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View Full Version : Familiars are useless?



Idea Man
2008-02-22, 05:56 PM
Familiars are seen as a huge handicap for wizards and sorcerers. What few perks they grant are outweighed by the huge XP penalty taken if it dies. Even all the feats for enhancing or upgrading familiars (personally, I love the feat that let's your familiar take over concentration of a spell) and the spells made specifically for them do nothing to alleviate the horror of 200 XP per level down the tubes, save for half.

Is it really such a great risk? I've always been of the opinion that killing a familiar was just as socially unacceptable (and unlikely) as destroying a spellbook. The rules are set up so that you can treat your familiar as a piece of equipment, and it rides around on your shoulder/pocket/backpack, with all the concurrent problems of targeting a piece of equipment. Also, the only time your familiar is likely to be out of sight is if you ask it to go scouting. If you send an owl or a rat to the goblins without protective spells, you're just being stupid or lazy.

Familiars are supposed to be an iconic pet for arcane casters, with a few useful features. If the XP penalty is so unfair, why not reduce, or even remove, it? There should still be some mechanic for the penalty of losing a familiar, possibly a combat-related or spells-available mechanic, but we shouldn't give up on them because it's to big a risk.

Anybody else still make their casters with familiars? Any ideas or recommendations on making familiars practical?

NEO|Phyte
2008-02-22, 05:58 PM
I seem to recall a similar thread ages ago, and my answer now is the same as it was then.

If you do nothing else, give them the equivalent of the Psicrystal's Channel Power.

Channel Power (Sp)

If the owner is 15th level or higher, he can manifest powers through the psicrystal to a distance of up to 1 mile. The psicrystal is treated as the power’s originator, and all ranges are calculated from its location.

When channeling a power through his psicrystal, the owner manifests the power by paying its power point cost. He is still subject to attacks of opportunity and other hazards of manifesting a power, if applicable (for instance, he becomes visible when manifesting an offensive power if invisible, as does the psicrystal).

Chronos
2008-02-22, 06:03 PM
...the horror of 200 XP per level down the tubes, save for half.That's nothing. Even at 20th level, in the worst case scenario, that's 4000 XP. You can burn more than that casting a single spell. The real penalty to losing your familiar is that you then can't summon a new one for another year, which is a long time to go without.

Zincorium
2008-02-22, 06:10 PM
Oddly, familiars are best for Gish builds and Duskblades who take a feat to get one. Improved familiar gives it even more of an edge.

The reason is that the familiar's hit points and attacks are based on the character's, and thus a gish's improved familiar can actually be better than a druid's animal companion. Just something to think about.

Toliudar
2008-02-22, 06:11 PM
Once you've got decent spells to share WITH your familiar, they go from being flavourful and moderately useful to a whole lot of fun. Plus, with a raven or improved familiar, you can start handing them scrolls, wands, etc to work with, if you've started to work with UMD. Actions, as is so often said here, are the most precious commodity in the game. Something that gives you another creature with a whole other set of action options...I find valuable.

Having said that, if a familiar is antithetical to a wizard or sorcerer's concept, I'll bin it in a heartbeat.

Saph
2008-02-22, 06:19 PM
A familiar is basically a second character under your control. Even if their potential actions are limited, that's still valuable. Add in stuff like Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, and you've doubled your actions in combat. Not exactly weak.

My favourite option for higher-level familiars is the Dragon Familiar feat from the Draconomicon. Pick a silver or a gold and it can polymorph, too!

I often go without familiars for my characters, but it's because I don't want to do the bookkeeping, not because I want to be more powerful.

- Saph

LibraryOgre
2008-02-22, 06:29 PM
In our D&D game, we've declared our wizard's familiar to be the party wizard. He survives better, and he does more damage (due to the wand of magic missiles).

kentma57
2008-02-22, 06:48 PM
I talked my DM into letting my farmiliar to be Awakened and my Cohort...

Townopolis
2008-02-22, 06:49 PM
I love familiars, for the reason stated above that it's basically a second character. I tend to value them more as additional roleplay potential, but, again as mentioned, there are plenty of ways to make them very useful.

