, as Excellen has to see the attacks coming to avoid fire and the Weis-y's also the most lightly armored unit there too.

The Huckebein's also easily the equal if not better than the M-9's in offense and pure speed, though it falls a bit behind in maneuverability. It lacks a really strong long ranged attack without the G-Impact Cannon though so it's lost some versatility in this fight. It makes up for it by being piloted by Bullet, the only psychic in this fight which means he's the only one who can reliably find the Mythril team once they go aground. He couldn't quite seem to both communicate/track someone psychically and use his abilities for predicting attacks though but still a very useful ability.

For the Mythril Team:
The Mythril team has amazing team work and also high morale. They have more experience than the ATX both in general and working as a team. They are both capable of seeing a plan through to the end flawlessly and adapting to changing conditions in the battlefield including the loss of one of their members. All the weaponry they are using in this exercise is even interchangeable between units; if one unit runs out of ammo another can give them more, etc. They are, however, used to receiving significant support in both intelligence and actual military intercession as a single unit that's part of a larger group. Most of their experience has also been in fighting either infantry or against weaker Arm Slaves and have limited experience in fighting enemy units that are stronger or faster than them.

The Arbalest does not come close to its full potential without the LAMBDA drive. Even without it though, it is still the most maneuverable unit on the field and appears a bit better than the M-9's in every respect. It also has its own unique AI to help with making tactical decisions. Its weapons are not terribly impressive but just better than an M-9's to actually be a threat to the Alt Eisen. Its greatest strength lies in the fact that it's piloted by Sousuke who has a very hard time going down no matter the situation.

Mao's M-9 is probably the weakest unit on the field, lacking either the fire power of a sniper rifle or the maneuverability of the Arbalest. It's command antenna is even rendered useless in this situation as there is no one to call for intelligence or back up. It can, however, still get the job done if the conditions are right and its lack of a defined role allows Mao to fill any gaps in a strategy. The Arm Slaves also has a much stronger jump than the ATX units if it were ever to come up. Mao can also still direct and coordinate the team from it effectively.

Kurtz's M-9 represents the Mythril team's lynch pin as far as hopes for taking down team ATX goes. Its sniper rifle is their best chance of taking down the Alt and is very effective against all targets due to the stealth technology available to them and Kurtz's fantastic aim. The same rifle, however, makes it a target and Kurtz is somewhat vulnerable in melee. While Kurtz is not helpless in close quarters, he may as well be when faced with either Kyosuke or Bullet. Also, Kurtz is somewhat unreliable in that he is likely to actually purposefully miss firing at Excellen if nothing's really on the line and he knows what she looks like and hasn't talked with her yet =P.

[Rutee]

"Assuming Bullet's TK doesn't kick in"? I'm.. no, that's a pretty bad assumption, ain't it? Kyosuke and Bullet always seem to predict ambushes. THe main problems I see with your assessment, Harmless, are as follows:

1. Weissy Scouting. Unlikely, in these circumstances. Excellen is very much a sniper (Her skill as one, compared to Kurz, is debatable, but she /is/ one), and it behooves her to remain far back. Further, I'm not clear if the Uruz team has fought flying enemies that move as quickly as the Weisritter.

2. You're assuming that 2 walking Spider Senses are going to be ambushed. Kyosuke and Bullet aren't exactly easy to catch properly off guard.

The main problem I see with option 1. is that I don't think anyone besides Kurz can really damage the Alt at all without use of Lambda Driver. It.. kind of shrugs off normal weapons without even trying, whereas if Alt actually managed to get into melee with them, it's liable to mangle them utterly. Further, this simply isn't going to be something the Uruz team can account for, because if they receive anything less then an accurate portrayal of the ATX team, they don't have a frame of reference for what Kyosuke's abilities are in melee (And why should they? They're a quasi-realistic Real Robot anime. If they heard about someone exclusively relying on melee without something like the Lambda Driver, they'd think he was nuts). Assuming a Batman is also giving extra preparation to Uruz team... but the ATX team wouldn't signiciantly benefit from it, I expect.

One thing I'll say, barring his anti-ambush capabilities, I don't think Bullet is that much of an issue in option 1. The Huckebein Mk. II's only defined weapon is the G-Impact Cannon. What armaments will Bullet have on his mecha? I'm assuming the Alt and Weissy have Fixed Weapons only, but that leaves Bullet effectively naked. I will posit that he has a Photon Rifle (I'm pretty sure he comes with one) and a Chakram Caster, as well as the useless gatling gun and the G-Impact.

