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View Full Version : Are spellthieves underpowered or just right?



Frosty
2008-02-22, 06:48 PM
I looked at the class and I like a lot of the concepts, but I'm not sure how useful they are without magical enemies to steal spells from. A spellthief/Hellbreaker might be fun to play.

Zincorium
2008-02-22, 07:05 PM
Spellthieves don't really have a problem balance-wise, but from what I've seen they're a bit difficult to play in most games. The problem is that unless you're routinely fighting spellcasters of some variety, your abilities are limited. Your mileage on this may vary, but friendly spellcasters are unlikely to let you steal spells from them, as they are probably already hurting for spells per day.

Chronos
2008-02-22, 09:17 PM
Spellthieves are one of the classes I would ban from a game for being too overpowered. They can do almost everything rogues can do, just as well, and they also have nifty magical abilities? That just makes rogues completely redundant.


Your mileage on this may vary, but friendly spellcasters are unlikely to let you steal spells from them, as they are probably already hurting for spells per day.The biggest limitation is almost always actions, not spell slots. Besides, a spell borrowed by a spellthief isn't lost, it'll just get cast by someone else instead of you. So instead of you casting one of your high-level spells in the first round, and then casting another one in the second round, now you and the spellthief are each casting one of your spells in the first round. Plus there's always the possibility of stealing low-level spells like Acid Splash, which the spellthief can use much more effectively than the wizard.

Kurald Galain
2008-02-22, 09:45 PM
Spellthieves are one of the classes I would likely ban from my games on grounds that magic doesn't work that way. Frankly I find the concept of "stealing not just spells, but also magical abilities" rather silly.

Whether it's overpowered or not depends on (1) what else is in the group, and (2) how often the party will fight enemy casters (because if you're only going to steal spells from the wizard, you're better off playing a wizard).

Aquillion
2008-02-22, 10:28 PM
Hey. Can I play a spellthief, capture an enemy sorcerer, cut off all their limbs and gouge out their eyes and cut off their tongue, then drag them around so I can steal spells from them every day? Can I have an entire wagon of gimpy-sorcerers to steal spells from? For the more squeamish among you, I could Polymorph Any Object them into something with no senses, speaking ability, or limbs.

Just curious.

(Wait, what do you mean that isn't something my Good character would do? They're probably evil-aligned sorcerers anyway!)

Xyk
2008-02-22, 11:51 PM
Hey. Can I play a spellthief, capture an enemy sorcerer, cut off all their limbs and gouge out their eyes and cut off their tongue, then drag them around so I can steal spells from them every day? Can I have an entire wagon of gimpy-sorcerers to steal spells from? For the more squeamish among you, I could Polymorph Any Object them into something with no senses, speaking ability, or limbs.

Just curious.

(Wait, what do you mean that isn't something my Good character would do? They're probably evil-aligned sorcerers anyway!)

How do you think of these things? I think they may die if that happened. (the sorcs I mean).

bugsysservant
2008-02-23, 12:03 AM
Hey. Can I play a spellthief, capture an enemy sorcerer, cut off all their limbs and gouge out their eyes and cut off their tongue, then drag them around so I can steal spells from them every day? Can I have an entire wagon of gimpy-sorcerers to steal spells from? For the more squeamish among you, I could Polymorph Any Object them into something with no senses, speaking ability, or limbs.

Just curious.

(Wait, what do you mean that isn't something my Good character would do? They're probably evil-aligned sorcerers anyway!)

Um, I think that they have to prepare them. Conceivably you could dominate them and steal their spells, but if they're already dominated just order them to cast the spell you want.

EvilElitest
2008-02-23, 12:17 AM
Hey. Can I play a spellthief, capture an enemy sorcerer, cut off all their limbs and gouge out their eyes and cut off their tongue, then drag them around so I can steal spells from them every day? Can I have an entire wagon of gimpy-sorcerers to steal spells from? For the more squeamish among you, I could Polymorph Any Object them into something with no senses, speaking ability, or limbs.

Just curious.

(Wait, what do you mean that isn't something my Good character would do? They're probably evil-aligned sorcerers anyway!)

Well i have my next villain concept, he will wear the dude on his back
from
EE

Chronos
2008-02-23, 01:09 AM
Um, I think that they have to prepare them.Not quite, since they're sorcerers. But they do need to rest to regain their spell slots, and what you propose doesn't sound very restful. I would imagine, too, that even if you force them under Sleep spells, that a sorcerer could voluntarily choose to not replenish spells.