[edit]

I talked my DM into letting my farmiliar to be Awakened and my Cohort...
Doesn't awakening just give them an Int score above 2? because familiars already have that. I think by level 10 or so they have 10-11 intelligence already.

Cruiser1
2008-02-22, 07:52 PM
Familiars are most definitely not useless. They're incredibly powerful for a caster, and even cheesily unbalanced when fully taken advantage of.

Being able to share targeted spells with your familiar so they affect both of you, allows you to double the effects of certain spells. Being able to cast spells with a target of "you" on your familiar instead of yourself allows many powerful combos.

For example, cast Antimagic Field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) on your familiar, and have him run over to the enemy spellcaster. You're still just as powerful but now the enemy is no better than a commoner! Familiars also allow you to have two Contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm) spells active at the same time. Just cast it twice, once on you and once on your familiar.

To keep your familiar alive, cast Familar Pocket (SC), and you can move your familiar into and out of an extradimensional space as a free action. That way your familiar is always safe, and can pop out, cast a spell or use a magic item, and pop back into your pocket, all within your turn.

Even if you don't take advantage of the free actions a familiar gives you, a familiar is still very useful even if you keep it hidden away all the time. A familiar is two free feats! Alertness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#alertness) may not seem like much, but remember Spot and Listen checks are perhaps the most common skills that DM's actually have rolled in the game. The familiar's specific bonus is even better. A Rat is like having the Great Fortitude (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#greatFortitude) feat, and a Weasel is like having Lightning Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#lightningReflexes).

Spellcasting "wins D&D". A familiar allows you to cast 7 spells in a row at level 11. When it's your turn do:

1: Cast spell as standard action
2: Cast quckened spell as swift action
3: Say something as a free action to trigger your Contingency spell
4: Familar casts spell as standard action (given via Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability spell)
5: Familiar casts some spell with a casting time of swift or immediate action
6: Say something as a free action to trigger familiar's Contingency spell
7: End of your turn. Interrupt next person's turn in the initiative order right away to cast Celerity followed by another standard action spell.

Rutee
2008-02-22, 07:57 PM
Strange question, but hwere is the "Familiars get UMD" bit coming from?

Collin152
2008-02-22, 07:58 PM
THat my friend is Jumbo/Large. Novalicious. Assuming the enemy survives long enough, what next? You've used up both contingencies and a lot of spell slots (Imbue holds your slots until used, right?)

NecroRebel
2008-02-22, 08:25 PM
Strange question, but hwere is the "Familiars get UMD" bit coming from?

Familiars use the master's skill ranks if they're higher than the familiar's own. Wizard spends skill points maxing out UMD cross-class. Wizard's familiar can now UMD.

Sorcerors and other classes generally don't do this, but Wizards tend to have high enough INT to have skill points to spare, particularly since they, strictly speaking, only need to max out Concentration and Spellcraft. Optimized Wizards will have between 6 and 9 skill points per level before level up boosts, so UMD can be a good use for them since the skill is so mind-bogglingly powerful.

Chronos
2008-02-22, 09:08 PM
Familiars use the master's skill ranks if they're higher than the familiar's own. Wizard spends skill points maxing out UMD cross-class. Wizard's familiar can now UMD.Or you can make it easier on yourself, and take a few levels of Loremaster. 4+Int skill points per level, plus possibly a bonus four points at the first level, and UMD is a class skill.

Another possibility is if you have a bunch of good buff spells. There's a character I'm working on in another thread, who has spells he can persist which give him +24 Strength, DR/evil and adamantine, and a few other goodies. So I'm going to give him a cat familiar, and share all of those persisted buffs.

LibraryOgre
2008-02-22, 10:23 PM
My interpretation has also been to allow familiars to use spell trigger items, provided they can hold the things.

TheThan
2008-02-22, 10:30 PM
I think part of the problem with familiars is that they come off as weak when compared to animal companions. A druid’s animal companion is a much more powerful melee combatant. Particularly if they took a wolf, they essentially get to trip things for free (if they hit). Druids even get spells that make their animal companion better such as magic fang (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicFang.htm), and animal growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm). These are two core spells that make an animal companion much better. The wizard doesn’t get any spells that specifically enhance their familiar’s abilities in the core rules. You have to go to splat books to find them. also a druid doesn’t loose xp for getting his animal companion killed.