The biggest problem I see for the Uruz team are that the only target they can really damage in Option 1 is the Weissritter. Between the Huckebein's Gravicon system and the Alteisen being almost as tanky as Mazinger, I don't think the Uruz team has high-caliber enough weapons to really damage Alt effectively, or quickly destroy the Huckebein Mk. II. If Weissy is significantly quicker then what they're used to (And I'd be less then surprised if OG characters were literally dodging bullets, rather then dodging the aim of the shooter), they might be screwed. Mercifully, however, the Uruz team isn't using Beam-based weaponry. IF it were like Mobile Suit Gundam, where all their rifles are beam weapons, I'm afraid I'd ahve to write them off outright, with Alt and Weissy's anti-beam coatings.

Now, on that note, the ECS is DEFINITELY news to the ATX team, so they've both got stuff they're not aware of, and unused to. It might be possible to disable the Weisritter or perhaps even the Huckebein (Weissy's a better target, IMO; It fights better on the Uruz team's terms.) Can someone enlighten me on the top caliber weapons the Uruz team uses in canon? I recall them having some sort of big rifle from SRWJ...

In Option 2, I'm afraid I must unequivocally give it to the ATX Team. The Lambda Driver isn't nearly so scary as the crap the Einst, Zuvorg, or Shu can pull, and the other two are getting to go all out.

Also, I'm glad you didn't include Sanger in the ATX team; He'd just shout CHESTO!, destroy the forest with the first swing, then cleave the (non-evil) ASes on the next..

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, I know half the characters in this one...guess I'll comment.

Anyway, regarding ambush, Team ATX is one of those sets of protagonists that knows it's a trap, acknowledges it, and goes in anyway. I agree that Excellen scouting is a rather dumb idea; more likely, they'd just move through the forest in a group and try to have Kyosuke spring the trap.

Now, Alteisen isn't quite as invincible as Rutee has said (that's what Giganscudo is for. That's all Giganscudo is for.) but it's still pretty tough and surprisingly dodgy for such a big heavy machine. It can likely stand up to the sniper fire, and will attempt to protect the Weissy and Huckebein as best as possible. Once the enemy position is known, Excellen can start sniping and Alt can rush in and mess crap up with the Heavy Claymore.

Penguin's 1) is iffy, but my money's on ATX, especially if they have access to all their stuff. What kind of weaponry is the Huckebein equipped with? The Alt and the Weiss also have room for custom weapons, but with their built-in stuff, it doesn't matter quite so much. Especially if we're not in an SRW game and don't have to worry about the ever-important (P).
Penguin's 2) ATX. When Kyosuke and Excellen are at point-blank range, people die. They die even faster if they can do their "Love Love Attack". and Bullet can support with his gravity gun.

Note that all this is based on having played 2/3 of Super Robot Wars OG, and nothing else. I should probably watch FMP, but I've got a pretty big TV queue right now.

[Rutee]

Now, Alteisen isn't quite as invincible as Rutee has said (that's what Giganscudo is for. That's all Giganscudo is for.) but it's still pretty tough and surprisingly dodgy for such a big heavy machine. It can likely stand up to the sniper fire, and will attempt to protect the Weissy and Huckebein as best as possible. Once the enemy position is known, Excellen can start sniping and Alt can rush in and mess crap up with the Heavy Claymore.

You're in OG1, where it /is/ that invincible! Cap its armor and it won't take damage from anything beneath a boss for 2/3rds of the game. And bosses can't scratch it for half of the game (Except Sanger, but Sanger can cleave anything). And since most end game peons rely on Beam Weapons.. honestly, if Alt is taking more then negligible damage, and you're past the DC, you're doing it wrong :P

Ganduro just also negates boss hits >.>

Quite serious about wanting the higher caliber weapons from FMP though. I really hope it's the.. I think they were called Anti-AS Cannons or some such in J?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh, the armor's fine. Just not on the level of some of the bigger (non-Beam Coated) bots. I do think I forgot to max it out, though...anyway, it's still probably the toughest mech here by a fair margin.