Rutee
2008-02-23, 01:29 AM
Hey. Can I play a spellthief, capture an enemy sorcerer, cut off all their limbs and gouge out their eyes and cut off their tongue, then drag them around so I can steal spells from them every day? Can I have an entire wagon of gimpy-sorcerers to steal spells from? For the more squeamish among you, I could Polymorph Any Object them into something with no senses, speaking ability, or limbs.
If you polymorphed them into something senseless, you may have exceptional difficulty Sneak Attacking them. Wouldn't that just be constructs?

Sornas
2008-02-23, 02:00 AM
If you polymorphed them into something senseless, you may have exceptional difficulty Sneak Attacking them. Wouldn't that just be constructs?

But isn't helpless considered "Willing" for these sorts of effects?

Edit- Wait, I see your point, nevermind o.o; I suppose you could argue that.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-02-23, 04:03 AM
Not quite, since they're sorcerers. But they do need to rest to regain their spell slots, and what you propose doesn't sound very restful. I would imagine, too, that even if you force them under Sleep spells, that a sorcerer could voluntarily choose to not replenish spells.

More then that, Sorcerer's must, in order to regain spells, voluntarily undergo the act of concentrating on their spells. Good luck forcing them to do that without compulsion magic (Though I guess if one of them knows Dominate you can use that to Dominate him and all the others.)

Zenos
2008-02-23, 05:25 AM
More then that, Sorcerer's must, in order to regain spells, voluntarily undergo the act of concentrating on their spells. Good luck forcing them to do that without compulsion magic (Though I guess if one of them knows Dominate you can use that to Dominate him and all the others.)

I just got an idea for a spellthief BBEG who used an orb with the souls of trapped sorcerers in it to fuel his spellcasting, of course, it guess it would be a terribly expensive item since it would trap the souls and dominate them into preparing spells for him to use, but ah well.

And Dominating Sorcerers, I wouldn't think of them as types who would do that thing :smallsmile:

Kizara
2008-02-23, 05:30 AM
I am wondering if anyone had anything further that was meaningful to add to the discussion if the class is balanced, not talking about 'sorceror food pods'.

Personally, I feel that the class is somewhat overpowered, but then my tolerance for class power in this sort of thing is fairly low. I don't use ToB classes ethier. Also, I have never played one, so its hard for me to tell.

Thus, I would be interested in other's opinions of the class.


On a side note, keeping some kind of spellcasting creature (such as an imp) in a cage and using that to help fuel might help matters.

Zenos
2008-02-23, 05:47 AM
It all depends on the circumstances. If the Spellthief has spellcasters to feed his abilities he is powerful.
And I have to agree that it supplants the rogue's abilities, so maybe slightly overpowered.

Riffington
2008-02-23, 10:43 AM
I'm not sure how they're overpowered.
Stealing spells from your friends is neat and all, but it's rarely actually powerful.
Stealing spells from your enemies... well, you have to actually hit with a sneak attack. If you can do that, would you rather steal a Hold Person or get some extra sneak attack dice and just kill him? And most of your sneak attacks probably won't be against spellcasters.
Where spellthieves really come into their own is when there's spellcasters you want to do rob/decieve, but not kill. Darwin smiles upon this sort of activity, however.

Riffington
2008-02-23, 10:50 AM
More then that, Sorcerer's must, in order to regain spells, voluntarily undergo the act of concentrating on their spells. Good luck forcing them to do that without compulsion magic

Capturing sorcerers to fuel your spells is both evil and foolhardy no matter how you do it. However, it's not that hard to get them to replenish their spells on a daily basis. Just take a few ranks in Perform (torture) or Craft (pain).

Overlard
2008-02-23, 11:00 AM
Spellthieves are one of the classes I would ban from a game for being too overpowered. They can do almost everything rogues can do, just as well, and they also have nifty magical abilities? That just makes rogues completely redundant.
Not really. They're almost entirely dependent on enemy spellcasters for their power, and have fewer skills, are more MAD than rogues, and have a tiny fraction of the sneak attack damage too.

There's definitely some crossover between the classes (stealth and trapfinding primarily), but after that, they don't serve the same purpose.

If your party is expecting a rogue, and a spellthief turns up, they're more likely to be disappointed with what they've lost than impressed with what they've gained.

namo
2008-02-23, 01:06 PM
It's easy for a caster to become immune to sneak attack (Blur, Darkness, Blink...) - so the spellthief's abilities keyed to it are certainly not overpowered.

I've yet to see a broken spellthief build (Fax had some decent builds but a lot of the power came from the other classes he gained extra attacks from IIRC).