Chronos
2008-02-23, 01:37 AM
I think part of the problem with familiars is that they come off as weak when compared to animal companions.Well, animal companions are stronger, but familiars are smarter. I think a lot of players overlook that, since many games are heavily combat-biased, and if you're not casting spells, then stronger is usually better than smarter, in the midst of battle. But when you're not in battle, or even when you're determining the terms of a battle, I'll take smarter any day.

Hyrael
2008-02-23, 02:22 AM
I always use my familiars, either as characters in their own right or simple combat tech. From one rogue/sorceror's Wacky fruit-bat to a stoic Karrnathi wizard's upbeat macaw, they're great fun.

Improved Familiar and an open-minded DM gives you lots of options. once you hit a certain level, pretty much any animal or magical beast of medium size or smaller is in. My Devil-Binder sorceror's Celestial Goana named Jub-jub has served him well for many levels. Imbue Familiar is very, very great. think of the interactions with simple personal buff spells like resist Energy, True Strike, and so on. At high levels, actions are a precious commodity, and casters have a whole slew of low-level spells that can turn a battle, but simply cant afford the time to cast them. simple things like Benign Transposition can mean the difference between life and death.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-24, 04:04 PM
Here's a question, when you take Improved Familiar it says you need to be of a certain level to take the particular familiars listed, but when you take them does it work like a better animal companion (ie you take an effective level hit of however many level it took to get access to the funky new beastie -1) or do you still treat your Level 12 wizard with a lantern archon say, as a level twelve master for applying the benefits of the "familiar" template?

Edit: Question 2, If I have a Wizard that PrCs and takes the Obtain Familiar feat of Complete Arcane do I A.) Treat him as a full wizard according to his Class level in his arcane casting class (significantly higher than his wizard level) for the purposes of his familiars benefits B.) Give him a second familiar at his Class level?

Indon
2008-02-24, 04:20 PM
Doesn't awakening just give them an Int score above 2? because familiars already have that. I think by level 10 or so they have 10-11 intelligence already.

I don't think normal familiars can take class levels. Awakened animals can, though obviously allowing it to be a Leadership cohort and gain levels that way while still being a familiar is a DM ruling.

marjan
2008-02-24, 04:25 PM
Here's a question, when you take Improved Familiar it says you need to be of a certain level to take the particular familiars listed, but when you take them does it work like a better animal companion (ie you take an effective level hit of however many level it took to get access to the funky new beastie -1) or do you still treat your Level 12 wizard with a lantern archon say, as a level twelve master for applying the benefits of the "familiar" template?


I don't think you do (nowhere in the rules it says that you do or don't). In any case they do not depend on master's level as animal companions do and their racial HD usually doesn't mean much as in the case of animal companion.

On topic: I have an Unseen Seer right now with Lantern Archon as familiar (via Planar Familiar feat) and his rays combined with Hunter's Eye can do pretty nasty dmg for a floating ball and it overcomes any dmg reduction.

Also remember that your familiar can use aid another action to boost your skill checks by 2. Use it combination with Share Talents and you get another +2 to your skill checks for any skill in which you have ranks.

So at the cost of one or two feats you get all that plus constant Magic Circle Against Evil, at will Continual Flame, Aid, Detect Evil and Familiar Only, it has Tongues on it constantly and Aura Of Menace (with low DC but still a save your enemies have to make).

So familiars are great tool if you know how to use them.



Edit: Question 2, If I have a Wizard that PrCs and takes the Obtain Familiar feat of Complete Arcane do I A.) Treat him as a full wizard according to his Class level in his arcane casting class (significantly higher than his wizard level) for the purposes of his familiars benefits B.) Give him a second familiar at his Class level?

Don't know answer to this, but would like to know it.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-24, 04:38 PM
Next couple of questions,

1.) Are Liches immune to the Dismiss or die rule of losing familiars? They get to be immune to Fort saves that don't affect objects don't they?

2.) What happens to a familiar whos master dies? Becoming a familiar changes its type to magical beast and although there are rules for what happens to the MASTER if the pet dies there isn't squat on what happens to the minion.