[Rutee]

If Alt is tougher then the Lambda Driver-ing Arbalest (I'm genuinely unsure, but to put it this way, using non-Canon.. Alteisen ~= Grungust T3 > Combattler V > Arbalest with Lambda Driver), wouldn't that make it possible to virtually solo Uruz Squad? Again, I'm not sure if later on they develop weapons that can damage a Lambda-driver-ing Arbalest, but if they haven't, and Alt is tankier, well..

I recognize that this further bit is non-canon, but Sousuke seems to rely on blind spots and weak points in armor, within SRW games, to effectively combat Super-Robot class enemies without use of the Lambda Driver, a habit that tends to be noticed by people like the Cambel Empire's prince, or the Fury Knights, because his weapons flatly lack the capability to damage them on their own. Main weakness here is that Alt is small; Taking advantage of such things is going to be much harder when on the same scale.

...I wonder if Uruz Squad is better off without the mecha...

This is certainly an interesting matchup, because it's two very, very different approaches to fighting, with the mecha and media in question.

[tyckspoon]

...I wonder if Uruz Squad is better off without the mecha...


Probably. They're also trained in non-armored soldiering, and I don't believe there is any evidence that the ATX group bothers with that kind of thing. It should be a lot easier to snipe or blow up the ATX team when they're not riding giant armor mechs. Still not a cakewalk- Kyosuke's still absurdly lucky, Bullet's still psychic, and they've both trained under some of the best fighters the Original Generations cast has to offer- but I think when you take them out of the suits Mythril's superior training in anti-personnel combat will beat ATX's individual talents. It also helps that the ATX group doesn't appear to practice with guns very much and that (IMO) Excellen wouldn't be much help without riding Weissy.

[Rutee]

Bullet might still be a threat if everyone was out of their mecha (Granted that Rishu != Bullet, but the guy did take out Bioroids with a sword), but I don't think Kyosuke would be. Excellen would still be quite a threat; The important part of sniping, IIRC, is having very, very, very calm hands; I don't think that's going to change much just because it's a mecha's (Think about it; You need to have absurdly fine control, given the distance. The muscle memory would be different, but the steady hands 'shouldn't' be.)

What I meant was that "I wonder if Uruz Team could combat the ATX Team's PTs more effectively if they weren't in mecha", and I was being quite serious.

[SAMAS]

You're in OG1, where it /is/ that invincible! Cap its armor and it won't take damage from anything beneath a boss for 2/3rds of the game. And bosses can't scratch it for half of the game (Except Sanger, but Sanger can cleave anything). And since most end game peons rely on Beam Weapons.. honestly, if Alt is taking more then negligible damage, and you're past the DC, you're doing it wrong :P

Ganduro just also negates boss hits >.>

Quite serious about wanting the higher caliber weapons from FMP though. I really hope it's the.. I think they were called Anti-AS Cannons or some such in J?

Well, the only one I've seen so far in searching is a 165mm howitzer used in Sosuke's next mecha. And a 276mm smoothbore cannon.

[Eldan]

Hmm. I only know Full metal panic, but they have to win. Why? Because the enemy mechs have the most stupid names ever. And I have seen a lot of anime. Annoying.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Huckebein I'll give you, but what's so stupid about Alteisen or Weissritter?

[Cubey]

Actually, Huckebein is an actual German historical name, so calling that stupid is like saying Abrams MBTs have a stupid name. He probably means that Alteisen and Weissritter aren't written in German, but Germanesque. It should be Altes Eisen (Old Iron) and Weisses Ritter (White Knight). I call it nitpicking, because as far as coolness factor is concerned instead of actual military value, Alteisen takes on the whole Uruz team. Add in any mecha Sanger pilots and they take on the world. Actually, add in any mecha Sanger pilots and they take on the world the normal way too.

[SAMAS]

Hmm. I only know Full metal panic, but they have to win. Why? Because the enemy mechs have the most stupid names ever. And I have seen a lot of anime. Annoying.

Alt Eisen: German for "Old Iron"

Weiss Ritter: German for "White Knight"

Arbalest: French name for a type of crossbow.

Gernsback: Named for a Luxemborgian Sci-Fi writer.

Yep, that's some superior naming there. :smallbiggrin:

And if you haven't seen SRW: Alt and Weiss in action (OGs) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99eNf8GrF7Q)

[Nerd-o-rama]

Meh. Japanese writers tend to fail at foreign grammar (not that Japanese grammar is easy either). I see no need to nitpick it apart, especially on proper nouns that don't necessarily need to be grammatical.

And yee Rampage Ghost. Man that's fun to watch.

[Tengu]

Huckebein's weapons - indeed, I meant the weapons he start with - G-Impact Rifle, Photon Rifle, Chakram Caster and some useless crap you do not use unless he runs out of ammo for those anyway. Sorry for initially forgetting that part.


Add in any mecha Sanger pilots and they take on the world. Actually, add in any mecha Sanger pilots and they take on the world the normal way too.

Especially if he teams up with Elzam:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iF-FMW4pQv4
Yeah, that's a link everyone who played SRW probably saw coming.

I wanted to find the technical details about FMP's mecha, but they are surprisingly hard to find. However, it is not much of a stretch to say that in both verses, pilot skills matter more than mecha stats - in FMP, Sagara easily broke through vastly outnumbering forces while using a Savage, in SRW Kai in a Gespy rocks more socks than Giado or Garnet in a Valsion.

As for out of mecha battle - here, I think, Mithril has a vast advantage, seeing that their mech pilots are well trained in personal combat too, which cannot be said about SRW pilots - EFA's elite forces include, among others, a 14-year old girl, a video game champion, a (initially) coward whose three faces are "gonna cry now", "definitely gonna cry now" and " too much stress resulting in unstoppable Shinji-style rage", a clumsy guy with the stamina of a wet noodle, and the ship's nurse - it's not a stretch to assume that soldiers trained in actual personal combat are very rare among EFA mech forces.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To be fair, their early-game enemies hired an evil video game champion.

And Sanger easily makes up for any stupid hiring decisions they may have made.

[Tengu]

Oh, these decisions are not stupid - all these people are brilliant mecha pilots. They just would be completely hopeless in a normal battle.

[Rutee]

Well, the only one I've seen so far in searching is a 165mm howitzer used in Sosuke's next mecha. And a 276mm smoothbore cannon.

I should have been more specific, because I don't know how those compare to his regular rifle.

As to pilot skills, I went back to the mecha immediately because I believe they're /roughly/ evenly matched.

As to out of mecha battle, I genuinely don't know why there's consistent misunderstanding; I genuinely am asking whether Uruz Squad is more likely to disable the ATX teams' mecha without riding their own.


SRW Kai in a Gespy rocks more socks than Giado or Garnet in a Valsion.
Not Kai in a normal Gespy. Kai's Gespy is heavily customized, in OG1, which DOES let him compete; In a normal, unbuffed Gespy.. (Seriously, he finally got his own personal mecha... ...A customized gespenst. Though to be fair, Alt and Weissy start off in the same way..)

As to stupid hiring decisions, they beat seasoned soldiers who oftentimes use superior mecha.
Also, the 14 year old girl is so heavily modified physically that she's probably stronger then most men :P

Edit: Tengu, my name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my hope in your sanity. Prepare to die.

[Tengu]

As to out of mecha battle, I genuinely don't know why there's consistent misunderstanding; I genuinely am asking whether Uruz Squad is more likely to disable the ATX teams' mecha without riding their own.


I honestly don't see any way how would they be able to do that - especially in Weissy's case, who can fly.



Not Kai in a normal Gespy. Kai's Gespy is heavily customized, in OG1, which DOES let him compete; In a normal, unbuffed Gespy.. (Seriously, he finally got his own personal mecha... ...A customized gespenst. Though to be fair, Alt and Weissy start off in the same way..)


While that is true, his upgraded Gespenst is still a vastly inferior machine to a Valsion.



Also, the 14 year old girl is so heavily modified physically that she's probably stronger then most men :P


Oops, right, I forgot that children from the School are so pumped with steroids that they can probably juggle horses. Would you believe me if I said that I meant princess Shine?



Edit: Tengu, my name is Indigo Montoya. You killed my hope in your sanity. Prepare to die.

I'm glad I didn't put that "feel free to put this banner in your sig if you feel the same way" note, then (written in a porposedly bad font of course, like the rest). Not that it will stop those who see the one and true way.

[Rutee]

The correct shipping answer is Talya x Rutee, really. I'm still going to have to kill you, unfortunately. It's a pity, you were amusing.