3.) Given they have Ints of over 3 does that mean they are viable candidates for class levels? Given that they're bound to obey their master and they're tiny little animals with no opposable thumbs I don't think they rate a LA no-matter how high their master is presupposing their master is liable to run into CR appropriate antagonists (CR appropriate for him not for an over educated meercat!)

4.) What happens to the familiar when their master dies and is then raised? What happens to the master? Do they count as having severed the bond? Do they need to take anouther save or lose more xp? Does the familiar bond go into "suspended animation" for the duration of the death and instantly reawaken when the mage raises (easiest but rubbish from both a fluff and a mechanical stand point). Does the Mage get to call anouther familiar when they come back? Does the past familiar care/resent the new best friend?

DementedFellow
2008-02-24, 05:53 PM
I can only answer the first question with any degree of certainty. Yes, liches are subject to the hit of XP when a familiar dies. I believe it is in Libris Mortis where they talk about a lich who decides not to have a familiar because he sees it more as a liability than a benefit.

So just assuming that a lich sees something as a liability, I would assume that liches are susceptible to the XP damage.

Baron Malkar
2008-02-24, 10:20 PM
Aquire familiar would allow you to add all arcane spellcasting levels regardless of class together to determine your familiars abilitys. You canot have two familiars at the same time ever. It is discribed in the familiar sidebar in the PHB.

Enguhl
2008-02-24, 10:24 PM
Familiars aren't necessarily good in battle, but they have countless other uses.

holywhippet
2008-02-24, 10:28 PM
That's nothing. Even at 20th level, in the worst case scenario, that's 4000 XP. You can burn more than that casting a single spell. The real penalty to losing your familiar is that you then can't summon a new one for another year, which is a long time to go without.

If it is dismissed (presumably only if it's an outsider) then you are without one for a year. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead though and doesn't take a constitution hit from doing so. I don't think you can get your XP back though.

Hmm, would this trick work? Kill a wizards familiar, raise it, then kill it again etc. Do this enough times and the wizard should start losing levels.

Collin152
2008-02-24, 10:30 PM
If it is dismissed (presumably only if it's an outsider) then you are without one for a year. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead though and doesn't take a constitution hit from doing so. I don't think you can get your XP back though.

Hmm, would this trick work? Kill a wizards familiar, raise it, then kill it again etc. Do this enough times and the wizard should start losing levels.

I doubt the familiar would let you keep doing that.
It has a choice in the matter, you know.

Leewei
2008-02-24, 11:42 PM
A friend of mine playing a Hexblade pointed out something nifty. Mettle can negate the XP hit from a dead familiar.

TempusCCK
2008-02-24, 11:59 PM
Heh, even so, as a small creature, most familiars are just useful as hell even without the ability to cast extra spells.

My Druid has a wardog animal companion and a squirrel "familiar" named Radaghast. He doesn't do much, but being an innocuous squirrel in the middle of a big forest has some information gathering value.

Collin152
2008-02-25, 12:14 AM
Familiars make great spys, provided there are local fauna of the same variety. Even then, most people aren't birdwatchers and wouldn't notice.

Squidmaster
2008-02-25, 12:21 AM
Familiars sound like a great concept with a lot of uses, but I've only ever seen people not use them. Mostly because they are forgoten imeaditaly after selection.

TheOOB
2008-02-25, 12:27 AM
Anyone who says familiars are useless hasn't had a wizard on their team who makes good use of them, either that, or their DM is a jerk who likes to target familiars for no reason (why the hell did you shoot my raven, there must have been a thousand ravens crossing by today.) even in combat, as long as you don't put your familiar in danger, the enemy really has no reason to target them. Who am I going to attack, one of those four armed and dangerous adventurers running twords me, or the cat running away to the corner. Now if you start having your familiar make attacks or aid another actions, someone might just take a swing at it, which is bad.

A familiar can spy on your enemies, scout the path ahead, sneak into places you are too big for, fetch small objects, alert you to intruders, and much, much more, and thats without using all the spells that make familiars awesome.

ForzaFiori
2008-02-25, 06:50 AM
If it is dismissed (presumably only if it's an outsider) then you are without one for a year. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead though and doesn't take a constitution hit from doing so. I don't think you can get your XP back though.