I disavow any knowledge of the incoming attack by Giant Robots on Poland, and am certainly sure that Poland won't be wiped off the map in the distant future. Totally unrelated note.

Here's my thing; I don't think I can buy anyone besides Sousuke having a clear skill advantage. And even if they did, It'd be closer to Kai in Gespenst to Rio in Valsion, to use your analogy; It's pretty clear that OG2 characters aren't schlubs. And I'm not sure how superlative Sousuke would be compared to them (He is roughly comparable to the Boosted Children with a few years on them, and they're not exactly infinitely more skilled then their colleagues..)


Oops, right, I forgot that children from the School are so pumped in steroids that they can probably juggle horses. Would you believe me if I said that I meant princess Shine?
It's funny because despite having the worst stats of OG2 PCs, Shine is /still/ a superior pilot to most living beings a with a face (But not to Bioroids or W-series)! Well, no, I don't think she actually pilots her Gothlolion.. pretty sure she predicts attacks, and Latooni pilots for them both..

[Tengu]

Here's my thing; I don't think I can buy anyone besides Sousuke having a clear skill advantage. And even if they did, It'd be closer to Kai in Gespenst to Rio in Valsion, to use your analogy; It's pretty clear that OG2 characters aren't schlubs. And I'm not sure how superlative Sousuke would be compared to them (He is roughly comparable to the Boosted Children with a few years on them, and they're not exactly infinitely more skilled then their colleagues..)


The point I was making with this analogy is that piloting skills matter a lot when it comes to damage potential, thus Mithril would be able to deal damage to ATX, even despite possessing inferior weaponry. Especially if we use the OG2 mechanics, where autocannons stop being crap that rarely deals more than 10 damage (they are still crap, but actually become noticable) - and I think that the ordinary rifle M-9 units use is roughly the comparison of a M-95 machine gun.


The correct shipping answer is Talya x Rutee, really. I'm still going to have to kill you, unfortunately. It's a pity, you were amusing.


Fortunately, I live in Poland - if you come here, you will freeze to death.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Can I comment on a military situation in Poland without ending the thread and losing? No? Okay then.

[Tengu]

Eh, go on. Our whole military could be defeated by a single US marine armed with a bowie knife and a cardboard box. But he'd have to be trained not to freeze to death in those temperatures first - how many states actually have snow in winter?

[AslanCross]

Does Bullet have the Shishio Blade equipped on the Huckebein Mk II? That could still make up for the lack of the mighty G-Impact Cannon.

Both sides have very skilled pilots, though Kyousuke has the reputation for being the luckiest man alive.

I'd like to note the size disparity. SRWOG mecha are on the bigger side. Even the smallest mass production units are over 20 meters tall. The three Personal Troopers here are no exception. Armored Slaves are about a third of that, as far as I can remember. While mecha anime in general tells us that size doesn't really matter, (Diebuster, for example), the biggest guns that armored slaves can carry is nowhere near the AltEisen's revolving stake. In the end the battle might depend entirely on preparation.

1. Alteisen is designed to smash through enemy lines on its own. The only weapon it has that might not instantly destroy an armored slave is the triple machine cannon mounted on its left arm. A direct hit from the heat horn or the revolving stake would crumple an AS like a beer can. Let's not even mention the Claymore. (To those who are not familiar with SRW, the Claymore is a reference to the Claymore mine, not the sword. It's a shoulder-mounted spray of titanium bearings.) Its drawbacks: It's quick, but not maneuverable, and it's a big target.

Pilot: Kyousuke Nanbu. Grim veteran risk-taker, not to mention the luckiest man alive. (That's why the Einst wanted him to be their new "Adam.")

2. Weissritter can fly. Its primary weapon is an integrated beam rifle/solid-round cannon, known as the Oxtongue Launcher. That's about the only weapon Excellen uses in it, although it has a plasma cutter stored away somewhere. The range on the launcher is incredible, and it should fire at least as far as the M9's sniper rifle. Drawback: Weissritter is flimsy, but that's about it. It's been shown to fly very well in the anime.

Pilot: Excellen Browning isn't really known for being a sniper like Kurz is, but she excels in all-around ranged combat. She's also impossible to demoralize, being permanently high.

3. Huckebein Mk II has a gravity wall barrier. Although it's not as tough as Alteisen and not as maneuverable as Weissritter, it's been shown to hold its own. The T-Link System interfaces with the pilot's psychic abilities, giving it an edge in maneuverability. Its weapons are generic: vulcans, a plasma cutter, a photon rifle, and the chakram shooter. Their sheer size still makes them very devastating against the M9s on a hit. If it's equipped with the Shishio blade, we've got two deadly melee mechs and one sniper. I'm iffy on the Photon Rifle. It's inconsistently portrayed in the games and in the anime. It's been shown to fire one large shot, or shots in rapid succession, or a continuous spray.

Pilot: Bullet only really excelled in SRW Alpha, to be honest. It was his (rather, Kusuha's) game, anyway. He isn't uber, but his melee training should at least make him a threat in the Huckebein Mk II. He also isn't the best Psychodriver around, but he's still got it. Better than nothing. In terms of attitude, he's on the more rash side, but not really prone to fits of stupidity (unlike Katina <_<).

1. Arbalest's size makes it difficult to hit. Without using the Lambda Driver, it still has the advantage in stealth. The best weapon it can use is its shotgun, which may be able to deal reasonable damage to the Weissritter or the Huckebein.

Pilot: Sousuke Sagara. His only weakness is his inability to live normally. He's normally very composed, and he's not likely to choke up even against Kyousuke.

2. M9 - The ECS gives it a stealth edge. However, its largest anti-materiel rifle will probably be its only effective weapon against the Personal Troopers.

Pilot: Melissa Mao. To be fair, let's not get her drunk. She's been known to make bad calls (like when Tessa beat her in that mock battle), but she's still good as a pilot.

3. M9 w/ sniper rifle. Again, the ECS gives it stealth. Stealth combined with superior range and accuracy will give Kurz a good chance to take out one of the Personal troopers if he goes for a disabling head or knee shot. This is only likely to work on the Weissritter. I'm not sure if the Huckebein's gravity wall is on at all times, or is only manually/automatically activated when a hit is incoming. Kurz just might be able to take out Bullet.

Pilot: Kurz is also a genius soldier, but works best with a sniper rifle. I don't even want to think about how he'll hit on Excellen outside of combat.


The forest terrain is advantageous to the smaller, stealthier ASs. They can move around relatively undetected and set up ambushes. The PTs are too big to move around properly in forest terrain, and might have to resort to using their melee weapons to cut down trees. This reveals their position. However, Weissritter can fly (and it usually does), giving ATX a bird's eye view, albeit one most likely obscured by the terrain.

Team Uruz has to set up an ambush to have any hope of taking down ATX, but even then there's no guarantee that their weapons will have any hope of doing fatal damage to Alteisen or even hitting the Weissritter. There's a good chance of them winning if they do manage to separate the three PTs, though. However, both teams are known for sticking together. (Except probably Bullet. Excellen definitely wouldn't let Kyousuke go alone despite him ignoring her.)

In the no-holds barred fight, the Lambda Driver is the only thing the M9s have going for them. Wouldn't the G-Impact Cannon and Rampage Ghost (http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lvms6MUO47Y&feature=related) be overkill on an AS?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Eh, go on. Our whole military could be defeated by a single US marine armed with a bowie knife and a cardboard box. But he'd have to be trained not to freeze to death in those temperatures first - how many states actually have snow in winter?
Oh, plenty. The northeast quarter of the country is known for getting buried under snowstorms every winter, and we've got plenty of mountains to ski on. And if that's not enough, there's always Alaska. Our badass special forces with knives and cardboard boxes have a penchant for retiring there, according to fiction.

You guys still using horse cavalry?

[Tengu]

They are elite forces that can take tanks down, you know.

Also, I never recall Snake using a knife.

[Rutee]

The point I was making with this analogy is that piloting skills matter a lot when it comes to damage potential, thus Mithril would be able to deal damage to ATX, even despite possessing inferior weaponry. Especially if we use the OG2 mechanics, where autocannons stop being crap that rarely deals more than 10 damage (they are still crap, but actually become noticable) - and I think that the ordinary rifle M-9 units use is roughly the comparison of a M-95 machine gun.
Well.. I was going off SRW /commentary/. Specifically, and this is especially true with Sousuke, bosses (and the FMP cast) comment that the /only/ reason Sousuke can meaningfully damage the huge, hulking tanks is because he has a teeny tiny AS, so he can strike weak points in the armor that almost none of the other mecha can realistically target. It doesn't actually affect his damage output (He has no problems, mechanically, smacking, say, Tekkamen around, and they're man-sized), and it's non-canon, but it's the logic I've been using. Aslan, mercifully, named the cannons I couldn't recall, My only commentary on Aslan's (likely accurate) notes, is that firstly, I'm not sure they'd have to actually cut trees down; Alt should be able to barrel on through with no problems (Relevant because it's faster, but reveals position just as well) with the other two following behind it.


Fortunately, I live in Poland - if you come here, you will freeze to death.

This is true, but I'll survive.


Also, I never recall Snake using a knife.
Would he really need it?


Pilot: Excellen Browning isn't really known for being a sniper like Kurz is, but she excels in all-around ranged combat. She's also impossible to demoralize, being permanently high.
Bottle Fairies are fun!

[AslanCross]

My only commentary on Aslan's (likely accurate) notes, is that firstly, I'm not sure they'd have to actually cut trees down; Alt should be able to barrel on through with no problems (Relevant because it's faster, but reveals position just as well) with the other two following behind it.

Well, Weiss would most likely fly low over the trees. Flight's too much of an advantage to give up in this case, but she'd definitely give away their position.

It would really depend on how dense the forest is. The SRW anime rarely (if ever) show any combat in forest terrain. In all the games, however, forest terrain drastically reduces the movement of any non-flyers.

Taken from the Original Generation artbooks:
Alteisen: 22.2 meters
Weissritter: 21.7 meters
Huckebein Mk II: 20.8 meters

If the forest were anything at all like the rainforests we have here, they'd definitely be obstructed.



Bottle Fairies are fun!
They most definitely are. In fact, I'd likely enjoy envisioning what kind of dialogue would go on after this battle when Kurz meets Excellen.

[Fri]

Guys. Even both of the team are piloting the so called 'real' robots, it's a different breed of real robots.

SRW happened almost two hundred years after mankind colonized space. Mankind had reached pluto and had permanent colony in jupiter. With some guesswork from characters talking, it's around the 23rd century. They treat beam weapons as normal armament. Their robot must stand space travel, beam weapons, and such. Even their normal, so called 'useless' built in gatling gun would be as strong, if not stronger, as Urzu team's machine gun.

FMP is just... alternate near future. 21st century.

The technological difference would be so great, that the Urzu team wouldn't stand a chance.

Of course, that's ignoring the game. Where Bonta kun can defeat Providence Gundam.

[Nerd-o-rama]

They are elite forces that can take tanks down, you know.

Also, I never recall Snake using a knife.
I never recall anyone else using a cardboard box.

Except Snake's pops, who used both, but never retired to Alaska to my knowledge. And Raiden, but no knife and no one likes him.

[Tengu]

That's because you made the mistake of assuming that the marine in question will use the box for hiding.

And to actually get the topic back on tracks, I think that people here are selling the Lambda Driver a bit too cheap - I actually think that it'd be able to give Sagara and Arbalest a huge advantage, as it's already been seen to possess an enormous offensive capability, and impenetrable by any weapons not used by a mech whose pilot can use it more effectively. Is there any proof on what are Lambda Driver's properties against beam weapons?

[Rutee]

I apologize, but the Lambda Driver seems a bit weak in the face of the Granzon's Lawlzshield, which they penetrate just fine. I'm genuinely not convinced it's even superior to the Gravity Territory ability that larger mecha with a Gravicon Controller can manifest. If I appear to be underselling it, well..

[SAMAS]

As for out of mecha battle - here, I think, Mithril has a vast advantage, seeing that their mech pilots are well trained in personal combat too, which cannot be said about SRW pilots - EFA's elite forces include, among others, a 14-year old girl, a video game champion, a (initially) coward whose three faces are "gonna cry now", "definitely gonna cry now" and " too much stress resulting in unstoppable Shinji-style rage", a clumsy guy with the stamina of a wet noodle, and the ship's nurse - it's not a stretch to assume that soldiers trained in actual personal combat are very rare among EFA mech forces.

Right, but none of them are in this fight, correct?

In fact, one of the members of this fight trains under a guy who blocks submachinegun fire with a sword.

[SAMAS]

Guys. Even both of the team are piloting the so called 'real' robots, it's a different breed of real robots.

SRW happened almost two hundred years after mankind colonized space. Mankind had reached pluto and had permanent colony in jupiter. With some guesswork from characters talking, it's around the 23rd century. They treat beam weapons as normal armament. Their robot must stand space travel, beam weapons, and such. Even their normal, so called 'useless' built in gatling gun would be as strong, if not stronger, as Urzu team's machine gun.

FMP is just... alternate near future. 21st century.

The technological difference would be so great, that the Urzu team wouldn't stand a chance.

Actually, they also specifically say that technological advancement has been held back a fair bit by two meteror impacts (One of which turned Manhattan into a smoking crater), so the disparity isn't quite as bad as it would have been.

[SAMAS]

Double post, I knew it.

[AslanCross]

You can actually delete your own posts with the edit function. Just click the "Delete this message" radio button.

Anyway, technology in SRW only really started picking up when EOT came into the picture. The Gespenst was for a long time the only mech that was in use. The Divine Crusader mecha all feature the use of EOT (such as the Tesla Drive, among others), which is why they're way way more advanced than the typical EF mecha. They're all recent arrivals. At the start of the DC War (OG continuity), the Feds were only beginning to experiment on flight through variable geometry mecha (Wildraubtier). DC's Lions could already fly on their own power, but that only came as a result of the EOT material that DC got out of Meteor 3.

[EvilElitest]

Shakesphere invaded Poland:smallwink:

Anyone get the reference, anyone?

And Rutee, why Talya?


For the record, all hope for the future is lost
from
EE

[Rutee]

You can actually delete your own posts with the edit function. Just click the "Delete this message" radio button.

Anyway, technology in SRW only really started picking up when EOT came into the picture. The Gespenst was for a long time the only mech that was in use. The Divine Crusader mecha all feature the use of EOT (such as the Tesla Drive, among others), which is why they're way way more advanced than the typical EF mecha. They're all recent arrivals. At the start of the DC War (OG continuity), the Feds were only beginning to experiment on flight through variable geometry mecha (Wildraubtier). DC's Lions could already fly on their own power, but that only came as a result of the EOT material that DC got out of Meteor 3.

A quick note to clarify, almost all mecha that fly under their own power do so with the aid of a Tesla Drive. Wildraubtier and the R-1 do without, because they transform into fighters. This doesn't change that humans have since expanded and improved on Tesla Drives (Such as the Boost Drive found in the Astelion, Wildwurger, and Wildfalken). Extraterrestrial pushstarts did contribute to humanity's technology improving, but the fact is, it /did/.

[Tengu]

*blows dust from the thread*


I apologize, but the Lambda Driver seems a bit weak in the face of the Granzon's Lawlzshield, which they penetrate just fine. I'm genuinely not convinced it's even superior to the Gravity Territory ability that larger mecha with a Gravicon Controller can manifest. If I appear to be underselling it, well..

I haven't seen the anime or played the games that actually include the mecha from FMP, but isn't there a huge difference between these forcefields and Lambda Driver? And by this difference, I mean that the SRW fields can only be used to defend against the impact of enemy blows, while Lambda Driver can also be used for offense. It also does not seem to be limited by the AS's power, just the sheer will of the user alone - while the forcefields in SRW always stop working when the mech runs out of energy.

By the way, I'm playing the devil's advocate here - I think that in both scenarios team ATX would probably win in the end.

[AslanCross]

*blows dust from the thread*



I haven't seen the anime or played the games that actually include the mecha from FMP, but isn't there a huge difference between these forcefields and Lambda Driver? And by this difference, I mean that the SRW fields can only be used to defend against the impact of enemy blows, while Lambda Driver can also be used for offense. It also does not seem to be limited by the AS's power, just the sheer will of the user alone - while the forcefields in SRW always stop working when the mech runs out of energy.

By the way, I'm playing the devil's advocate here - I think that in both scenarios team ATX would probably win in the end.

Well, in terms of game mechanics, the Lambda Driver in SRW also boosts attack power and other stats apart from giving a barrier. I love how the Arbalest gets its uber knife attack when the LD is on. It's still the same knife, except it has cool explosions and looks a lot better than the shotgun, despite the shotgun actually being more powerful.

And yes, as far as I can tell, the Lambda Driver draws its power from the pilot's force of will, so it's sort of like the AT field, just not powered by angst and self-pity.