Hmm, would this trick work? Kill a wizards familiar, raise it, then kill it again etc. Do this enough times and the wizard should start losing levels.

sounds like it would work, but you would have to be as evil as belkar to kill a small furry animal that many times

Talic
2008-02-25, 06:59 AM
Anyone who says familiars are useless hasn't had a wizard on their team who makes good use of them, either that, or their DM is a jerk who likes to target familiars for no reason (why the hell did you shoot my raven, there must have been a thousand ravens crossing by today.) even in combat, as long as you don't put your familiar in danger, the enemy really has no reason to target them. Who am I going to attack, one of those four armed and dangerous adventurers running twords me, or the cat running away to the corner. Now if you start having your familiar make attacks or aid another actions, someone might just take a swing at it, which is bad.

A familiar can spy on your enemies, scout the path ahead, sneak into places you are too big for, fetch small objects, alert you to intruders, and much, much more, and thats without using all the spells that make familiars awesome.

Yes. A familiar can get eaten by a wolf while it scouts ahead, killed as a pest when found somewhere it shouldn't be, get killed when someone notices the ferret's going for the jail key, get shot when it lets out a loud squack for intruders, and die in many many ways...

ESPECIALLY when you realize that when many wizards have familiars, it's something to lok for if you see someone twiddling their fingers at you. It's not some arcane secret known only to the PC's. Something so common should be a DC 10 knowledge check, which means that the average person would know it.

Sir_Leorik
2008-02-25, 10:53 AM
My Sorcerer's familiar once saved a party from a TPK. The party was fighting some tiny creature able to paralyze the entire party if they failed a Fort save. (I don't remember the creature, only that it appears in MMII). Everyone in the party failed their saves, and the DM was about to declare a TPK, when I asked if my viper got a save. He saved, and proceeded to fight the creatures. He poisoned two of them, and held his own until the party's BDF recovered from paralysis and killed the things. Familiars are definitely not useless. Just remember to keep them safe from harm, and don't forget they are there ( :vaarsuvius: )

PersonofJid
2008-02-25, 12:33 PM
Familiars useless? Lies and slander! Familiars are far from useless. As already mentioned it depends on how they are used, and also what they are and what their abilities are.

I'm reminded of a campaign I ran once where the party wizard had an Imp as a familiar. Invisibility at will kept it from being seen on scouting missions, hiding and then polymorphing kept it safe in case it was seen, and telepathy within 100ft (coupled with a helm of telepathy I gave to the party rogue/assassin earlier) meant instant party coordination without having to actually speak! Then with DR (5?)/good and silver, fast healing 2, and the fact that it used equipment and magic items meant that this familiar was not going to go down easily.

...I hated that little thing. He was awesome, I admit, but I still hated him.

Triaxx
2008-02-25, 09:09 PM
Useless? Not at all. I usually play Sorceror's, and always select a flying familiar. A hawk if I'll be outdoors for most of the campaign, an owl if I'm inside. Unless of course I manage to sweet talk the DM into a celestial Owl.

But in all seriousness, a flying familiar's ability to scout ahead under an invisibility spell is priceless. If they notice the invisible bird flying around, I usually make the DM's life a living nightmare until A) my familiar is raised, or B) he waves the one year restriction. No one says a scouting familiar even has to be near a wolf. The ground bound familiars are mostly prey animals, so they'd see the wolf before he managed to get close, simply because they're intelligent, as well as actively looking around, which means constant passive search checks, and frequent active ones.\

Not to mention that if you're scouting with your familiar, it should likely be under the effects of Expeditious Retreat anyway.

Idea Man
2008-02-25, 11:03 PM
I swear, if my familiar ever gets that close to a wolf, I'm going to cast a benign transposition spell. It's MY job to get eaten by the wolf! :smallbiggrin:

(I have an unnatural occurance of death by wolves in this game. All my characters have wolf-phobia until at least 5th level, dire wolf--phobia until 9th, and there is never a level high enough for werewolves. :smalltongue: )

Good to know that familiars are still beloved of the general public. My players avoid them like the plague. I'll have to play a spellcaster next time I get the chance... if my players ever unlock these chains. :smallbiggrin: